And honestly? I dislike the fact that Revolutionaries thus far shown are more brawlers then thinkers. It makes me sad, to be honest. And disappointed.
I hope you have a similar disappointment when the Five Elder Stars are revealed as old-timer brawlers as well :ninja:
Cause, heaven forbid that any established faction in a shonen manga consist of brawlers.
Didn't Sabo win the Mera Mera through strategy instead of direct brawl?
Not really. He won it thanks to his enourmous physical abilities, and not some strategy.
And seriously. Breaking the ring qualifies as being smart? He was lucky that the one specific fish, carrying one specific fruit, was not lost in the confusion.
And that New World pirates are instantly made powerless by unsteady footing.
Also, I don't know how would anyone expect the Revolutionaries to be any sort of threat by not having the power to back it up. Considering that their goal is to overthrow the WG, how would they do that without eventually facing the Admirals and such?
By subversion and sabotage?
Or you know… guerilla tactics?
I'm sorry, I forgot open fight was the only option.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
I hope you have a similar disappointment when the Five Elder Stars are revealed as old-timer brawlers as well :ninja:
Cause, heaven forbid that any established faction in a shonen manga consist of brawlers.
At this point they might as well have to, considering how useless the actuall army is… :ninja:
By subversion and sabotage?
Or you know… guerilla tactics?
I'm sorry, I forgot open fight was the only option.
You really think those tactics would be enough in the OP world, where some people can summon meteors, fire beams and are extremely hard to kill? You can't expect real life tactics to be just as effective in a world where people with magical powers exist.
Hell, Sengoku is well-known for his strategist mind, but still has a Mythical Zoan DF. Tsuru the Tactician also has a DF.
In the OP world, being smart is not enough if you don't have the power to back it up. Every single faction has their own share of top fighters.
Not really. He won it thanks to his enourmous physical abilities, and not some strategy.
And seriously. Breaking the ring qualifies as being smart? He was lucky that the one specific fish, carrying one specific fruit, was not lost in the confusion.
And that New World pirates are instantly made powerless by unsteady footing.
Strategy backed up by power.
And yes. It does qualify as being smart. Remember that he needed Burgess to weaken the arena before destroying it.
^^^:ninja::ninja:
Gonna be honest, my reaction towards people saying that marines will do something or be relevante, is somewhat like this:
Not really. He won it thanks to his enourmous physical abilities, and not some strategy.
And seriously. Breaking the ring qualifies as being smart? He was lucky that the one specific fish, carrying one specific fruit, was not lost in the confusion.
And that New World pirates are instantly made powerless by unsteady footing.
1 would think knowing where to strike the ring, along with how to use Burgess's strikes to perfectly weaken, and all with the good balance of not too much, not to little, yes, does require some form of intelligence.
Also if Smoker could keep track of 1 croc among many constantly going in and out of water supposedly with just intelligence and good hearing, w. e.; what makes Sabo so different, just with eyesight?
The fact that you don't like him?By subversion and sabotage?
Or you know… guerilla tactics?
I'm sorry, I forgot open fight was the only option.
No not the only; you just forgot open fight would become the eventual unavoidable option.
i personally don't see why Sabo didn't just take the fruit at the start of the match seeing how he has the ability to rend the power of the arrogant with his dragon talons
@Cyan:
I'm somewhat convinced that Darth's hatred of Sabo stems from Sabo posing a threat to high-ranking marines.
i personally don't see why Sabo didn't just take the fruit at the start of the match seeing how he has the ability to rend the power of the arrogant with his dragon talons
They got more arrogant as the match continued
He had to wait till they were their most arrogant.
@LUFFYSMC:
They got more arrogant as the match continued
He had to wait till they were their most arrogant.
that explains everything:ninja:
You really think those tactics would be enough in the OP world, where some people can summon meteors, fire beams and are extremely hard to kill? You can't expect real life tactics to be just as effective in a world where people with magical powers exist.
Hell, Sengoku is well-known for his strategist mind, but still has a Mythical Zoan DF. Tsuru the Tactician also has a DF.
In the OP world, being smart is not enough if you don't have the power to back it up. Every single faction has their own share of top fighters.
Sengoku is an idiot. And Tsuru has no tactical or strategical achievements to speak of.
And, more to the point: organisation of misfits bend on destryoing WG has two guys on extremly high martial level.
WG, organisation spanning one hundred seventy countries, has managed to secure two of those after world wide draft, in addition to two they already posses, and about three retired ones.
And I'm sorry, I need the explanation for that.
Strategy backed up by power.
And yes. It does qualify as being smart. Remember that he needed Burgess to weaken the arena before destroying it.
I'm sorry but… no. I might be biased, because I've read a lot of Sun Tzu when I was a little, but... no. Trying to call that a strategy hurts me.
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@LUFFYSMC:
1 would think knowing where to strike the ring, along with how to use Burgess's strikes to perfectly weaken, and all with the good balance of not too much, not to little, yes, does require some form of intelligence.
Also if Smoker could keep track of 1 croc among many constantly going in and out of water supposedly with just intelligence and good hearing, w. e.; what makes Sabo so different, just with eyesight?
The fact that you don't like him?
… So Burgess and Diamante are equal to Bananawani in this scenario?
A new thought, and more conclusive about the "white city" I bring you.
http://i62.tinypic.com/14t98uw.jpgThis little plate just makes us think of Punk Hazar, but the background does not make sense to the context that speaks Law.
So soon, we think Pink Dress, but it's not because of manufacturing Slimes are made in literally and figuratively underworld. Low the island.Then left the island of Kaidou, which is manufactured weapons that Koala and Sabo are looking for, but this conflicts with what I said, because we have evidence that Drake sailed to the New World, and there landed on the island Youkou. There apparently has nothing to do with Nortblue. But anyway that North Blue or GL is being.
You helped me create a more valid hypothesis, there where the city is in gerra from Gabul was (the fiho the granny) Pirate Schot makes the guard to Kaidou and also apart from being a city "Empty" in the sense of desolation wars and revolutions of this island.
In Case 689 the title even seems a foreshadowings "The island that does not seem to exist" An island full of winter season, snow white so much.Being snow this also explains why the White City. And the ending is Law appears to Doflamingo saying about this city means that Joker knew what Law spoke simply of the island territory of Kaidou. This explains the grenades. After all there may have been manufactured.
! http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg640/Kemuel90/01_zps990038dc.jpg
! http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg640/Kemuel90/00_zps68df97f0.jpg
! http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg640/Kemuel90/01_zpsf0e0ec07.jpg
I think that its more possible for that glimpse of flashback to be taking place in East Blue as Law and Doflamingo are from there(also Bellamy) and I dont think kid-Law would be able to go into New World.
Im more into some pretty random base in East Blue than Island connected to Kaido, I can be wrong of course.
I think that its more possible for that glimpse of flashback to be taking place in East Blue as Law and Doflamingo are from there(also Bellamy) and I dont think kid-Law would be able to go into New World.
Im more into some pretty random base in East Blue than Island connected to Kaido, I can be wrong of course.
Law is from North Blue, not East..
And if we take his speech to Law into consideration - with his lineage being part of the 20 Kingdoms that formed the World Government, wouldn't he have been born in Mariejoa?
Law is from North Blue, not East..
And if we take his speech to Law into consideration - with his lineage being part of the 20 Kingdoms that formed the World Government, wouldn't he have been born in Mariejoa?
Ah sorry, you are right. I should have checked instead of assuming I remember.
So what do you want to say with Doflamingo family lineage??
Ah sorry, you are right. I should have checked instead of assuming I remember.
So what do you want to say with Doflamingo family lineage??
I said what I wanted to say, lol.
He's a former World Noble so it's very likely that he born in Mariejoa, not one of the Blue's or Grandline.
The flashback will most likely take place during a time he spent in North Blue since Law was born there.
Sengoku is an idiot. And Tsuru has no tactical or strategical achievements to speak of.
And, more to the point: organisation of misfits bend on destryoing WG has two guys on extremly high martial level.
WG, organisation spanning one hundred seventy countries, has managed to secure two of those after world wide draft, in addition to two they already posses, and about three retired ones.
And I'm sorry, I need the explanation for that.
I don't really know where you're getting at here. You need an explanation for what?
I'm sorry but… no. I might be biased, because I've read a lot of Sun Tzu when I was a little, but... no. Trying to call that a strategy hurts me.
Doesn't invalidate the point that Sabo went with a plan instead of just kicking ass left and right like Luffy would probably do.
Strategy in the English language can have more than one meaning, and it's not exclusive to a military context.
Strategy, plan, scheme, idea, call it whatever you want.
… So Burgess and Diamante are equal to Bananawani in this scenario?
No, the Fighting Fish. If your Suspension of Disbelief can accept that Smoker can locate a Bananawani who has eaten a key through hearing and recognizing patterns, then the same should go for Sabo and the Fighting Fish. Especially when Sabo probably has access to CoO too.
How our friend above said, Law is North Blue. And as
Dude! the good? 'm enjoying arguing about it … because every post we will together form a line of reasoning. And bringing a new information is that Oda may be making a very strong relationship over the past Law with the ancient history of Japan.
I was talking to a gringo forum, and all that we have discussed here, the defining point of the island of Kaidou is the most appropriate for the White City, I thought of something very, very devastating to that Law can get pissed in the presence Doflamingo and join his band.
Recalling that Law did not know who was devastated their city, tried to ally to someone strong, and the irony of fate Law joins the major cause of the destruction of their city.
What makes me think this? is this book that a fellow gringo site posted.
Dude, that looks awesome idea! Oda made a credibility in the history of Hiroshima. The city that was succumbed by the nuclear bomb, and once again the word bomb league ace grenades Law
Continuing, Law knew that the future was Doflamingo destroyed the White City. Joker being a supplier of weapons becomes more responsible for the death of family members of Law
What occasionally think, is that Corazón showed the whole truth to this Law and Doflamingo had to kill Cora not to make things worse, or better business Joker.
In the past we saw a rainbow Pump Organic ShinoKuni, which to me is the evolution of the nuclear bomb.
I said what I wanted to say, lol.
He's a former World Noble so it's very likely that he born in Mariejoa, not one of the Blue's or Grandline.
The flashback will most likely take place during a time he spent in North Blue since Law was born there.
Mingo was born in one place but it seems he was growing up somewhere else. Maybe in North Blue. We will see.
And I didnt gotten at first what you meant with lineage so no need for lols n stuff.
:ninja::ninja::ninja:'d again by King Cannon, and he replied better than I planned to.
I'm sorry but… no. I might be biased, because I've read a lot of Sun Tzu when I was a little, but... no. Trying to call that a strategy hurts me.
"Might be"
You innocently slip that in so much it now genuinely gives me a good needed laugh, as opposed to before.
… So Burgess and Diamante are equal to Bananawani in this scenario?
Madriano + King Cannon seemed to get it, thought it obvious relating animals to animals
Could a White town be a place wiped out by the Celestials?
Could a White town be a place wiped out by the Celestials?
Doesn't seem likely, unless they purposely brought a sickness down on the place. Lil' Law seems pretty convinced he's going to die, so the obvious answer is he's sick with something. Though we could get duped.
It doesn't seem like a Celestial to just come wipe out a town though, I mean they would definitely take their fair share of wives and slaves, but wiping out a town seems something more suited for a panicking Gorosei.
Doesn't seem likely, unless they purposely brought a sickness down on the place. Lil' Law seems pretty convinced he's going to die, so the obvious answer is he's sick with something. Though we could get duped.
It doesn't seem like a Celestial to just come wipe out a town though, I mean they would definitely take their fair share of wives and slaves, but wiping out a town seems something more suited for a panicking Gorosei.
I meant more in the sense of gray terminal, a dead city that they decided to erase.
Veni, Vedi, Vici.
I meant more in the sense of gray terminal, a dead city that they decided to erase.
I don't think Oda would recycle an idea that he introduced a few years ago.
I meant more in the sense of gray terminal, a dead city that they decided to erase.
Still think it is unlikely, as it was the Goa Kingdom that decided to pull that stunt, not the CD. I feel like a CD would have actually appreciated hobos living outside the city walls so they could use them for target practice.
… Are you serious? The entire Dressrosa feels like re-using plot-points. What's so special about this specific one that cannot be re-used?
Because the Grey Terminal is relatively too recent.
I don't think Oda would recycle an idea that he introduced a few years ago.
I agree with Darth to an extent, Oda does use some of the same type of plot in different arcs, but the execution is quite different. Compare this arc and Alabasta, both were about kingdoms that have the current rulers trying to be overthrown. There are a lot of differences in the arc itself, but that is a similarity. The theory that white town in like gray terminal is possible, but we will have to wait and see. Sabo talked about how this town reminded him of home, which could allude to lots of towns/kingdoms separating people and only keeping those they think are worthy.
to me, since we are in the latter part of the grand line and we have to start figuring out something more about WG and void century, white city have to be related to some mass distruction weapon and the following diseases, that hiroshima book looks good to me.
having a huge arc like that, in my opinion, oda had to stress the limits of the format to the fullest just to keep a decent pace, I don't think the tension going away should be blamed on him or in the use of sabo but on the format itself. the only thing completely out of target for me are those DD clones, I think oda could have easily got away without them.
still waiting the finish to evaluate the existence of plot holes, gotta give the man credit for all his huge past work.
still thinking about break reading till the end of summer, i got one more week to decide
"I'm simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?"
to me, since we are in the latter part of the grand line and we have to start figuring out something more about WG and void century, white city have to be related to some mass distruction weapon and the following diseases, that hiroshima book looks good to me.
having a huge arc like that, in my opinion, oda had to stress the limits of the format to the fullest just to keep a decent pace, I don't think the tension going away should be blamed on him or in the use of sabo but on the format itself. the only thing completely out of target for me are those DD clones, I think oda could have easily got away without them.
still waiting the finish to evaluate the existence of plot holes, gotta give the man credit for all his huge past work.
still thinking about break reading till the end of summer, i got one more week to decide
Wait… who do you think we should blame for lack of tension, if not the author?
Or are you saying that the lack of tension was unavoidable? Cause that's outright not true.
I'm sorry but… no. I might be biased, because I've read a lot of Sun Tzu when I was a little, but... no. Trying to call that a strategy hurts me.
Sabo's strategy might not have been what I might describe as "masterful", but he implemented many of the things Sun Tzu discussed. For example:
@Sun:
All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
Sabo first tried to simply grab the fruit. When that didn't work, he baited Jesus by clashing with him (destroying his arm guard). Then he feigned disorder by doing nothing but dodging Jesus' attacks, and made it appear he was unable to attack, using Jesus' attacks to weaken the Colosseum. This also kept Diamante off him (since it looked like he had his hands full, and Diamante is a showman, he focused on Rebecca and Bartolomeo instead of going after Sabo) - taking advantage of the arrogance of both Jesus and Diamante. Then, when he felt things were ready, he suddenly busted out a move to finish off the ring itself (again, misdirection, since everyone would have expected him to attack his foes, not the ring itself). Or, as Sun Tzu wrote:
Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
It's also reminiscent of when Sun Tzu wrote:
Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
Rather than confront Jesus head-on (akin to besieging a walled city); or go after the fruit again, which might cause Diamante to also target him (a junction of the enemy forces); he balked the enemies' plans by keeping them off-balance (while making them think they had him off-balance) and targeting the ring itself.
Sun Tzu also wrote:
Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.
Which is, yet again, a fair description of how he handled the competition.
Yet another thing Sun Tzu wrote was:
If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.
Sabo used deception to give the impression that he was inferior (or even quite unequal) to Jesus.
One final quote from The Art of War which applies:
What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease.
Hence his victories bring him neither reputation for wisdom nor credit for courage.
He wins his battles by making no mistakes. Making no mistakes is what establishes the certainty of victory, for it means conquering an enemy that is already defeated.
Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible, and does not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.
Interesting theory
Pretty interesting theory.
Zo= Oz seems a pretty good fit.
Pretty interesting theory.
Zo= Oz seems a pretty good fit.
I really like the whole White city above the emerald city aspect. The only thing that confuses me is, wasn't law born in north blue? Unless he was just born there and grew up in Zo. Confuzzled
It's not relevent in the current discussion, but I think it's spelled zO. The Emerald City mentioned by Bellamy and the theory of Kaido's men looking like a robot, a lion and a scarecrow might be related to zO.
Yeah, I know…quoting myself. But times are tough. I really like the theory aswell.
In the end Shandora wasn't made of gold, so it wouldn't be repetitive to have an emerald city now.
Emerald city would be cool, Nami would go bonkers over it. Hope they do rob the place though, they need to do more piraty things. The gold they got from skypedia was basically given to them.
A yellow ocean/river as the yellow brick road would be pretty interesting too, though it might just look like a river of piss…
Kaido's army of zoan types could mirror the army of flying monkeys, and maybe pekoms is the lion somehow?
random theory, of the crew does get separated somehow, would they maybe mirror the whole lion, scarecrow, tin man?
cowardly lion- usopp
tin man- franky
scarecrow-???
@Gia:
I really like the whole White city above the emerald city aspect. The only thing that confuses me is, wasn't law born in north blue? Unless he was just born there and grew up in Zo. Confuzzled
I think his crew are just waiting for him in Zo, as one of the next destinations, I don't think Law's birthplace has to do with it unless Im mistaken.
Wait… who do you think we should blame for lack of tension, if not the author?
Or are you saying that the lack of tension was unavoidable? Cause that's outright not true.
Im just saying that's a very complicated and long arc and that fomat don't help.
Man i just can't understand how kyros could do. I sprained my ankle yesterday and its even hard to go to piss
"I'm simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?"
Im just saying that's a very complicated and long arc and that fomat don't help.
Ah, okay.
… But isn't that also fault on Oda's part? He decides what the storyline is, after all.
Man i just can't understand how kyros could do. I sprained my ankle yesterday and its even hard to go to piss
Well, he is a shonen character… not the most impossible thing shown thus far, to be honest.
Emerald city would be cool, Nami would go bonkers over it. Hope they do rob the place though, they need to do more piraty things. The gold they got from skypedia was basically given to them.
A yellow ocean/river as the yellow brick road would be pretty interesting too, though it might just look like a river of piss…
Kaido's army of zoan types could mirror the army of flying monkeys, and maybe pekoms is the lion somehow?
random theory, of the crew does get separated somehow, would they maybe mirror the whole lion, scarecrow, tin man?
cowardly lion- usopp
tin man- franky
scarecrow-???I think his crew are just waiting for him in Zo, as one of the next destinations, I don't think Law's birthplace has to do with it unless Im mistaken.
You implying my home boy doesn't have a heart? Cause the man cries over sad stories, and he is the most super guy out there. If we want to go with a heartless person, we would have to go with Akainu (Please don't get angry with me Darth, like the character, but from what we've seen of him, he's a heartless dick). Of course he's not going to be joining the Straw Hats for any adventures. Brook is ne next best choice, cause he's nothing but bones.
@The:
If we want to go with a heartless person, we would have to go with Akainu (Please don't get angry with me Darth, like the character, but from what we've seen of him, he's a heartless dick).
I like "amoral psychopath" more, to be honest.
It's not like I'm going to argue that he posseses high amounts of empathy, you know?
I like "amoral psychopath" more, to be honest.
It's not like I'm going to argue that he posseses high amounts of empathy, you know?
I know, just wanted to clarify that I like his character, which is also one you are supposed to not like since he's an antagonist. Though I did picture Akainu on the yellow brick road with Luffy. All that I have to say is I'm probably going to have a weird dream involving that.
The fairy tail connections were made a long time ago and while Oda is clearly inspired by them, he wouldn't copy all major elements of such a story.
Guys in the cover page here it has The scarecrow, lion and tin man from Oz!
Edit: Woops, people already mentioned it xD
!
I see we've circled back into tinfoil hat territory. Now it's Wizard of Oz stuff? Is Kaido the Wizard? Or is he still too busy disguised as Meadows?
meadows is james franco
@Miss:
See, my problem isn't really with Sabo himself, but more with how and when he was introduced. I can understand why he'd be that strong; I have no problem with that part, it makes sense. But just the way it unfolded is what ruffled my feathers. There was a lot of tension going into that tournament. Of course Luffy was going to most likely win, but it would have been fun seeing how. Everybody was excited to see what Diamante would do. Or how Luffy vs. Burgess would go. Or how Barto and Rebecca would handle themselves.. Then boop. In comes Sabo literally last minute to put a wrench in everything and render the entire 20 or so previous chapters moot.
At the end of the day, though, this is all a matter of opinion. Some people liked it, some don't. To me it just feels like Oda needed a quick exit to that whole side plot he'd built up and used Sabo as the key. But it's way too early to actually determine this yet; once the arc is fully over we can see if it did or didn't work.
Hmm… I suppose I can get where you're coming from. For me personally, I'm glad we aren't spending another 30 plus chapters on a tournament when the focus of this arc is supposed to be Doflamingo. I think Oda intended the tournament to be a way for Sabo to inherit Ace's will and to build up allies with the Straw Hats and allow them to interact a bit beforehand. Characters like Rebecca, Bartolomeo, Cavendish, and especially Don Chinjao. I guess I can understand why you and others would feel it's cop out. Perhaps Sabo could have been foreshadowed a bit more, but I think the shock value worked because we all knew Sabo was alive (most of us anyway), but none of us expected him to show up now of all times. I for one think it worked, but like you said it's all a matter of preference.
What I will agree on is that I'd like to see more from Diamante And Burgess.
im waiting for the spoiler
i though they release early
@The:
You implying my home boy doesn't have a heart? Cause the man cries over sad stories, and he is the most super guy out there. If we want to go with a heartless person, we would have to go with Akainu (Please don't get angry with me Darth, like the character, but from what we've seen of him, he's a heartless dick). Of course he's not going to be joining the Straw Hats for any adventures. Brook is ne next best choice, cause he's nothing but bones.
Lol my mistake XD
Akainu does have this soft side to him.
http://i40.tinypic.com/29utyzo.jpg
What kind of heartless dick would delicately take care of a beautiful bonsai tree with much love?
Though it could just be Akoji's bonsai tree he is planning to cut down while Kizaru laughs in the background….
Lol my mistake XD
Akainu does have this soft side to him.
http://i40.tinypic.com/29utyzo.jpg
What kind of heartless dick would delicately take care of a beautiful bonsai tree with much love?Though it could just be Akoji's bonsai tree he is planning to cut down while Kizaru laughs in the background….
He hates people with a passion, but after Burning Ohara he was saddened seeing the giant tree burn as well as the others. He devoted his life to growing trees in honor of it. He feels no remorse for the ship of innocent people blown up, but the trees deserved better. As Fleet Admiral, he has a strict policy, kill people and save the trees. If you harm a tree, you get a lava fist to the chest. This is the real reason he killed Ace. Ace destroyed many trees with his fire power, which Akainu got angry at.
