And that, my good fellow, is what Freedom calls unrealistic expectations…
Then why is she here?
Why is Oda so against having competent and badass swordswomen? Kuina died from falling down a flight of stairs for crying out loud! Can you imagine Zoro or Mihawk dying from that shit?
"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lelouch vs Schneizel, Code Geass
Then why is she here?
Why is Oda so against having competent and badass swordswomen? Kuina died from falling down a flight of stairs for crying out loud! Can you imagine Zoro or Mihawk dying from that shit?
Well, if only she was a pirate.
But a marine? No helping it.
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Well, he could have showed up in the post Enies Lobby arc, but I don't see what the point would have been. There was no room for him cause we already had the festivities, Garp showing up and revealing all his crazy stuff, and them eventually evading the Marines. I doubt Smoker being there would have changed anything, they'd have just avoided him too and we'd be talking about how pointless his inclusion was for that part.
After that, I don't see how Oda would have fit him in on Thriller Bark. I can see how Smoker could show up at Sabaody, but there's a problem here too. The main thing that happened was the Supernovas were introduced, and Kizaru finally shows up. While this does seem a good a place as any to have Smoker show up, I think there's a similar thing going on here like Water 7. We needed to see Luffy get his ass handed to him by opponents we'd never seen before, since they represented the dangers moving forward. Smoker was always a danger from the past, but he was constantly playing this cat and mouse game with them. Luffy struggling against Smoker instead of Sentomarou wouldn't have felt right. Sabaody was all about setting up Luffy's current rivals (the supernovas), and really how outclassed he was by the Marines. I think putting Smoker in here wouldn't have worked for that, though, even if he is a danger to Luffy.
So besides that there's really only Impel Down left, cause he sure wasn't going to show up on Amazon Lily. I don't see how Oda could have worked him here either, but it does make sense for Smoker to be on Marineford due to the crazy stuff that would have happened. My problem is, I don't see where Oda could have thrown Smoker into without it seeming utterly pointless. He would have felt like a tacked on element as opposed to an essential part of that arc. In all of those arcs, there were other things going on, big things, that prevented any outside characters from interrupting. A lot of big reveals and moments, and lots of build up of Luffy's opponents in the very near future being too much for him to handle.
I mean even on Marineford Luffy couldn't even handle Smoker, since he didn't have haki. If Hancock hadn't intervened Smoker was definitely on the upper hand in their brief fight. For me, it was enough to see him there, to see that Smoker had grown. One thing is, if you put him in any post EL arcs up until Marineford, his inclusion can't do anything aside from giving Luffy some trouble, and Luffy eventually evading him. Especially since Luffy couldn't even touch Smoker. That would get old. Fast. So I think it makes sense he showed up at Marineford, where him being antagonistic toward Luffy actually makes sense considering the fight, and where it's okay that Luffy can't do jack shit against him because he couldn't really do jack shit against anyone there.
So basicaly character is written in the way that makes utilizing him more the a little bit impossible.
And you people wonder why I'm convinced that he won't show up until the final arc…
Then why is she here?
Why is Oda so against having competent and badass swordswomen? Kuina died from falling down a flight of stairs for crying out loud! Can you imagine Zoro or Mihawk dying from that shit?
Tashigi being utterly useless is part of her character though. It's even in her name, Tashigi is a "flightless bird" which symbolizes her character perfectly. I mean I do expect her to get development later on, but still. She's even a sore loser when she loses, it's great.
Also, what else would have Kuina died for? The difference between Kuina and Tashigi is that Tashigi never sees her sex as detrimental to her cause. Kuina had to die somehow, and it couldn't have been by any other person since it would have given Zoro a figurehead to go after for revenge. It's why Nami's backstory is so effective cause it was the first one that did that. So the only real thing is to have her fall down some stairs. There's actually some weight to the fact that Kuina died out of something that was out of everyone's control, an incident of nature, as opposed to her sex or due to someone's interference.
So basicaly character is written in the way that makes utilizing him more the a little bit impossible.
And you people wonder why I'm convinced that he won't show up until the final arc…
Do you know what even Smoker's point is in the story? Why he was even introduced? Smoker was introuced as the very first competent Marine. We hadn't seen any marines up until now actually able to do something. More than that, he was an opponent that Luffy couldn't have possibly hoped to defeat. With Crocodile, and later Enel, Luffy was able to take advantages out of inherent weaknesses of their fruits. With Smoker? What can you do? You can't do anything with his fruit that would give Luffy the upper hand, short of using Kairouseki.
We're talking about a guy, that after beating Rob Lucci, after having Gear 2nd and 3rd in his arsenal, that Luffy couldn't even touch. What could Oda have done? Smoker was made from the beginning to be an enemy Luffy had no hope of winning against, he would have captured him right then and there on Loguetown if not for Dragon's interference. In fact Smoker's mere appearance in the story could cause serious panic since he'd basically be able to catch Luffy without any issues whatsoever, just cause of his fruit.
But now Luffy can hit him. This changes everything because now they're on the same playing field, there's no innate advantages anymore for either of them. Smoker's not an enemy anymore that Luffy has no hope of ever defeating. Now that Smoker knows that, now that the impassable wall has been demolished, Smoker has no choice but to up his game. He has no choice but to really go all out to get Luffy. Basically, it makes sense why we barely saw Smoker before Marineford. Now? There's no excuse. Smoker was always a little arrogant, but I think he had become a little complacent, I think, because of his fruit. This is partly because he was able to round up weak ass pirates left and right before. Now that that barrier is gone, I can honestly see him being in far more arcs now. It's not just Smoker showing up and now Luffy has to run for the hills anymore. Plus, I stand by what I said earlier, where would you have fit him into any arc post Enies Lobby?
But now Luffy can hit him. This changes everything because now they're on the same playing field, there's no innate advantages anymore for either of them. Smoker's not an enemy anymore that Luffy has no hope of ever defeating. Now that Smoker knows that, now that the impassable wall has been demolished, Smoker has no choice but to up his game. He has no choice but to really go all out to get Luffy. Basically, it makes sense why we barely saw Smoker before Marineford. Now? There's no excuse. Smoker was always a little arrogant, but I think he had become a little complacent, I think, because of his fruit. This is partly because he was able to round up weak ass pirates left and right before. Now that that barrier is gone, I can honestly see him being in far more arcs now. It's not just Smoker showing up and now Luffy has to run for the hills anymore. Plus, I stand by what I said earlier, where would you have fit him into any arc post Enies Lobby?
Only we cannot really see Smoker be beaten by Luffy, can we not?
And Smoker failed to deal with Law, failed to deal with Vergo, failed to even land a blow on Doflamingo. Buying him and Luffy going completly toe-to-toe has incredibly difficult, especially since we will see Luffy defeating Doflamingo this arc.
And there is now way of getting Smoker into any of those arcs and actually do anything, because of how the story is written. As simple as that.
It's why I don't see Smoker to be a rival anymore either. Besides with Coby, Kidd and Blackbeard, Luffy will have plenty of rivals still.
That's hillarious, you giving him credit for something even he himself didn't want to take credit for.
It was still relevant to the plot and had him promoted.
I'm not giving him credit for actually defeating Crocodile.
It would be better to make Smoker part of one those arcs. Like Water 7.
We already had our first revealed admiral inextricably bound to that arc, as well as WG concepts like the Cipher Pols and Buster call being introduced. Then we had 5 vice admirals brought into play as well.
If you'd said maybe involving him in an arc like Thriller Bark, which had zero Marine interaction then it would have made more sense.
But regardless. Not counting his introducing arc. One appearence at the beggining of first half of Grand Line, one appearence at the end.
How did you reach a conclusion that something completly different will happen now?
Gaps between appearances really don't matter though.
Look at Shanks, I don't see the huge gaps between his appearances taking a toll on his relevance to the story, do you?
Also, Smoker is most likely going to be deeply involved in a divide between 2 factions within the WG toward the end of the story.
There'll be plenty of things shown to foreshadow that and keep him towards the forefront of that storyline.
Not to mention that every relevant marine had more screen time during marineford then Smoker. I'm pretty sure Helmeppo had more screen time then Smoker during that arc.
If you mean the absolute top brass and Coby, then yeah, they had more screentime than Smoker.
Which considering the fact that the former were the main antagonists of the arc, and the latter had an instrumental role in the end of the war, is understandable.
I'm pretty sure that Helmeppo did not have more screentime than Smoker during MF.
Involved? Okay, I'll give you that. Affecting? Yes, but at the same time it is made abundantly clear that they need pirates to accomplish anything positive, and they are quite incompetent at accomplishing their own goals, Akainu excluded.
They've only ever been "incompetent" as such because of plot armour. Like Kizaru absolutely slaughtering a number of Supernovas but then being forced away to confront the SH's and such.
Could've been done by flamingo and a random grunt, if Alabasta is anything to go by. Fujitora was completly unneeded in the whole process.
Considering that Traffy was seemingly able to keep them occupied for some time with both Fuji and Doffy there, I doubt this is true. Well, Doffy would have brought him down eventually, but to the major detriment of what was happening in terms of the factory destruction and such ie the goal Law was trying to achieve.
Not to mention that Law escaped immediatly afterwards, with Fujitora being completly unable to stop him.
Law's powers are ridiculously broken in the right conditions, this doesn't detriment Fuji one bit.
Could've been a throwaway line during short scene of him arresting Doflamingo, and nothing would change.
And you were talking about him being relevante to this arc, and not some events in the future.
Yet somehow the intense one on one interaction between him and a Warlord acting outside of his remit behind the scenes just seemed to give a bit more punch to the whole situation.
Something that stands contrary to his goals, and to everything he was shown to be beforehand. Altough I admit, law officer taking the side of mass murderer is certainly new approach to justice.
His goal is seemingly to abolish the position of Shichibukai. He already pointed out that acting as he "should" would just lead to another Shichibukai being appointed, ala Crocodile -> Teach.
So in essence, not contrary to his goals at all.
Fight that nothing will come out off, except for both of them being busy while Doflamingo is defeated by Luffy. And it is the first time I saw an obvious off-paneling of character being shown as them being relevante.
Ok, so you say that nothing will come of the fighting but you want to see it on panel? What would be the point?
This is the only way to keep both Fuji and Sabo seeming like legitimate threats without them overpowering the rest of the plot.
They both have relevance to the plot of the arc but if they're allowed to run free then they'd just be running into plot armour at every turn.
I really don't see what you'd see as a better option in this instance (Fuji defeating Sabo is NOT a better option before you say it).
Yes, because at the time of this writing, Dellinger had more actions with lasting consequences then Fujitora did.
Yep, knocking out a few arena combatants really matters in the grand scheme of things, compared to the effect Fuji has had on this arc, and in terms of setting up future developments.
Bloody hell.
Only we cannot really see Smoker be beaten by Luffy, can we not?
And Smoker failed to deal with Law, failed to deal with Vergo, failed to even land a blow on Doflamingo. Buying him and Luffy going completly toe-to-toe has incredibly difficult, especially since we will see Luffy defeating Doflamingo this arc.
And there is now way of getting Smoker into any of those arcs and actually do anything, because of how the story is written. As simple as that.
I disagree with that. Smoker was a little arrogant and conceited. I think part of his Vergo fight was that element of Vergo telling him he's relying too much on his fruit. Plus, we don't need to get into PH it's already been discussed to hell and back. The only defeat of his that gets to me is Doffy's, I don't mind his to Law or to Vergo.
So there's a gap now between Luffy and Smoker, an inverse of the gap there was before between Smoker and Luffy. Smoker has no choice now but to catch up. Plus, there's another element going on here. Smoker was gunning for the New World just to go after Luffy, but did he really know what he was getting himself into? Luffy was going to go to the New World despite being not nearly strong enough for it, until Rayleigh snapped him out of that mentality. I'm not saying Smoker is weak, but he may have gone into the New World a little too hastily just to go after Luffy. He's sort of seen now what the New World can do, so if he wants to survive he's going to have to power up. In order for that power up to be believable we're going to have to see him more often. It would hurt if we saw him, 6 arcs down the line, suddenly powered up to really strong in not that long of a period of time. But, if he shows up in a few more arcs, with that power up sort of staggered across each one, it starts to make more sense. It starts to give him an element of progression instead of just giving him a massive powerup near the end.
Smoker has an arc to him. He started off powerful, untouchable, up until Marineford. Now the tables have turned. When he wanted to catch Luffy before, there was believability to it. You could tell this guy could pull it off. That isn't the case anymore, so for him to be taken seriously as a character he has to get back that aspect of danger to his presence. I don't think it's, in the long term, a bad thing for Smoker to have been treated the way he has. In the short term, absolutely. I don't think it would have added to his character to have him show up at Punk Hazard, super powerful, because it would just be the same way he's always been before. This way, it gives him the opportunity to evolve a bit more as a character, and it's a perfect way to get him more invested in the events of the story, not less. Even Tashigi.
But that's just how I interpret the events, and I could be wrong.
I disagree with that. Smoker was a little arrogant and conceited. I think part of his Vergo fight was that element of Vergo telling him he's relying too much on his fruit. Plus, we don't need to get into PH it's already been discussed to hell and back. The only defeat of his that gets to me is Doffy's, I don't mind his to Law or to Vergo.
So there's a gap now between Luffy and Smoker, an inverse of the gap there was before between Smoker and Luffy. Smoker has no choice now but to catch up. Plus, there's another element going on here. Smoker was gunning for the New World just to go after Luffy, but did he really know what he was getting himself into? Luffy was going to go to the New World despite being not nearly strong enough for it, until Rayleigh snapped him out of that mentality. I'm not saying Smoker is weak, but he may have gone into the New World a little too hastily just to go after Luffy. He's sort of seen now what the New World can do, so if he wants to survive he's going to have to power up. In order for that power up to be believable we're going to have to see him more often. It would hurt if we saw him, 6 arcs down the line, suddenly powered up to really strong in not that long of a period of time. But, if he shows up in a few more arcs, with that power up sort of staggered across each one, it starts to make more sense. It starts to give him an element of progression instead of just giving him a massive powerup near the end.
Smoker has an arc to him. He started off powerful, untouchable, up until Marineford. Now the tables have turned. When he wanted to catch Luffy before, there was believability to it. You could tell this guy could pull it off. That isn't the case anymore, so for him to be taken seriously as a character he has to get back that aspect of danger to his presence. I don't think it's, in the long term, a bad thing for Smoker to have been treated the way he has. In the short term, absolutely. I don't think it would have added to his character to have him show up at Punk Hazard, super powerful, because it would just be the same way he's always been before. This way, it gives him the opportunity to evolve a bit more as a character, and it's a perfect way to get him more invested in the events of the story, not less. Even Tashigi.
But that's just how I interpret the events, and I could be wrong.
Yeah, that would be pretty sweet if it happened,
Btw, my betting on it not happening is the safest bet I've ever made.
I'm sorry, I've would be overjoyed if we saw that sort of character progression for Smoker, but it is simply not happening.
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It was still relevant to the plot and had him promoted.
I'm not giving him credit for actually defeating Crocodile.
It was hardly relevant to the plot. As was his promotion, since nothing came of it.
We already had our first revealed admiral inextricably bound to that arc, as well as WG concepts like the Cipher Pols and Buster call being introduced. Then we had 5 vice admirals brought into play as well.
If you'd said maybe involving him in an arc like Thriller Bark, which had zero Marine interaction then it would have made more sense.
I say involve him in anything.
I've honestly just brought Water 7 on whim.
Gaps between appearances really don't matter though.
Look at Shanks, I don't see the huge gaps between his appearances taking a toll on his relevance to the story, do you?
Also, Smoker is most likely going to be deeply involved in a divide between 2 factions within the WG toward the end of the story.
There'll be plenty of things shown to foreshadow that and keep him towards the forefront of that storyline.
Lots of optimism and wishful thinking is see in your words.
And all I have to say is: A lot of us thought Bastille was going to be somewhat relevant.
I've seen "It will all turn for the best, Darth, you see" line of argument since the end of PH. I'm sick of it. Especially since all those optimistic predictions you guys have do not pay off.
And gaps do matter, if you want to keep a character relevante to the storyline.
And at this point, even marines as a whole are hardly relevant, because of Oda's writing style, one of which should've been obvious since the beginning of the story.
If you mean the absolute top brass and Coby, then yeah, they had more screentime than Smoker.
Which considering the fact that the former were the main antagonists of the arc, and the latter had an instrumental role in the end of the war, is understandable.
I'm pretty sure that Helmeppo did not have more screentime than Smoker during MF.
Did he? I would have to check, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case.
They've only ever been "incompetent" as such because of plot armour. Like Kizaru absolutely slaughtering a number of Supernovas but then being forced away to confront the SH's and such.
I'm well aware. However, that doesn't change the facts. Like then one that evidently on Yonkou can take on institutions that were said to be equal to all four of them, because plot works in his way, constantly.
When your characters are not stupid, but you write as such to justify your storylines, you kill their credibility.
Considering that Traffy was seemingly able to keep them occupied for some time with both Fuji and Doffy there, I doubt this is true. Well, Doffy would have brought him down eventually, but to the major detriment of what was happening in terms of the factory destruction and such ie the goal Law was trying to achieve.
Not really, since Doflaming spend time he gained basicaly bragging about how evil and smart he is, and when that proved to be not the case, he went with Birdcage.
Law's powers are ridiculously broken in the right conditions, this doesn't detriment Fuji one bit.
Law's powers are as broken as Oda want's them too.
And Doflamingo was able to recapture Law effortlessly. Which does detriment Fuji. Quite a bit.
Yet somehow the intense one on one interaction between him and a Warlord acting outside of his remit behind the scenes just seemed to give a bit more punch to the whole situation.
Completly undermined by the fact that he is helping said Warlord right now.
I liked the scene at the time, because it seemed to point towards Fujitora having greater role in the arc, and confrontation between him and Doflamingo.
I was even stupid enough to think that since he stressed prioritazing civilians, he would protect them from him, imagin that.
We got complete opposite.
His goal is seemingly to abolish the position of Shichibukai. He already pointed out that acting as he "should" would just lead to another Shichibukai being appointed, ala Crocodile -> Teach.
So in essence, not contrary to his goals at all.
Daz asked this question before me.
But I will ask it again: How is what Fujitora is doing any better, and how it will speed up the destruction of Shichibukai system or stop new one from being appointed?
Ok, so you say that nothing will come of the fighting but you want to see it on panel? What would be the point?
This is the only way to keep both Fuji and Sabo seeming like legitimate threats without them overpowering the rest of the plot.
They both have relevance to the plot of the arc but if they're allowed to run free then they'd just be running into plot armour at every turn.
I really don't see what you'd see as a better option in this instance (Fuji defeating Sabo is NOT a better option before you say it).
I say that that fight should've never happened in the first place.
I say that the better option was Fujitora going after both Straw Hats and Doflamingo.
And plot-armor, honestly, is already happening, by miracoulous appearence of Sabo, because second in command of Revolutionary Army has nothing better to do, and can stall the Admirals.
This is what's going to happen with every opponent too powerful for Straw Hats to defeat at time. That, or just them joining them, one of the two.
What a wonderful way to kill the tension.
Yep, knocking out a few arena combatants really matters in the grand scheme of things, compared to the effect Fuji has had on this arc, and in terms of setting up future developments.
Bloody hell.
In the context of the arc, and not future events, which is what we are discussing right now?
Yes.
I disagree with that. Smoker was a little arrogant and conceited. I think part of his Vergo fight was that element of Vergo telling him he's relying too much on his fruit. Plus, we don't need to get into PH it's already been discussed to hell and back. The only defeat of his that gets to me is Doffy's, I don't mind his to Law or to Vergo.
It's worth pointing out that Smoker had already had his loss to Law, then his capture by Caesar, then had just lost to Vergo before Doflamingo even showed up. Even if he could have put up a good fight against Doflamingo at his best, he had taken a lot of punishment in short order just before then - he was in no shape to be fighting a monster like Doflamingo. We shouldn't be surprised that he went down pretty much instantly, given the circumstances.
I would also like to see Franky show off some more of his improvision mechanic skills like he did back in Thriller Bark when he was building a tower of stairs while they were running from Oz. That was really cool and I expected to see more of that, but it never came.
It's worth pointing out that Smoker had already had his loss to Law, then his capture by Caesar, then had just lost to Vergo before Doflamingo even showed up. Even if he could have put up a good fight against Doflamingo at his best, he had taken a lot of punishment in short order just before then - he was in no shape to be fighting a monster like Doflamingo. We shouldn't be surprised that he went down pretty much instantly, given the circumstances.
On the other hand, Luffy was almost killed twice, and still in prime condition to fight with Crocodile third time and win… :ninja:
On the other hand, Luffy was almost killed twice, and still in prime condition to fight with Crocodile third time and win… :ninja:
Sleeping is just that good. He did become more effective against Croc once he got poison, so merely being tired wouldn't be enough to stop him from kicking his ass.
Sleeping is just that good. He did become more effective against Croc once he got poison, so merely being tired wouldn't be enough to stop him from kicking his ass.
I know. And his has his main character status to boot. I was just being snarky.
After Luffy got ability to punch logias, Smoker's ability to be a treatning rival/pursuer plummeted. Like One Ring into Mount Doom.
Unless… nah. That won't happen.
On the other hand, Luffy was almost killed twice, and still in prime condition to fight with Crocodile third time and win… :ninja:
I don't really consider the two situations comparable. There was an indeterminate period between the first and second fights against Croc, but which was long enough to cross a large portion of a desert nation with a population of 10 million, during which Luffy got to rest and eat. Also, Crocodile mostly relied on his sand powers, and didn't really do any physical damage to Luffy in the first couple fights, except for the impaling at the end of the first fight (which, again, Luffy got to rest and recover after).
Smoker admittedly didn't take a physical beating from Law, and was merely suffocated by Caesar, but he didn't really have much opportunity to rest between those and his fight with Vergo, which is where he took a real beating. He did get to rest a bit afterwards, but as we've seen with Luffy, it takes characters a little while to recuperate from serious injuries inflicted by similarly strong (or stronger) characters.
I know. And his has his main character status to boot. I was just being snarky.
Noo excuses. Dude got his ass kicked by poisoned rookie because he could touch him. Still think he is the best villain of this manga.
After Luffy got ability to punch logias, Smoker's ability to be a treatning rival/pursuer plummeted. Like One Ring into Mount Doom.
Unless… nah. That won't happen.
I always thought I would be laughing and enjoying Smoker getting his ass once they could touch him. Didn't fail. Although I think taking the job of hyping Dofla. One Shichibukai-hype by arc should be enough. No need for extra hours.
Noo excuses. Dude got his ass kicked by poisoned rookie because he could touch him. Still think he is the best villain of this manga.
He gets my "Favorite Pirate Villain" award. That would belong to Teach, but he isn't good at his job enough to be treatning yet.
I always thought I would be laughing and enjoying Smoker getting his ass once they could touch him. Didn't fail. Although I think taking the job of hyping Dofla. One Shichibukai-hype by arc should be enough. No need for extra hours.
Three bloody times.
One would be enough. Hell, one was too many, considering it was Law…
He gets my "Favorite Pirate Villain" award. That would belong to Teach, but he isn't good at his job enough to be treatning yet.
Who would favorite villain be?Akainu?
Maybe Teach will get to be threatening next time we see him. I simply expect him to not be ridiculous.
Three bloody times.
One would be enough. Hell, one was too many, considering it was Law…
As a marine fan you should know VAs gets a special contract where hyping characters is one of their priorities. Especially Shichibukai.
LAw just got a better promotion. And between old baddass character with good reputation and newly appointed Shichibukai, I think he needed the hype to be taken seriously.
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But yeah, three time was too much. Must come from being Tashigi superior.
To be fair, he is kinda the reason Marineford happened.
Hmph… never said he was the worst villain ever. I simply like Croc a lot more.
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Who would favorite villain be?Akainu?
Maybe Teach will get to be threatening next time we see him. I simply expect him to not be ridiculous.
Yup. The only villain to singlehandedly end a life of character not in flashback. Awesome powers, and get's job done.
I love villains that are effective at their job. Mostly from which my love of Croc stems from.
Maybe Blackbeard will be threatnening… maybe. I got rid off all of my expectations around the time that Fujitora decided to still work with Doflamingo, while he slaughters the entire country with Birdcage.
Hmph… never said he was the worst villain ever. I simply like Croc a lot more.
And I don't like him at all.
Yup. The only villain to singlehandedly end a life of character not in flashback. Awesome powers, and get's job done.
I love villains that are effective at their job. Mostly from which my love of Croc stems from.
I like the guy. But Croc get bonus point from facing Luffy and being able to seems threatening until Luffy get power-up through poison. He faced the plot and survived it. And he had an awesome team.
Maybe Blackbeard will be threatnening… maybe. I got rid off all of my expectations around the time that Fujitora decided to still work with Doflamingo, while he slaughters the entire country with Birdcage.
Not everyone can survive the plot.
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Nope.
Btw, favorite villain nr. 2. Croc get's the bronze medal.
Croc is first for sure. Akainu second. And Magellan super close third.
I don't really consider the two situations comparable. There was an indeterminate period between the first and second fights against Croc, but which was long enough to cross a large portion of a desert nation with a population of 10 million, during which Luffy got to rest and eat. Also, Crocodile mostly relied on his sand powers, and didn't really do any physical damage to Luffy in the first couple fights, except for the impaling at the end of the first fight (which, again, Luffy got to rest and recover after).
Smoker admittedly didn't take a physical beating from Law, and was merely suffocated by Caesar, but he didn't really have much opportunity to rest between those and his fight with Vergo, which is where he took a real beating. He did get to rest a bit afterwards, but as we've seen with Luffy, it takes characters a little while to recuperate from serious injuries inflicted by similarly strong (or stronger) characters.
i like your pic. FLUFFY PANDA.
SO CUTE.
I want oda to show Strong World in the manga in flashback.
i like your pic. FLUFFY PANDA.
SO CUTE.
I want oda to show Strong World in the manga in flashback.
It's actually a Koala
On the other hand, Luffy was almost killed twice, and still in prime condition to fight with Crocodile third time and win… :ninja:
Croc just couldn't catch a break with Luffy. I don't blame him for getting overly frustrated at the end. If only that traitorous Miss All Sunday hadn't pulled Luffy from the quicksand.
It was hardly relevant to the plot. As was his promotion, since nothing came of it.
Smoker's going to be one of the top brass in the new marines after the Eos.
His rise through the ranks is extremely relevant.
I say involve him in anything.
I've honestly just brought Water 7 on whim.
That's just silly though, to say just involve him in anything.
Like I've just pointed out with Water 7.
It's probably the absolute worst example you could have picked actually.
Lots of optimism and wishful thinking is see in your words.
And all I have to say is: A lot of us thought Bastille was going to be somewhat relevant.
I've seen "It will all turn for the best, Darth, you see" line of argument since the end of PH. I'm sick of it. Especially since all those optimistic predictions you guys have do not pay off.
And gaps do matter, if you want to keep a character relevante to the storyline.
And at this point, even marines as a whole are hardly relevant, because of Oda's writing style, one of which should've been obvious since the beginning of the story.
We thought Bastille might do better than Maynard. That was about it.
We thought hmm senior vice admiral, he'll be not bad.
I don't think any really expected Bastille to have a major role.
Both Shanks and Blackbeard, two of the most important characters in the series have had large gaps between their appearances. Are you telling me that they aren't relevant to the plot? No, of course they are. Gaps don't matter unless you can't see the big picture.
Once again you seem to be misusing the word "relevant". The marines are still incredibly relevant to the story.
What you mean is that the marines are not WINNING. That's basically what it comes down to.
Did he? I would have to check, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case.
Until one of us actually counts the panels, let's drop this. Infinite loop.
I'm well aware. However, that doesn't change the facts. Like then one that evidently on Yonkou can take on institutions that were said to be equal to all four of them, because plot works in his way, constantly.
When your characters are not stupid, but you write as such to justify your storylines, you kill their credibility.
Whitebeard once competed with the strongest guy to ever live, had a massive fleet and allied crews to boot, that he attacked with all of, at once.
It's not exactly the norm.
Even at that, as your proud of pointing out, none of the admirals sustained any lasting damage, while one commander died, one was maimed, and the Yonko died.
You can't have it both ways.
Not really, since Doflaming spend time he gained basicaly bragging about how evil and smart he is, and when that proved to be not the case, he went with Birdcage.
The birdcage was an absolute last resort once the last 10 years of his work was in danger of being exposed. Until Sugar was knocked out, he had everything well under control. That probably wouldn't have been the case if Law had kept him occupied on Green Bit for longer.
Law's powers are as broken as Oda want's them too.
And Doflamingo was able to recapture Law effortlessly. Which does detriment Fuji. Quite a bit.
They're broken for everybody. Doffy was also unable to stop law escaping.
Until Law stopped to actually fight him, yet again to buy time.
You can't equate the two situations.
Completly undermined by the fact that he is helping said Warlord right now.
I liked the scene at the time, because it seemed to point towards Fujitora having greater role in the arc, and confrontation between him and Doflamingo.
I was even stupid enough to think that since he stressed prioritazing civilians, he would protect them from him, imagin that.
We got complete opposite.
Tbh, this is something that can be discredited by the arc not actually being over.
Fuji went pretty much from talking with Doffy straight to fighting Sabo, we haven't really seen his actions in regards to the citizens.
Daz asked this question before me.
But I will ask it again: How is what Fujitora is doing any better, and how it will speed up the destruction of Shichibukai system or stop new one from being appointed?
I'm assuming his thinking is that if he stopped the situation as it is, then it would all be hushed up and another Shichi appointed.
If he lets the situation escalate to the point were it couldn't possibly be covered up, he can cite it in his proposal to abolish the Shichi system entirely.
I say that that fight should've never happened in the first place.
I say that the better option was Fujitora going after both Straw Hats and Doflamingo.
And plot-armor, honestly, is already happening, by miracoulous appearence of Sabo, because second in command of Revolutionary Army has nothing better to do, and can stall the Admirals.
This is what's going to happen with every opponent too powerful for Straw Hats to defeat at time. That, or just them joining them, one of the two.
What a wonderful way to kill the tension.
Sabo appearing can be quite easily explained by Doffy's war mongering and armament of nearby kingdoms.
Either we have Fuji fighting Sabo and them cancelling each other out, so nobody loses or we have Fuji going after the SH's and Doffy and failing through some extremely contrived reason.
So yeah, fighting Sabo to stand still really is the best option.
It won't be long before the SH's will be taking on the strongest fighters in the world, just bear with it for a few more arcs.
In the context of the arc, and not future events, which is what we are discussing right now?
Yes.
Hmm, I've pointed out Fuji's effect on the arc, and it's a lot bigger than one shotting a few arena participants. Fuji isn't irrelevant just because he isn't being allowed to go on freakin' rampage.
_"_Now! This is it! Now is the time to choose! Die and be free of pain or live and fight your sorrow! Now is the time to shape your stories! Your fate is in your hands!" - Auron
Smoker's going to be one of the top brass in the new marines after the Eos.
His rise through the ranks is extremely relevant.
Do you predict lottery numbers that accuretly as well, since you predict future so accuratly?
We don't even know if there will be marines post Eos.
Using something that hasn't happened, and that you can't say for sure will happen, is not logical in any way. You are grasping at straws here.
That's just silly though, to say just involve him in anything.
Like I've just pointed out with Water 7.
It's probably the absolute worst example you could have picked actually.
Okay then. Don't. Smoker main goal is to chase Luffy, but he doesn't. And somehow, you think that's alright.
If the hunter can't track his pray, then how can audience find him treatning?
And no, Marineford doesn't count. Luffy came to him, and not him after Luffy.
We thought Bastille might do better than Maynard. That was about it.
We thought hmm senior vice admiral, he'll be not bad.
I don't think any really expected Bastille to have a major role.
Both Shanks and Blackbeard, two of the most important characters in the series have had large gaps between their appearances. Are you telling me that they aren't relevant to the plot? No, of course they are. Gaps don't matter unless you can't see the big picture.
Once again you seem to be misusing the word "relevant". The marines are still incredibly relevant to the story.
What you mean is that the marines are not WINNING. That's basically what it comes down to.
No, Marines are relevant in-universe.
They are not relevant to the story. They can't be. Not if the last two arcs are any indication. Antagonist who is not succesful in any way, is not relevant.
Just being there and having implied strength means nothing. As simple as that.
Until one of us actually counts the panels, let's drop this. Infinite loop.
Smoker wins. But not by much.
Whitebeard once competed with the strongest guy to ever live, had a massive fleet and allied crews to boot, that he attacked with all of, at once.
It's not exactly the norm.
Even at that, as your proud of pointing out, none of the admirals sustained any lasting damage, while one commander died, one was maimed, and the Yonko died.
You can't have it both ways.
Marineford is the example of Oda doing exactly that. Try and have it both ways.
The birdcage was an absolute last resort once the last 10 years of his work was in danger of being exposed. Until Sugar was knocked out, he had everything well under control. That probably wouldn't have been the case if Law had kept him occupied on Green Bit for longer.
Are you serious now? Doflamingo literaly has done nothing but stress that his subordinates keep following the plan he established earlier. It was made abundantly clear that he was not needed for situation to be under control, not until Sugar was knocked out.
You are overestimating Law.
They're broken for everybody. Doffy was also unable to stop law escaping.
Until Law stopped to actually fight him, yet again to buy time.
You can't equate the two situations.
Yes I can, since Law powers can somehow stop meteors, but not pieces of string.
Tbh, this is something that can be discredited by the arc not actually being over.
Fuji went pretty much from talking with Doffy straight to fighting Sabo, we haven't really seen his actions in regards to the citizens.
And gave explicit orders to not go after Doflamingo.
Also, I love how you can be certain that certain things will happen, that you use future events as counter-argument, but at the same time use argument that we can't possibly know what will happen.
Pick one.
I'm assuming his thinking is that if he stopped the situation as it is, then it would all be hushed up and another Shichi appointed.
If he lets the situation escalate to the point were it couldn't possibly be covered up, he can cite it in his proposal to abolish the Shichi system entirely.
So… how much more, exactly? Cause the only way the situation could escalate more, is for everyone to actually die.
And how would he hide the fact that the situation escalated that much only because he allowed it? Because that would be first thing Five Stars would say: System works correctly, it was your screw up.
And how does letting people die to further his own agenda works with his stated desire to protect innocent people as first priority?
Sabo appearing can be quite easily explained by Doffy's war mongering and armament of nearby kingdoms.
Either we have Fuji fighting Sabo and them cancelling each other out, so nobody loses or we have Fuji going after the SH's and Doffy and failing through some extremely contrived reason.
So yeah, fighting Sabo to stand still really is the best option.
It won't be long before the SH's will be taking on the strongest fighters in the world, just bear with it for a few more arcs.
Fujitora is incapable of taking any of them down now. How will you buy him actually being a serious threat when protagonist are even stronger?
Yeah, when nothing will be left of their reputation but smoldering ashes.
Presumably created by Sabo…
If he goes after both, then he has plenty of targets. Not to mention, three way battle creates wonderful chaos to allow Straw Hats escape.
As of now, Fujitora being present in this arc is pointless. It hurts his character for the sake of the arc, and that makes is even worse.
Hmm, I've pointed out Fuji's effect on the arc, and it's a lot bigger than one shotting a few arena participants. Fuji isn't irrelevant just because he isn't being allowed to go on freakin' rampage.
At the same time, Fuji isn't relevant just because he is present. His effect on this arc as a whole was almost none existent.
But then again, it would appear that you require extremly little to consider someone relevant, so what do I know?
Also, if characters don't do on-screen battles in Shonen Battle Manga, then yes, they are irrelevant.
Do you predict lottery numbers that accuretly as well, since you predict future so accuratly?
We don't even know if there will be marines post Eos.
Using something that hasn't happened, and that you can't say for sure will happen, is not logical in any way. You are grasping at straws here.
You were predicting that Smoker won't be seen until the last arc.
I'm predicting that he will because I belive x,y and z is going to happen in the story.
We're both predicting here, so I suppose we're both grasping at straws by your logic.
Okay then. Don't. Smoker main goal is to chase Luffy, but he doesn't. And somehow, you think that's alright.
If the hunter can't track his pray, then how can audience find him treatning?
And no, Marineford doesn't count. Luffy came to him, and not him after Luffy.
I don't think anybody genuinely considers Smoker as Luffy's enemy anymore, let's be honest.
Smoker's greater priority is justice, his ambitions aren't exclusive to Luffy anymore and haven't been for a while.
Especially after the events on PH.
No, Marines are relevant in-universe.
They are not relevant to the story. They can't be. Not if the last two arcs are any indication. Antagonist who is not succesful in any way, is not relevant.
Just being there and having implied strength means nothing. As simple as that.
Ok, so now you're basing your critique of the the marines relevance to the ENTIRE story on the last 2 arcs. That makes no sense.
You seem to really struggle to see the big picture.
We still haven't really seen anywhere near all of the changes made to the marines over the last 2 years that have made them "a much more powerful organisation".
We still haven't seen the height of Fuji's powers, and then a whole other new admiral, as well as the other effects from the world wide enlistment that apparently snared both of them.
You really need to take a step back from this.
Smoker wins. But not by much.
As I suspected.
Although it also depends on what they're doing in those panels in the first place.
Helmeppo was terrified constantly.
Smoker was incapacitating Luffy AGAIN.
He's not relevant to the story at all and didn't get showcased at MF though.
Marineford is the example of Oda doing exactly that. Try and have it both ways.
Hmm, no. Pick one.
Either drop the arguments with people about how the admirals pretty much effortlessly kicked commander ass during MF, or stop complaining about how the marines are inept and flaccid as an organisation.
Pick.
Are you serious now? Doflamingo literaly has done nothing but stress that his subordinates keep following the plan he established earlier. It was made abundantly clear that he was not needed for situation to be under control, not until Sugar was knocked out.
You are overestimating Law.
It was all under control, in a situation in which Doffy was never really distracted from the situation on mainland Dressrosa for any serious length of time.
Law put together this whole plan, which was pretty damn good until Doffy pulled out the major former tenryuubito cheat card. I wouldn't say I'm overestimating him.
Yes I can, since Law powers can somehow stop meteors, but not pieces of string.
Hmm, what's easier to anticipate, manipulate and therefore counter using my modification powers?
This gigantic meteor rumbling towards me from the sky that I can see all the way or this almost invisible to the naked eye string moving at fuck knows what speed, shot at me from like 4 feet away?
It makes perfect sense.
Anyway, like I said, when Law escaped Law from Green Bit, Doffy was also unable to stop him. That can't be disputed. His power is broken enough to get around anyone in those circumstances.
And gave explicit orders to not go after Doflamingo.
Also, I love how you can be certain that certain things will happen, that you use future events as counter-argument, but at the same time use argument that we can't possibly know what will happen.
Pick one.
Ok, so now I have to pick, and you don't?
It's a bit easier to anticipate things that have been building and laid out to happen hundreds of chapters down the line.
Predicting specific actions like what are Fuji's immediate actions towards the citizens going to be is just a little bit harder to predict.
So… how much more, exactly? Cause the only way the situation could escalate more, is for everyone to actually die.
And how would he hide the fact that the situation escalated that much only because he allowed it? Because that would be first thing Five Stars would say: System works correctly, it was your screw up.
And how does letting people die to further his own agenda works with his stated desire to protect innocent people as first priority?
He kind of has the cast iron excuse of "I was going after SH and Law", everything else escalates to a certain point while he does.
If he brings in two members of the worst generation (one of whom is another rogue warlord) then I don't think the Gorosei would be chewing him out for it.
I take it he's got a "let hundreds die to save millions" thing going on.
If his plan works out and the Shichi system is abolished, then Fuji obviously thinks that's better for innocents all over the world.
Fujitora is incapable of taking any of them down now. How will you buy him actually being a serious threat when protagonist are even stronger?
Yeah, when nothing will be left of their reputation but smoldering ashes.
Presumably created by Sabo…
If he goes after both, then he has plenty of targets. Not to mention, three way battle creates wonderful chaos to allow Straw Hats escape.
As of now, Fujitora being present in this arc is pointless. It hurts his character for the sake of the arc, and that makes is even worse.
He hasn't even gotten serious against anyone, except maybe Sabo at this current moment.
Just because he hasn't done something doesn't make him incapable of doing it in general.
If he goes after both, then you'd be whining that he should still be wiping the floor with them regardless, and that he should be fighting someone of his own level (Sabo), or not be their at all.
Also, why would Fuji not allow one of them to beat the other, or isolate one at a time? It makes no sense to go after both at once, at all.
Fuji's presence isn't pointless. We're getting a glimpse at the post-timeskip marines, it's building how strong Doffy is that an admiral had to be dispatched to control him, built up future plot points concerning the Shichibukai in an intense and entertaining way, introduced a marine who's actively willing to change the entire system etc.
His presence is far from pointless.
Especially considering how you were just telling me to drop Smoker in any arc, and that a lack of presence makes you irrelevant. That gaps destroy credibility.
You can't have it both ways, once again.
At the same time, Fuji isn't relevant just because he is present. His effect on this arc as a whole was almost none existent.
But then again, it would appear that you require extremly little to consider someone relevant, so what do I know?
Also, if characters don't do on-screen battles in Shonen Battle Manga, then yes, they are irrelevant.
I consider someone who's actively effecting the story to be relevant…and Fuji is.
Shanks hasn't been showcased in a single battle in the entire series, yet somehow he's still relevant and one of the most important characters in the story.
Just stop.
Relevant just means that other people's actions are affected.
Fuji's presence in Dressrosa affects other people, therefore he's relevant.
The marine is obviously relevant.
Relevance is determined by whether or not they matter.
Simple test, take them out of the story completely and see if there are gaps. The story wouldn't exist without someone like shanks, this current arc would be completely messed up without fuji.
Relevant just means that other people's actions are affected.
Fuji's presence in Dressrosa affects other people, therefore he's relevant.
The marine is obviously relevant.Relevance is determined by whether or not they matter.
Simple test, take them out of the story completely and see if there are gaps. The story wouldn't exist without someone like shanks, this current arc would be completely messed up without fuji.
Not at all, actually.
He has done nothing that could not be have been replaced just as easily by some other characters, or otherwise explained by the story.
He is just here for setup, and he suffers for it.
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And for Marines to be relevant, Plot shields would have to stop to exist.
They are never going to win, they are never going to take anyone major out, they are never going to matter. It's as simple as that. There are always ways to off-panel them, to stop them, to do something to allow story to progress precisely as it means to, and since the story is not about marines... c'est la vie.
Marineford is clearly an exception here, and not the rule. And even then, everything Oda could've done to undermine Marines while still not destroying them completly, and have the lose, Oda has done.
Not at all, actually.
He has done nothing that could not be have been replaced just as easily by some other characters, or otherwise explained by the story.
He is just here for setup, and he suffers for it.
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And for Marines to be relevant, Plot shields would have to stop to exist.
They are never going to win, they are never going to take anyone major out, they are never going to matter. It's as simple as that. There are always ways to off-panel them, to stop them, to do something to allow story to progress precisely as it means to, and since the story is not about marines... c'est la vie.
Marineford is clearly an exception here, and not the rule. And even then, everything Oda could've done to undermine Marines while still not destroying them completly, and have the lose, Oda has done.
Funny how despite all that you have an Akainu avatar. XD I just find that funny.
"Contests fought between two masters are decided instantly. An invisible battle is now raging between the two of them." Lelouch vs Schneizel, Code Geass
Not at all, actually.
He has done nothing that could not be have been replaced just as easily by some other characters, or otherwise explained by the story.
He is just here for setup, and he suffers for it.
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And for Marines to be relevant, Plot shields would have to stop to exist.
They are never going to win, they are never going to take anyone major out, they are never going to matter. It's as simple as that. There are always ways to off-panel them, to stop them, to do something to allow story to progress precisely as it means to, and since the story is not about marines... c'est la vie.
Marineford is clearly an exception here, and not the rule. And even then, everything Oda could've done to undermine Marines while still not destroying them completly, and have the lose, Oda has done.
Irrelevancy and replaceability are not the same thing…
Don't forget that the Old Gambler's presence in Dressrosa allowed Oda to build up his hate for the Schichibukaï system as he witnesses Dofy acting like the worst ally ever.
Also, for his defeat to be impressive, a character doesn't only need to be a blind badass. He also needs screen time to show how strong he is. Oda can't reveal all the major antagonists right before their defeats.
Funny how despite all that you have an Akainu avatar. XD I just find that funny.
When he finaly falls, they will write on his tombstone: "The only Marine to ever do something Beware of following his footsteps"
Not at all, actually.
He has done nothing that could not be have been replaced just as easily by some other characters, or otherwise explained by the story.
He is just here for setup, and he suffers for it.
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And for Marines to be relevant, Plot shields would have to stop to exist.
They are never going to win, they are never going to take anyone major out, they are never going to matter. It's as simple as that. There are always ways to off-panel them, to stop them, to do something to allow story to progress precisely as it means to, and since the story is not about marines... c'est la vie.
Marineford is clearly an exception here, and not the rule. And even then, everything Oda could've done to undermine Marines while still not destroying them completly, and have the lose, Oda has done.
I agree, Fuji's performance in Dressrosa has been lackluster at best so far. But he is a new character who needs his slow buildup. And besides, without him, Zoro and Kinnemon would've bought time for Luffy/Bart to fight Mingo when he and Law arrived near the Colosseum. Then the arc would've basically ended.
Marines before Marineford was clearly weak sauce and irrelevant except some vice admirals and the admirals. Marineford was the turning point, not just an exception, with Akainu in charge it's about time for them to ramp up their power and aggression. They've already killed 1 yonkou without sustaining too much damage. With the upcoming wars around Kaidou and Big Mom, they would have to take part and who knows what will happen.
You can't say that they are irrelevant just because they are going to lose at the end. 90+% of all villains in all works of fiction lost at the end, but they are not irrelevant.
ps. Fuji's tie with Sabo left a bad taste in my mouth.
Don't forget that the Old Gambler's presence in Dressrosa allowed Oda to build up his hate for the Schichibukaï system as he witnesses Dofy acting like the worst ally ever.
He entered the marines with the goal of deconstructing the entire system. I doubt his hate needs further build up. And more importantly, he is helping him, lest we forget.
Also, for his defeat to be impressive, a character doesn't only need to be a blind badass. He also needs screen time to show how strong he is. Oda can't reveal all the major antagonists right before their defeats.
If you consider that build up to how strong Fujitora is, then in my opinion it was a failure. His defeat is not going to be impressive, because he is not impressive.
Akainu being defeated I will consider impressive, because he took half of Whitebeards face and killed Ace, not to mention him defeating another commander, Ivankov, Inazuma, Jimbei, and all that other stuff he did.
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I agree, Fuji's performance in Dressrosa has been lackluster at best so far. But he is a new character who needs his slow buildup. And besides, without him, Zoro and Kinnemon would've bought time for Luffy/Bart to fight Mingo when he and Law arrived near the Colosseum. Then the arc would've basically ended.
Marines before Marineford was clearly weak sauce and irrelevant except some vice admirals and the admirals. Marineford was the turning point, not just an exception, with Akainu in charge it's about time for them to ramp up their power and aggression. They've already killed 1 yonkou without sustaining too much damage. With the upcoming wars around Kaidou and Big Mom, they would have to take part and who knows what will happen.
You can't say that they are irrelevant just because they are going to lose at the end. 90+% of all villains in all works of fiction lost at the end, but they are not irrelevant.
ps. Fuji's tie with Sabo left a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm not saying they are irrelevant because they are going to lose in the end.
I'm saying they are irrelevant because they won't be allowed to do anything before the end.
I'm not saying they are irrelevant because they are going to lose in the end.
I'm saying they are irrelevant because they won't be allowed to do anything before the end.
"They are never going to win"
Course they won't.
You believe Akainu won't do anything before the end as the fleet admiral?…
Come on now
He entered the marines with the goal of deconstructing the entire system. I doubt his hate needs further build up. And more importantly, he is helping him, lest we forget.
If you consider that build up to how strong Fujitora is, then in my opinion it was a failure. His defeat is not going to be impressive, because he is not impressive.
Akainu being defeated I will consider impressive, because he took half of Whitebeards face and killed Ace, not to mention him defeating another commander, Ivankov, Inazuma, Jimbei, and all that other stuff he did.
Would you actually prefer to have the Old Gambler arriving on Dressrosa after Mingo's defeat to say:"In this world… There are many horrible things that you do not want to see. Paticularly the Schichibukaï system... I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure it's all Mingo's fault" or maybe a flashback where he explains that the pirate who took his eyes became a Schicibukaï ? It wouldn't be so badly portrayed of course.
But still, it's much better in my opinion to have his goal and character exposed in the present time.
As for his strength, well it's subjective so if you're not convinced yet, I will probably not be able to do it.
"They are never going to win"
Course they won't.You believe Akainu won't do anything before the end as the fleet admiral?…
Come on now
I believed that.
Right until Fujitora was so effortlessly stopped by Sabo.
That's when I stopped.
Also, see, here is thing you guys don't get: This is a win-win situation for me right here.
If I'm right, I A) Will not be disappointed by having expected too much B) Will be able to gloat over being right, which is a good consolation prize.
If you are right, I will get exactly what I wanted for my favorite characters in the series.
I can't lose here.
I believed that.
Right until Fujitora was so effortlessly stopped by Sabo.
That's when I stopped.
Also, see, here is thing you guys don't get: This is a win-win situation for me right here.
If I'm right, I A) Will not be disappointed by having expected too much B) Will be able to gloat over being right, which is a good consolation prize.
If you are right, I will get exactly what I wanted for my favorite characters in the series.
I can't lose here.
"effortlessly stopped" really? As if either of the 2 of them are going all out, and if Fuji did go all out, he'd prolly take Sabo big time.
Also, I'd like to see Zoro actually face another swordsman if it wouldn't be too much trouble. Hyozou promised much but was an epic failure. Pica isn't a swordsman, even Kaku was never really a swordsman either….
Would you actually prefer to have the Old Gambler arriving on Dressrosa after Mingo's defeat to say:"In this world… There are many horrible things that you do not want to see. Paticularly the Schichibukaï system... I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure it's all Mingo's fault" or maybe a flashback where he explains that the pirate who took his eyes became a Schicibukaï ? It wouldn't be so badly portrayed of course.
But still, it's much better in my opinion to have his goal and character exposed in the present time.
Considering what we got? Yes, I would prefer that.
This is the man who stated that protecting citizens is his justice, and now is participating in a poorly explained scheme, which requires of him to side with Shichibukai, a member of the system he wants to destroy, and whom he personaly distruts, and whom he said he wants to take down, at the cost of those citizens.
That is not good writing for him, or for his character.
As for his strength, well it's subjective so if you're not convinced yet, I will probably not be able to do it.
I will believe his strenght when he knocks someone out. Or puts a serious wound on someone. With name, before you jokers bring that few nameles goons he crushed in the restaurant.
Meteorites are not that impressive, when they repeatedly fail to do any damage.
Neither is gravity.
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"effortlessly stopped" really? As if either of the 2 of them are going all out, and if Fuji did go all out, he'd prolly take Sabo big time.
Then fucking show it.
What reason Fuji has at the moment to not go all out? Worry for the citizens lifes nearby? That goes into trash, he summoned a fucking meteroite on the neighborhood. And Sabo is burning what's left of it.
Accomplishements of Fuji are highly unimpressive, especially considering accomplishments of his peers.
Fuji can't be that weak, Sabo is there to foil Mingo's plans of arming several kingdoms and inciting war. If Fuji just holds Sabo, he can allow the country to deteriorate a bit more so to gather evidence against the shichibukai.
In the long run he believes that getting rid of all the Shichibukais will be worth the partial destruction of Dressrosa, then so be it.
Considering even Alabasta Croc nearly toppled a country, the sacrifice here is not much if he can achieve that goal.
Fuji can't be that weak, Sabo is there to foil Mingo's plans of arming several kingdoms and inciting war. If Fuji just holds Sabo, he can allow the country to deteriorate a bit more so to gather evidence against the shichibukai.
In the long run he believes that getting rid of all the Shichibukais will be worth the partial destruction of Dressrosa, then so be it.
Considering even Alabasta Croc nearly toppled a country, the sacrifice here is not much if he can achieve that goal.
A) That's a Machiavellan scheme from a person that was very clearly shown to not consider people as means to an end.
B) The only way for Doflamingo to incriminate himself more is to let him slaughter everyone. And then Gorosei will ask "And where were you, Fujitora, while this was happening?"
Of course, he could argue that Sabo holded him up. And they can argue that he is stronger then that.
For now, evidence in the manga suggests that yes, Fuji is that weak.
A) That's a Machiavellan scheme from a person that was very clearly shown to not consider people as means to an end.
B) The only way for Doflamingo to incriminate himself more is to let him slaughter everyone. And then Gorosei will ask "And where were you, Fujitora, while this was happening?"
Of course, he could argue that Sabo holded him up. And they can argue that he is stronger then that.
For now, evidence in the manga suggests that yes, Fuji is that weak.
Half empty glass. To me evidence in the manga suggests that yes, Sabo is that strong.
A) That's a Machiavellan scheme from a person that was very clearly shown to not consider people as means to an end.
B) The only way for Doflamingo to incriminate himself more is to let him slaughter everyone. And then Gorosei will ask "And where were you, Fujitora, while this was happening?"
Of course, he could argue that Sabo holded him up. And they can argue that he is stronger then that.
For now, evidence in the manga suggests that yes, Fuji is that weak.
People aren't so simple like that, wanting to minimize casualty and having a plan that involves making some sacrifices isn't in conflict nor is it Machiavellian.
Making tough choices doesn't automatically make someone evil.
Half empty glass. To me evidence in the manga suggests that yes, Sabo is that strong.
This is also probably true, but Sabo being completely admiral level seems like a stretch.
What reason Fuji has at the moment to not go all out? Worry for the citizens lifes nearby? That goes into trash, he summoned a fucking meteroite on the neighborhood. And Sabo is burning what's left of it.
Accomplishements of Fuji are highly unimpressive, especially considering accomplishments of his peers.
he may be careless but he isn't out to harm civilians and Sabo isn't there to hurt ordinary people either. The guy is an Admiral, and DoFlamingo spoke of him being a beast in terms of power….his time will come to shine when Oda decides on it..
People aren't so simple like that, wanting to minimize casualty and having a plan that involves making some sacrifices isn't in conflict nor is it Machiavellian.
Making tough choices doesn't automatically make someone evil.
Machiavellan is not evil.
It's amoral.
But even from amoral standpoint (And I should know, being a machiavellan myself), this plan is not good. It sacrifices many people, for questionable benefits.
Doflamingo admited to wanting to kill the entire country in front of thousands, not to mention WG agents and Marines among his toys.
He is hardly minimizing casualties here.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
he may be careless but he isn't out to harm civilians and Sabo isn't there to hurt ordinary people either. The guy is an Admiral, and DoFlamingo spoke of him being a beast in terms of power….his time will come to shine when Oda decides on it..
Which means never, if current chapters are anything to go by.
People are not going to get weaker down the line. If he can't do anything here, how will he be able to do anything later, when Yonkou get involved in the matters?
And while neither of them plans on hurting civilians intentionaly, panels of their fight show a lot of collateral, so there is that.
And that is exactly why Marines are going to be irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
I agree that the Marines don't seem to be as strong of a force as they should be. There's still the Gorosei and Kong though, they seem to be more than just weak people in high positions. I also stand by Coby getting way stronger as well, but we'll see.
This is also probably true, but Sabo being completely admiral level seems like a stretch.
Why is it such a stretch though? I don't know what the outcome of the fight will be, but I don't see it being that much of a stretch really. Ace already fought on par with Aokiji and as a commander of Whitebeard was an equal to Marco and Vista, who held their own against an Admiral and the worlds strongest swordsman respectively. Sabo who was pretty much equal to Ace, has two years on him, inherited his devil fruit and seems to have trained under Dragon directly as well. So he doesn't rely as much on his devil fruit as Ace did, but still has those powers to top it off.
I agree that the Marines don't seem to be as strong of a force as they should be. There's still the Gorosei and Kong though, they seem to be more than just weak people in high positions. I also stand by Coby getting way stronger as well, but we'll see.
Why is it such a stretch though? I don't know what the outcome of the fight will be, but I don't see it being that much of a stretch really. Ace already fought on par with Aokiji and as a commander of Whitebeard was an equal to Marco and Vista, who held their own against an Admiral and the worlds strongest swordsman respectively. Sabo who was pretty much equal to Ace, has two years on him, inherited his devil fruit and seems to have trained under Dragon directly as well. So he doesn't rely as much on his devil fruit as Ace did, but still has those powers to top it off.
Ace got his ass handed to him by Akainu, and Ao Kiji on the other hand fought him for 10 days before he was beaten, so its pretty clear if Kuzan had actually gone all out against Ace, he'd have whooped his ass pretty badly.
I dun think Sabo is quite there yet, but almost. He just needs to master his new powers and that will take him up a few levels without a doubt…
