Chapter 598, "2 Years Later" Discussion
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see below
he'd come from ID, having nearly lost his life, lost 10 years of his life, fighting beyond his limits with help from Ivankov's vigor hormones.. but he still did One Punch the giant VA in gear 3rd.
edit: when the VAs in the war beat him down, he had just used Haoshoku and reduced the battlefield count by half [/random number guess] and after saying "those with weak wills step back, this is not just some rookie" a number of VA's ganged up on him. and fought him. together. not one on one. at all.
edit edit: beaten to the punch.
He was on hormones so the exhaustion bit isn't' a factor since his body doesn't feel it at all. Luffy essentially had a buff like in a Role-playing Game the whole war. He also got 30 min to an hours rest on his way to Marineford.
Never was the Giant Squad referred to as the Giant VA Squad. Only Lacroix and Ronse were said to be VAs.
He was owned by Momonga and the Dalmatian in 567. He didn't use Haki till the end of 569. We only saw one guy get KO'ed by his aura. Obviously more than that were taken down but half the battlefield is an incredibly ridiculous guess. After using Haki Luffy was immediately shielded by the major New world Captains. You got events backwards.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-44810-6/one-piece/chapter-570.html
These pirates were fighting VA's, marines, and probably the warlords the whole time. Really think a fresh Luffy is already as strong as these people and the VA's who are on par with them?
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He was on hormones so the exhaustion bit isn't' a factor since his body doesn't feel it at all. Luffy essentially had a buff like in a Role-playing Game the whole war. He also got 30 min to an hours rest on his way to Marineford.
Never was the Giant Squad referred to as the Giant VA Squad. Only Lacroix and Ronse were said to be VAs.
He was owned by Momonga and the Dalmatian in 567. He didn't use Haki till the end of 569. We only saw one guy get KO'ed by his aura. Obviously more than that were taken down but half the battlefield is an incredibly ridiculous guess. After using Haki Luffy was immediately shielded by the major New world Captains. You got events backwards.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-44810-6/one-piece/chapter-570.html
These pirates were fighting VA's, marines, and probably the warlords the whole time. Really think a fresh Luffy is already as strong as these people and the VA's who are on par with them?
Actually, exhaustion does play its part.
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-581/page012.html
The horomone injections were temporary and wore off 3/4 of the way through the war. That's why he had to get another injection from Ivankov. He was pushing himself and powering through his added adrenaline in a body that was worn out at the beginning of the war. And look who Luffy was fighting when his hormones were wearing off.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-9/one-piece/chapter-567.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-10/one-piece/chapter-567.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-11/one-piece/chapter-567.htmlYou can't honestly look at that and say exhaustion isn't a factor. Not to mention he was getting double teamed. I think Luffy pre-timeskip could put up a better fight against the VA than what we saw in that war. The VA are using Rokushiki techniques which Luffy went up against the master of, Lucci. We know the VA have controlled Haki so they can hurt him without the use of weapons, so it'd be a tough battle. The VA in the end probably would win but we can't judge their fighting ability against Luffy properly from what we saw in that war.
Have we seen any of the VA battle someone 1 on 1 so that we can judge their strength? I'm not talking about fodder either.
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Have we seen any of the VA battle someone 1 on 1 so that we can judge their strength? I'm not talking about fodder either.
Why are you treating VA's like a strength class.
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Why are you treating VA's like a strength class.
Ok, so when you look at a VA like Tsuru you don't think strength but rather strategy, experience, and service but giving the VA's a general overview they should exhibit a certain strength, and they do. Not any Marine can just up and become a VA, there are standards right? Of course I don't think they're defined in the manga but surely a Marine has to reach a certain level of strength to reach that class and be promoted to a VA.
I know other factors play into becoming a VA, it's not all about strength. Since we're talking about a 1 on 1 battle though, particularly Luffy vs. a VA, strength comes up the most and we're debating whether or not Luffy can beat a VA pre-timeskip. Mainly with strength.
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Well as i out of curiosity read the latest chapters occassionally, i'd like to post something on than that i like there :) 1. I like how Sanji freaks out of his place on some women there ahead and fake Luffy's crew wreaks havoc. Most impressive is the real one Nami's acting amongst others and doing various stuff… so ima awaiting new chap as it seemz :D
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Ok, so when you look at a VA like Tsuru you don't think strength but rather strategy, experience, and service but giving the VA's a general overview they should exhibit a certain strength, and they do. Not any Marine can just up and become a VA, there are standards right? Of course I don't think they're defined in the manga but surely a Marine has to reach a certain level of strength to reach that class and be promoted to a VA.
I know other factors play into becoming a VA, it's not all about strength. Since we're talking about a 1 on 1 battle though, particularly Luffy vs. a VA, strength comes up the most and we're debating whether or not Luffy can beat a VA pre-timeskip. Mainly with strength.
Since you can't define the bare minimum and the only people we've seen them fight is new world pirates, it's not really worth a debate in the abstract.
I doubt he could have beaten the VA's who were kicking him around even at 100%. Ambition & the six superhuman skills is a pretty potent combo.
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I want to see the new Admiral if any, what rank Coby is and how he looks and his strenght… and the new Shichibukai if any slots were filled.
I WANNA SEE EVERYONE! Early One Piece was simpler, only Coby, Luffy and Zoro.
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As the words of Ms. Lovett's:
Easy now,
Hush love hush.
Don't distress yourself,
What's your rush.
Keep your thoughts,
nice and lush.Wait.
Seriously, Oda just set up a whole pile of kick ass by not telling us however everyone has changed. If Oda were smart, he'd dangle each character towards us one-by-one.
At the same time, don't expect all characters to change. Shakky, Rayleigh, and Handsome haven't changed much.
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One Piece makes me too happy for my own good.
In a matter of fact, 2 years isn't that much, I expected that people like Nami and Zoro would change a lot since they were in the way to adulthood, but adults don't really change that much in 2 years, right?
Either way, I wonder how Coby looks now…
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One Piece makes me too happy for my own good.
In a matter of fact, 2 years isn't that much, I expected that people like Nami and Zoro would change a lot since they were in the way to adulthood, but adults don't really change that much in 2 years, right?
Either way, I wonder how Coby looks now…
Techniquely, neither Nami nor Zoro have changed much. Nami let her hair grow out, and Zoro has a scar on his eye.
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@Tep:
So, um, can we assume that the Color of Observation is Luffy's weak point, considering that he just got done bumping into his (much bigger) fake after a year and a half of intensive training? >.>
Actually is the other way around. Luffy became so powerful that just a little bump with his backpack is enough to knock over some big guy like FLuffy.
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@The:
I'm really interested to see whether/how the relationships within the straw hats have changed in 2 years…
On a side note, does it seem like Luffy's matured a little? ... Also if he's learned how to control haki (at least the observation side of it) why didn't he know that fake-luffy was there and simply avoid bumping into him? My mind is now exploding due to the plethora of questions spewing out of my thoughts -_-
Yes, I'm interested in seeing how the crew will interact after being separated for so long as well. I'm betting that's a major interest in most people after the time skip. We've all been panting for their reuinion for that past two years. Can not wait to see it! It's like Christmas, Japanese New Year's, and a Birthday all rolled into one, and Oda seems determined to drag it out and make us suffer for chapters! Ugh! LOL (God love the man, he is a genius at keeping us riveted)
As for Luffy–yes, the teeny tiny glimpses we've seen have sorta hinted at him being a bit more mature, although his telling Hancock what he wouldn't marry her once he knew what was on her mind was totally in character, IMHO. He always has said what he feels. I felt the most significant indication of change was his wearing a large cape with hood over his head. Discretion has never been his strong suit, yet he seems to have made that judgement call completely on his own. Such a seemingly small detail but it points to what could potentially be a major change in his way of thinking.
Umm I doubt his haki is on 24/7 lol. May be like logia fruit users, that they can be hit physically if you catch them off guard(save crocodile, who is just that amazing). I doubt he would feel the need to have his haki (turned on?) when walking through a sparse crowd(seeing as everyone had backed away due to fake luffy's civilian executions)
Does haki work that way? Turning it on and off? I thought of it more like other types of senses, like smell or sight. You can be more or less aware of what they are telling you, depending on force of habit or training, but I doubt you can "turn" them "On and Off." ETA–I thought of a better analogy--It's like strength. If you build it up slowly, you unconsciously adjust to it as you grow stronger, but if you were ever to suddenly be given super-strength out of the blue (in the manner that Koby got OH) you'd be breaking stuff and hurting people left and right. You can train your haki and keep it under control, but IMHO it's like strength, it's always there--and in the case of OH, you are always getting information--but you learn to filter it or pay more attention to it. I base this idea on the fact that Koby was told he'd have to train his haki in order to be able to control it's impact on his sanity, etc. I believe I've heard that it's a big part of Japanese philosophy to be able to compartmentalize things and pay more or less attention to a given stimuli--it's the way you have to be in houses with paper walls, lol. Otherwise noone would ever have any privacy. Thus having a sort of power that requires training to learn to ignore, or control it, makes sense to me. I could be totally wrong of course.
Starting with Shakey and her knowing which of the SH's are already on SA together with exact dates of their arrival (color of observation? probably) Than we could ask ourselves, what happened with Kuma. Was he
a) beaten by Shakey
b) still has his original personality
c) something else
I too have wondered, was/is the decision SH's made the right one… Kid and Law didn't exactly wait 2 years and are now making their way out there. Has any of SNs fallen? ... Where exactly do SHs stand in terms of strength?
I heard people here sharing different views regarding the question. So I ll share mine as well:While pre-time skip I wasn't certain, now I am of the opinion that Kuma is, after all, an ally. Handsome Duval didn't even mention him specifically in his recitation of who he fought, and I feel he would have if Kuma'd been on the side of the WG. Plus, I think if he returned with a tale of failure to capture/destroy the ship, the WG would have sent more people in another attempt, and continued to send newer stronger people, until they succeeded. JMHO, of course, but there it is.
AS for the SH's relative strength, another question I cannot wait to see answered in the coming chapters.
For the finale I would like to comment on the G1 and Marine HQ replacement.
1. I think that is a hint Akainu is in charge. Knowing him and his personality it defers from Sengoku. Akainu is a man who follows absolute justice and wouldnt mind the casulties along the way of practicing it.
So IMO in his eyes Marines were doing it all wrong when they were stationed in the old GL instead of New one, where the strongest pirates and thus the symbols of piracy reside.
Taking them down, is the beginning of the end, even if by doing so the Old GL will suffer, because as it was said in latest chapter, lawless zones and criminal/pirate activity will increase.
Kill the big guys than deal with the smaller fishes, that is the new way of doing things.Yes, I have thought Akainu would be the next guy in charge since pre-time-skip (hence that part of my bet with Don, lol) I agree with the bulk of your assessment here.
There is big difference between "teaching all he knows" and "teaching everything he could teach".
In fact, Cnet's translation implies that Rayleigh only taught Luffy the basics during those 1 year and a half:
"Luffy: I picked up all the basics in just a year and a half, after all… // Well, I guess this is goodbye to you guys and this place..."As well as Aohige's translation:
"Luffy: Yeah, I finished all the basics in one year... (at the animals) Looks like I'll be parting both you guys and this island now..."
(Remembering that Aohige pointed out a correction in his translation: http://www.apforums.net/showpost.php?p=1898655&postcount=1030 )So all Luffy knows is the basics and something else he developed during those 6 months by himself. So I would say that he probably still has a long way to go till he can fully master haki (as Rayleigh already did).
But I understood that Rayleigh taught him all of the basics, plus stayed another 6 months after that with Luffy continuing his training, then left him alone for 6 months. So Luffy definitely learned more than the basics.
…I will also say this: I like how in OP there are no Young boys wooping old guys asses right and left, and instead everybody needs time to grow.
Hance we have yet to see Haki being used by young people (I would figure all of Haki users have been over 30, perhaps Enel excluded.Another instance of a young person using haki was Ace during the fire when he used HH and knocked out the fodder so Luffy could escape.
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He bumped into F-Luffy on purpose to provoke him in my opinion.
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@Monkey:
Actually is the other way around. Luffy became so powerful that just a little bump with his backpack is enough to knock over some big guy like FLuffy.
Fluffy! That's a nice nickname for Fake Luffy
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I think something similar will happen, but I don't see how that changes anything. Fisher Tiger freeing all the slaves didn't do much to help the problem in the long run. Great for those who were released, though.
The ruling society seems to have no interest in ending slavery, or it would have happened with Fisher Tiger. And they shouldn't, for the sake of the story, considering how beneficial it is to them. Repeating history wouldn't do anything more than repeat history. Totally destroying the WG and Mariejoa could work, I suppose, but seems a bit extreme for this point in the story.
So how would they go about getting the nobles to stop slavery? Force won't do the trick as long as the WG is supposed to hold power. The only answer I can come to, then, is that of public opinion. There will certainly still be grand battles and the like, but when it's all said and done, I think they may need a star like Brook to push society in the right direction after they leave.
I think I see where you are going with this, but may I point out that generally speaking, prior to meeting and having interactions with the SHs, the vast majority of the people in the OPverse believe, with out question, that pirates are evil, horrible monsters. If Brook's collusion with the SHs become common knowledge, it could either work in his rep's favor (he is hard core, so they will think this just makes him more cool, possibly along with the SHs) or against him (OMG he's awful! How could he be a PIRATE!?!) If it works in his favor, and it spills over to the rep of the SHs themselves, they could have some effect on the mind set of the common people with regard to the slave trade and etc, and perhaps lead in to the final overthrow or restructuring of the WG, but if not…
ETA–I LOVE Fluffy as the new nickname for Fake Luffy. That is hillarious!
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@I:
But I understood that Rayleigh taught him all of the basics, plus stayed another 6 months after that with Luffy continuing his training, then left him alone for 6 months. So Luffy definitely learned more than the basics.
Actually no, read it again. Luffy learned the basics in 1 year and a half. And Rayleigh left the island 6 months ago (therefore Rayleigh only stayed in the island during 1 year and a half, and then left). So, all Rayleigh taught Luffy was the basics, and everything Luffy learned beyond that was on his own during these 6 months alone in the island.
If I write something wrong, excuse my english….
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@I:
Does haki work that way? Turning it on and off? I thought of it more like other types of senses, like smell or sight. You can be more or less aware of what they are telling you, depending on force of habit or training, but I doubt you can "turn" them "On and Off." ETA–I thought of a better analogy--It's like strength. If you build it up slowly, you unconsciously adjust to it as you grow stronger, but if you were ever to suddenly be given super-strength out of the blue (in the manner that Koby got OH) you'd be breaking stuff and hurting people left and right. You can train your haki and keep it under control, but IMHO it's like strength, it's always there--and in the case of OH, you are always getting information--but you learn to filter it or pay more attention to it. I base this idea on the fact that Koby was told he'd have to train his haki in order to be able to control it's impact on his sanity, etc. I believe I've heard that it's a big part of Japanese philosophy to be able to compartmentalize things and pay more or less attention to a given stimuli--it's the way you have to be in houses with paper walls, lol. Otherwise noone would ever have any privacy. Thus having a sort of power that requires training to learn to ignore, or control it, makes sense to me. I could be totally wrong of course.
Much easier for me to understand when you put it as such. It is a legit possibility that it is somewhat like mind reading(bear with my analogies please). If you are in a crowded room and are receiving information from every single person you would likely go insane. With training you can filter the important things, as well as the trivial, things out.
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Actually, exhaustion does play its part.
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-581/page012.html
The horomone injections were temporary and wore off 3/4 of the way through the war. That's why he had to get another injection from Ivankov. He was pushing himself and powering through his added adrenaline in a body that was worn out at the beginning of the war. And look who Luffy was fighting when his hormones were wearing off.
Why are you referencing that page for? Iva is talking about the Vigor Hormones he gave Luffy before the riot at ID. He reached his limit after he was double-teamed and collapsed because they could no longer trick his body due to all the damage he had accumulated. Still no reason to assume his reactions, speed, and power dropped prior to falling down since he had hormones.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-9/one-piece/chapter-567.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-10/one-piece/chapter-567.html
http://www.mangareader.net/103-41586-11/one-piece/chapter-567.htmlYou can't honestly look at that and say exhaustion isn't a factor. Not to mention he was getting double teamed. I think Luffy pre-timeskip could put up a better fight against the VA than what we saw in that war. The VA are using Rokushiki techniques which Luffy went up against the master of, Lucci. We know the VA have controlled Haki so they can hurt him without the use of weapons, so it'd be a tough battle. The VA in the end probably would win but we can't judge their fighting ability against Luffy properly from what we saw in that war.
Have we seen any of the VA battle someone 1 on 1 so that we can judge their strength? I'm not talking about fodder either.
Who said Lucci was the only Rokushiki master? Lucci is a young guy who has only fought weak pirates in his life and trained in seclusion gaining most of his power at W7. VA are Haki and Rokushiki using Swordsman who have decades of experience facing Veteran Pirates of the New World. They should be more dangerous than Lucci.
Seeing as they are mostly swordsman its a safe bet they are more proficient at CoO Haki than CoA since the latter is a pretty redundant skill for them with blades and claws at their disposal. Fight even makes it seem that way as they were reacting quite easily to Luffy's actions. You say that is cause of exhaustion but maybe they simply knew what he was gonna do. Not saying Luffy wasn't more damaged and fatigued as them. Only pointing out that they had been fighting people as strong or stronger than Luffy for hours and received no wounds.
You can make a fairly accurate guess to a Shounen character's strength by their role and status in a story. We haven't seen Yassop or Lucky fight but we make a very likely prediction that they are no weaker than Jozu&Vist serving the same exact role in the story. We didn't see it but its implied the VAs were keeping the New World Captains busy at the front of the bay. They weren't just handling fodder.
You really want to entertain the idea that a Rookie just entering the New World is already capable enough to put up a good fight the New World's Elite Pirates and Marines. Outside of Gear stacking Luffy shouldn't be able to defeat these guys yet and even Gear Stacking isn't a sure thing.
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Actually no, read it again. Luffy learned the basics in 1 year and a half. And Rayleigh left the island 6 months ago (therefore Rayleigh only stayed in the island during 1 year and a half, and then left). So, all Rayleigh taught Luffy was the basics, and everything Luffy learned beyond that was on his own during these 6 months alone in the island.
It's possible that Boa Hancock was there for the last 6 months.
And she does also have the King's Haki, she could of been able to teach him a couple of things. That's my theory. -
It's possible that Boa Hancock was there for the last 6 months.
And she does also have the King's Haki, she could of been able to teach him a couple of things. That's my theory.well, let's also look on the bright side of things, because of luffy's statement regarding marriage
there will be no more luffy/boa talkthere will be LESS luffy/boa talknothing will change -
Whew boy, and I thought Nami looked hot before! I love Chopper's new hat. Franky made me laugh my ass off. But I'm not sure about Usopp's hat…that may take some getting used to.
Hmmm...I foresee Nami doing well in next year's tournament.
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@Usopp:
I love Chopper's new hat..
Chopper's hat was a part of him :( i won't accept it is his (new) one…
Global warming is the least of their worries…
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@Alex:
Chopper's hat was a part of him :( i won't accept it is his (new) one…
I thought that too at first because I had short term memory, but then I thought to myself "Do you really think Oda would have Chopper throw away a cherished keepsake from a doctor that he admired so much? A hat that symbolizes the first friendship he ever had?" Which then made me remember Chopper is only wearing a covering over his old hat. Look at the color spread again.
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Wasn't that explained before? Or was it in the spoiler threads.
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Luffy was mangled by Croc and used all those shadows to weaken Moria.
Just remember.
…and Moria used the body of Oars to mangle the Straw Hat crew
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Actually no, read it again. Luffy learned the basics in 1 year and a half. And Rayleigh left the island 6 months ago (therefore Rayleigh only stayed in the island during 1 year and a half, and then left). So, all Rayleigh taught Luffy was the basics, and everything Luffy learned beyond that was on his own during these 6 months alone in the island.
This is the translation from Aohige, available on the first page:
Pg 3
Narration: Two years have pased since the War between Marine HQ and Whitebeard pirates took place.
This is the Rusukaina island, north west of the Amazon LilyLuffy: Time went so fast…. 2 years already, huh?
Pg 4-5
Sonia: Rayleigh left half an year ago, so I'm sure he's waiting for you at Sabaody.
Luffy: Yeah, I finished all the basics in one year…Pge 18
Sanji: Yeah, but I'm surprised that you were training Luffy… he must be amazingly strong now
Rayleigh: I haven't seen him in half an year either. I'm looking forward to his further growth!Now Math is not my strongest subject, LOL, but if Luffy says it’s been two years since he got to that island, that he learned all the basics in 1 year, and then Sonia says Rayleigh “left half a year ago,” which is later confirmed by Rayleigh when he says to Sanji “I haven’t seen him in half a year, either,” I’m going to assume there was a six month time period in there where Luffy was able to get beyond the basics, unless you're suggesting that 6 months got lost somewhere, perhaps before Luffy and Rayleigh arrived at the island? Because there's nothing in the chapter to suggest that…
Or did I miss something? I recall a post saying something about Aohige saying there was a mistake with the time frame, but I assumed it was the translater at the site with the scans. Was Aohige saying he made a mistake and it took Luffy a year and a half to learn to basics? (Argh, if so, then I am wrong of course.)
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@I:
I’m going to assume there was a six month time period in there where Luffy was able to get beyond the basics, unless you're suggesting that 6 months got lost somewhere, perhaps before Luffy and Rayleigh arrived at the island? Because there's nothing in the chapter to suggest that…
I wish I had the raw to check, I'm still squinting my eyes at the spoiler pics.
I did find a mistake I made though.
Luffy finished the basics in year and a half.So Rayleigh left as soon as the basics were done, and haven't seen Luffy in six month.
Mangastream got Rayleigh's speech wrong (he says he hasn't seen him in half an year), and I got Luffy's speech wrong.Still no idea on the bounty for the two brothers Caliboo and Coriboo. MS probably has it right, they have a clean raw.
I think that answer your question
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Ah there it is. LOL Thank you chpollastrini. Appreciate the clarification. I was wrong. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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@I:
This is the translation from Aohige, available on the first page:
Now Math is not my strongest subject, LOL, but if Luffy says it’s been two years since he got to that island, that he learned all the basics in 1 year, and then Sonia says Rayleigh “left half a year ago,” which is later confirmed by Rayleigh when he says to Sanji “I haven’t seen him in half a year, either,” I’m going to assume there was a six month time period in there where Luffy was able to get beyond the basics, unless you're suggesting that 6 months got lost somewhere, perhaps before Luffy and Rayleigh arrived at the island? Because there's nothing in the chapter to suggest that…
Or did I miss something? I recall a post saying something about Aohige saying there was a mistake with the time frame, but I assumed it was the translater at the site with the scans. Was Aohige saying he made a mistake and it took Luffy a year and a half to learn to basics? (Argh, if so, then I am wrong of course.)
**Cnet's translation says that Luffy learned the basics in one and a half years and that Rayleigh hasn't seen him for half a year. I'm guessing that Aohige made the mistake (probably cause he was using low resolution raw or something) and not Cnet.
Also, considering that even with Rayleigh's tutelage it took Luffy one and a half years to learn the basics of Haki usage, I doubt he knows much more than the basics when it comes to Haki since he was apparently on his own in the last six months.
EDIT: Damn, beaten to it.**
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Does anyone think we'll get a Timeskip Sogeking or will Usopp not need him anymore?
I hope not.
;~; -
Does anyone think we'll get a Timeskip Sogeking or will Usopp not need him anymore?
I hope not.
;~;We will never get Post time skip Sogeking. If the persona of sogeking is the "true king of snipers" then Usopp will never be able to achieve his goal of being the king of snipers basically. He has no need for sogeking anymore.
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Darn,
I was kind of hoping for a "George of the Jungle" stylised Sogeking.
xD
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