Shichibukai Discussion Thread

Luca

even if we put garp at the same level of roger and WB,something i'm not necesserily agreeing with,age can be merciful with someone while not so much with others..garp seems pretty much still healthy and gave no sign of any health problems..while WB was surrounded by medical equipment even during ace's flashback with him (you can see it in his room when ace is trying to murder him the first time).

Thats not what I'm saying, I assume Whitebeard and Garp are equal, so it would mean that in their primes, Garp could defeat any of the current yonkou easily, since there seems to be so much emphasize on old age. If Garp who is a strong as whitebeard is stronger then current yonkou, because Whitbeard at the time of his death was the strongest person on earth = above the other yonkous. Take 30 years away from garp and he can murder easy any yonkou? that just makes a very very wide power gap….

The Laughing Man

@Maju:

that's what i'm saying too..he can definitely destroy an island,but several at once?nah..also it's not really that unusual to feel an earthquake even if you are away from the epicentre,so that doesn't say much about the "renge" of his power.

for the last part..garp doesn't need all those drips otherwise he is gonna feel repercussions..so no way they are in the same physical conditions…probably not 20%..but probably a rough 70% when he still is under the effects of his medicines,and noticeably less when he already had a blade through his stomach and it's not under medicines,remember that an old reyleight was enough to fight against kizaru while blaming his old age for it

pretty much every decent pirate can't be haki-blasted..so shanks definitely didn't became a yonkou that way

Well… It's currently unknown really. I mean, Shanks could have some God-tier Haki that could blast anyone down, and Oda has yet to introduce it. We still know so little about Haki, other than there are 3 basic forms.

Maju

@wolfwood:

Well he's confirmed to be an equal of Roger atleast. Straight from Roger's own mouth.

And to me it feels like it was heavily implied by WB's speech that he counts both Sengoku and Garp among his equals.

roger only said that they almost killed each other many times..same can be said for luffy and lucci,but in the end luffy was stronger.Anyway if i remember we already had this discussion right?WB speech was about the guys who knew how the sea was back then,not about strenght..oda also said that he was going to make WB mention shiki too,but he felt like it was too much information at once.@LordEnel:

Thats not what I'm saying, I assume Whitebeard and Garp are equal, so it would mean that in their primes, Garp could defeat any of the current yonkou easily, since there seems to be so much emphasize on old age. If Garp who is a strong as whitebeard is stronger then current yonkou, because Whitbeard at the time of his death was the strongest person on earth = above the other yonkous. Take 30 years away from garp and he can murder easy any yonkou? that just makes a very very wide power gap….

well if the actual yonkou are described as "the only guys who can be considered on par with WB" ,and WB itself is now weaker than at his prime (like multiple people already said in the manga),than yes,the actual yonkou are much weaker of both roger and WB at their prime.@The:

Well… It's currently unknown really. I mean, Shanks could have some God-tier Haki that could blast anyone down, and Oda has yet to introduce it. We still know so little about Haki, other than there are 3 basic forms.

rayleight's haoshoku was unable to knock down even one member of strawhats,heart pirates or kid pirates (ok,one of the guys of the heart pirates almost fainted)…so i really don't think there is someone with an haoshoku that big to be usable as a weapon against big names

wolfwood

@Maju:

roger only said that they almost killed each other many times..same can be said for luffy and lucci,but in the end luffy was stronger.Anyway if i remember we already had this discussion right?

It's absolutely possible that this is a rehash. Was probably a long time ago though.

But no the same can't really be said about Lucci. They were never rivals who continually fought.

Apparently Roger and Garp fought each other somewhat routinely for years without a clear cut winner.

To take that to mean anything other than that Garp and Roger were fairly equally matched seems convaluted

WB speech was about the guys who knew how the sea was back then,not about strenght..oda also said that he was going to make WB mention shiki too,but he felt like it was too much information at once.

Well yeah on the face of it. But it's the great figure he remembers of the age.

It's not a stretch to infer that the guy who thinks of guys like Shanks as kids, was talking about people who he actually respected as equals.

Darth

@Maju:

rayleight's haoshoku was unable to knock down even one member of strawhats,heart pirates or kid pirates (ok,one of the guys of the heart pirates almost fainted)…so i really don't think there is someone with an haoshoku that big to be usable as a weapon against big names

How do you know he targeted them?

The Laughing Man

@Maju:

roger only said that they almost killed each other many times..same can be said for luffy and lucci,but in the end luffy was stronger.Anyway if i remember we already had this discussion right?WB speech was about the guys who knew how the sea was back then,not about strenght..oda also said that he was going to make WB mention shiki too,but he felt like it was too much information at once.well if the actual yonkou are described as "the only guys who can be considered on par with WB" ,and WB itself is now weaker than at his prime (like multiple people already said in the manga),than yes,the actual yonkou are much weaker of both roger and WB at their prime.rayleight's haoshoku was unable to knock down even one member of strawhats,heart pirates or kid pirates (ok,one of the guys of the heart pirates almost fainted)…so i really don't think there is someone with an haoshoku that big to be usable as a weapon against big names

Like I said, we don't know for sure.

Shanks is a Yonko, and seemingly, a Yonko without a Devil Fruit. How could someone like him become one of the 4 strongest pirates in the CURRENT world without the use of a Devil Fruit, only using Haki, especially when he vies for power against such Great Pirates like Big Mom, Kaido of the Hundred Beasts, and Blackbeard, who, like you said/are implying, shouldn't be hurt by Haki.

He obviously isn't the world's best swordsman, Hawkeye holds that honor CURRENTLY, so… Also. I believe Shanks is the only person who is LITERALLY leaking Haki from his body, his Haki is seemingly that powerful (he was cracking the Moby Dick during his meeting with Whitebeard, and knocking out top-tier dudes; even if top-tier fodder dudes). My bet, Shanks has evolved his Haki to such a level that he can, in fact, affect high-tier and top-tier dudes with it, and even non-living things (i.e. like the Moby Dick, Whitebeard's ship). He might not be able to knock them out completely, but, I bet he can, like...make them dizzy, make them feel sick, make their vision go blurry with it etc.

Why would he be counted amongst the Yonko, who, are probably pretty evenly matched with one another, and how come the other Yonko seemingly respect him (and the Fleet Admiral and Admirals kinda-sorta tremble at him and his crew)?

desa

Buggy said the only one who matched his captain strength was Whitebeard.

Maju

@Darth:

How do you know he targeted them?

because he just said so in chapter 504,page 12

wolfwood

@desa:

Buggy said the only one who matched his captain strength was Whitebeard.

Second hand accounts like that should be trumped by the man himself saying you almost killed me no?

That he'd be in that kind of situation against someone notacibly weaker, repeatedly, makes absolutely no sense.

desa

@wolfwood:

Second hand accounts like that should be trumped by the man himself saying you almost killed me no?

That he'd be in that kind of situation against someone notacibly weaker, repeatedly, makes absolutely no sense.

Well there is close level and being equal. Buggy was also on Roger's crew so I take his word on that. And I doubt a sick Whitebeard would retain the title of strongest with his sickness if he had Garp as his equal..

wolfwood

@desa:

Well there is close level and being equal. Buggy was also on Roger's crew so I take his word on that. And I doubt a sick Whitebeard would retain the title of strongest with his sickness if he had Garp as his equal..

Someone being his equal doesn't neccesarily mean that they are exactly as strong though.

One could be a 99 and one could be a 97. But they are on equal footing is what i'm getting at.

If it was someone other than Garp then i could consider him having some tricky devil fruit that gave him an edge in their battles, but Garp literally just smashes things with his fists, and as far as we've seen he ain't exactly mister strategy. So for him to have taken Roger that far he'd pretty much have to be of equal strength/skill/will or whatever you'd like to call it.

As for his title, i imagine he'd retain that title until someone beat him up and took it forcefully.

desa

Like I said I can't see Garp being weaker than a sick Whitebeard if they were pretty much equal in their prime. Plus the comment of Buggy.

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I imagine the difference between Roger and Garp to be like Goku and Krilin when they pushed that rock at the end of their training. Enough to see who is stronger but not enough for the weaker to have no decent chance.

1PceXperience

@desa:

Like I said I can't see Garp being weaker than a sick Whitebeard if they were pretty much equal in their prime. Plus the comment of Buggy.

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I imagine the difference between Roger and Garp to be like Goku and Krilin when they pushed that rock at the end of their training. Enough to see who is stronger but not enough for the weaker to have no decent chance.

The one thing I like about One Piece is that I don't really seem to be a "He's the strongest of all!" kind of character. OP is kind of like the NBA finals/MLB Finals. There are series that are played (e.g. best of 7 games).

When Luffy fought Croc, he lost 2 of the 3 times they fought. I can see Garp and Roger bout much like that. Instead of one being stronger than the other, it's more a long the lines of who won the battle this time? I mean.. both of them nearly killed each other. One has the upper hand one day, the other the next…

genocyber

@Darth:

… And why, pray tell, couldn't Kizaru just off-him right there? Or Aokiji, who isn't shown doing anything during that time? Hell, Shichibukai didn't do anything until he reached walls. Sengoku should have ordered one of Admirals to kill him the moment he downed first VA of Giant Squad. Akainu would be perfect. It is a plot device to allow Whitebeard Pirates on to the Plaza, because Luffy is with them and he cannot possibly die.

The admirals cant always be on the front lines. They are mostly reserved for the final defense when all else fails. Sengoku needed them to guard the division walls if anything made it past that barrier.

Carmilla

@Maju:

that's what i'm saying too..he can definitely destroy an island,but several at once?nah..also it's not really that unusual to feel an earthquake even if you are away from the epicentre,so that doesn't say much about the "renge" of his power.

for the last part..garp doesn't need all those drips otherwise he is gonna feel repercussions..so no way they are in the same physical conditions…probably not 20%..but probably a rough 70% when he still is under the effects of his medicines,and noticeably less when he already had a blade through his stomach and it's not under medicines,remember that an old reyleight was enough to fight against kizaru while blaming his old age for it

lol they are in the epicentre when earthquakes destroy towns? Especially tsunami is dangerous to islands.
dunno about other islands though, but there was danger on the shabondi.

old man, half dead, half faced, kicked akainu's ass, and had power to still fight teach.
Garp fought equally against Roger, and we know it's lot about 'species of power' in one piece. Also WB's sickness made him distracted, thats was his main weakness. He couldn't use coc when that sickness attacked, neither he could protect himself against akainu, when he made hole in him. That's what sickness did to him, but we don't know if age did anything special to him, like making his attacks lot weaker, when sickness isn't striking.

_Phoenix

@mary:

lol they are in the epicentre when earthquakes destroy towns? Especially tsunami is dangerous to islands.
dunno about other islands though, but there was danger on the shabondi.

old man, half dead, half faced, kicked akainu's ass, and had power to still fight teach.
Garp fought equally against Roger, and we know it's lot about 'species of power' in one piece. Also WB's sickness made him distracted, thats was his main weakness. He couldn't use coc when that sickness attacked, neither he could protect himself against akainu, when he made hole in him. That's what sickness did to him, but we don't know if age did anything special to him, like making his attacks lot weaker, when sickness isn't striking.

Only WB fought equally with Roger.

Carmilla

@_Phoenix:

Only WB fought equally with Roger.

"The two of us have nearly killed each other so many times"
Not equally maybe, but this means a lot.

_Phoenix

@mary:

"The two of us have nearly killed each other so many times"
Not equally maybe, but this means a lot.

Buggy: Whitebeard is… he is... A legendary "MONSTER" who was once the only man who could ever match the Pirate King Roger!!! HE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE MOST POWERFUL PIRATE IN THE WORLD!!!! THE MAN CLOSEST TO THE "ONE PIECE"!!!! And the one thing Whitebeard will not stand for AT ALL is the death of his crew!!! THIS IS ABSOLUTE!! THAT'S WHAT KIND OF MAN HE IS!!!.

Carmilla

I know that, and it is not relevant to what I said first.
And I said this just now: Not equally maybe, but this means a lot

Darth

@_Phoenix:

Buggy: Whitebeard is… he is... A legendary "MONSTER" who was once the only man who could ever match the Pirate King Roger!!! HE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT, THE MOST POWERFUL PIRATE IN THE WORLD!!!! THE MAN CLOSEST TO THE "ONE PIECE"!!!! And the one thing Whitebeard will not stand for AT ALL is the death of his crew!!! THIS IS ABSOLUTE!! THAT'S WHAT KIND OF MAN HE IS!!!.

A) Buggy talks about being the most powerful pirate and finding One Piece. Two things Garp doesn't care about. That clearly shows he was talking only about his equals among the pirates, not including marines into it.

B) Even if he was talking about all of them, there is more than 300 chapters between the two. That's about six years. Or more. Maybe Oda just didn't plan for Garp to be this strong at that moment in tiime, and decided to change that later.

C) You are trusting Buggy now? Since he can be consider trustworthy and reliable source of information.

@genocyber:

The admirals cant always be on the front lines. They are mostly reserved for the final defense when all else fails. Sengoku needed them to guard the division walls if anything made it past that barrier.

We see that this isn't true, though. Aokiji and Kizaru both leave their posts to attack Whitebeard, Akainu leaves to talk to Squardo, Kizaru attacks Luffy while he is on the ice… There is no reason for Sengoku to not order Kizaru to shot Oars through the head before he reaches the inner walls. Hell, he wouldn't even have to leave, since his beams don't seem have ranger limitations, if what we saw in Saoboady was true.

TheGreatestSwordsman

@Maju:

and drowning ace in the process?
great rescue plan

even though the "tsunami plan" he pulled out at the beginning was not better,but maybe he knew it would have been stopped

@Darth:

See, that is not a plot device. You know why? Because Ace is standing on the same ground. Cuffed with Sea Stone, meaning he was vulnerable to normal damage. Attack so massive that it would wipe out the marines, would wipe out Ace as well. That isn't a plot device. That's Marines using member of Whitebeard crew as a human shield against them.

Actually, come to think of it, Admirals save Ace TWICE. First time from tsunami and second from that attack Whitebeard used against John Giant.

Whitebeard really sucks at this whole rescue thing.

Whitebeard's plan overall sucked, there was still a tsunami that nearly killed Ace regardless right? Whitebeard would have tanked the entire island and then have several Fishmen underwater save Ace.. you know.. the guys who live under his rule? Now I am sure that some islands around would get affected but at the end of the day you can't save someone when the entire Marine government is standing in your way without any repercussions whatsoever. Last thing to do is go about the "inability to think" tactic that Vivi used constantly during the Alabasta arc. If he can't figure out that you can't save someone without some sacrifices at that age where he's been through it all.. well, that would be rather weird. Even if Whitebeard didn't employ this tactic, he certainly could have went and attacked bit by bit ahead taking out most of the enemies this way rather than constantly worrying about his power because his own fodder rushed to the battlefield, who always seemed to play a more negative role than a positive one for the war.

So yes, Whitebeard's plan was certainly a plot device because it wasn't the smartest thing ever, similar to Admirals. I don't mind it obviously, but it is what it is.

And no I don't believe that bad things would happen to the whole world if Whitebeard used his power. Some islands nearby sure, but the whole world?

Luca

@1PceXperience:

The one thing I like about One Piece is that I don't really seem to be a "He's the strongest of all!" kind of character. OP is kind of like the NBA finals/MLB Finals. There are series that are played (e.g. best of 7 games).

When Luffy fought Croc, he lost 2 of the 3 times they fought. I can see Garp and Roger bout much like that. Instead of one being stronger than the other, it's more a long the lines of who won the battle this time? I mean.. both of them nearly killed each other. One has the upper hand one day, the other the next…

I disagree, luffy lost because he dindt know crocs weakness, which was bound to happen sooner or later. For Garp and Roger to almost kill each other countless times, means that they clearly were equal.

TheGreatestSwordsman

@LordEnel:

I disagree, luffy lost because he dindt know crocs weakness, which was bound to happen sooner or later. For Garp and Roger to almost kill each other countless times, means that they clearly were equal.

If Garp nearly killed him countless times, why did he not either actually kill him or at least take him in? Roger I could understand since he probably got a kick out of it, but why would Garp beat him on some occasions and then Roger gets away every time?

Darth

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

If Garp nearly killed him countless times, why did he not either actually kill him or at least take him in? Roger I could understand since he probably got a kick out of it, but why would Garp beat him on some occasions and then Roger gets away every time?

Because Roger has crew that would take him away from the marines if he lost?

1PceXperience

@LordEnel:

I disagree, luffy lost because he dindt know crocs weakness, which was bound to happen sooner or later. For Garp and Roger to almost kill each other countless times, means that they clearly were equal.

No dude. You're wrong.

Luffy lost a second time even after discovering Croc's weakness. Remember this:

wolfwood

I imagine almost killed each other means it was something more like Ace vs Jinbei.

Only on more of regular basis.

Carmilla

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

Whitebeard's plan overall sucked, there was still a tsunami that nearly killed Ace regardless right? Whitebeard would have tanked the entire island and then have several Fishmen underwater save Ace.. you know.. the guys who live under his rule? Now I am sure that some islands around would get affected but at the end of the day you can't save someone when the entire Marine government is standing in your way without any repercussions whatsoever. Last thing to do is go about the "inability to think" tactic that Vivi used constantly during the Alabasta arc. If he can't figure out that you can't save someone without some sacrifices at that age where he's been through it all.. well, that would be rather weird. Even if Whitebeard didn't employ this tactic, he certainly could have went and attacked bit by bit ahead taking out most of the enemies this way rather than constantly worrying about his power because his own fodder rushed to the battlefield, who always seemed to play a more negative role than a positive one for the war.

So yes, Whitebeard's plan was certainly a plot device because it wasn't the smartest thing ever, similar to Admirals. I don't mind it obviously, but it is what it is.

And no I don't believe that bad things would happen to the whole world if Whitebeard used his power. Some islands nearby sure, but the whole world?

Look, all these 'fodder' were quite strong, at least not weaker than marine 'fodder'. I hate this word. But those guys LOVED Ace and WANTED to save him. Everyone, even Oars himself knew that he would be killed, because he was easy target, but whitebeard let him fight that way because Oars wanted to. It turned out that he did great job but how do you know that these 'fodder' didn't? Old man let everyone participate in saving brother, to show the spirit they had.
And what about his tactic? What would be more effective? His goal was to reach plaza, not to whipe out all marines. He knew he couldn't. He wanted to save Ace and let them escape. And I'm sure he was going to stay behind from the start.

Darth

@mary:

Look, all these 'fodder' were quite strong, at least not weaker than marine 'fodder'. I hate this word. But those guys LOVED Ace and WANTED to save him. Everyone, even Oars himself knew that he would be killed, because he was easy target, but whitebeard let him fight that way because Oars wanted to. It turned out that he did great job but how do you know that these 'fodder' didn't? Old man let everyone participate in saving brother, to show the spirit they had.
And what about his tactic? What would be more effective? His goal was to reach plaza, not to whipe out all marines. He knew he couldn't. He wanted to save Ace and let them escape. And I'm sure he was going to stay behind from the start.

And I, for one, have no problem with that. Whitebeard has his morals, his character, and that explains his behavior.

What I do have problem with is that Marines were made incompetent for the sole purpoes of plot convinience. I mean, why Akainu, the man known and shown to be extremly ruthless, didn't just ripped Whitebeards head off with Meigo when he collapsed under his illness for the first time? Why Kizaru didn't destroyed the last charging ship of Whitebeard pirates? I can do this all day.

Carmilla

@Darth:

And I, for one, have no problem with that. Whitebeard has his morals, his character, and that explains his behavior.

What I do have problem with is that Marines were made incompetent for the sole purpoes of plot convinience. I mean, why Akainu, the man known and shown to be extremly ruthless, didn't just ripped Whitebeards head off with Meigo when he collapsed under his illness for the first time? Why Kizaru didn't destroyed the last charging ship of Whitebeard pirates? I can do this all day.

Kizaru was just having fun

With just half face and with that hole in his chest Whitebeard kicked Teach's ass. What more and better for himself could Akainu possibly do?

TheGreatestSwordsman

@mary:

Look, all these 'fodder' were quite strong, at least not weaker than marine 'fodder'. I hate this word. But those guys LOVED Ace and WANTED to save him. Everyone, even Oars himself knew that he would be killed, because he was easy target, but whitebeard let him fight that way because Oars wanted to. It turned out that he did great job but how do you know that these 'fodder' didn't? Old man let everyone participate in saving brother, to show the spirit they had.
And what about his tactic? What would be more effective? His goal was to reach plaza, not to whipe out all marines. He knew he couldn't. He wanted to save Ace and let them escape. And I'm sure he was going to stay behind from the start.

They really weren't quite strong. Half his crew in his own ship was taken out by Shanks with haki when he first came to the ship, and Rayleigh couldn't take out even the weakling trio with his haki when first introduced. They may not be as weak as your average joe pirate, but it was obvious they were in the way. I am really unsure why you are asking about his tactic, did you not bother reading half of the post you yourself quoted? Completely skip it over since your next question is what's more effective? Go reread the post again, because there's no reason I should copy & past what I wrote for you when it's written on something you yourself quoted.

If you take out the 4 Admirals and Garp out of the equation, he could have taken out everybody without a whole lot of hassle. Regardless of them being there, not being able to use his power effectively because his own pirates that were in this war ahead of him.. because you had many Vice Admirals, 3 Admirals, a Fleet Admiral and Garp on that side, every other Marine is fodder in comparison. When you put some of the strongest people in a war and compare them to some strong guys, it's obvious that all those numbers don't amount to much. Symbolically it was beautiful, Whitebeard as person it's easy why he is such a fantastic character and my favorite Yonko by far. But from a tactical point of view, that was some atrocious planning. At the end it should have been more about the goal rather than making everyone happy.

Shanks can take out 100,000 of these people just using King's haki, Luffy 50,000 and you think they wouldn't be fodder in a war where people like Whitebeard, Marco, Blackbeard, many Vice-Admirals, and 3 Admirals are involved in?

Darth

@mary:

Kizaru was just having fun

With just half face and with that hole in his chest Whitebeard kicked Teach's ass. What more and better for himself could Akainu possibly do?

As I said, when Whitebeard collapsed for a first time, coughing up blood and all, Akainu should have gone for the head, not chest. I'm quite sure even Whitebeard could not survive having his entire head blow away by magma.

desa

Rayleigh didn't use haki on the strawhats.

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@Darth:

As I said, when Whitebeard collapsed for a first time, coughing up blood and all, Akainu should have gone for the head, not chest. I'm quite sure even Whitebeard could not survive having his entire head blow away by magma.

He just didn't think about the head at the moment.

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@TheGreatestSwordsman:

They really weren't quite strong. Half his crew in his own ship was taken out by Shanks with haki when he first came to the ship, and Rayleigh couldn't take out even the weakling trio with his haki when first introduced. They may not be as weak as your average joe pirate, but it was obvious they were in the way. I am really unsure why you are asking about his tactic, did you not bother reading half of the post you yourself quoted? Completely skip it over since your next question is what's more effective? Go reread the post again, because there's no reason I should copy & past what I wrote for you when it's written on something you yourself quoted.

If you take out the 4 Admirals and Garp out of the equation, he could have taken out everybody without a whole lot of hassle. Regardless of them being there, not being able to use his power effectively because his own pirates that were in this war ahead of him.. because you had many Vice Admirals, 3 Admirals, a Fleet Admiral and Garp on that side, every other Marine is fodder in comparison. When you put some of the strongest people in a war and compare them to some strong guys, it's obvious that all those numbers don't amount to much. Symbolically it was beautiful, Whitebeard as person it's easy why he is such a fantastic character and my favorite Yonko by far. But from a tactical point of view, that was some atrocious planning. At the end it should have been more about the goal rather than making everyone happy.

Shanks can take out 100,000 of these people just using King's haki, Luffy 50,000 and you think they wouldn't be fodder in a war where people like Whitebeard, Marco, Blackbeard, many Vice-Admirals, and 3 Admirals are involved in?

Rayleigh didn't use haki on the strawhats.
Zoro commented on how the fishmen weren't high ranked marine which was the case of those at marineford.

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@TheGreatestSwordsman:

They really weren't quite strong. Half his crew in his own ship was taken out by Shanks with haki when he first came to the ship, and Rayleigh couldn't take out even the weakling trio with his haki when first introduced. They may not be as weak as your average joe pirate, but it was obvious they were in the way. I am really unsure why you are asking about his tactic, did you not bother reading half of the post you yourself quoted? Completely skip it over since your next question is what's more effective? Go reread the post again, because there's no reason I should copy & past what I wrote for you when it's written on something you yourself quoted.

If you take out the 4 Admirals and Garp out of the equation, he could have taken out everybody without a whole lot of hassle. Regardless of them being there, not being able to use his power effectively because his own pirates that were in this war ahead of him.. because you had many Vice Admirals, 3 Admirals, a Fleet Admiral and Garp on that side, every other Marine is fodder in comparison. When you put some of the strongest people in a war and compare them to some strong guys, it's obvious that all those numbers don't amount to much. Symbolically it was beautiful, Whitebeard as person it's easy why he is such a fantastic character and my favorite Yonko by far. But from a tactical point of view, that was some atrocious planning. At the end it should have been more about the goal rather than making everyone happy.

Shanks can take out 100,000 of these people just using King's haki, Luffy 50,000 and you think they wouldn't be fodder in a war where people like Whitebeard, Marco, Blackbeard, many Vice-Admirals, and 3 Admirals are involved in?

Rayleigh didn't use haki on the strawhats.
Zoro commented on how the fishmen weren't high ranked marine which was the case of those at marineford.

Carmilla

@Darth:

As I said, when Whitebeard collapsed for a first time, coughing up blood and all, Akainu should have gone for the head, not chest. I'm quite sure even Whitebeard could not survive having his entire head blow away by magma.

I meant when he went for a head it didn't do much either..

TheGreatestSwordsman

@desa:

Rayleigh didn't use haki on the strawhats.

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He just didn't think about the head at the moment.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Rayleigh didn't use haki on the strawhats.
Zoro commented on how the fishmen weren't high ranked marine which was the case of those at marineford.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

Rayleigh didn't use haki on the strawhats.
Zoro commented on how the fishmen weren't high ranked marine which was the case of those at marineford.

How do you know that he didn't use haki on the Strawhats? Why wouldn't he test them?! Interesting about fishmen comment, did not know this. It's still hard to take any of them seriously to be honest. Especially when Law has to move his mouth and one hand while taking out an entire ship of New World marines, which you would imagine are higher quality than the rest in Paradise.

desa

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

How do you know that he didn't use haki on the Strawhats? Why wouldn't he test them?! Interesting about fishmen comment, did not know this. It's still hard to take any of them seriously to be honest. Especially when Law has to move his mouth and one hand while taking out an entire ship of New World marines, which you would imagine are higher quality than the rest in Paradise.

Because he isn't going to KO the one helping his friend. Plus the fact he was waiting for them and being related to Shanks. Plus not commenting on the whole not even flinching. Plus the fact they didn't sense a thing.
Law is a shichibukai (those guys who gets VA as hype material ) and possess a devil fruit that makes everything look easy.

wolfwood

G5 is the exact opposite of an elite unit. It's the dumping ground of the Marines.

That said they are probably tougher than any unit from the four blue seas.

TheGreatestSwordsman

@desa:

Because he isn't going to KO the one helping his friend. Plus the fact he was waiting for them and being related to Shanks. Plus not commenting on the whole not even flinching. Plus the fact they didn't sense a thing.
Law is a shichibukai (those guys who gets VA as hype material ) and possess a devil fruit that makes everything look easy.

No one commented on sensing anything other than one of Law's crewmates. Does that mean Rayleigh only targeted him out of every other pirate that didn't say anything? I know Law's fruit makes things easy but trying to play normal marines as anything than fodder at this point is beyond silly. They would get crushed by anyone and ripped apart in a manner of seconds, including the tough marines during the war. This does not change that throwing them to go first and not being able to use a devastating power that could have turned the war around.. or rather the battlefield itself was rather weird. Destroyed nearly the entire ground and then having a several hundred fishmen dominate the water would have given him a bigger advantage than what he did. At this point, it's difficult to think of a tactic that Whitebeard could have done that would have been dumber than the one he chose.

There's absolutely no indication that Rayleigh specifically didn't use haki on the SH but did on everyone else.

@wolfwood:

G5 is the exact opposite of an elite unit. It's the dumping ground of the Marines.

That said they are probably tougher than any unit from the four blue seas.

I don't really see the logic in having stronger marines in Paradise than New World, where Akainu is stocking up troops and even moving his main HQ there. Regardless of power level differences, it's doubtful that there are considerably stronger elite forces of normal ranked marines running around compared to G5 marines who only sail in the New World. They're all generally weak at this point in time during the story.

desa

Rayleigh see the strawhats pirates the ones he was waiting for defending his friend. He observe the situation say he understands and after knocking almost everyone comment on Kidd pirate crew and Heart pirate crew they must be good to have resist his power.I really don't see what makes people think of Rayleigh blasting the strawhats also. If he was testing them he would make a comment once they have pass or Usopp would have sense something.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Those from HQ are the most powerful while those at G5 are the most barbarians. At marineford they took their best marines so I suppose they are worth something. They can always help at a critical moment.

TheGreatestSwordsman

@desa:

Rayleigh see the strawhats pirates the ones he was waiting for defending his friend. He observe the situation say he understands and after knocking almost everyone comment on Kidd pirate crew and Heart pirate crew they must be good to have resist his power.I really don't see what makes people think of Rayleigh blasting the strawhats also. If he was testing them he would make a comment once they have pass or Usopp would have sense something.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Those from HQ are the most powerful while those at G5 are the most barbarians. At marineford they took their best marines so I suppose they are worth something. They can always help at a critical moment.

In other words, this is "I like to think it happened this way, instead of what you think". Just as you see it that way, I see it as Rayleigh wanting to test Luffy's crew by using his haki on them and seeing if their will is strong enough to follow the one wears the strawhat. Also, do we have indication that someone knows when they are being haki blasted when it doesn't affect them, because I remember no such instance.

They didn't take all the toughest marines otherwise someone like Vergo would have been there.

desa

I'm not saying that Rayleigh for sure didn't blast them. But that it isn't obvious that he did. He saw a friendly bunch helping a friend. And none of the parties commented on that. And on a personal note I have a hard time believing Rayleigh 's haki not even being notice by Usopp. They surely took the toughest from each ranks.

AlucarDraculA

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

In other words, this is "I like to think it happened this way, instead of what you think". Just as you see it that way, I see it as Rayleigh wanting to test Luffy's crew by using his haki on them and seeing if their will is strong enough to follow the one wears the strawhat. Also, do we have indication that someone knows when they are being haki blasted when it doesn't affect them, because I remember no such instance.

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2611-11/one-piece/chapter-504.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2611-12/one-piece/chapter-504.html

He indicates that he targeted the Heart and Kid pirates with his Haki and Law's crewmate says that he almost lost consciousness.

Whereas Usopp's only reaction is confusion as to what happened, clearly oblivious to the Haki.
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2610-17/one-piece/chapter-503.html

TheGreatestSwordsman

@AlucarDraculA:

http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2611-11/one-piece/chapter-504.html
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2611-12/one-piece/chapter-504.html

He indicates that he targeted the Heart and Kid pirates with his Haki and Law's crewmate says that he almost lost consciousness.

Whereas Usopp's only reaction is confusion as to what happened, clearly oblivious to the Haki.
http://www.mangapanda.com/103-2610-17/one-piece/chapter-503.html

But that's the question mark here, do you know if you are being hit with King's haki? Because if not, he still wouldn't be able to tell?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@desa:

I'm not saying that Rayleigh for sure didn't blast them. But that it isn't obvious that he did. He saw a friendly bunch helping a friend. And none of the parties commented on that. And on a personal note I have a hard time believing Rayleigh 's haki not even being notice by Usopp. They surely took the toughest from each ranks.

What do you mean notice, as in if he hit him with haki, he would at least waver or rather that someone should notice when they get hit by King's haki?!

desa

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

What do you mean notice, as in if he hit him with haki, he would at least waver or rather that someone should notice when they get hit by King's haki?!

Yeah I expect him to at least feel dizzy or something.

SkyDewa

yep, rayleigh didn't use Haki on the Strawhats. Nuff said :ninja:

wolfwood

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

I don't really see the logic in having stronger marines in Paradise than New World, where Akainu is stocking up troops and even moving his main HQ there. Regardless of power level differences, it's doubtful that there are considerably stronger elite forces of normal ranked marines running around compared to G5 marines who only sail in the New World. They're all generally weak at this point in time during the story.

Well G5 is made up of the undisciplined, incompetent or just plain crazy folk of the Marines.

Makes perfect sense to me that an elite unit under Hina for instance, operating in paradise, is better than the bottom of the barrel in the new world.

King Cannon

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

There's absolutely no indication that Rayleigh specifically didn't use haki on the SH but did on everyone else.

Actually, the fact that he pointed out that the Kid and Heart Pirates resisted it is a good indicator.

Basically, he knew who was with the Straw Hats and who wasn't.

knceng

@King:

Actually, the fact that he pointed out that the Kid and Heart Pirates resisted it is a good indicator.

Basically, he knew who was with the Straw Hats and who wasn't.

Except he doesn't know a thing about the new crew, Brook.

King Cannon

@knceng:

Except he doesn't know a thing about the new crew, Brook.

The Straw Hats were all grouped around Hachi (except Franky, who was looking for keys in the backstage). He just had to put 2 and 2 together.

Shadowgreed

@TheGreatestSwordsman:

But that's the question mark here, do you know if you are being hit with King's haki? Because if not, he still wouldn't be able to tell?

You actually know when you're being hit by Conqueror's haki, we can see this when Luffy hit Hody back in Fishman Island.

[hide][/hide]

God of Skypeia

@King:

The Straw Hats were all grouped around Hachi (except Franky, who was looking for keys in the backstage). He just had to put 2 and 2 together.

Is that Broly mixed with an Audino?