It's nice that people wear hijab just because it's some Muslim thing.
But wearing hijab motivated by the desire to "dress modestly," that's terrible.
I know that's not quite what you wrote, but it reads awfully like it.
Post how your day was…
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The hijab is the one that's essentially just a headscarf that leaves the face open right?
That one never bothered me the slightest. But that one that's full-cover, with a little mosquito net at the eyeslot isn't a favorite.
Like wear whatever you'd like, but i doubt i'll ever look at a shapeless blob of cloth and think yep that's a good outfit
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Last edited by Dryish; May 20th, 2014 at 04:31 PM. Reason: Jesus I'm scared of veering this close to religious debates. It feels wrong.
theres not much religion in this topic if you think about it (though that is a whole different set of problems). In this case it's the government forcing women to wear them by law, and imprisoning them if they don't. In western culture, it's the stigma attached to the religion by stories we've been told about extremists and cases where women have been punished.
You'll find that sexism in religion is a whole different barrel of fish, but at least when it's contained to religion, a woman should be able to choose of she wants to be a part of that or not at least.
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The hijab is the one that's essentially just a headscarf that leaves the face open right?
That one never bothered me the slightest. But that one that's full-cover, with a little mosquito net at the eyeslot isn't a favorite.
Like wear whatever you'd like, but i doubt i'll ever look at a shapeless blob of cloth and think yep that's a good outfit
its not about what YOU like wolfwood!! It's my body and I'll have you know shapeless blob is very in this year
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Oh, something related to Iran? I have to grab this chance.
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Few people are going to be completely cool with it as long as the stigma caused by the "women must wear this to be protected from men who can't control themselves" logic is in any way still involved, though, which is slightly problematic.
That type of mindset is bad, but in many cases it's just like a modesty thing. Which we also have but we just don't think of it. All cultures have modesty ideas, where less clothing in certain areas for whatever gender is seen as tacky and vulgar at worst, or maybe daring at best.
I mean compared to Polynesian islands where people just walk around with their tits out, we must seem like horrible puritan weirdos.It's a fine line in some cases, but it's mad important to recognize the latter type attitude exists too.
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It's nice that people wear hijab just because it's some Muslim thing.
But wearing hijab motivated by the desire to "dress modestly," that's terrible.
Hm, no, not because it's a Muslim thing, but because it's a part of their identities that they want to express. That can mean Muslim or just someone who wants to wear a hijab for some other reason (although, existence of such people is purely theoretical when it's predominantly a Muslim garment). You know me well enough to know I'm no racist. I don't like lumping people together.
And modesty and fundamentalism are two different things. Modesty is perfectly fine – although, whether you have to wear a hijab to dress modestly is a whole other matter that is so personal to every hijab-wearing woman out there that it's not even worth exploring that route -- but when it's forced onto someone on some logically false pretext that happens to limit the lives of its adherents and make them wary of people they wouldn't have to be, it's kind of... bad? But in reality, of course, those cases are so marginal that the whole idea is, like taboo said, just stories about scary extremists.
So eh, point is, people in the West jump into conclusions awfully fast when the whole islamophobia thing is still alive, and as long as it is the hijab's always going to be a controversial thing, sadly.
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@Monkey:
It's a fine line in some cases, but it's mad important to recognize the latter type attitude exists too.
Absolutely. I was just including that in the blanket word "identity". People in the West are just awfully bad at recognizing that different cultures have different styles of expressing the very same ideas. For us it would be a jacket or a shirt that covers everything, for many immigrant Muslims it would be a hijab. No difference there, really.
EDIT: And obviously, I'm only talking about West as in most of Western Europe here. What happens in Iran is completely different, and I think we can all agree it's just bad. The article was a nice read amidst all the relatively dark news coming from that direction.
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The hijab is the one that's essentially just a headscarf that leaves the face open right?
That one never bothered me the slightest. But that one that's full-cover, with a little mosquito net at the eyeslot isn't a favorite.
The really extreme ones like that are pretty damn rare. I think you only really find those in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Afghanistan in any notable amount. With the latter being the uber creepy mosquito net one.
Even the conservative Iranian women have their face fully visible. -
@Monkey:
The really extreme ones like that are pretty damn rare. I think you only really find those in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Afghanistan in any notable amount. With the latter being the uber creepy mosquito net one.
Even the conservative Iranian women have their face fully visible.Have seen those ones over here and in Paris as well. It's not as rare as you'd think.
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And modesty and fundamentalism are two different things. Modesty is perfectly fine – although, whether you have to wear a hijab to dress modestly is a whole other matter that is so personal to every hijab-wearing woman out there that it's not even worth exploring that route -- but when it's forced onto someone on some logically false pretext that happens to limit the lives of its adherents and make them wary of people they wouldn't have to be, it's kind of... bad? But in reality, of course, those cases are so marginal that the whole idea is, like taboo said, just stories about scary extremists.
But that's really a different discussion isn't it?
The topic of hijab wearing.
And the topic of forcing people to wear (or not wear) it.
Obviously the latter is wrong lol. I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing with that here.Women who choose to wear hijab exist, and they can even be really independent women. And of course they can be perfectly 100% fine with what other women choose to do. I mean I'm sure that's harder to see in conservative immigrant policies where it's almost definitely a product of paternalistic sexism. But that's a bias sample to say the least.
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Have seen those ones over here and in Paris as well. It's not as rare as you'd think.
Yeah it is.
This is probably that thing again where Germans (for instance) assume Turks are these crazy religious fundamentalists. But that's because they get a lot of poor Eastern Turks as immigrants. Because shocker, the more globalized urban population of these countries doesn't tend to need to immigrate to Europe.
You might not even be seeing immigrants, they could easily be Saudi tourists lest you forget Saudis have lots of money.
I mean it sounds like what you saw in Paris is roughly what I saw in Istanbul. Or even like here lol.
Have I seen a few extreme examples around me before? Yeah like once or twice. What's your point? Rare =/= nonexistent. -
Yeah, I think the biggest problem we currently have over here as well as in some other continental European countries (looking at you, France, Switzerland, and Netherlands) is simply the fact that the media coverage that the whole topic gets is quite myopic in many places.
I don't think the modesty aspect has ever been brought to light, and even when the media does interview independent young Muslim women who proudly state they're wearing a hijab, it's always portrayed in the light that they've been culturally brainwashed to think that way. It's a really terrible way of portraying it when it's so damaging on a societal level. Combine that kind of coverage with the occasional horror stories and tabloid articles about how Islam is a religion that oppresses women everywhere, and it's no wonder that the kind of thought still lingers and shows no signs of getting better any time soon.
Another thing that is funnily always left without any mention is that in many Middle Eastern cultures hair is also considered very erogenic, whereas in most Western cultures it lost that status ages ago. So yeah, dressing modestly to also cover your hair suddenly makes a lot of sense. No one just ever says it out loud.
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Headscarves are more common in Christian and Jewish populations historically than people tend to think. And by history I mean like 100 years ago, not forever ago.
Not really in Protestant Europe at all, and still not much in Catholic Europe. But Orthodox populations? Yeppers. Some churches still require women to wear them inside churches. There is even some fundamentalist Jewish sect in Israel that took to using Burqas, yes, the mosquito face one.
Heck speaking of Protestants you DO see it in particularly odd strains like the Amish. And it was popular a little longer back. Puritan women wore them for instance. Quakers too I think. Pretty much all those founding Protestant guys were supportive of it. -
@Monkey:
Yeah it is.
This is probably that thing again where Germans (for instance) assume Turks are these crazy religious fundamentalists. But that's because they get a lot of poor Eastern Turks as immigrants. Because shocker, the more globalized urban population of these countries doesn't tend to need to immigrate to Europe.
You might not even be seeing immigrants, they could easily be Saudi tourists lest you forget Saudis have lots of money.
I mean it sounds like what you saw in Paris is roughly what I saw in Istanbul. Or even like here lol.
Have I seen a few extreme examples around me before? Yeah like once or twice. What's your point? Rare =/= nonexistent.Hmm, yeah, good point. I think most of those people I've seen over here are probably Afghani refugees anyhow, so that would definitely explain that. Paris, I can't say, but probably something like that. It's a big city that attracts a ton of tourists and immigrants from various different places. Who knows what was up with that. shrugs
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Yeah, I think the biggest problem we currently have over here as well as in some other continental European countries (looking at you, France, Switzerland, and Netherlands) is simply the fact that the media coverage that the whole topic gets is quite myopic in many places.
I don't think the modesty aspect has ever been brought to light, and even when the media does interview independent young Muslim women who proudly state they're wearing a hijab, it's always portrayed in the light that they've been culturally brainwashed to think that way. It's a really terrible way of portraying it when it's so damaging on a societal level. Combine that kind of coverage with the occasional horror stories and tabloid articles about how Islam is a religion that oppresses women everywhere, and it's no wonder that the kind of thought still lingers and shows no signs of getting better any time soon.
Another thing that is funnily always left without any mention is that in many Middle Eastern cultures hair is also considered very erogenic, whereas in most Western cultures it lost that status ages ago. So yeah, dressing modestly to also cover your hair suddenly makes a lot of sense. No one just ever says it out loud.
Hair makes or breaks my attraction to some extent. How it's worn as much as anything. Chrissie can attest to how she can manipulate me easier with certain hair styles I like lol.
I actually think hijabs can be really cute if the bangs are poking out. Just looks like fashion then. -
@Monkey:
Heck speaking of Protestants you DO see it in particularly odd strains like the Amish. And it was popular a little longer back. Puritan women wore them for instance. Quakers too I think. Pretty much all those founding Protestant guys were supportive of it.
That's probably something that died out in Protestant Europe pretty soon after the first settler wave fled to found the Colonies, though. I at least haven't really run into much of that, unless the tradition of rural women in the countryside and housemaids wearing headscarves in the Protestant Nordics is a form of that.
It's pretty interesting that I, personally, would not take the Eastern Orthodox into account, though. It's nowhere to be found in most Western European countries, but we've had a pretty long past being the border between the two sides of Europe so you'd think it'd be more common over here. Because now that I think of it, one of the most striking stereotypes that we have of old Russian women over here is that they all wear headscarves.
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Hmm, yeah, good point. I think most of those people I've seen over here are probably Afghani refugees anyhow, so that would definitely explain that. Paris, I can't say, but probably something like that. It's a big city that attracts a ton of tourists and immigrants from various different places. Who knows what was up with that. shrugs
Istanbul had a huge amount of Muslim tourists so I saw lots of levels.
Ranging from tons girls/women wearing nothing at all to a couple Saudi women with their husbands in a niqab.
And lots of hijabs in between, worn from the loose "I do this because my grandma swats me with a broom" fashion to the genuine "trying" variety.
No burqas of course. Didn't expect to see that either.I think I saw like three hijabs at all in North Cyprus. I'm sure I could have found people just lying around getting drunk and eating pork there if I wanted lol.
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That's probably something that died out in Protestant Europe pretty soon after the first settler wave fled to found the Colonies, though. I at least haven't really run into much of that, unless the tradition of rural women in the countryside and housemaids wearing headscarves in the Protestant Nordics is a form of that.
Yeah though that's what that tradition would be. I mean no matter the religion, the image of the rural European woman from at least before the 50's was them having a basic headscarf no? I mean part of that is farm wear. But there was a little vague ghost of modesty stuff in it too.
Pretty sure when Chrissie goes to church she has to wear a headscarf inside.I'm not saying it was ever on the level that it is in parts of the Muslim world. But it's the same sort of idea.
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Hmm, now this has started becoming interesting. Do you have any idea how far back this whole tradition can be traced, because it'd be quite interesting to find out whether it was something that started as a result of some very early religious system demanding that (unlikely when even religions are based on long traditions) or whether it's something that has just become habitual sometime very early on in Western and Middle Eastern civilization.
Although, actually, thinking about it, even women in Indian cultures have had their saris, so this might go even further back.
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Sort of on topic i've always wanted to try out like nomad style clothing. That looks comfy as shit.
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Hmm, now this has started becoming interesting. Do you have any idea how far back this whole tradition can be traced, because it'd be quite interesting to find out whether it was something that started as a result of some very early religious system demanding that (unlikely when even religions are based on long traditions) or whether it's something that has just become habitual sometime very early on in Western and Middle Eastern civilization.
Although, actually, thinking about it, even women in Indian cultures have had their saris, so this might go even further back.
probably ever since mankind got the first awkward boner and didnt want to have to deal with it
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probably ever since mankind got the first awkward boner and didnt want to have to deal with it
Lol probably, knowing us now I wouldn't be at all surprised. It's just funny to think back about these things because you realize that people haven't really changed much and that most cultural things are just logical progressions of same ideas in different forms. Makes it much easier to understand people in general.
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Working thru some stuff. Dunno how long i will be here.
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We just got a new cart pusher today and I had to show him the ropes. Other than that, nothing special.
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Ever see like some old timey or exotic clothing, and think to yourself man i wish i could wear that and not come across as a pretentious douche.
It's kind of like with beards. The market was cornered by hyper stylized self-image wankers
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"Oh shit, my penis is showing. I should hide it from the tribe. I wouldn't want them to laugh at me".
Exists cave. Gets fuckin mauled by a tigerIT TOOKS US MILENNIA, PEOPLE. MILENNIA!
I wonder if the evolution of human sexuality follows a weird cycle. Like, think about it, we were probably pretty close to bonobos and their sexually overactive behaviour before we climbed down from the trees and started walking on the steppes. Then the concept of shame happened, lead to where we are now, and is now slowly getting eradicated when people by large are realizing that sexuality is actually pretty fun.
We'll probably plummet right back down again when we've gotten too free for a while, lol.
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Ever see like some old timey or exotic clothing, and think to yourself man i wish i could wear that and not come across as a pretentious douche.
It's kind of like with beards. The market was cornered by hyper stylized self-image wankers
Yeah, Victorian era stuff and some traditional Saharan nomadic clothes. Like, look up old Songhai/Mali style clothing. That stuff looks gorgeous.
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I wonder if the evolution of human sexuality follows a weird cycle. Like, think about it, we were probably pretty close to bonobos and their sexually overactive behaviour before we climbed down from the trees and started walking on the steppes. Then the concept of shame happened, lead to where we are now, and is now slowly getting eradicated when people by large are realizing that sexuality is actually pretty fun.
We'll probably plummet right back down again when we've gotten too free for a while, lol.
Shet, i hope i'm still alive when we achieve world peace going back to that mind set
"You know what? I'm tired of us hating each other. Maybe we should…i don't know, fuck our brains out?"
"....sure, why not?"
"Oh man, i thought you would never say it. I only have this gun because i have a huge complex with my genitalia".
"Oh, that's silly. Big, small, extra testicles. Everyone is invited to this peace orgy!"Wait, am i writing utopia porn?
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So today my sisters today pulled the plug on their father, ending his suffering (he had half a lung left that was being kept functional via machines) and he passed away two hours later. Even though he wasn't my dad he was around a hell of a lot more than he was so I am devestated. At least my last memories of him will be me and him watching the Super Bowl together and loving the Seahawks pounding the Broncos.
If you are gonna shoot, shoot. Don't talk
RIP Eli Wallach
3DS Friend Code: 3454-0518-6166
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I just want to throw it out there that Muslim women and their hair scarves are B-E-A-UTIFUL~
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So today my sisters today pulled the plug on their father, ending his suffering (he had half a lung left that was being kept functional via machines) and he passed away two hours later. Even though he wasn't my dad he was around a hell of a lot more than he was so I am devestated. At least my last memories of him will be me and him watching the Super Bowl together and loving the Seahawks pounding the Broncos.
My condolences to you and your family. Your sisters. Please take the time to heal and remember all the good moments you shared with him, and keep him alive in your memories and actions.
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So today my sisters today pulled the plug on their father, ending his suffering (he had half a lung left that was being kept functional via machines) and he passed away two hours later. Even though he wasn't my dad he was around a hell of a lot more than he was so I am devestated. At least my last memories of him will be me and him watching the Super Bowl together and loving the Seahawks pounding the Broncos.
My sincere condolences. Take care.
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So today my sisters today pulled the plug on their father, ending his suffering (he had half a lung left that was being kept functional via machines) and he passed away two hours later. Even though he wasn't my dad he was around a hell of a lot more than he was so I am devestated. At least my last memories of him will be me and him watching the Super Bowl together and loving the Seahawks pounding the Broncos.
My condolences, please be strong and enjoy the good times that life gives you.
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Sending prayers for your fam :(
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I was born and raised in Canada and I'm of Trinidadian descent and I happen to be muslim (for all you who don't know - Trinidad is a non-muslim country) and I grew up dressing "normally" through my childhood and high school. Afterwards in college I decided to start wearing the hijab, covering my hair and wearing longer more flowy clothing completely on my own. I got a lot of crap and insults from family and friends for deciding to do so, but I got through it. I'm no scholar, but if anyone is curious about the hijab I can try to answer any questions you may have.
So today my sisters today pulled the plug on their father, ending his suffering (he had half a lung left that was being kept functional via machines) and he passed away two hours later. Even though he wasn't my dad he was around a hell of a lot more than he was so I am devestated. At least my last memories of him will be me and him watching the Super Bowl together and loving the Seahawks pounding the Broncos.
I'm very very sorry to hear this :( my sincere condolences.
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That can mean Muslim or just someone who wants to wear a hijab for some other reason (although, existence of such people is purely theoretical when it's predominantly a Muslim garment).
Just wanted to share this interesting tidbit, presenting the Russian Svyato-Anfimovskaya Orthodox Christian girls on Easter:
http://rt.com/news/holy-week-easter-celebrations-774/
Though the largest community of women who cover their hair are muslim women, there are various other religions where women practice this as well.
Dunno how accurate this infographic is but you get the point:
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I'm gonna shape my hair into a giant vagina with a big middle finger coming out of it
Take that patriarchy
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Pomps rule but if he tripped into me, it's only be awkward in the sense that I'd be giving his sweet pomp the middle finger
Also the sex jokes are a bit much. Not saying this as a mod but .. They don't really add much and I've heard better
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I was born and raised in Canada and I'm of Trinidadian descent and I happen to be muslim (for all you who don't know - Trinidad is a non-muslim country) and I grew up dressing "normally" through my childhood and high school. Afterwards in college I decided to start wearing the hijab, covering my hair and wearing longer more flowy clothing completely on my own. I got a lot of crap and insults from family and friends for deciding to do so, but I got through it. I'm no scholar, but if anyone is curious about the hijab I can try to answer any questions you may jave.
How tolerant are they up there in Canada towards Islam? I thought Canada was pretty cool towards Muslims for some odd stereotypical all Canadians are nice way, but you said your family and friends insulted you and gave you a lot of crap? Probably that's just some kind of personal and isolated event that in no way expresses the majority, right?
Everything's Eventual…
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How tolerant are they up there in Canada towards Islam? I thought Canada was pretty cool towards Muslims for some odd stereotypical all Canadians are nice way, but you said your family and friends insulted you and gave you a lot of crap? Probably that's just some kind of personal and isolated event that in no way expresses the majority, right?
! Ehhhh it depends where you are and who you know. Here in the Greater Toronto Area (in Ontario) there are tons of muslim communities around, but back then (like 7 years ago) there weren't as many visibly around. I mean, there was, but nowadays I'd say you can't drive down the street without seeing a muslim woman/girl wearing hijab. And in high schools too nowadays, kids are wearing it up like crazy (holy crap you should see how fashionable my little sisters are with theirs -_- wish I had that in our time!) but when I was in high school I could count on one hand how many girls who did. They were damn brave.
! And yeah, it is still pretty common for a girl to be criticized for choosing to start wearing the hijab for all the reasons you could imagine. I got a lot of "you dress like an old woman" and "you look ugly without your hair showing" and "you're oppressed!" (<- that one always makes me laugh. Honestly does that make any logical sense? If you saw someone being oppressed, would you run up to them and go "YOU'RE OPPRESSED!!"?! How does that help in any way?).
! I have many friends who come from mildly practising muslim families and sometimes even their own parents didn't want them to wear hijab. I find it strange that it is a-okay to wear very little clothing, but some of us had to fight (not physically) to cover up. Nowadays most people in public are nice. I was born and raised in the city I currently live in and recently with what seems with more political tensions and current events, some people are becoming more outspoken about Islam in general in my own city, in the past year I've probably had people heckle, stare, and make rude comments to me in public probably once a week.Hidden:
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Ehhhh it depends where you are and who you know. Here in the Greater Toronto Area (in Ontario) there are tons of muslim communities around, but back then (like 7 years ago) there weren't as many visibly around. I mean, there was, but nowadays I'd say you can't drive down the street without seeing a muslim woman/girl wearing hijab. And in high schools too nowadays, kids are wearing it up like crazy (holy crap you should see how fashionable my little sisters are with theirs -_- wish I had that in our time!) but when I was in high school I could count on one hand how many girls who did. They were damn brave.
They = You too
And yeah, it is still pretty common for a girl to be criticized for choosing to start wearing the hijab for all the reasons you could imagine. I got a lot of "you dress like an old woman" and "you look ugly without your hair showing" and "you're oppressed!" (<- that one always makes me laugh. Honestly does that make any logical sense? If you saw someone being oppressed, would you run up to them and go "YOU'RE OPPRESSED!!"?! How does that help in any way?).
Lol, maybe they didn't think you KNEW you were being oppressed until they informed you. Phew, thank goodness for them~
I have many friends who come from mildly practising muslim families and sometimes even their own parents didn't want them to wear hijab. I find it strange that it is a-okay to wear very little clothing, but some of us had to fight (not physically) to cover up.
Very true, very interesting. I never thought of that but that is a very strange point. The only thing I can think of for people being upset about a woman covering herself up is maybe they see it as a kind of unwarranted shame. A woman should not be ashamed of herself for having a body and why should she be? Why is she trying to hide it and all her beauty? Is it because men say they can't control themselves and a woman should be more modest and not encourage temptation? How dare you cover up and buy into that ideology! You must be oppressed!
Then there's the opposite of course. I don't really think it's considered fully A-Ok in our society for women to wear very little clothing because there's still that issue of men/women…people insulting and giving others crap for that too.
Nowadays most people in public are nice. I was born and raised in the city I currently live in and recently with what seems with more political tensions and current events, some people are becoming more outspoken about Islam in general in my own city, in the past year I've probably had people heckle, stare, and make rude comments to me in public probably once a week.
That sucks. I have no idea what that feels like. Nobody can tell I'm Muslim just from seeing me out in public and walking down the street. I mean, there's nothing about me that would identify me as Muslim like the clothes I wear for example. I'm glad most people are nice about it as that simply meets my expectations of what I initially thought the reaction/reception would be like, but even if it's just a small minority of ignorant populace giving you a hard time it must be dismaying. You all are kinda brave for wearing your hijab out in public like that and if you won't accept brave or bold then at least accept encouraging to other Muslim girls out there, and really for anyone that wants to stand up for what they believe in.
Everything's Eventual…
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@Monkey:
Oh wow. The percentage wearing the veil in Pakistan is pretty high. Though I guess that's unsurprising seeing as I see a fair few doing so here as well.
My Granddad forbade my mum and aunt from wearing the veil because that is how prostitutes dressed …
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oh that's neat!! I wrote a paper on Iranian media last quarter and focused a section on Iranian women. Some of the stuff I read was really rough, but you really have to admire the tenacity of both Iranian women and the filmmakers there.
The tenacity you speak off is more or less a trait shared by all iranian women. They don't take shit from nobody and will castrate you if you don't watch your tone. It doesn't surprise me that their regime have to use so much force. Otherwise a bunch off cougars would have fed the ayatollah his own beard long ago.
As for the debate of chastisy ideals I've seemed to have sparked. Modesty is just a codeword amongst muslim fanatics for "control". Of course there are women wearing veils out of their free will, but most women from the muslim world dont dress like that in the west. And they cant dress like they do here in a country like Egypt or Pakistan. In which there are no legal stigmas, but women who don't veil themselves will suffer harassment and ostracizing. In Iran however, you can be arrested for not being veiled and in taliban controlled regions have their faces burned off with battery acid ( if they dont wear burqas that is ).
As long as this is a reality, all debates about the validity off veils is obsolete.
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Good news: hooray! I managed to get an 86 on my Chem final…..and my third exam score got tweeked a little, but in the end, my average is a 93. That's an A, baby.
Bad news: Having to work all weekend when the X-Men movie comes out means it'll be super busy for us concession workers. ....having to work on Memorial Day when X-Men comes out will require willpower and patience of the gods.
So today my sisters today pulled the plug on their father, ending his suffering (he had half a lung left that was being kept functional via machines) and he passed away two hours later. Even though he wasn't my dad he was around a hell of a lot more than he was so I am devestated. At least my last memories of him will be me and him watching the Super Bowl together and loving the Seahawks pounding the Broncos.
Glad you have some grand memories, hold on to those. My deepest condolences.
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As for the debate of chastisy ideals I've seemed to have sparked. Modesty is just a codeword amongst muslim fanatics for "control". Of course there are women wearing veils out of their free will, but most women from the muslim world dont dress like that in the west. And they cant dress like they do here in a country like Egypt or Pakistan. In which there are no legal stigmas, but women who don't veil themselves will suffer harassment and ostracizing.
Yeah, in those countries. Then there's other countries like Turkey where it's super 50/50 and against the law in certain public areas to wear hijabs.
And then places like Bosnia/Albania where it's super rare and probably women who do it get comments as much as Femme has in Canada.
You know the hijab doesn't have cultural presence in European Muslim countries when the conservative immigrant families still expect arranged marriages but their daughters don't wear any of that stuff at all.
Also North Cyprus where it was about as rare.
I think it's pretty lax in Indonesia (most populous Muslim country on earth) and Malaysia. Also Bangladesh and especially all of Central Asia and Azerbaijan (aside from Afghanistan of course).
Pretty sure none of that is the west.In Iran however, you can be arrested for not being veiled and in taliban controlled regions have their faces burned off with battery acid ( if they dont wear burqas that is ).
And Saudi Arabia same as Iran, also Aceh province in Indonesia.
As long as this is a reality, all debates about the validity off veils is obsolete.
I'm sorry but that's really stupid and makes no sense.
The reality you mention is only in select countries and a fraction of the immigrant population abroad.
So you had this Iranian student ok, I'm friends with a Montenegrin immigrant's daughter and a black American Muslim woman. Two very different realities from Iran. To say nothing of Afghanistan.
I mean I really can't wrap my head around the logic here. Unless you specifically meant in those three (counting Saudi) countries sure…well not sure? Because the discussion isn't about VEIL/NO VEIL.
It's about freedom of choice for the women/girls in question. And granted yeah after having the government pervert it for so long lots of Iranian women will want nothing to do with it. But you kind of see the opposite in Turkey where the reverse has been more common (laws against hijabs) where the conservative side of the country wears it with stubborn pride in some cases.If you've only read/heard about the topic through the lens of Iran and Afghanistan, you don't actually know the reality.
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@Monkey:
Yeah, in those countries. Then there's other countries like Turkey where it's super 50/50 and against the law in certain public areas to wear hijabs.
And then places like Bosnia/Albania where it's super rare and probably women who do it get comments as much as Femme has in Canada.
You know the hijab doesn't have cultural presence in European Muslim countries when the conservative immigrant families still expect arranged marriages but their daughters don't wear any of that stuff at all.
Also North Cyprus where it was about as rare.
I think it's pretty lax in Indonesia (most populous Muslim country on earth) and Malaysia. Also Bangladesh and especially all of Central Asia and Azerbaijan (aside from Afghanistan of course).
Pretty sure none of that is the west.I think we see a clear dichotomy, more stigma = more women veiling themselves ( I.E more secular gives the oposite effect). Thus it strikes me as wearing a veil isn't entirely your choice ( because choice means you have more than one option ).
@Monkey:
And Saudi Arabia same as Iran, also Aceh province in Indonesia.
Indonesia? News to me.
@Monkey:
I'm sorry but that's really stupid and makes no sense.
The reality you mention is only in select countries and a fraction of the immigrant population abroad.
So you had this Iranian student ok, I'm friends with a Montenegrin immigrant's daughter and a black American Muslim woman. Two very different realities from Iran. To say nothing of Afghanistan.
I mean I really can't wrap my head around the logic here. Unless you specifically meant in those three (counting Saudi) countries sure…well not sure? Because the discussion isn't about VEIL/NO VEIL.
It's about freedom of choice for the women/girls in question. And granted yeah after having the government pervert it for so long lots of Iranian women will want nothing to do with it. But you kind of see the opposite in Turkey where the reverse has been more common (laws against hijabs) where the conservative side of the country wears it with stubborn pride in some cases.If you've only read/heard about the topic through the lens of Iran and Afghanistan, you don't actually know the reality.
It's not like I base all my knowledge about veils on a conversation with a 14 year old. I just happen to think that all this talk about modesty is frustrating when millions of women in the muslim world are actually being forced to dress and behave certain ways because men want it. But this is more or less disregarded as a non-problem because we have to debate contextual legitimacy and talk about the fact that not all women might not be forced to wear it. Oh, spare them hurt feelings off being associated with their sisters in garments. But it doesn't reduce the insane suffering of women who are isolated from their communities or murderer by relatives for breaking this taboo.
It feels like we have completely fcked up priorities if that's where we wanna place our emotional resources.
But as a counterpoint to this, yes of course there shouldn't be laws against wearing veils. That would make no sense as far as I'm concerned.
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I think we see a clear dichotomy, more stigma = more women veiling themselves ( I.E more secular gives the opposite effect). Thus it strikes me as wearing a veil isn't entirely your choice ( because choice means you have more than one option ).
…in specific countries. Which was my point.
Indonesia? News to me.
Aceh is a very very very conservative part of Indonesia. Their Utah if you will. They have their own laws on these sorts of topics. Still less strict than Saudi though.
It's not like I base all my knowledge about veils on a conversation with a 14 year old. I just happen to think that all this talk about modesty is frustrating when millions of women in the muslim world are actually being forced to dress and behave certain ways because men want it.
Yeah that's what I'm saying is dumb. You're taking the conservative portions of the religion/geography and complaining about people having fair and free discussions about it outside of those areas? What? I mean even just beyond that making no sense, you're essentially falling victim to the same sort of cultural hysteria that islamophobes do. You're trying to frame the entire discussion of Muslim issues to it's ugly extremes.
You are in essence saying that it's frustrating to talk about Turkey, Kazakhstan, Bosnia, Tunisia and Indonesia. Because Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Egypt exist.
I mean what is that about really? What does that really do to the discussion? To wipe aside the more moderate secular and liberal areas of the Muslim world (to say nothing of Muslims living the west like Femme or my friend) as being frustrations in talking about the bad places? Like they…don't count or something? There's a really unhealthy mentality to that. Especially regarding people in the west's perceptions of the Muslim world in general.But this is more or less disregarded as a non-problem because we have to debate contextual legitimacy and talk about the fact that not all women might not be forced to wear it.
How the hell does it make it a non-problem. You're creating a false dichotomy here that's entirely in your head.
Oh, spare them hurt feelings off being associated with their sisters in garments.
It's almost like the person here having trouble framing the discussion isn't us but you. You say it wasn't one 14 year old girl that informs your views? No doubt true. But it sure as heck does seem like you vastly lack the scope beyond the extreme examples outraging you from the newspaper.
But it doesn't reduce the insane suffering of women who are isolated from their communities or murderer by relatives for breaking this taboo.
I'm sorry that discussing one topic does not address another entirely different topic.
It feels like we have completely fcked up priorities if that's where we wanna place our emotional resources.
So let me get this straight.
You're angry that nobody had a debate about forced veiling.
You're angry that no one on here had the slightest sympathy toward theocratic laws and arch-patriarchal social pressures.
You're angry that instead we discussed something many of us had actual confusions and questions about, instead of the horrible thing that literally zero people disagreed with one another on.Ok, sorry about that. Everyone let's sit around making identical posts about "Hey, that's fucked up", "Yeah damn that's bad", "Yes I also think that is really bad". "Me too".
So the next time people sit around talking about the gray area of weed laws. We should know to buck up and have a heated agreement about heroin being bad.
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Today was the usual. Pushing shopping carts, doing carryouts, cleaning up trash, and other shit. Nothing special as usual.
sigh I would rather be in the pool right now.
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It's my mother's birthday and she decided it would be a mess and a pain to clean after if she had a party in her house…so she used mine. Uh...yay? I'm brooding in the corner while her friends are in the apartment :b
Also my uncle brought flowers to my mom. He arrived while me and my sister were waiting outside for the food. My sister went to buy the cake with him and left me the flowers while she came back. So i was a guy waiting with flowers by my side. People walked by and stared at me. I wonder what were they thinking?
Meet a neighbor while waiting. Well, more like she walked by. She's really pretty. I'm smitten :p
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Okay, I'm not feeling good about my English final. Took a shot in the dark on this one part, and felt like I half-assed two other parts. :X
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I guess I should give this talking about myself thing I try…
So I'm in the process of trying to change my life and one of the things I'm doing is finally studying something I actually want to study so I'm abandoning my engineering course for Psychology.
I told this my parents last week and their reaction was mixed...If you're curious about them, they're ok people but terrible parents. I straightened it out with my mom somewhat a few days ago but my dad got a little depressed and decided to get drunk most of the week. Today we talked a bit more.
It was a nice talk, he talked more about his father. Seems like he was a tough guy, kind of badass actually...but also kind of a crappy father too. Anyway it was overall a nice talk though he said something that almost ruined it that I don't want to talk about right now. Something that reminded me of why I used to hate him and something that I'll probably have to deal with later.
It's nice to get along with your parents after hating them for so long...My life seems to be going into a nice direction somewhat for now
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Trained a warrior at work today.
Gonna take a while for him to learn all my sweet moves. -
Very true, very interesting. I never thought of that but that is a very strange point. The only thing I can think of for people being upset about a woman covering herself up is maybe they see it as a kind of unwarranted shame. A woman should not be ashamed of herself for having a body and why should she be? Why is she trying to hide it and all her beauty? Is it because men say they can't control themselves and a woman should be more modest and not encourage temptation? How dare you cover up and buy into that ideology! You must be oppressed!
! That /is/ a common point of view and I get it, but in my opinion, covering up my body doesn't mean I'm ashamed of my body, heck its the opposite!
I've been on the minor pilgrimage to Mecca and I'll tell you, malls there in Saudi Arabia have every clothing store we have in north America, including le gasp lingerie stores like La Senza. Women buy all the "western" clothes they want, however this brings me to my second point:
! Women have a right to choose who gets to see their beauty. I buy all the fashionable revealing clothing I want because I like it, and If I want to flaunt it, that's my choice, but if I want to choose who gets to see /my/ body and see myself looking all done up, that's my choice too. And in my case, I choose my husband, and I give him and him alone the right to check me out, lol. I love my husband and this is the way I choose to express my love for him. What's wrong with that? Basically, I don't feel that I need to show my body to everyone to feel good about myself. I know I can look pretty and attractive, and I don't need to show others to know that.
! BTW in islam men have "hijab" too, and it is mandatory to cover the area from their navel to their knees except in front of their spouses. So "benefits" go both ways.
@Outerspec:That sucks. I have no idea what that feels like. Nobody can tell I'm Muslim just from seeing me out in public and walking down the street. I mean, there's nothing about me that would identify me as Muslim like the clothes I wear for example. I'm glad most people are nice about it as that simply meets my expectations of what I initially thought the reaction/reception would be like, but even if it's just a small minority of ignorant populace giving you a hard time it must be dismaying. You all are kinda brave for wearing your hijab out in public like that and if you won't accept brave or bold then at least accept encouraging to other Muslim girls out there, and really for anyone that wants to stand up for what they believe in.
! Yeah I won't say it doesn't bother me cuz it does, but sadly I've become used to it. But unlike those dunces who have been bothering me in public, I /don't/ blame the majority for the extreme and misguided actions of the few. Stupid and crazy people are just stupid and crazy.
! Fun fact: the people who have heckled and swore at me in public are absolute cowards.
! Last week I was standing at the bus stop on a Sunday morning when some old guy walked past, looked at me and did a double take, then yelled something incomprehensible along the lines of "YOU FUCKING" blah blah blah while walking continuing to walk. I turned to him and said "EXCUSE ME?" and he continued to walk away. Wowww old man, you sure showed me! Your turned back as you quickly walk away from a 5'4 girl wearing a little extra material and eating a cookie is so brave and honourable. And that's true of all the others too, they won't face me. They feel cool enough to shout some obscenities at some random harmless muslim girl but not brave enough to hold an actual conversation. Losers.Hidden:
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I guess I should give this talking about myself thing I try…
So I'm in the process of trying to change my life and one of the things I'm doing is finally studying something I actually want to study so I'm abandoning my engineering course for Psychology.
I told this my parents last week and their reaction was mixed...If you're curious about them, they're ok people but terrible parents. I straightened it out with my mom somewhat a few days ago but my dad got a little depressed and decided to get drunk most of the week. Today we talked a bit more.
It was a nice talk, he talked more about his father. Seems like he was a tough guy, kind of badass actually...but also kind of a crappy father too. Anyway it was overall a nice talk though he said something that almost ruined it that I don't want to talk about right now. Something that reminded me of why I used to hate him and something that I'll probably have to deal with later.
It's nice to get along with your parents after hating them for so long...My life seems to be going into a nice direction somewhat for now
You took a really important step forward man. That's really important and i congratulate you. I had something simmilar in my house when i decided to study literature (both my parents are engineers) but if it is your pasion got with it. Just be sure that the job market of your career is healthy since i'm sure you want to practice it. Maybe if worst comes to worst you can do both careers? I don't know if it is possible for you where you are.
