@THE:
…so you're saying I can dance?
Well duh, I'm not being intentionally racist for no reason.:getlost:
jk jk. You know your my bro
@THE:
…so you're saying I can dance?
Well duh, I'm not being intentionally racist for no reason.:getlost:
jk jk. You know your my bro
@THE:
and Bowser has a horny third leg…
Well in henta–is shot
Thank RBoar. I almost can't believe part 1 and part 2 were written by the same person.
What happened?
Don't get it confused, Juju. I don't hate anyone. And his retrospective of Part-1 has been interesting. It's not until Part-2 starts when everything starts getting iffy for me anyways, so I gotta wait till his review on that.
I don't think "Sasuke going to the dark side despite having friends" is bad writing, though. A lot of people make dumb decisions despite having plenty of help.
I know you said you think Naruto is "Meh", but you don't me dumbass statements like i see some people on here do daily. I respect someone like you and it seems you listen to each side anyways. Anyways, look at crackheads, drinking, etc… people make bad decisions in life and hurt people they love. IDK how thats bad writing at all. You have Men/Women who go back in demestic violence relationships parents warn them or disown them. People are flawed creatures and everyone is different.
@Shuhan1288:
jk jk. You know your my bro
Why the fuck do I got to be your "bro"?!…......
@Sea:
Thank RBoar. I almost can't believe part 1 and part 2 were written by the same person.
What happened?
Oda being the Timorese bastard he is beat Kishi's head against a wall repeatedly. Fortunately the police arrived in time to save Kishi, however Kishi suffered brain damage from the head trauma. As per usual with Oda, Shueisha covered things up on the condition that Oda work harder at creating One Piece. Sadly, Naruto hasn't been the same since.
@THE:
…so you're saying I can dance?
You can dance if you want to… You can leave yourself behind...
Hey, you know what was a bad part of Part 1?
The Sand Siblings coming to the rescue in the Sound 5 bit.
@THE:
Why the fuck do I got to be your "bro"?!…......
Dude, that's low…
You can dance if you want to… You can leave yourself behind...
I thought I was suppose to abandon friends…
@Shuhan1288:
Dude, that's low…
That's where I like it~
Hey, you know what was a bad part of Part 1?
The Sand Siblings coming to the rescue in the Sound 5 bit.
Yeah. One thing I loved about part one Naruto were the clever fights. How characters could win battles in their own ways without it seeming like an ass pull. They would either win by some genius strategy (Shikamaru) or a fitting fluke (Naruto) and it would all seem natural, despite the odds. Then, the last three of the Sound 5…
I think this is really where Kishi started falling apart. He failed even when he did something that we would yearn for now by using more of the support characters. Chouji and Neji were given some pretty impressive battles where they barely won by strength of will and overcoming adversity. I expected something similar from the rest. If they weren't driven to the brink of death, I wanted to see acts of desperation or ingenuity on their parts, especially from Shikamaru. It was a one of the first huge kicks to the pants of the 'hard work overcomes genius' moral.
They were all saved by people who were naturally stronger than them. Even Shikamaru, who is a genius, has to be saved by someone who was just better than him regardless of intelligence. Magical Sand Jesus pulled right out of Kishishi's ass.
@THE:
I thought I was suppose to abandon friends…
Nah, I was just saying that 'cause your friends don't dance and if they don't dance, well they're no friends of mine.
It felt fanservicey too.
Guys, let's all savor the final hours of EnelxMakino.
It felt fanservicey too.
I would complain about that more, but, again, nowadays something like that would be a godsend in Naruto.
RBoar, I commend you for your excellent retrospective on the rise and fall of the Naruto Dynasty.
Mama Sanji would be proud.
RBoar, I commend you for your excellent retrospective on the rise and fall of the Naruto Dynasty.
Mama Sanji would be proud.
LOL Ye didn't even do the fall part yet. He starting that now. IDK wat your talking about
! Well folks, this is the endgame. The part where you're waiting in your seat for the only so slightly held back letters to be plastered over your screen in one big 'GAME OVER'.
! First though, let me introduce you to a new friend of mine.
! [qimg]http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1848/antinaruto.jpg[/qimg]
! I call him Anti-Naruto. You might think I went into Photoshop and took a picture from a previous post just so I could invert the colors and put him here, but this is not true. Anti-Naruto is here for a reason, because we're going to need to get used to him for a while.
! >! So last we left off, the Hokage died, and everyone was hunky in the hood. Until two mysterious strangers appear, with red-clouded robes and funny hats! They are irrelevant to this topic. However, what they are looking for is, in fact, Naruto. That makes them notable, yes?
! [qimg]http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/601/getreadyforcollege.jpg[/qimg]
! It sort of does. In this case, for the fact they refer to Naruto as the 'Fourth's Legacy'. This isn't the first time it's been mentioned either, but to say it means that the Fourth acted as Naruto's father was still an assumption at the time. Why is this important? Because I don't give a fuck about internet speak in my scans.
! By the way, you anime guys can shove right off. This here's manga country - we don't take kindly to you coloreds.
! [qimg]http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5249/youkilledhisclan.jpg[/qimg]
! And here we are, Naruto finding the reason behind Sasuke's revenge quest. It's important to note that the previous page had Kisame noting that the entire Uchiha clan was wiped out, and only here did it reveal who did it. Every moment where Sasuke hinted at a goal or person made him question his motives, and never understand where he came from. His previous prick attitude becomes easier to understand at this one moment, and Naruto is able to emphasize with Sasuke's motives. It's an important thing to remember that it's Sasuke's motives have become clear. Beforehand, the two could relate on the grounds that both grew up alone, for the most part. Much like Gaara in a sense; in another, completely and totally different.
! So a fight happens, Sasuke gets is shit messed, 'moar hatred', and it's time for Tsunade! Also:
! [qimg]http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5283/strength.jpg[/qimg]
! Become stronger, eh? What could he mean? Does Naruto mean become mighty and powerful? Or is it that there's more to it than that?
! el
! oh
! el
! Tsunade stuff happens, Naruto gets pissed 'cuz she's a bitch, and
! [qimg]http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8274/ghostseverywhere.jpg[/qimg]
! [qimg]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7593/itneverends.jpg[/qimg]
! [qimg]http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9527/resolutionb.jpg[/qimg]
! There is no limit to how much this has been shown, but later arcs in part 1 really laid it heavy with Naruto becoming Hokage. It's his mission statement, his primary directive after all the load of friendship. He is absolutely hellbent on proving that he can become, change into the figurehead of Konoha, and have his face chiseled into that mountaintop, once and for all proving his worth as a shinobi.
! And nothin's ever gonna stop him, gaiz.
! [qimg]http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2221/ohshitmyhand.jpg[/qimg]
! I can smile motherfucker!
! Let's skip over a little bit, shall we? Right about the time where two boys want to have a dick-measuring contest, and Sasuke turns into the beast to forever be known as Fuckup. Better names are open for suggestion.
! [qimg]http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4516/sassybitch.jpg[/qimg]
! At times it's hard to remember that these two weren't really the best of friends. Really hard.
! [qimg]http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3060/notthesizebaby.jpg[/qimg]
! I'll only put it in a little.
! [qimg]http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5593/sthemotionoftheocean.jpg[/qimg]
! Just a little.
! [qimg]http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3630/nokidding.jpg[/qimg]
! You know that weird, inorganic taste you sometimes get in your mouth? The really tinny one? I'm getting that too, for some reason. It's unexplainable.
! This leads to Fuckup being butthurt and leaving with the Sound ninjas. No matter, because you know what that means?!
! Rescue Arc! Which I shall be skipping over because of all the unrelated.
! [qimg]http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/6584/tthisfamiliar.jpg[/qimg]
! I always objected to the notion that Kishimoto drew this from Jackson's Fellowship of the Rings. He's a busy man, drawing manga that features grand scenery and characters with dialogue, all while trying to come up with a cohesive story.
! I may have to rethink this stance.
! What follows is Fuckup being a one-hundred percent farm-grown cunt, despite the amount of growth from his character from the Chunin Exams arc and all that came before. Where did the reluctant bonding from the Wave arc go? Where did the acceptance of his teammates go from the Exam arc? Where did simple uptight, asshole behavior all go?
! Right here, my friends.
! [qimg]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/984/iamacunt.jpg[/qimg]
! [qimg]http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6383/aselfishcunt.jpg[/qimg]
! [qimg]http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1650/niceandraw.jpg[/qimg]
! Right here.
! And of course:
! [qimg]http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/7505/predarkness.jpg[/qimg]
! After Itachi did the big evil nasty, mind you. Proceeding on, we finish the battle with an enormous black bubble. Cracks begin to appear, and…
! [qimg]http://img806.imageshack.us/img806/4730/makesuretousetwofingers.jpg[/qimg]
! the two of them…
! [qimg]http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7466/sootheyourpartner.jpg[/qimg]
! Yes.
! Absolutely. Fuckup… then saunters off to get some nice R&R with the man who has the longest, slimiest tongue in the world. Ain't talking about no toads, here. Then, antidrama in the form of Chouji and Neji coming out alive.
! Eventually we get around to Naruto waking up:
! [qimg]http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/593/ohno.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3594/notagain.jpg[/qimg]
! Saying the worst thing possible.
! This happens too:
! [qimg]http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8924/andthenwhat.jpg[/qimg]
! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh you.
Jiraiya pays Naruto a visit while he's in the hospital. A wise sage such as this, demented though he is, has lived a long life, and surely has good words to impart on your supple young-
! [qimg]http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/6974/okaythen.jpg[/qimg]
! You're taking the 'stupid Shonen protagonist' way too far, bitch.
! There's… this, too.
! [qimg]http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/417/goodlord.jpg[/qimg]
! I don't think there's a better image to end this with.
! Except this:
! [qimg]http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/5075/goodnightsweetprince.jpg[/qimg]
! It's the last you'll see of him.
! [qimg]http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1388/iworearubber.jpg[/qimg]
! There's not enough respect for rapists in today's society.
This is kinda long (an understatement) so I put this in spoilers.
! Well now, I understand quite a few people would have a problem in Sasuke's seemingly sudden change in attitude. His turning to the dark side and subsequent apprenticeship under Orochimaru. But honestly, his change was subtle, faster at times, but the darkness took years to accumulate.
!
! Sasuke was at the ripe age of…7 when his entire clan was murdered in 1 night. To make matters worse, psychologically at least, he was lead to believe this was solely done by his own elder brother, Uchiha Itachi. This led to his 2 primary goals and ambitions in his life. The revival of the Uchiha Clan and of course.
!
! Extracting vengeance on Uchiha Itachi. But Sasuke as he is now (current storyline) is no where near the same as the Sasuke we were introduced to. Remember this?
!
! Yes, it's Sasuke protecting Naruto from danger! So what happened after Naruto and Sasuke's tag team duo against Zabuza? Their combined efforts against Haku and later on Gaara? What happened to this Sasuke!?
!
! He happened.
!
! That man is the bringer of darkness to that kid's life.
!
! Itachi has lead Sasuke down the dark path and no matter how much Sasuke tried to fight it he couldn't win. He wanted strength and he was manipulated down the dark path over time.
!
! This is why the "fuckup" left Konoha. He was mind fucked and still is. It's not like the change in character was a complete 180. Sasuke had slowly been singking into darkness since he was 7 years old.
!
! He betrayed Konoha to seek a strength and power. Hate was all he knew to reach his main goal and he wasn't strong enough to fight it. Essentially he failed to hold on to and acknowledge what he had before running to Orochimaru. He had friends and strength but he disregarded it. All for the above reasons.
! Now on to Naruto this will be much shorter. From what I discern the problem you have with him is his self admitting "foolish" determination to chase after Sasuke.
!
! It's because of the bond they share, a bond he feels stronger than Sasuke, but a bond nonetheless. And to Naruto this bond means everything. Loneliness is a much repeated theme in this manga and the pain it brings. So when Naruto finally found someone he could make bonds with, is it not understandable why he would want to be a "fool" to get Sasuke back?
!
! As for Part 2 (Shippuden) and his constant whining over Sasuke I need to say his character does get annoying. I understand his initial enthusiasm to bring Sasuke back but after Sasuke undoubtedly proved he wanted nothing to do with Konoha and his past friends anymore…frankly I just think Naruto is being an ass for trying to force Sasuke to come back.
!
! Wrapping this all up the only characterization flaws I can find are not the change in characters after Part 1. Naruto was always stubborn and willful. Sasuke was always dark and vengeful (after the Uchiha incident). The flaws I find are their characteristics enunciated to an annoying degree in Part 2. Naruto is too stubborn and willful, to the point he'd accept Sasuke even if he plans on destroying Konoha. Sasuke is too damn vengeful to the point he'd destroy all of Konoha over the mistakes of others. Besides their trademark personalities being overdone in Part 2 I think they make a great contrast of "good" and "evil" to each other, an appropriate rivalry.
! Forgive the sob story for Sasuke and ignore all the ways you can turn "bonding" into gay jokes. :ninja:
@Sea:
Thank RBoar. I almost can't believe part 1 and part 2 were written by the same person.
What happened?
Wasn't it common knowledge now (or a rumor at least) that Part 1 is BASED on previous works (kind of like how Dragonball was based on Journey to the West and then the later parts kind of went down the Super man route) while part 2 of Naruto is ALL Kishi writing original content with zero basis?
It's quite telling…
[qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img827/4013/0011j.jpg[/qimg]
This is kinda long (an understatement) so I put this in spoilers.
! Well now, I understand quite a few people would have a problem in Sasuke's seemingly sudden change in attitude. His turning to the dark side and subsequent apprenticeship under Orochimaru. But honestly, his change was subtle, faster at times, but the darkness took years to accumulate.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img46/4761/010mob.jpg[/qimg]
! Sasuke was at the ripe age of…7 when his entire clan was murdered in 1 night. To make matters worse, psychologically at least, he was lead to believe this was solely done by his own elder brother, Uchiha Itachi. This led to his 2 primary goals and ambitions in his life. The revival of the Uchiha Clan and of course.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img13/4236/011nh.jpg[/qimg]
! Extracting vengeance on Uchiha Itachi. But Sasuke, as he is now, was no where near as bad as the Sasuke we were introduced to. Remember this?
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img808/7120/0131.jpg[/qimg]
! Yes, it's Sasuke protecting Naruto from danger! So what happened after Naruto and Sasuke's tag team duo against Zabuza? Their combined efforts against Haku and later on Gaara? What happened to this Sasuke!?
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img44/8291/012cby.jpg[/qimg]
! He happened.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9190/001bit.jpg[/qimg]
! That man is the bringer of darkness to that kid's life.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img824/3706/0151t.jpg[/qimg]
! Itachi has lead Sasuke down the dark path and no matter how much Sasuke tried to fight it he couldn't win. He wanted strength and he was manipulated down the dark path over time.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img96/4120/005nqi.jpg[/qimg]
! This is why the "fuckup" left Konoha. He was mind fucked and still is. It's not like the change in character was a complete 180. Sasuke had slowly been singking into darkness since he was 7 years old.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img440/838/013zp.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img72/2450/014xh.jpg[/qimg]
! He betrayed Konoha to seek a strength and power. Hate was all he knew to reach his main goal and he wasn't strong enough to fight it. Essentially he failed to hold on to and acknowledge what he had before running to Orochimaru. He had friends and strength but he disregarded it. All for the above reasons.
! Now on to Naruto this will be much shorter. From what I discern the problem you have with him is his self admitting "foolish" determination to chase after Sasuke.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img827/2495/0152e.jpg[/qimg]
! It's because of the bond they share, a bond he fees stronger than Sasuke, but a bond nonetheless. And to Naruto this bond means everything. Loneliness is a much repeated theme in this manga and the pain it brings. So when Naruto finally found someone he could make bonds with, is it not understandable why he would want to be a "fool" to get Sasuke back?
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img13/5149/0153ei.jpg[/qimg]
! As for Part 2 (Shippuden) and his constant whining over Sasuke I need to say his character does get annoying. I understand his initial enthusiasm to bring Sasuke but after Sasuke undoubtedly proved he wanted nothing to do with Konoha and his past friends anymore…frankly I just think Naruto is being an ass for trying to force Sasuke to come back.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img714/6707/016rrc.jpg[/qimg]
! Wrapping this all up the only characterization flaws I can find are not the change in characters after Part 1. Naruto was always stubborn and willful. Sasuke was always dark and vengeful (after the Uchiha incident). The flaws I find are their characteristics enunciated to an annoying degree in Part 2. Naruto is too stubborn and willful, to the point he'd accept Sasuke even if he plans on destroying Konoha. Sasuke is too damn vengeful to the point he'd destroy all of Konoha over the mistakes of others. Besides their trademark personalities being overdone in Part 2 I think they make a great contrast of "good" and "evil" to each other, an appropriate rivalry.
! Forgive the sob story for Sasuke and ignore all the ways you can turn "bonding" into gay jokes. :ninja:
OK Boar turn to counter smore, Outerspec, and my post. IDK Why he pretended like Kishi wasn't hinting Sasuke might take this path, but hey thats boar stance so lets see him back it up. Instead of people having a orgasm over his summaries/jokes.
By the way, you anime guys can shove right off. This here's manga country - we don't take kindly to you coloreds.
Hey, I don't like that attitude. Not everything in the world is black and white.
http://a.imageshack.us/img827/4013/0011j.jpg
This is kinda long (an understatement) so I put this in spoilers.
! Well now, I understand quite a few people would have a problem in Sasuke's seemingly sudden change in attitude. His turning to the dark side and subsequent apprenticeship under Orochimaru. But honestly, his change was subtle, faster at times, but the darkness took years to accumulate.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img46/4761/010mob.jpg
! Sasuke was at the ripe age of…7 when his entire clan was murdered in 1 night. To make matters worse, psychologically at least, he was lead to believe this was solely done by his own elder brother, Uchiha Itachi. This led to his 2 primary goals and ambitions in his life. The revival of the Uchiha Clan and of course.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img13/4236/011nh.jpg
! Extracting vengeance on Uchiha Itachi. But Sasuke, as he is now, was no where near as bad as the Sasuke we were introduced to. Remember this?
! http://a.imageshack.us/img808/7120/0131.jpg
! Yes, it's Sasuke protecting Naruto from danger! So what happened after Naruto and Sasuke's tag team duo against Zabuza? Their combined efforts against Haku and later on Gaara? What happened to this Sasuke!?
! http://a.imageshack.us/img44/8291/012cby.jpg
! He happened.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9190/001bit.jpg
! That man is the bringer of darkness to that kid's life.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img824/3706/0151t.jpg
! Itachi has lead Sasuke down the dark path and no matter how much Sasuke tried to fight it he couldn't win. He wanted strength and he was manipulated down the dark path over time.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img96/4120/005nqi.jpg
! This is why the "fuckup" left Konoha. He was mind fucked and still is. It's not like the change in character was a complete 180. Sasuke had slowly been singking into darkness since he was 7 years old.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img440/838/013zp.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img72/2450/014xh.jpg
! He betrayed Konoha to seek a strength and power. Hate was all he knew to reach his main goal and he wasn't strong enough to fight it. Essentially he failed to hold on to and acknowledge what he had before running to Orochimaru. He had friends and strength but he disregarded it. All for the above reasons.
! Now on to Naruto this will be much shorter. From what I discern the problem you have with him is his self admitting "foolish" determination to chase after Sasuke.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img827/2495/0152e.jpg
! It's because of the bond they share, a bond he fees stronger than Sasuke, but a bond nonetheless. And to Naruto this bond means everything. Loneliness is a much repeated theme in this manga and the pain it brings. So when Naruto finally found someone he could make bonds with, is it not understandable why he would want to be a "fool" to get Sasuke back?
! http://a.imageshack.us/img13/5149/0153ei.jpg
! As for Part 2 (Shippuden) and his constant whining over Sasuke I need to say his character does get annoying. I understand his initial enthusiasm to bring Sasuke but after Sasuke undoubtedly proved he wanted nothing to do with Konoha and his past friends anymore…frankly I just think Naruto is being an ass for trying to force Sasuke to come back.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img714/6707/016rrc.jpg
! Wrapping this all up the only characterization flaws I can find are not the change in characters after Part 1. Naruto was always stubborn and willful. Sasuke was always dark and vengeful (after the Uchiha incident). The flaws I find are their characteristics enunciated to an annoying degree in Part 2. Naruto is too stubborn and willful, to the point he'd accept Sasuke even if he plans on destroying Konoha. Sasuke is too damn vengeful to the point he'd destroy all of Konoha over the mistakes of others. Besides their trademark personalities being overdone in Part 2 I think they make a great contrast of "good" and "evil" to each other, an appropriate rivalry.
! Forgive the sob story for Sasuke and ignore all the ways you can turn "bonding" into gay jokes. :ninja:
I understand the fact that Itachi goaded him further and further into his descent, how it had loomed over his head beforehand for all that time. The problem I found was the execution. It wasn't that there was no backing to Sasuke giving in to his drive to kill his brother as much as it was when we finally hit the moment he decided to turn his back on everyone to do so. There didn't seem to be any grey area to it when given the offer by the Sound 4. They humiliated him, yes, and even pushed him in regards to his brother. But the transition seemed too jarring with how quick it was, even with all that considered.
But with that in mind, I wasn't really there to focus as much on Sasuke as Naruto. That said, spot on job.
You know, I was about to use a joke similar to that… but a lot more harsh and racial.
The whole Rescue Sasuke story was one long hallway of flaws.
And the final battle wasn't high-quality.
What final battle?
Haven't seen Naruto and Sasuke crossed their swords yet. :ninja:
His turning to the dark side
I'm gonna be serious. This made me burst out laughing for some reason.
I don't know. "Turning to the dark side"? Is that really an accurate way to describe it?
Kishi managed to burn down Sasuke's own character development by making him go to the dark side. Shit, even Darth Vader still turned out to be a softy after he went to the dark side. Sasuke lost everything that had been built up about him through all of part one. He lost bonds made, vows taken and any shred of personal growth. Sasuke going into the darkness is one thing, but Kishi decided to ignore everything he learned. Every chance he gets, he makes Sasuke say something about how he doesn't care about it any more, how it doesn't matter, and how none of that happened, especially in the friends department. Worst of all, he's been at it for a while now. He's had half of the series to resolve such things in his mind. If any of it does come back in the final battle, it will just make him seem really really slow and even contradict the anti-development, which might turn out worse.
True if he gets a tan .
I really feel like reading part 1 again now.
[qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img827/4013/0011j.jpg[/qimg]
This is kinda long (an understatement) so I put this in spoilers.
! Well now, I understand quite a few people would have a problem in Sasuke's seemingly sudden change in attitude. His turning to the dark side and subsequent apprenticeship under Orochimaru. But honestly, his change was subtle, faster at times, but the darkness took years to accumulate.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img46/4761/010mob.jpg[/qimg]
! Sasuke was at the ripe age of…7 when his entire clan was murdered in 1 night. To make matters worse, psychologically at least, he was lead to believe this was solely done by his own elder brother, Uchiha Itachi. This led to his 2 primary goals and ambitions in his life. The revival of the Uchiha Clan and of course.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img13/4236/011nh.jpg[/qimg]
! Extracting vengeance on Uchiha Itachi. But Sasuke as he is now (current storyline) is no where near the same as the Sasuke we were introduced to. Remember this?
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img808/7120/0131.jpg[/qimg]
! Yes, it's Sasuke protecting Naruto from danger! So what happened after Naruto and Sasuke's tag team duo against Zabuza? Their combined efforts against Haku and later on Gaara? What happened to this Sasuke!?
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img44/8291/012cby.jpg[/qimg]
! He happened.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img714/9190/001bit.jpg[/qimg]
! That man is the bringer of darkness to that kid's life.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img824/3706/0151t.jpg[/qimg]
! Itachi has lead Sasuke down the dark path and no matter how much Sasuke tried to fight it he couldn't win. He wanted strength and he was manipulated down the dark path over time.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img96/4120/005nqi.jpg[/qimg]
! This is why the "fuckup" left Konoha. He was mind fucked and still is. It's not like the change in character was a complete 180. Sasuke had slowly been singking into darkness since he was 7 years old.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img440/838/013zp.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img72/2450/014xh.jpg[/qimg]
! He betrayed Konoha to seek a strength and power. Hate was all he knew to reach his main goal and he wasn't strong enough to fight it. Essentially he failed to hold on to and acknowledge what he had before running to Orochimaru. He had friends and strength but he disregarded it. All for the above reasons.
! Now on to Naruto this will be much shorter. From what I discern the problem you have with him is his self admitting "foolish" determination to chase after Sasuke.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img827/2495/0152e.jpg[/qimg]
! It's because of the bond they share, a bond he feels stronger than Sasuke, but a bond nonetheless. And to Naruto this bond means everything. Loneliness is a much repeated theme in this manga and the pain it brings. So when Naruto finally found someone he could make bonds with, is it not understandable why he would want to be a "fool" to get Sasuke back?
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img13/5149/0153ei.jpg[/qimg]
! As for Part 2 (Shippuden) and his constant whining over Sasuke I need to say his character does get annoying. I understand his initial enthusiasm to bring Sasuke back but after Sasuke undoubtedly proved he wanted nothing to do with Konoha and his past friends anymore…frankly I just think Naruto is being an ass for trying to force Sasuke to come back.
! [qimg]http://a.imageshack.us/img714/6707/016rrc.jpg[/qimg]
! Wrapping this all up the only characterization flaws I can find are not the change in characters after Part 1. Naruto was always stubborn and willful. Sasuke was always dark and vengeful (after the Uchiha incident). The flaws I find are their characteristics enunciated to an annoying degree in Part 2. Naruto is too stubborn and willful, to the point he'd accept Sasuke even if he plans on destroying Konoha. Sasuke is too damn vengeful to the point he'd destroy all of Konoha over the mistakes of others. Besides their trademark personalities being overdone in Part 2 I think they make a great contrast of "good" and "evil" to each other, an appropriate rivalry.
! Forgive the sob story for Sasuke and ignore all the ways you can turn "bonding" into gay jokes. :ninja:
Personally, I think that what makes Naruto's pursuit of Sasuke so frustrating is that Kishimoto did a poor job in setting up their "bond". Were they rivals in Part 1? Yes, definitely. But were they ever really friends? I never really felt like they were. Sasuke does save Naruto's life in the first arc and there are a few lines which show they might be growing closer, but there was really never any interaction between them that signaled true friendship. So now, in Part 2 whenever Naruto talks about Sasuke being his best friend, I kind of just roll my eyes.
@Badass:
I'm gonna be serious. This made me burst out laughing for some reason.
I don't know. "Turning to the dark side"? Is that really an accurate way to describe it?
Yep, I knew a few people would laugh at that since it sounded so much like a Star Wars reference but I was juggling with "turn to the emo side", "turn to the darkness", and "go bitch ass crazy". My mind is silly like that. :happy:
I understand the fact that Itachi goaded him further and further into his descent, how it had loomed over his head beforehand for all that time. The problem I found was the execution. It wasn't that there was no backing to Sasuke giving in to his drive to kill his brother as much as it was when we finally hit the moment he decided to turn his back on everyone to do so. There didn't seem to be any grey area to it when given the offer by the Sound 4. They humiliated him, yes, and even pushed him in regards to his brother. But the transition seemed too jarring with how quick it was, even with all that considered.
But with that in mind, I wasn't really there to focus as much on Sasuke as Naruto. That said, spot on job.
I see, I didn't think the transition was as quick as it's made out to be but I understand the majority of the blog will disagree with this. The execution I found was handled well too because I thought Kishi made us well aware in advance that Sasuke was slowly turning.
Besides that, I very much enjoyed reading your analysis so I must say thank you for the debate and I await for the continuation of it in your Part 3.
Kishi managed to burn down Sasuke's own character development by making him go to the dark side. Shit, even Darth Vader still turned out to be a softy after he went to the dark side. Sasuke lost everything that had been built up about him through all of part one. He lost bonds made, vows taken and any shred of personal growth. Sasuke going into the darkness is one thing, but Kishi decided to ignore everything he learned. Every chance he gets, he makes Sasuke say something about how he doesn't care about it any more, how it doesn't matter, and how none of that happened, especially in the friends department. Worst of all, he's been at it for a while now. He's had half of the series to resolve such things in his mind. If any of it does come back in the final battle, it will just make him seem really really slow and even contradict the anti-development, which might turn out worse.
Ah, but Sasuke didn't lose everything he learned and developed in Part 1. Even after turning "to the dark side" hears Snocone laughing. Even after betraying Konoha and leaving to train under Orochimaru. Even after killing Itachi and learning the truth of his further manipulation. Sasuke still had his moments of friendship and camaraderie.
!
This is 414 chapters into the manga. Even then, Sasuke still had some light in him. Now one could say Sasuke has lost and forgotten what he was given but it just proves it was a very slow and gradual process. Even now (chapter 505) I think he's not completely evil and Naruto can turn him. That's what Naruto does after all.
Edit: @Waka:
Personally, I think that what makes Naruto's pursuit of Sasuke so frustrating is that Kishimoto did a poor job in setting up their "bond". Were they rivals in Part 1? Yes, definitely. But were they ever really friends? I never really felt like they were. Sasuke does save Naruto's life in the first arc and there are a few lines which show they might be growing closer, but there was really never any interaction between them that signaled true friendship. So now, in Part 2 whenever Naruto talks about Sasuke being his best friend, I kind of just roll my eyes.
Yeah, that's something I hit upon. Naruto felt this "bond" stronger than Sasuke did. And from that bond is Naruto's inspiration to chase Sasuke to the ends of the earth and bring him back to Konoha. A tad annoying, yes. But I think it's the heart that matters.
Kishi managed to burn down Sasuke's own character development by making him go to the dark side. Shit, even Darth Vader still turned out to be a softy after he went to the dark side. Sasuke lost everything that had been built up about him through all of part one. He lost bonds made, vows taken and any shred of personal growth. Sasuke going into the darkness is one thing, but Kishi decided to ignore everything he learned. Every chance he gets, he makes Sasuke say something about how he doesn't care about it any more, how it doesn't matter, and how none of that happened, especially in the friends department. Worst of all, he's been at it for a while now. He's had half of the series to resolve such things in his mind. If any of it does come back in the final battle, it will just make him seem really really slow and even contradict the anti-development, which might turn out worse.
Darth Vadar had a light side at the end. He was killing people left and right. Naruto didn't end yet. I think Sasuke saying those things is him blocking out what he learned. Look at wat the sound 4 told him http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-179/page009.html He was removing his purpose to kill Itachi with Naruto and his friends(So he thinks atleast). It's funny how you mention him forgetting things because I think he does it on purpose. He tries to block it out. Look at Sakura trying to stop him by telling him about their memories, but all he says is I don't remember. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-181/page011.html Do you ever watch the Wire?? It's similar to this scene
I see, I didn't think the transition was as quick as it's made out to be but I understand the majority of the blog will disagree with this. The execution I found was handled well too because I thought Kishi made us well aware in advance that Sasuke was slowly turning.
Besides that, I very much enjoyed reading your analysis so I must say thank you for the debate and I await for the continuation of it in your Part 3.
I like you. You're civil.
I won't argue that Sasuke was shown to be losing his grip, especially after the carnival ride known as Tsukuyomi. The thing I would argue against is the decision itself, and exactly how much thought he put into it.
But I believe this is the fourth part, yes?
This is 414 chapters into the manga. Even then, Sasuke still had some light in him. Now one could say Sasuke has lost and forgotten what he was given but it just proves it was a very slow and gradual process. Even now (chapter 505) -I think he's not completely evil and Naruto can turn him.- That's what Naruto does after all.
This, however, is something you really should probably elaborate on.
I still say the Naruto vs. Sasuke final fight is going to end in a hug, and it will blind the weaker readers.
Personally, I think that what makes Naruto's pursuit of Sasuke so frustrating is that Kishimoto did a poor job in setting up their "bond". Were they rivals in Part 1? Yes, definitely. But were they ever really friends? I never really felt like they were. Sasuke does save Naruto's life in the first arc and there are a few lines which show they might be growing closer, but there was really never any interaction between them that signaled true friendship. So now, in Part 2 whenever Naruto talks about Sasuke being his best friend, I kind of just roll my eyes.
Sasuke and Naruto being friends were shown pretty clearly. They were rivals, but friends. They are not going to come out and say unless it's something crazy going on. They both like to act tough and crap, but lets examine Sasuke. Sasuke goes to check up on Naruto because he doesn't come home. Helps Naruto here http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-021/page018.html
helps Naruto back home. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-022/page002.html
He also risk his life for Naruto. IDK wat else u want from him to show it.
I think the whole thing with Sasuke was that he was… well, obsessed. Obsessed with wanting to kill Itachi. He always was, but then he started to soften up with being with Naruto and crew.
Of course, as you know, he then got the crud beat out of him by Itachi, who then proceeded to mind rape him with his family being killed again, again and again. I mean... I don't think any person would be sane if they were subjected to such a thing. His abrupt final decision really shouldn't be that hard to swallow given so.
And even when he leaves, he does tell Sakura that he thought he could follow a road where he stays with Naruto and crew. So it's not as if he DIDN'T learn anything. It's just that after the whole Itachi fight thing, his desire for his death hits the top of his mind again and ultimantly he goes down his dark road.
It's supposed to be a "It's such a shame... It just wasn't enough" type moment.
I like you. You're civil.
I won't argue that Sasuke was shown to be losing his grip, especially after the carnival ride known as Tsukuyomi. The thing I would argue against is the decision itself, and exactly how much thought he put into it.
But I believe this is the fourth part, yes?
This, however, is something you really should probably elaborate on.
Thank you, and what I mean by Naruto turning people I'm referring to the usual trend he has with his enemies. #1 Example; the badass, cold-hearted, and ruthless Zabuza.
! Naruto with a few words turned him into a weeping ninja with all the dignity of a ninja to boot, and he went out with pride intact. Next up Naruto's most powerful villain to date, Nagato.
! Destroyed Naruto's entire village and after a face to face encounter with Naruto he turned and revived all he had killed (recently). Then there is Gaara of course.
! One of Naruto's earlier turners. The guy went from crazy killer to calm, cool headed, caring leader. So when I say "Naruto will turn Sasuke" I'm working off of past examples. All enemies that seemed (were?) ruthless, cold-hearted, killing machines after encountering Naruto's determination, as lame as it sounds they see the light. There were other people Naruto influenced like Neji and Tsunade but I wouldn't categorize them with the above character's "evilness".
!
Thank you, and what I mean by Naruto turning people I'm referring to the usual trend he has with his enemies. #1 Example; the badass, cold-hearted, and ruthless Zabuza.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img691/1076/0121p.jpgNaruto with a few words turned him into a weeping ninja with all the dignity of a ninja to boot, and he went out with pride intact. Next up Naruto's most powerful villain to date, Nagato.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img840/2967/019mv.jpgDestroyed Naruto's entire village and after a face to face encounter with Naruto he turned and revived all he had killed (recently). Then there is Gaara of course.
! http://a.imageshack.us/img245/4061/0101wq.jpgOne of Naruto's earlier turners. The guy went from crazy killer to calm, cool headed, caring leader. So when I say "Naruto will turn Sasuke" I'm working off of past examples. All enemies that seemed (were?) ruthless, cold-hearted, killing machines after encountering Naruto's determination, as lame as it sounds they see the light. There were other people Naruto influenced like Neji and Tsunade but I wouldn't categorize them with the above character's "evilness".
talk no jutsu is Naruto most powerful jutsu. I am surprised Sasuke lasted this long. Raikage seems to be immune too.
Ah, but Sasuke didn't lose everything he learned and developed in Part 1. Even after turning "to the dark side" hears Snocone laughing. Even after betraying Konoha and leaving to train under Orochimaru. Even after killing Itachi and learning the truth of his further manipulation. Sasuke still had his moments of friendship and camaraderie.
This is 414 chapters into the manga. Even then, Sasuke still had some light in him. Now one could say Sasuke has lost and forgotten what he was given but it just proves it was a very slow and gradual process. Even now (chapter 505) I think he's not completely evil and Naruto can turn him. That's what Naruto does after all.
Edit:
Yeah, that's something I hit upon. Naruto felt this "bond" stronger than Sasuke did. And from that bond is Naruto's inspiration to chase Sasuke to the ends of the earth and bring him back to Konoha. A tad annoying, yes. But I think it's the heart that matters.
I'll admit I forgot about that page, but it seems to be the only indication that he remembers Konoha at all.
The biggest problem with Sasuke is that he becomes inexplicably evil. This really got intolerable after the fight with Itachi. Before, you can justify him somewhat and even call him a somewhat reasonable guy (he rebelled against Orochimaru and freed some of the dudes test subjects from creepy experiments). After the Itachi fight, he just goes apeshit for no good reason. Even if you could reconcile his convoluted reasons for wanting to destroy Konoha and team up with Madara, how he acts after that really can't be justified. Even if he was mad at the officials at Konoha, how could he forget the fact that just about everyone else admired him and wanted to be friends with him? The jump into darkness there seemed arbitrary. He finished going to the dark side for power and gained a new goal where he thought he was justified, but then he turns on his new companions, turns on everyone in Konoha, turns on the entire ninja world and joins the clearly evil guy that really didn't offer him much. Everything from part one is gone in favor of making him Naruto's prize catch.
I noticed all the pics of the Naruto vs Sasuke fight were from Chapters 217/218.
Was their fight really 20 chapters long? :O
The biggest problem with Sasuke is that he becomes inexplicably evil. This really got intolerable after the fight with Itachi. Before, you can justify him somewhat and even call him a somewhat reasonable guy (he rebelled against Orochimaru and freed some of the dudes test subjects from creepy experiments). After the Itachi fight, he just goes apeshit for no good reason. Even if you could reconcile his convoluted reasons for wanting to destroy Konoha and team up with Madara, how he acts after that really can't be justified. Even if he was mad at the officials at Konoha, how could he forget the fact that just about everyone else admired him and wanted to be friends with him? The jump into darkness there seemed arbitrary. He finished going to the dark side for power and gained a new goal where he thought he was justified, but then he turns on his new companions, turns on everyone in Konoha, turns on the entire ninja world and joins the clearly evil guy that really didn't offer him much. Everything from part one is gone in favor of making him Naruto's prize catch.
I keep telling everyone that the real reason Sasuke's acting like such a dickhole is because Madara is manipulating him with his evil eye power. That way it'll be an easy out for Sasuke to be redeemed since he was being mind-controlled the whole time.
And yes, that is mind-blowingly stupid.
EDIT: @KI: Half of those chapters were dedicated to Sasuke's overly long and unnecessary flashback.
Unfortunately, that seems likely, based on Kishi's recent writing trends. Nonetheless, if that does happen, I'll throw my head against the desk with the same force as I would in the case that Sasuke decided to be evil and then snap out by himself. Really, there's no non-stupid conclusion.
Darth Vadar had a light side at the end. He was killing people left and right. Naruto didn't end yet. I think Sasuke saying those things is him blocking out what he learned. Look at wat the sound 4 told him http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-179/page009.html He was removing his purpose to kill Itachi with Naruto and his friends(So he thinks atleast). It's funny how you mention him forgetting things because I think he does it on purpose. He tries to block it out. Look at Sakura trying to stop him by telling him about their memories, but all he says is I don't remember. http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-181/page011.html Do you ever watch the Wire?? It's similar to this scene
Both of those pages are from the Zabusa arc, Team 7's first real mission. At that point, Naruto and Sasuke had just begun training together and pretty much hated each other. (They showed great teamwork against Zabusa with the whole "fake windmill shuriken" strategy, though.) Their rivalry was beginning and the mission would ultimately bring them closer together, but are you going to argue that they were already friends at that point? That seems a little farfetched to me.
Friends laugh together, have fun together, show kindness towards each other, and so on. We hardly saw anything of the sort with Naruto and Sasuke, which makes their "friendship" a little hard to swallow. Shikamaru and Chouji are way more believable as best friends, and we only learned about their relationship in a short flashback.
Also, friendships tend to end when one party attempts to kill the other and is unrepentant about it.
It's clear that Naruto and Sasuke have an important bond, but as Outerspec said, Naruto seems way more invested in their "friendship" than Sasuke, which leaves him seeming obsessed – hardly an attractive quality for the main character.
I still say the Naruto vs. Sasuke final fight is going to end in a hug, and it will blind the weaker readers.
Well, Naruto did defeat his dark side by giving it a hug, so…
Oh yeah, now I remember that flashback taking like four episodes of the anime.
Did anything actually happen in the flashback? Besides what should've took like 5 minutes?
Late to think of this, but Wagomu, I am disappoint. I found this:
yNvwu7PN_eI
Which you didn't think to use to persuade me in the war.
Edit: Also this-[hide]7qumhHYE2_o[/hide]
@KI: As far as I remember, the flashback was mainly showing us stuff we already kinda knew, plus affirming that the Uchiha clan specialized in fire stuff, which thinking about Itachi's Amateresu, is also something we already kinda knew. So yeah, kind of pointless that it was THAT long, but in terms of placement, I can see what Kishi was attempting. Didn't work so well when it took a while to show us no new information…
On this Sasuke character issue…is everyone basically saying that he was good in the majority of Part 1 but turned to crap in the Rescue Sasuke arc-Part 2? Because that's what I'm getting from all this.
@Mr.:
On this Sasuke character issue…is everyone basically saying that he was good in the majority of Part 1 but turned to crap in the Rescue Sasuke arc-Part 2? Because that's what I'm getting from all this.
He was acceptable and building toward likable before suddenly turning into an evil prick. There were reasons, but to destroy what was being built that quickly with no internal conflict/remorse at all comes across very badly. And he never improved after his turn. He just nosedived as a character.
He was acceptable and building toward likable before suddenly turning into an evil prick. There were reasons, but to destroy what was being built that quickly with no internal conflict/remorse at all comes across very badly. And he never improved after his turn. He just nosedived as a character.
Ah I see. My brain's sorta fried right now so I got a bit lost in the discussion.
From what I've come to understand, Sasuke kind of had this 'anti-social' edge to him for a while. A basically understandable edge considering his shitty past and his brother. Naruto, being the cheery fucker he is, wanted to show off to Sasuke, as both an attempt to be better than him (and to be his lover friend).
As the series went on, Sasuke DID improve. He was slowly becoming a far more friendlier character…...
Until we randomly had a 360 turn around for him, and now he's, "I hate everything, I want to kill all of you for bullshit reasons, and I want to make creepy faces that look like 'someone took a shit on your pillows, and you'll never guess who did it'.
From what I've come to understand, Sasuke kind of had this 'anti-social' edge to him for a while. A basically understandable edge considering his shitty past and his brother. Naruto, being the cheery fucker he is, wanted to show off to Sasuke, as both an attempt to be better than him (and to be his
loverfriend).As the series went on, Sasuke DID improve. He was slowly becoming a far more friendlier character…...
Until we randomly had a 360 turn around for him, and now he's, "I hate everything, I want to kill all of you for bullshit reasons, and I want to make creepy faces that look like 'someone took a shit on your pillows, and you'll never guess who did it'.
I think you mean 180, my dear insider.
And if you call yourself Naruto threaders, then you'll go vote for Ken-motha-fukkin-Shiro!
And if you call yourself Naruto threaders, then you'll go vote for Ken-motha-fukkin-Shiro!
Huh? Special match today in tournament or something? goes to look and vote
Edit: The modspoll-maker (to avoid anyone being picky) forgot our newest hero Chikmagnet7. The poll is invalid.