Dragonball Discussion

[Wrath of Enel]

@RobbyBevard:

Given the stats they clocked out on Superman when he's at his badly written max, Superman would still be ridiculously unstoppable.

I've always held that Goku would beat Superman in a fight since he fights planet/galaxy destroying level opponents… but apparently while Superman never fights enemies at that level, he himself is several magnitudes beyond that... which makes all his fights even that much stupider.

(Supes is generally written much, much weaker than planet crunching... but... gotta use the most extreme data available I guess)

I still refuse to believe Superman would win against planet bursters…

[Aaronrules380]

To be fair, isn't Superman's power source the earth's sun (I remember hearing this somewhere, don't actually read comics). If so, a planet buster could probably beat him without kryptonite if they destroyed the sun first. That said, Goku wouldn't ever do that since beyond the obscurity of that info is the fact that goku is an idiot

Also, considering Freeza was a planet buster (in his weakest form which was less the 1% of his true power level)and even just cell was many times stronger than Freiza, before getting into stuff like Bu, I'd say Goku was many magnitudes beyond planet/galaxy buster by the end of the series, not even counting the super saiyan god form

[Robby]

@Wrath:

I still refuse to believe Superman would win against planet bursters…

26 minutes in they present the math. It's… ridiculous.

Supes is usually written pretty weak so his opponents can fight him, but... he's been given some crazy... probably by writers that DIDN'T do the math or realize how overpowered that is. (For example, flying to the sun in 2 minutes or surviving a supernova)

[Wrath of Enel]

@RobbyBevard:

26 minutes in they present the math. It's… ridiculous.

Supes is usually written pretty weak so his opponents can fight him, but... he's been given some crazy... probably by writers that DIDN'T do the math or realize how overpowered that is.

So yeah, all his enemies and fights really mean nothing then….lame..

[Friend of Luffy and Gon]

Actually it can depend on the writer. My personal favorite Superman story was All Star Superman, where Superman was at his strongest. Having said that it was written by Grant Morrison, so yeah the writer's ability can be a factor. Usually though the more powerful he is the more of a brick he is though.

[Robby]

Basically, it boils down to… Goku can blow up a planet... But Superman can pull a planet.

[Sander]

A planet?

[Aaronrules380]

Ok my problem with some of there calculations is that they judge Goku's base abilities based on early points in the z series, when his base strength before saiyan has risen constantly since. For example his strength based on 40 tons in his base form at 100 times gravity. THey don't sy where they got it, so I'll assume that's from context that those numbers were from when he was training on the way to Namek. THe problem is his base form power increased dramatically since then, beyond just super form multipliers. If we use power levels, goku's shot up from 90000 right at that point to 3 million after his near death when he started fighting freiza. THat's a 30 times multiplier. And he trained even more after that in the series (plus had plenty more near death moments and even a second death), so its fair to assume even his base form was AT LEAST 1000 times stronger (I'm assuming a near death experience is equivalent to at least 10 times increase in strength)than it was when he beat freiza. THe durability calculation is even worse, since Goku using Kaioken times 4 had a power level of 32000. So if we assume there ki outut thing is correct (which assumes that Goku isn't using any ki to keep himself in place), if we adjust for increases in base power Goku's max output with the kamehameha (which technically isn't even his most powerful attack since there's always the spirit bomb) is at LEAST 10 octillion megatons. Superman's durability according to them was at least 10 octillion megatons as well, so its quite possible Goku was just strong enough to win if he used his best attacks. If you factor in growth in base form, Goku does still lose in brute strength by a lot, by he vastly exceeds superman's speed and at least matches his durability, plus GOku's trumps have always been ki attacks

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Honestly, I don't think you can really use the most extreme values for Superman since those fluctuate due to huge holes in comic book continuity. I'm no expert, but it sounds like there's been a lot of contradictions on just what Superman's upper limits are since he's handled by many writers. I feel like it'd be more fair to take an average of many writers, or take the most consistent level he's shown at. I'd discount stuff that wasn't canon from DB as well. If you take the most extreme values from all of superman's incarnations, of course he'll win since he's had an incredibly high amount of incarnations across several different mediums. Excluding non-canon stuff, GOku's been done by 1 writer. I mean, both are ridiculously overpowered,, but I just don't think you can fairly compare a character with a single incarnation by a single writer and a character with the best of dozens of incarnations by tons of writers

[Cyan D. Funk]

Does the villain have a pretty minion, a minion with weird powers, and a tough + stupid minion

[Sander]

@Cyan:

Does the villain have a pretty minion, a minion with weird powers, and a tough + stupid minion

A pretty minion

[Bill]

@Aaronrules380:

To be fair, isn't Superman's power source the earth's sun (I remember hearing this somewhere, don't actually read comics).

Interestingly, Supes powers didn't originally come from the sun. Kryptonians had their powers on their home planet in the golden age. Later incarnations retconned that to have the source of his powers be the sun.

[Crossword]

I thought that it was just any old yellow star.

[Aaronrules380]

@Bill:

Interestingly, Supes powers didn't originally come from the sun. Kryptonians had their powers on their home planet in the golden age. Later incarnations retconned that to have the source of his powers be the sun.

Thats kind of ridiculous. If Kryptonians were all as strong as superman while on their planet and superman is able to withstand supernovas, how the hell did the kryptonians die? I mean, I guess that's why they retconned it though

[Venomous Warden]

Ok so i thought the KFC promotions were out there, but now weve reached the next level


[Sander]

@Venomous:

Ok so i thought the KCF promotions were out there, but now weve reached the next level

[http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/Saccitysaleen/Keith images album/super-saiyan-fries_zps39d9f212.jpg](http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/Saccitysaleen/Keith images album/super-saiyan-fries_zps39d9f212.jpg)

Ha ha ha.

Good one.

[Demon Rin]

@RobbyBevard:

(Supes is generally written much, much weaker than planet crunching… but... gotta use the most extreme data available I guess)

Yeah, honestly, I liked that video and they basically maxed out Superman's powers and all, but Superman being written differently (Over almost a century by countless different people) than Son Goku (Over only about 10 years, by the same guy and maybe a few bits added by the 90s staff at Toei) means the fight was always going to be tipped towards Superman because of specifically that.

However, the actual answer to the question of "Who would win, Son Goku or Superman" is "It depends on how powerful Superman is being written this week".

[Robby]

@Sander:

A planet?
[qimg]http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/43212/1326912-superman_sa_super.jpg[/qimg]

That's pre-crisis, that doesn't count!

@Aaronrules380:

For example his strength based on 40 tons in his base form at 100 times gravity. THey don't sy where they got it, so I'll assume that's from context that those numbers were from when he was training on the way to Namek.

No, Goku struggling with 40 tons was end series Buu saga. (And on King Kai's planet, and the gravity was accounted for to make the 40 tons.) The SS multipliers are based on databook multipliers. All their math comes from the end of the series, then uses a gravity multiplier to figure things like his speed based on other examples… which is what they have to do since there's no clear comparison of say, Goku travelling a distance like say, how long it takes him to get to the sun and back.

So they have to use the only long run distance they have available which was the snake way stint, which then then use the gravity multiplier to account for his increases over the years.

The math is legit. Even if you feel they're underestimating Goku.... You can add another ten 0's to the end of all Goku's stats and they still comes short of Supes'.

[Aaronrules380]

I guess. However there's still one more issue that comes up: Does Ki count as magic or as a natural force? Superman's immunity doesn't extend to supernatural forces, so if you classify ki as a sort of magic, than superman's durability would be useless against ki attacks and he'd probably lose

[maxterdexter]

You should use DC animated cannon Superman as the base Strenght. I belive that's the most known Superman level. (And personaly, the most balanced one)

[Robby]

Ki is natural life force. It's not magic.

To try and pass it off as magic is uhm… completely missing a basic cultural concept for billions of people.

@maxterdexter:

You should use DC animated cannon Superman as the base Strenght. I belive that's the most known Superman level. (And personaly, the most balanced one)

They powered him WAAAAAAY the hell down to keep him interesting.

And they were totally right to do so.

But if you're going to do a fair fight, you can't just pick and choose the version you want, you have to go with the strongest version available in the main canon (in this case, the comic.)

Yeah, Goku completely manhandles cartoon Supes. He doesn't even need to go Super for that guy. Cartoon Supes is maybe Raditz level. (But then they get to testing his weight lifting abilities in a lab and you start getting a crazy number there…)

[Aaronrules380]

Honestly though, if you get to pick outlier representations of superman's strength rather than the level its been most consistently shown at, then the whole thing becomes pointless. Because the nature of canonicity is so hazy in superhero comics, using every incarnation of superman to judge his strength is like using fanfiction to judge Goku's. Different writers have different ideas and they contradict each other so often that its hard to say what is actually right in the end

[Cyan D. Funk]

Silver Age Superman is essentially a walking GOD, so I can see why factoring him in would produce issues.

[Demon Rin]

@maxterdexter:

You should use DC animated cannon Superman as the base Strength. I believe that's the most known Superman level. (And personally, the most balanced one)

Then they'd be pretty evenly matched. During the Final episode, Supes "Cut Loose" and was ping-ponging Darkseid around Metropolis like a rag doll. He stated he was showing "Just how powerful" he "Really" is. That level was just about on-par with Son. That'd be a good straight up fight.

However, Superman has such wildly inconsistent powers that it's really a crapshoot. He's basically as powerful as the plot needs him to be. That's Superman's major problem. It's exactly why this question is impossible to answer.

[Aaronrules380]

@RobbyBevard:

Ki is natural life force. It's not magic.

To try and pass it off as magic is uhm… completely missing a basic cultural concept for billions of people.

They powered him WAAAAAAY the hell down to keep him interesting.

And they were totally right to do so.

But if you're going to do a fair fight, you can't just pick and choose the version you want, you have to go with the strongest version available in the main canon (in this case, the comic.)

Yeah, Goku completely manhandles cartoon Supes. He doesn't even need to go Super for that guy. Cartoon Supes is maybe Raditz level. (But then they get to testing his weight lifting abilities in a lab and you start getting a crazy number there...)

I kind of disagree. The best way to judge a character whose power is as variable and inconsistent as superman is to judge on the most consistently used incarnations, not the outliers.

[maxterdexter]

I'd say that it's best to use the most known power level.

Also, if Ki is biologic energy, Superman is vulnerable (should be kind of resistent) to electricity, livewire and that guy from the Elite movie manage to hurt him like that.

[Robby]

@Aaronrules380:

I kind of disagree. The best way to judge a character whose power is as variable and inconsistent as superman is to judge on the most consistently used incarnations, not the outliers.

They're actually ignoring the outliers, like the things that take place in the future or alternate realities. They're only using stuff from the main continuity.

Where yes, there's writer fluctation, but… Superman pushed to his limits CAN take a supernova or pull a planet. Its not something he does everyday... but Goku doesn't fight Maijin Buu every day either. Gohan went Super 2 and defeated Cell... but he then went on to have a few adventures as Saiyaman against fairly pathetic criminals . It wasn't a challenge for him in his day to day, but its what he did most of the time. Wasn't an example of his utter limits at all though.

You can't just ignore a fact because it inconveniences your side.

Otherwise you can stipulate it to be "Well, Superman when he fought Doomsday clearly wasn't as strong as he was shown to be later a few times, so he'd lose to Goku" is about as fair as saying you can't count Goku going Super 3 because he only used it a couple times as an extreme. You can even go "Well I think the math should be this because its what makes sense to me" and ignore the official databooks, but... that's ignoring the official databooks.

You can pick and choose if you want the most even best fight possible, in which case you say "Animated Superman versus pre-Raditz Goku" but... if you want to know who would win? You take the best showings they have.

[Aaronrules380]

Just curious, but how often does Superman face any kind of struggle in his comics? Because it really only works if Superman beats everyone ever without breaking a sweat. You can argue he isn't using his full power, but then if he's only using a small fraction of his full power no one should ever really be able to pose any sort of threat to him (except with kryptonite or magic I guess). And ultimately I'd argue that the difference i that there are essentially a ton of different versions (and I'm not talking about alternate realities, I'm talking within a single continuity) of superman, and so its hard to consider him a single character. Its why I'm not a fan of superhero comics. When you have a million different writers writing the character and pretty much nobody cares about or can keep track of continuity, it's essentially becomes no different from fan fiction.

[Robby]

@Aaronrules380:

Just curious, but how often does Superman face any kind of struggle in his comics?

Generally the struggle comes more from protecting others than it does from actually punching out the badguy.

It's why Lois falls from great heights so often.

[Aaronrules380]

Still doesn't work well. If he can move at many times the speed of light at his best, moving fast enough to stop a bullet or whatever before its even fired should be no sweat. Even with a ton of people using guns at point blank range against a ton of civilians, there really shouldn't be an issue.

[Robby]

There's a difference between moving super fast in a straight line through space, and moving super fast between thousands of monster enemy soldiers and aliens with powers of their own.

Besides, the constant sonic booms would cause property damage.

Besides, the same can largely be said about Goku. Overpowered most of the time, so it should be boring… but its not. Its about execution.

[Aaronrules380]

Honestly I do think GOku got powerful to the point where it just stopped being impressive after Freiza. After a certain point it just becomes ridiculous because after you've destroyed planets, it becomes harder to make anything really seem bigger. Honestly the power escalation in DB was ridiculous and one of its biggest flaws to be honest. And even then, the only reason Goku kind of worked is because Toriyama pulled out a ton of beings as or more powerful (which presents other issues) and its not like we ever got a big arc where the power levels of everyone else were scaled down again. And Superman's been doing this for what, around 80 years? Honestly, its boring, and since the only real characters in DC who seem like they could be a match for Superman are alternate versions of himself, it just makes him really boring and eliminates any real drama.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

ANother note is that dbz training arcs for Goku have never made sense for me. Wouldn't it be far easier to just have someone continuously blast him to near death and then revive him with a sensu bean? Or have dende heal him for that matter? We already know that can cause massive power spikes because of Vegeta doing it during the fight with Freiza. I mean, I guess Goku likes fighting so he'd probably be opposed to doing it too much unless there was an enemy he had to beat, but why he didn't use that method to get stronger than guys like Cell still makes no sense to me

[Bill]

Here's why Goku can't beat Supes: Goku can't survive in space. Supes can. Though I need to note I'm referring to the comic versions and film versions(not the Timm animated series where if I remember correctly he used a space suit)

So Supes automatically wins. Can we stop this conversation now?

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@RobbyBevard:

There's a difference between moving super fast in a straight line through space, and moving super fast between thousands of monster enemy soldiers and aliens with powers of their own.

Besides, the constant sonic booms would cause property damage.

Besides, the same can largely be said about Goku. Overpowered most of the time, so it should be boring… but its not. Its about execution.

Yeah, while Superman is overpowered he still has his weakness Kryptonite to balance it off. Goku has no weakness(except his tail, but even then he doesn't have it anymore)

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Aaronrules380:

Just curious, but how often does Superman face any kind of struggle in his comics? Because it really only works if Superman beats everyone ever without breaking a sweat. You can argue he isn't using his full power, but then if he's only using a small fraction of his full power no one should ever really be able to pose any sort of threat to him (except with kryptonite or magic I guess). And ultimately I'd argue that the difference i that there are essentially a ton of different versions (and I'm not talking about alternate realities, I'm talking within a single continuity) of superman, and so its hard to consider him a single character. Its why I'm not a fan of superhero comics. When you have a million different writers writing the character and pretty much nobody cares about or can keep track of continuity, it's essentially becomes no different from fan fiction.

True. But its called officiated fan-fiction, though if we we're to take canon strictly from the interpretation that its about the original authors then the first Siegel/Shuster Superman(the one who coulnd't fly, just jumped and killed people voluntarily) would technically be the only one that matters. Superman does face struggles, but that's more on the internal side of things. He's the lone survivor of an extinct alien race who has trouble fitting in. He can be lonely, depressed and angry when people he cares about gets hurt. Don't forget Kryptonite.

He's a really hard character to write.

[Cyan D. Funk]

Kingdom Come has the best Superman, just putting that out there

[Universalshadow]

This guy sums up pretty well why he disagrees with the Death Battle and debunks their math.

http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-battle-erred-goku-vs-superman

BTW in his new Super Saiyan God form Goku can survive and fight in space.

[Megadoomer]

@Aaronrules380:

ANother note is that dbz training arcs for Goku have never made sense for me. Wouldn't it be far easier to just have someone continuously blast him to near death and then revive him with a sensu bean? Or have dende heal him for that matter? We already know that can cause massive power spikes because of Vegeta doing it during the fight with Freiza. I mean, I guess Goku likes fighting so he'd probably be opposed to doing it too much unless there was an enemy he had to beat, but why he didn't use that method to get stronger than guys like Cell still makes no sense to me

Presumably, Goku wouldn't see that as actually improving himself, (if he was even aware of that attribute of Saiyans) or by the end of the series, the increase would be so negligible that it wouldn't be worth it.

[Bill]

The primary flaw with that death battle thing is the evidence they use. They take into account GT and the movies of all things, which isn't even canon especially most of the movies that can't possibly fit into the normal DB continuity.
The only purest source is the Dragonball manga, unlike Superman there is one definitive, Goku. Superman is great character, but he isn't really someone to pair since he's written by multiple people each who have their own ideas of how strong he should be. Also they use stuff from other incarnations of Supes like significantly weaker Timm verse one(who even Sayian arc Goku can beat).

Lets not forget Toriyama views the movies as an "alternate universe." Separate from his universe which is the manga. They should have strictly stuck to the manga of DB.

[pyromonki]

holy balls, I hate vs. arguments.

The only thing I want to discuss is that "speed calculation" Death Battle made.

That can't possibly be right. Vegeta flying at full speed SSJ to reach Super Cell was NOT light speed, if it were light speed, I highly doubt Goku would offer instant transmission to even get him there.

I can agree with the strength calculations, but I don't think anyone in the series moves that fast.

You could argue the ki attacks, but they move at such inconsistent speeds.

@Aaronrules380:

ANother note is that dbz training arcs for Goku have never made sense for me. Wouldn't it be far easier to just have someone continuously blast him to near death and then revive him with a sensu bean? Or have dende heal him for that matter? We already know that can cause massive power spikes because of Vegeta doing it during the fight with Freiza. I mean, I guess Goku likes fighting so he'd probably be opposed to doing it too much unless there was an enemy he had to beat, but why he didn't use that method to get stronger than guys like Cell still makes no sense to me

This apparently stopped working as well as it should, since Trunks fought the andriods a second time in the future and STILL got his ass kicked.

It also didn't help Super Cell very much, all it did was make him able to hurt Gohan.

Gohan overpowered a FULL powered rejuvinated Super Cell with only half of his ki, if even that.

I can imagine that idea was written out for that EXACT reason you just said. It's LAME.

Vegeta considering it as an option is more than enough for me, and I was glad to see Freeza catch on and snuff it.

[Bill]

Oh shit, peoples don't let this become like that awful OBD section in the narutofan. Lets lay this discussion to rest. Okay?

The real answer is that both Goku is a fictional character who's only in one universe, with one canon written and drawn by one guy, while Superman is a character who lives in many universes, many people write him and draw him.

You can't really pair them since its pointless.

[Kaboom]

I'm one of the biggest Dragon Ball fans around, but I still realize that even if Goku were a million times stronger than ScrewAttack's estimation of him, he still wouldn't measure up to the insanely crazy crap that Superman can do. That's not fanboyism, that's just plain hard facts. People need to get over it.

Now, how 'bout that new DBZ movie? Here's some other spoilery tidbits straight from kei17, our man on the inside at Kanzenshuu:

! * "Gods have their holy power that cannot be sensed by humans including Saiyans, and you can have such power by becoming SSJG. I think this explains why only Piccolo could somewhat sense Kaioshin's power at Tenkaichi Budokai…"

• "IIRC, Super Saiyan God looked like this. http://i.imgur.com/Nl2xzv5.jpg Goku's body became thinner."
• "FYI, Gohan does transform to SSJ when the six Saiyans gather their power, and there was a flashback of Birusu using King Vegeta as a steppingstone."

…And he started a bulleted more in-depth summary of the film, the first part of which you can read here. The rest will be coming later.

[Robby]

The Saiyan near-death mechanic was only useful for relatively low levels, jumping a few thousand points at a go. Once powers started reaching the millions and training in super high gravity became the norm, the upgrade was completely insignificant. (Since characters were wounded or died plenty even after Namek, but never again commented on the boost, it must have become pretty negligible. Plus, its not a fullfilling way to train.)

[pyromonki]

@RobbyBevard:

The Saiyan near-death mechanic was only useful for relatively low levels, jumping a few thousand points at a go. Once powers started reaching the millions and training in super high gravity became the norm, the upgrade was completely insignificant. (Since characters were wounded or died plenty even after Namek, but never again commented on the boost, it must have become pretty negligible. Plus, its not a fullfilling way to train.)

Cell did comment on the boost, but it didn't even help him that much since a wounded Gohan bested him when he stopped holding back.

All I believe it did was make Cell WAY stronger than USSJ (or whatever you want to call that bulky form), since I remember Perfect Cell saying Trunks was a threat but he was too slow right?

Super Perfect Cell beat him with a finger beam.

[maxterdexter]

! Wait, 6 saiyans? Pan or future Trunks?

[Kaboom]

@maxterdexter:

! Wait, 6 saiyans? Pan or future Trunks?

! The 6th pure-hearted Saiyan is li'l unborn Pan.
! Dende discovers her earlier, while healing a gunshot wound Videl received in the leg from a stray shot from Mai whom Gohan asked to shoot him while drunk and showing off in his Saiyaman outfit.
! You can thank Toriyama for all the movie's wacky humor. Apparently the first drafts were pretty dark and ultra-serious, and he was all like, "oh no you don't" and stepped in and got all Dr. Slump up in that biznatch.

[JulieYBM]

This post is deleted!

[Sander]

@Kaboom:

! Dende discovers her earlier

TFS willl probably have field day with this movie…

[Strawhat Chan]

Poor Kaioushin(s). They couldn't even beat Buu, and now there's an entity FAR stronger than him. They simply cannot compare.

[pyromonki]

@Strawhat:

Poor Kaioushin(s). They couldn't even beat Buu, and now there's an entity FAR stronger than him. They simply cannot compare.

I thought them being so weak was supposed to be the "joke" so to speak.

But their incompetence speaks no bounds.

[kouch_lee]

Well, the weaker ones were supposedly strong enough to defeat someone like Freezer, once the strongest being in the entire universe, with a single punch. South Kaioh, strong enough to fight with Kid Boo and force him to absorb him (and trigger "Buff Buu"), could probably kill Freeza by sneezing or something like this.

They aren't that weak.

[Strawhat Chan]

@kouch_lee:

Well, the weaker ones were supposedly strong enough to defeat someone like Freezer, once the strongest being in the entire universe, with a single punch. South Kaioh, strong enough to fight with Kid Boo and force him to absorb him (and trigger "Buff Buu"), could probably kill Freeza by sneezing or something like this.

They aren't that weak.

Yeah, but they're far weaker than the "God of Destruction" who is kinda supposed to be the opposite of them, and not so much stronger than them that he can be considered as THEIR god.

Then again, perhaps Bills can also destroy stars without much effort, which would really make him so powerful (since to destroy our sun it takes over 3 billion times the energy required to destroy the earth, which is either way way too insane even for DB).

[kouch_lee]

@Strawhat:

Yeah, but they're far weaker than the "God of Destruction" who is kinda supposed to be the opposite of them, and not so much stronger than them that he can be considered as THEIR god.

Then again, perhaps Bills can also destroy stars without much effort, which would really make him so powerful (since to destroy our sun it takes over 3 billion times the energy required to destroy the earth, which is either way way too insane even for DB).

Well, maybe the Gods are more like super healers and the Gods (of destruction)are super destroyers. . .Or something. . .

It's true though, that there always seems to be an imbalance between the forces of destruction and the gods, specially in Dragon Ball.

But my point was more that they are indeed strong: they could've super easily destroyed Freeza, and he was for decades the biggest threat in the entire universe.

Just that Boo and the way the Super Saiyans evolved were absurdly strong.