@Стрелок:
Because I didn't answer you in 2 minutes I don't know it? Are you that delusional?
It was about over 10 minutes. And… yet... you've still haven't answered it. Don't have the facts to back up your claims?
Por supuesto que no le~
@Стрелок:
Because I didn't answer you in 2 minutes I don't know it? Are you that delusional?
It was about over 10 minutes. And… yet... you've still haven't answered it. Don't have the facts to back up your claims?
Por supuesto que no le~
But you claimed meat have always been the main source of energy for mankind.
Also, I looked up Paleo Diet as you suggested, from wikipedia on the subject:
"The paleolithic diet […] is a modern nutritional plan based on the presumed ancient diet"
"The paleolithic diet is a controversial topic amongst some dietitians and anthropologists, and an article on the National Health Service of the United Kingdom Choices website refers to it as a fad diet."
I fail to see how it has anything to do with the main energy source for humans…
Read more carefully.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
It was about over 10 minutes. And… yet... you've still haven't answered it. Don't have the facts to back up your claims?
Por supuesto que no le~
The problem with most studies is that they compare vegetarians to people who eat shit food. I am busy now, so later I will post something. For the time educate yourself on the topic of nutrition. The number was just to show that the majority of vegetarians have deficiencies.
@Panda:
But this thread is for discussion about eating vegetarian. You know who your posts do hurt? The poor guy that started this thread with that intention for it, only to watch it be consumed by this argument you've started. Have some decency here, make your own thread if it's something you feel so strongly about, and leave this guy's alone.
Actually, I'm glad he brought this up, as I don't get to deal with idiots very often.
@Стрелок:
1. How do you know they aren't? The "most of the healthiest forms can be found in vegetables" is a joke, seriously. You know almost nothing about nutrition.
I know because I'm about to turn 22 and 19 years of my life were vegetarian, and I was never healthier and never felt better when I was, which is why I'm going back. And my parents are extremely healthy vegetarians who have had no health problems.
2. Can you even read? Where did I say something against vegetables? Where did I say that vegetarian diet is unhealthy?
I asked if you were insinuating. Obviously you don't know what that means. You should look it up. But, because I bet you're too lazy to, I spell it out for you. When I said you were manipulated into eating meat, you're response is that you were not, as "meat is healthy and delicious." Thus, suggesting that vegetables are not healthy and delicious.
Get it?
@Стрелок:
Except that meat and eggs are superior to them. Educate yourself before you argue.
As stated before, meat is healthy, but so are products within the vegan diet. For a parent to have their child initially adopt a vegan diet (and not force them or indoctrinate them to never eat meat) is definitely some good parenting. Now the child is accustomed to eating both if they choose
trabajar en su razonamiento~
@Nex:
Actually, I'm glad he brought this up, as I don't get to deal with idiots very often.
I know because I'm about to turn 22 and 19 years of my life were vegetarian, and I was never healthier and never felt better when I was, which is why I'm going back. And my parents are extremely healthy vegetarians who have had no health problems.
I asked if you were insinuating. Obviously you don't know what that means. You should look it up. But, because I bet you're too lazy to, I spell it out for you. When I said you were manipulated into eating meat, you're response is that you were not, as "meat is healthy and delicious." Thus, suggesting that vegetables are not healthy and delicious.
Get it?
This is simply wrong. And I am sure you have no idea what healthy means.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
As stated before, meat is healthy, but so are products within the vegan diet. For a parent to have their child initially adopt a vegan diet (and not force them or indoctrinate them to never eat meat) is definitely some good parenting. Now the child is accustomed to eating both if they choose
trabajar en su razonamiento~
Sugar is part of the vegan diet and it is unhealthy.
@Стрелок:
This is simply wrong. And I am sure you have no idea what healthy means.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Sugar is part of the vegan diet and it is unhealthy.
FAT IS UNHEALTHY TOO BUT IS NECESSARY IN ANY DIET. Jesus christ. It's called managing what you eat. If you over indulge on anything INCLUDING MEAT, WHICH CAUSES HEART PROBLEMS, will lead to some death by cancer or organ failure. HELL eating too much fish gives you WAYYY too much iron.
And how can that be "wrong" ITS WHAT YOU LITTERALLY TYPED OUT. He just had to explain the discussion. SERIOUSLY!?
Dryish can you just remove him from the thread, he's giving me an aneurysm.
@Стрелок:
Sugar is part of the vegan diet and it is unhealthy.
mira a sí mismo~
Were you not "manipulated" into wearing clothes? I mean.. you weren't born into them, but your parents indoctrinated you into wearing them because, subjectively, it is a good thing. Now with vegan diets, parents "manipulate" their children into engaging in them because vegatables and legumes are overall provide more nutrients than meats.
Are you seriously arguing that you can't get all that you need if you follow a vegetarian diet? It really isn't about what you eat or how much you eat as long as you get all the nutrients that you need, which, as far as I am aware of, has already been proved for numerous times to be the case with balanced vegetarian diets.
I'm honestly intrigued. You'd better come back with some good hard data at some point.
@Стрелок:
Read more carefully.
@Стрелок:
But you were still raised not eating the main source of energy people have eaten since before we can remember.
Admittedly my native language isn't English but it seems quite clear to me. Or are you saying I should read more about some fad diet? I think not. I care very little about such things.
@Стрелок:
Sugar is part of the vegan diet and it is unhealthy.
???
It's not hard to just cut out sugar. Sugar is not specifically involved in the vegan diet. acaba de dejar~
No! You can't be allowed to congregate!
Nah, seriously, I've considered going vegetarian actually, but I can't really afford it. I don't have enough education on the matter either to know how to replenish the lost nutrients from sacrificing meats. But I also love chicken and turkey. :I
@Стрелок:
Except that meat and eggs are superior to them. Educate yourself before you argue.
Except that most meat isn't, unless you're getting free range, due to its processed nature. Plus, meat has a lot of unhealthy fat. Also, the majority of an eggs protein is in its egg whites, and, in the egg yolk, is a lot, and I mean _a lot_ of cholesterol, that is incredible unhealthy if you eat eggs everyday.
Are you seriously arguing that you can't get all that you need if you follow a vegetarian diet? It really isn't about what you eat or how much you eat as long as you get all the nutrients that you need, which, as far as I am aware of, has already been proved for numerous times to be the case with balanced vegetarian diets.
I'm honestly intrigued. You'd better come back with some good hard data at some point.
I already asked him to provide the facts. He said he was going to. Let's see if he actually does…
!no lo hará~
I'm a complete omnivore and my personal belief is that this is the best way to go. I honestly don't think it's considered "Healthy" if your diet requires you to pay attention to your intake of vitamins, amino acids, etc. You have to do extra work to make that diet healthy. Some people can put in the time, effort and expense and I say more power to them as long as they keep those beliefs to themselves. Same for people who are good doing so for their children, except the Vegans who've not kept up on it and greatly malnourished their children as a result. Luckily, most of them get their child taken away by CPS.
To put it another way, I'm an omnivore, I typically have a balanced home cooked meal every night made by my brother. I've never once eaten a food product because of it's vitamin content outside favoring calcium and vitamin C ONLY when I'm sick, and usually I just start drinking orange juice till I'm better. IE I've never once sat in a store and went "Am I getting enough protein?" and started to read labels or anything. I have a medical issue completely unrelated that I've talked about in other threads so I won't discuss it in detail here, but the relevant bit is that it requires I get regular physicals and blood work done, I just got my annual one done a couple of weeks ago actually. And my doctor has never once told me "Chelsea, you have a deficiency in _______"
I'm not saying my diet is the healthiest in the world, I have my vices, namely soda, but my point is I'm not lacking anything and I've achieved this without having to tally my intake of vitamins at all. So I'd say that's pretty good.
But again, if you want to put in the time and effort to do one of these diets yourself, more power to you. Live and let live basically. It's the Vegetarians and Vegans who scream at me because eating a cheese burger to them is tantamount to genocide that piss me off.
I still don't understand how people claim that Vegatarianism has health benefits. Depriving your body of important amino acids is a no no.
@Foxy:
I still don't understand how people claim that Vegatarianism has health benefits. Depriving your body of important amino acids is a no no.
No! You can't be allowed to congregate!
Nah, seriously, I've considered going vegetarian actually, but I can't really afford it. I don't have enough education on the matter either to know how to replenish the lost nutrients from sacrificing meats. But I also love chicken and turkey. :I
I love bacon and other sizzling meats waaaay to much to stay vegetarian for extended periods of time. I just bought a salad for lunch, but it has chicken in it.
I love bacon and other sizzling meats waaaay to much to stay vegetarian for extended periods of time. I just bought a salad for lunch, but it has chicken in it.
Shrimp, cow and pig, these are necessary for happiness.
Shrimp, cow and pig, these are necessary for happiness.
And chicken! no te olvides del pollo~
@Стрелок:
This is simply wrong. And I am sure you have no idea what healthy means.
Simply wrong? No, you're just a troll. Don't know what healthy means? Sure okay. Just keep trollin trollin trollin.
Maybe gets some good hard facts, from respectable sites, then come back and attempt to argue your case like a normal person.
I'm also going to throw camel on that list. I had a camel burger the other week. Sooo tastey.
@Foxy:
I still don't understand how people claim that Vegatarianism has health benefits. Depriving your body of important amino acids is a no no.
So is stuffing yourself with saturated fat acids. How many people actually prefer eating lean meat instead of a fatty steak or a burger for example? Not too many.
And chicken! no te olvides del pollo~
But everything tastes like chicken, ever had crocodile? Chicken, Alligator? Chicken, Camel? Horse. Wait what
I'm also going to throw camel on that list. I had a camel burger the other week. Sooo tastey.
…Wow, I added that last tid bit out of randomness...LOL WHY DO YOU READ MY MIND.
CRAB CAKES! LOTS OF LOTS OF CRAB CAKES!!
muy delicioso~
I'm sorry Nex, I couldn't help it!
So is stuffing yourself with saturated fat acids. How many people actually prefer eating lean meat instead of a fatty steak or a burger for example? Not too many.
The only red meat I eat is steak. Nobody should be eating over-processed fast food meat anyway.
@Foxy:
The only red meat I eat is steak. Nobody should be eating over-processed fast food meat anyway.
Steak huh. So first off from what animal? Then tell me what cut, then we'll get into diatery ;)
CRAB CAKES! LOTS OF LOTS OF CRAB CAKES!!
muy delicioso~
I'm sorry Nex, I couldn't help it!
..I know I'm living in maryland but I absolutely hate crab. Like blah. I can eat sushi no problem though!
Fast food as its own problems independent of being "full of meat" mostly being frozen, cheaply made crap.
Last night my brother made homemade cheeseburgers with fresh high quality ingredients and made everything from scratch. He even bought the meat, seasons and shaped it himself instead of buying pre-made patties. He served them on lightly toasted Ciabatta bread instead of buns.
It was delicious and not greasy at all.
Steak huh. So first off from what animal? Then tell me what cut, then we'll get into diatery ;)
London broil .
@Foxy:
The only red meat I eat is steak. Nobody should be eating over-processed fast food meat anyway.
I don´t know exactly about the English or rather American terms, so i excuse myself in advance.
Steak is not "just" steak obviously, it depends where the cut is from. Rib-eye, T-bone, NY strip, Porterhouse, all are rather fatty, especially concerning the saturated acid.
Fast food as its own problems independent of being "full of meat" mostly being frozen, cheaply made crap.
Last night my brother made homemade cheeseburgers with fresh high quality ingredients and made everything from scratch. He even bought the meat, seasons and shaped it himself instead of buying pre-made patties. He served them on lightly toasted Ciabatta bread instead of buns.
It was delicious and not greasy at all.
I agree. Fast food is a whole other experience on it's own. Sometimes I go to KFC or Burger King just so I can indulge in the greasiness and heart-stopping factors of it all. Es un parque de atracciones~ Not something that should be done everyday.
@Foxy:
London broil .
Flank which is part of a steer's thigh. I'll just summarize with this;
http://www.livestrong.com/article/530327-nutrition-in-london-broil-cut-meat/
@Foxy:
London broil .
That is made of flank steak, right? That amount is ok i guess
I don't think I could ever become a straight vegetarian because cheeseburgers are God's gift to my stomach (same with sausage pizza), but I am really interested in lowering the meat content of my diet. Really just for health reasons. To save money I want to cook with as many raw ingredients as possible, though most stuff is not got to be organic and/or "clean" because it's not readily available where I live right now. It's so intimidating though .___. It would be nice to have more healthy veggie-dishes in my repertoire XD
Also I think it's just a nice thing to know. One thanksgiving a cousin brought a girlfriend (we didn't know til the last minute) who was a vegetarian (which we didn't know til she got there) and there were pretty much only 2 things she could eat .___. I also found out recently a few relatives found they were gluten-intolerant, so I've got to start coming up with more gluten-free things as well. I really hate for people to feel like they have to sit around and watch other people eat because there's nothing available.
But that's also a reason why I'd probably fail as a full-fledged vegetarian because I could never go to a family or church or friendly gathering of any kind and probably find a proper dish that was meatless completely. I don't eat salad, lettuce is for burgers and chicken sandwiches only .___. The only "salad" I eat involves spinach and shrimp (spinach is really the only "leafy" green I care to eat by itself). Just eating lettuce without much other filler like chicken in it just gives me a stomach ache, it's not appetizing.
For me I'd really just love to start eating more veggie-meals as lunch and dinner stuff at work/when I get off work during most days. Trying to also find good recipes that make fish healthy AND delicious because I despise fishy taste ;A; I just like shrimp, calamari, and fried catfish with some good sauce. My mom really likes fish and has done some healthy fish dishes before but they always taste way too fishy, I need a strong flavor to cover it up.
I wish you luck, Nex, and I hope you succeed with getting back into the vegetarian lifestyle!
But everything tastes like chicken, ever had crocodile? Chicken, Alligator? Chicken, Camel? Horse. Wait what
…Wow, I added that last tid bit out of randomness...LOL WHY DO YOU READ MY MIND.
Hah. Although I don't think Alligator or camel tastes like chicken. Ostritch is good too. It's like a roast, very different that most bird I've eaten.
Arrghh so side tricked. We're just posting meats in the vegetarian thread :blink:.
At any rate, back in ancient times we weren't predominately meat eaters because we don't have the capability or natural tools that would allow us to capture live animals and kill it easily. When we stared developing tools was when that more of less kicked it in.
Now a days we are fairly sedenatary and our meats are altered and mass produced and shipped all over to us. Vegetarian is for many a better option because of the way our meat is handled.
Now that fake Strelok has left, the tide has calmed down. Ah well.. it was fun while it lasted.
De vuelta al trabajo~
Now that fake Strelok has left, the tide has calmed down. Ah well.. it was fun while it lasted.
De vuelta al trabajo~
Aww..but I was about to show this.
Speaking of modified meat…check this guy out. Supposed to be super healthy some how...
http://www.hemmy.net/2007/07/16/belgian-blue-cattle-super-cow-aka-incredible-hulk-cow/
It's supposedly healthiet to eat this modified cow.
Guys by 2050 we're expected to have micromachines be able to restructure our cells so there's litterally no effort to make us our prime and immortal :ninja:
I honestly don't think it's considered "Healthy" if your diet requires you to pay attention to your intake of vitamins, amino acids, etc. You have to do extra work to make that diet healthy.
To be fair, if you're used to the diet and you know what you need to eat, it just become part of your normal eating habits. I've never taken any supplements because I get all the nutrients through my food because my parents knew what they were doing. It's just like a normal omnivore diet in that aspect. It's only when you're first transitioning into the diet that you might need supplements.
Even with having meat in your diet… depending on the type of meat you eat and how it was processed; if you mostly eat heavily processed meats, in addition to usually MICROWAVING these processed meats, you're already deficient in a lot of the vitamins and minerals you'd get from that meat. Not to mention antibiotics and other stuff pumped in there that you're taking in. It really depends on what you eat, you can eat a high quality vegetarian diet and a high quality diet with meat, and you're still ok if you know what you're doing. To be totally fair, you still have to be extremely self conscious of how much/what kind of meats you take in to be sure you're eating the right amount that's healthy and nutritious. You can "do it wrong" no matter which way you choose to go.
Withholding meat is what i'd consider child abuse. Why rob someone of that pleasure
Can't say i put much stock in any diet. Eat, enjoy, live, love. Ain't nothing else to it
mira a sí mismo~
Were you not "manipulated" into wearing clothes? I mean.. you weren't born into them, but your parents indoctrinated you into wearing them because, subjectively, it is a good thing. Now with vegan diets, parents "manipulate" their children into engaging in them because vegatables and legumes are overall provide more nutrients than meats.
This is completely wrong.
Are you seriously arguing that you can't get all that you need if you follow a vegetarian diet? It really isn't about what you eat or how much you eat as long as you get all the nutrients that you need, which, as far as I am aware of, has already been proved for numerous times to be the case with balanced vegetarian diets.
I'm honestly intrigued. You'd better come back with some good hard data at some point.
Are you seriously not reading? I never said that. And what you eat is important.
Admittedly my native language isn't English but it seems quite clear to me. Or are you saying I should read more about some fad diet? I think not. I care very little about such things.
You don't care about your health? And I don't know how can you miss it:
The Paleolithic diet consists of foods that can be hunted and fished, such as meat, offal and seafood, and can be gathered, such as eggs, insects, fruit, nuts, seeds, vegetables, mushrooms, herbs and spices.
???
It's not hard to just cut out sugar. Sugar is not specifically involved in the vegan diet. acaba de dejar~
But it's still part of, thus proving what you said wrong.
@Nex:
Except that most meat isn't, unless you're getting free range, due to its processed nature. Plus, meat has a lot of unhealthy fat. Also, the majority of an eggs protein is in its egg whites, and, in the egg yolk, is a lot, and I mean a lot of cholesterol, that is incredible unhealthy if you eat eggs everyday.
I am amazed. You managed to get so many things wrong. Read more about fats, about cholesterol and especially the connection between the diet cholesterol and the blood cholesterol. I eat around 7 eggs a day.
@Nex:
Simply wrong? No, you're just a troll. Don't know what healthy means? Sure okay. Just keep trollin trollin trollin.
Maybe gets some good hard facts, from respectable sites, then come back and attempt to argue your case like a normal person.
I am trolling? You are failing so hard at logic, it's not even funny. Take a look at this:
When I said you were manipulated into eating meat, you're response is that you were not, as "meat is healthy and delicious." Thus, suggesting that vegetables are not healthy and delicious.
This is just pathetic. How did you get to this conclusion? There is abslutely no connection between the statements.
And studies, because I promised:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/1/3.short : "Given the likelihood that low vitamin B-12 status is widespread, it is not surprising that infants born to vitamin B-12–deficient vegetarian mothers would also be at risk of cobalamin deficiency."
"Collectively, the adverse consequences of vitamin B-12 deficiency in children fed vegetarian diets and in those with poverty-imposed near-vegetarianism have significant implications for millions of children worldwide."
"Whereas vegetarianism is present in all geographic areas, only in the past 50 y was it recognized that vegetarians have consistently lower vitamin B-12 concentrations than do nonvegetarians and that vegetarians are at greater risk of vitamin B-12 deficiency than are nonvegetarians. Because vitamin B-12 is produced in nature only by vitamin B-12–producing microorganisms, humans must receive vitamin B-12 solely from the diet."
http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/844/Vegetarians_Beware_Nutrient_Deficiencies.aspx : "Researchers believe that homocysteine was high due to a long-term deficiency of specific amino acids and very low levels of glutathione. Glutathione is the most important antioxidant that is produced inside of the body out of three amino acids, glycine, glutamine, and cysteine, all of which are primarily gotten in a carnivorous diet (all three are found in eggs, milk, and some nuts as well)."
"Low glutathione is a big problems for vegetarians because not only is this biological marker necessary for a healthy immune function, it’s directly involved in the removal of toxins from the body. People who have higher glutathione have much less chance of getting a chronic disease because of its importance in maintaining overall health and homeostasis in the body. Athletes can rapidly deplete glutathione but with the adequate diet, it’s possible to replenish it. Vegetarian athletes are at even greater risk for low glutathione unless they supplement."
"Zinc is a much more common nutrient deficiency than iron for everyone, especially vegetarians, but they are grouped together because the problem with both is phytates."
And this: http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/vegetarianism-and-nutrient-deficiencies
Next time educate yourself well instead of talking shit.
@wolfwoof:
Withholding meat is what i'd consider child abuse. Why rob someone of that pleasure
Can't say i put much stock in any diet. Eat, enjoy, live, love. Ain't nothing else to it
I agree .
A real man eats healthy in order to be strong and fit when he has to fight for his life and honour.
@Стрелок:
You don't care about your health? And I don't know how can you miss it:
The Paleolithic diet consists of foods that can be hunted and fished, such as meat, offal and seafood, and can be gathered, such as eggs, insects, fruit, nuts, seeds, vegetables, mushrooms, herbs and spices.
Okey, despite my infinitesimal English skills I can still see that nowhere in that quote it says that the main energy source/food for all of history have been meat. Which is what you claimed.
@Стрелок:
Like I said, this was the main food people have been eating through the ages.
@Стрелок:
But you were still raised not eating the main source of energy people have eaten since before we can remember.
Okey, despite my infinitesimal English skills I can still see that nowhere in that quote it says that the main energy source/food for all of history have been meat. Which is what you claimed.
Use your brain for once. What do you think cave paintings show people killing large animals and not people gathering strawberries or something?
Which will give you more energy - a large stake or a carrot?
Actually eating meat made humans able to evolve:
@Стрелок:
Are you seriously not reading? I never said that. And what you eat is important.
Nah, not really. Based on your rhetoric, I was drawing the assumption that when Nex said he (thinks he) knows what nutrients he needs to get and has made sure that he gets those even if he's on a vege diet and you commented that he's gotten so many things wrong, you meant that one couldn't possibly get all that he needs while on a diet like that. Jumping the gun there, really. My bad, my apologies.
And studies, because I promised:
a ton of stuff
Next time educate yourself well instead of talking shit.
Also, thanks. These were really interesting reads - especially the last one and the parts on K2, B12 and B6. I'll cherish this and use it in every discussion I have with people on the same topic from now on, as it addresses many points that all people really don't think about when they're making brash decisions.
I'm still cautiously maintaining my stance that you can actually get everything you need even by following a vegetarian diet, but only if you know what you're doing. And if some people for some reason believe that they should do just that, I think it's their own business as long as they actually know what they are doing, like in Gear X's case most likely (and at least after reading the articles), and as long as they don't try to preach it to others against their will. It's not so much the idea or the idea that I'm for or against, but the way that it's all carried out.
Good stuff anyway.
I've always eaten meat and I always will. If others decide to give it up, they can feel free to do so but personally I never felt that way. Meat is essential for me to function properly and most importantly- it just tastes delicious (talking about real food here, not some McDonald's crap).
Are most of the vegetarians here doing it for a health reason or a moral reason?
I'm still cautiously maintaining my stance that you can actually get everything you need even by following a vegetarian diet, but only if you know what you're doing.
Yeah, that's what it comes down to in the end, really. It's why I roll my eyes at people who say 'the vegetarian lifestyle is healthier for you!', although I do so just as much at people who say that it's unhealthy, as well.
I don't doubt one bit that many, many people who have a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle are not eating as healthy as they could be and end up lacking certain nutrients, just as Strelok says. The thing is, it's pretty undeniable fact that many, many people who aren't vegetarian or vegan have absurdly unhealthy diets themselves. The simple binary of eating or not eating meat is nowhere close to enough to judge the health of someone's diet.
@Стрелок:
Use your brain for once. What do you think cave paintings show people killing large animals and not people gathering strawberries or something?
Which will give you more energy - a large stake or a carrot?
Actually eating meat made humans able to evolve:
I'm not questioning whether or not people have been eating meat. I'm questioning that it have been the main food we have been eating through out our history. I claim that in fact, for at least the last decades it have been grains, supported by our lord savior wikipedia.