@Monkey:
One thing many people are saying is stuff about Fishman Island like it is a place the Fishmen were sent to live.
This has never been said.
In fact what was suggested is that this is simply where Fishman society sprang up because of the light.
People are making many huge assumptions here, like the aforementioned assertion that all Fishmen feel like Hatchi and Arlong. Also that even if they would like to live among humans, that this means they dislike living on Fishman island.
This is not true, it is self-evident. This is not a ghetto, it is a thriving happy city. Yes they may be limited from living so freely above water, but that doesn't make the places they can bad places.
Fair enough. A lot of assumptions are being made. However, as we have very little to go on as of yet, particularly in regards to the overall history of Fishman Island, that is about all we can do.
But the thing about history in One Piece is that it is not always as it appears. The issue of the Poneglyphs and the Void Century make that abundantly clear. The World Government is not above deliberately suppressing and rewriting history to achieve its goals and maintain its power. As such, we cannot be certain that the apparent truth of Fishman Island is the accurate one.
And a "relocation" would not necessarily have to appear forced. The fishmen have been highly persecuted for centuries. Perhaps it was done purely willingly, or the location was given to the fishmen specifically to serve as a refuge from the persecution they endured on the surface. Perhaps this occurred so long ago that it is not longer remembered at all, and everyone assumes that Fishman Island has always been the seat of their nation.
Or perhaps, as you say, it actually HAS always been the seat of their nation. As of yet, it's impossible to say for certain.
With that said, the very fact that the Ryuugu Kingdom became an official member-state of the World Government two-hundred years ago implies at least some interest in interacting with the human world. Are there those who don't want to live alongside humans? Of course there are. But so too are there those who do. And though I say live alongside humans, I don't necessarily mean as a part of an existing human kingdom, but as a fishman kingdom whose citizens are as free to travel the world as the humans living on the surface. In other words, as equals.
Fishman Island is a city, and an apparently thriving one currently, but all cities have their "ghettos" and, chances are, the Fishman District will prove to be one. What's more, it is a city which has, only recently lost the force that stabilized it for more than a decade (Whitebeard) and now, only two years later, is in the grips of a violent revolution. Any illusion of Fishman Island being stable is now crumbling, and it wouldn't be long, should Hodi successfully take over, before they were fully embroiled in war with the human world.
Even an apparently thriving city can hide massive reservoirs of social unrest…or small, but fanatic ones.
@Monkey:
But as we know, this was not an issue until the age of pirates started with Roger. Nothing about the islands founding can be said to have been thought of as being a pirate route.
True, but therein lies the point. Prior to the start of the Great Age of Piracy, Fishman Island was likely even more isolated than it is now.
@Monkey:
They can colonize the sea floor elsewhere, just not so deep as that. We have seen other cities on the sea floor. There was a fish town in Hatchi's cover story remember?
I think it is more that there aren't many places near the area where Fishman Island is.
And geographical isolation does not effect it. Look at how well off it is.
But therein lies another problem. Being closer to the surface increases the likelihood of contact with those humans who would exploit them. The existence of Fishman Island serves as something of a security blanket for the fishman race, where they can feel safe but are largely cut off from the world.
Also, being well off as a nation doesn't mean that everyone, or even a majority of people, are well off. Take a look at some OPEC nations, where the vast amount of wealth lies in the hands of those relative few who run everything and the vast majority of their people live in poverty. Or even look at the United States itself, with the ever-shrinking middle class and ever-growing wage divide between management and laborers.
@Monkey:
Like I have said, this does not make Fishman Island a bad place.
Not in and of itself, but its isolation is not merely geographical. If its people were truly free to go where they please, Fishman Island would be a fine place, but they are not. They are largely trapped in a gilded cage.
@Monkey:
That is full assumption though.
I would agree maybe if Oda had shown it to be an unhappy city, like a ghetto, which is what you are describing. I had even maybe expected this.
But Oda has shown a happy vibrant city, with happy vibrant citizens.
The problem with that outlook is that this "happy, vibrant city" is now in the grip of civil war. Luffy didn't bring that with him, it was already here.
Hodi (or even Arlong) is not the cause of this unrest, he is a symptom of it.
@Monkey:
This is another thing.
People continue to speak as if Fishman Island is dominated by prejudice and isolationist attitudes. But this is not the case.
If what you describe was true then the takeover of the NFP would not be much of an issue.
Look, they are forcing people to step on a picture of Otohime, they are scaring people away from the status quo. Otohime's husband's rule.
I think it is an open society, I think the Fishmen are mostly open to humans, and peace with them as one planet.
That is what the NFP are out to destroy.
I think what is bothering me most of all about all this talk is it is acting like all these Fishmen and Mermaids are antagonists of this storyline.
But they are not, that is the NFP. Why do you wish destruction on these nice people with a hard past. They are doing nothing wrong.
I don't wish destruction on the people of Fishman Island, nor do I think of them as antagonists. What I do think is that they are a people caught between a rock and a hard place: the violent anti-human movement that Hodi represents and the hard road of endurance that Otohime put forth. They embrace the status quo because the choices they have before them are between hate and suffering, and thus unintentionally add to the frustration that has been building for generations.
@Monkey:
This is self evidently untrue.
Really? Admittedly I could be wrong, but I can't think of any nation that can maintain a persistent state of isolation without starting to stagnate economically.
@Monkey:
I do not think this matters to them. It is clearly a sustained island.
Self-sustaining for now, but what happens if the population increases too much? What happens when they cannot produce everything they need and they don't have the relations with outside nations to trade for the excess?
@Monkey:
Where is this spiteful relationship among the people of the island outside of the NFP?
Resentment doesn't necessarily take the for of spite. Envy might be a better word. Given the right circumstances, this envy can easily turn into the spite of Arlong and Hodi if left to fester.
@Monkey:
Likewise, Ireland is part of the EU and UN.
But it remains a nation state.
These are not incompatible.
Again, you presume I mean that the fishman nation must ultimately be subsumed into some other existing nation to survive… This is not true in the least. The World Government exists like the UN on steroids, but its member-states are still allowed to maintain their own culture and national identity (with exceptions like Ohara, which threaten the WG).
@Monkey:
Here you are again, what have they done?? I really do not understand this point in the slightest.
Hodi and Arlong are violently anti-human. Other than them, all appearances go to the majority of the island's residents being fine with the statis quo: isolation. Perhaps I should have said "…by their own inaction."
@Monkey:
There is literally not any reason to think they are wasting away or stagnating.
And frankly the government is an enemy to them in all respects. You cannot say that an attack on it is unjust. It is not as attack on humanity to do so. Luffy has also declared war on it for instance.
The level of buried social unrest necessary to birth Arlong and Hodi is not enough?
And you are right, the World Government is, in many ways their enemy. But they are also its member-state. Whereas Luffy is a pirate, with a small crew with significant personal power that can go where he pleases and has nothing tying him to any single place, if a newly-crowned King Hodi were to make an attack on the World Government, they would find Fishman Island rapidly under siege. Their only recourse would be to either try and hold the island against whatever the World Government decided to throw at them (which would fail eventually and subject the fishman people to the full wrath of their persecutors) or to abandon the island and essentially become a just another pirate crew trying to stay a few steps ahead of the Marines (and once again leaving the residents of the island to take the brunt of the Government's wrath).
@Monkey:
It is destroying their land and cultural home. It is an awful thing.
It is honestly ethnic cleansing, even though the idea is benevolent for them.
It is a harsh thing… But so is a massive earthquake or volcanic eruption that reduces your home to rubble. Or any one of a list of disasters that might force a person or community to relocate.
@Monkey:
Why is it they cannot have their nation, AND interact with people. Nothing is against this.
It is really people above who need to change (also the NFP).
Alabasta is a people and culture as well, should Luffy sink Alabasta and force them to move to Drum and mix? These are different cultures with islands that are centers of their culture. Why can they have these things but the Fishmen cannot? They are not a different species, but they are their own cultures.
I never said they couldn't. It's fully possible that Shirley's prediction was a hoax, or misinterpreted to mean something other than what it truly did. I'm merely operating on what we currently know, which is that Luffy is "destined" to "destroy" the island and that what we know of him precludes him doing so maliciously.
And again, I'm not saying the fishmen should be forcibly integrated into other nation-states. Ideally, they WOULD get to keep Fishman Island AND interact with other parts of the world as equals. But we don't know how events will turn out. Taking down Hodi, Decken, and probably Caribou might end up resulting in so much collateral damage to the island that nothing can be done in the short term. Luffy and his crew, as well as their opponents, have certainly proven capable enough in that regard in the past.
@Monkey:
That is extremely misguided and seems as if you have not even read the chapters that have shown the life on the island. It is good life.
People have different interpretations of what a good life consists of. Some are content to stay in their hometown for their entire lives. Others are not. Some can overlook the predations their people suffer elsewhere because they are not felt as strongly here. Others can not.
@Monkey:
Do you know how it these things are overcome in real life.
They are a matter of time. More and more younger generations do not care about prejudices as much as their parents. And more mixing occurs as people travel to places like cities where people are not isolated from others. Young Fishmen and Humans will be more friendly to eachother so long as new scars are not made, and time is given for old ones to heal. This is what I hope for Yugoslavia in the future.
And it is already shown in Ireland and England. The North Ireland has become much more peaceful. And the Queen of England will be visiting the country of Ireland. This is the wounds time can heal.
Forcing it is like calling an abortion a birth.
Only time will arrive at what you idealize.
What Luffy can do to fight racism is to defeat people who want to encourage hate and race-war. He can defeat the NFP. The NFP are like the new forms of the IRA, they do not want peace that is slowly coming. They want to keep the fight up, and so they create new scars.
Luffy must defeat the NFP, that is all he can do.
These types of changes do happen slowly - too much so, sadly - but they only occur at all when they are addressed and confronted properly. When those in question pretend nothing is wrong and ignore the problem, the only thing that happens is the conflict is set aside for later.
Like a broken bone, these things cannot heal properly if they are not set first. Delay too long, and you'll just have to break it again.
On that note, good GOD I spent too long on this…