justice changes on which side you are , remember that , marines just do what they think that is right
The Marines vs The Pirates
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@metteminne:
justice changes on which side you are , remember that , marines just do what they think that is right
Everybody does what they think is "right", but the problem with "right" is that its meaning differs between each individual person.
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I predict that when we fully understand why everything has happend in the way it's gone down, we will all realize that the elder stars didnt do these things because their checklist for the day has a row for one unmitigated act of evil a day check. But rather because when you are stuck betwenn a rock and a hard place then sometimes hard cruel choices has to be made.
And when the worlds on your shoulders you cant always for the greater good afford to "do the right thing", leaving lots of things you wish hadnt happend that tear on your conscience. But actions that are so important that you would've done the same if the choice had to be made again today.
I'd imagine them to end up as sort of similar Amanda Rockwaller from JLU. In that maybe you cant forgive them for all the horrible things that they've done, but you can put yourself in their shoes and ponder if you given the same hand to play wouldnt have done the same.
But maybe i'll be way of, we'll just have to wait and see.
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I think the whole point of Oda's writing is their are goods and evils within each organization.
There is no golden rule.
The big contrast of Piracy verse Marines though is Freedom vrs Mass Control. So in the pirates eyes, where freedom is bliss the Marines are the enemy.
But as they stated back at Water 7, The pirates don't normally actively go after marines. Its not like pirates are out sailing to purposely get in confrontation with the marines. Thats what the rebels do.
WG = Enemy against freedom
But freedom can = choas/anarchy though.
it becomes an existentialism where the minds of the individuals conduct actions deemed unlawful by others. Luffy and Kidd are the opposites of the same freedom coin.
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I thought there was a strict rule on no vs. threads.
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If this was a real vs thread the pirates would wipe the floor with the marines.
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If this was a real vs thread the pirates would wipe the floor with the marines.
The pirates aren't united, The Marines are.
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The pirates aren't united, The Marines are.
That's just it, a real versus thread ignores personality.
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The talk about versus threads reminds me of that place from NarutoFan.
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I used to post a lot in there, to my shame.
I'm addicted to arguments though and that was the cheap crack that filled my needs.
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Seriously, having a forum devoted to fights between different comic book characters and different cartoon characters, as well as various others is way too nerdy. And it's even worse considering how people there actually take the arguments seriously.
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Seriously, having a forum devoted to fights between different comic book characters and different cartoon characters, as well as various others is way too nerdy. And it's even worse conisdering how people there actually take the arguments seriously.
nods in agreement
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I like vs threads when the characters are in the same universe and thus can be easily matched up but it gets a little stupid when you throw two random characters from different universes together to see what sticks. There's a much greater room for error (you get people making Sasuke vs Goku threads and thinking it's a fair fight) and people bring in speed feats they've got from using real world physics to measure the distance and speed a character moved in two tiny panels.
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Lol Goku has no chakra. Genjutsu is weakened I tell you.
But yeah, the calculations people make for fictional characters as well as the silly rules they have for what fictional characters do (like that toonforce thing) really demonstrate how too nerdy the place is.
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I don't read manga to argue which character is stronger. That is just stupid.
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I just follow one rule.
Kenshiro beats paper, rock, and, scissors
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I just follow one rule.
Kenshiro beats paper, rock, and, scissors
This the truth of truths.
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The 5 elder stars themseleves have done nothing indefensible if the Void Century is as dangerous as they make it out to be (and it almost certainly is).
Why is there any reason to think that? I've seen the argument "even Gold Roger's crew shut up about the true history, it must be bad" but then why did Roger want the history to be found? It seems to me that he does want it to be revealed, no matter what it does to the world government, but he didn't at the time because he was going to die.
But I don't see why you would argue for keeping it hidden. It's just history. Maybe something incredibly horrible happened in the past, but so what? Should we erase African slavery from the past, or the Nanjing massacre, or the Holocaust? If the World Government was responsible for whatever happened in the past, why do they deserve to get away with it scot-free?
I don't believe the elder stars are actually trying to be evil. They may have good intentions, but I don't think that makes them good people.
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The 5 elder stars themseleves have done nothing indefensible if the Void Century is as dangerous as they make it out to be (and it almost certainly is).
dangerous to who? -.-…. dangerous to them! thats who!
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This post is deleted!
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Whenever it comes to this argument, I'm always reminded of the same thing.
http://haven-reader.net/index.php?mode=view&series=One+Piece&chapter=Chapter+319&page=7&next=true
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It's an old thread, but I wanted to share my opinion on things.
First, I know most of you are probably gonna disagree with me, but I can't really think that pirates, even the likes of Luffy are "good" people. Even if they don't do any actual piracing, it's still a crime. They fullfilly know that and they still raise a jolly roger, witch makes marines and bounty hunters come after them. Then they'll have to beat them up and even kill them (like the 23 marine ships that were supposed to guard Whitebeard). They willingly waste the marine's resources that could be used to catch some actual threats, not to mention that their existence alone strikes fear in the civilians hearts. It's like if in the real world some morons would declare themselves terrorists and then start fighting the cops when they came to arrest them. There's just no reason in that. Of course there are the likes of Robin and Fisher Tiger who had witnessed the dark side of the goverment and had actual reasons to hate it, but how many pirates have that excuse? When you think about it, both Hiruluk and Luffy manipulated naive little Chopper to think that piracy was something awesome without mentioning that it also happens to be illegal. That's kinda despicable if you ask me. :ermm:
Then there are the marines and the goverment. Like we all know, there's are all kinds of people wearing the marine uniform, from insane extremists like Akainu to genuinely civilian-caring people like Smoker. I believe that most of marines are genuinely good guys who want to protect people, or at least neutral doing-their-job guys like Kizaru. There's really no hint that most of them are evil and it would be really hard for the goverment to earn people's trust if the marines just chased runaway slaves and bombed whole towns to kill a few criminals all the time.
As for the goverment, well, most of the citizens seem to have relatively decent and free lives so it obviously isn't a totally totalitarianistic, even if there is an indefinite amount of corruption in it. Even if the goverment turns blind eye to the world nobles slavery practice, it should be noticed that slavery is still outlawed in most of the world. Why would a goverment that isn't least bit intrested about human rights bother with that. Even the ties with the Fishman island were proposed by the goverment in the first place.
I don't know about the gorosei tough. I don't think they're completely evil at least, since ordering the buster call for Ohara was such a hard desicion for them (or at least for the gandalf guy), even tough they even planned to evacuate everyone who wasn't an archeologist. Not to mention that they might have done it to protect the world from ancient weapons in the first place. If you ask me, most of the corruption in the world goverment seems to be involved with the world nobles.
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@Light:
I can't really think that pirates, even the likes of Luffy are "good" people. When you think about it, both Hiruluk and Luffy manipulated naive little Chopper to think that piracy was something awesome without mentioning that it also happens to be illegal. That's kinda despicable if you ask me. :ermm:
What do you define as a good person? Surely the Strawhats (even if they don't associate themselves as heroes) have done PLENTY of good deeds for their world. So yes, pirates may not necessarily be good, but Luffy definitely is.
Secondly, while pirates do engage in immoral behaviors in the OP world, a pirate symbolically represents commendable elements such as freedom, comradeship and courage. It is these elements that Luffy and Dr. Hiruluk tried to promote to Chopper, not the act of piracy itself.
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The contemporary formula "Breaking law = criminal = bad" only works in a civilized society where laws are, comparatively speaking, fair.
This is not the case with One Piece "World Government" laws.
So this entire argument of OMG THEY BREAK LAWS THEY BAD doesn't work to an absolute, not even close.
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Marines vs. Pirates is not a black, and white situation. Theres good and bad on both.
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What do you define as a good person? Surely the Strawhats (even if they don't associate themselves as heroes) have done PLENTY of good deeds for their world. So yes, pirates may not necessarily be good, but Luffy definitely is.
Secondly, while pirates do engage in immoral behaviors in the OP world, a pirate symbolically represents commendable elements such as freedom, comradeship and courage. It is these elements that Luffy and Dr. Hiruluk tried to promote to Chopper, not the act of piracy itself.
Sure the straw hats have done plenty of heroic deeds in the past, but I don't see it that simple. They still have beaten plenty of marines and some bounty hunters in hospital condition, even tough they wouldn't have to fight them if they didn't become pirates in the first place. Why did they have to join the straw hats? Luffy wants to be a pirate king (tough I still think that isn't a good excuse) and Robin and Franky had nowhere else to go but what about the others? Zoro, Nami and Sanji (tough Zoro was kinda blackmailed by Luffy) had dreams that could have been achieved trough perfectly legal means. They didn't have to become pirates to go to the sea, it's not outlawed to own a ship.
As for the Chopper's case, Hiruluk and Luffy both clearly advertised piracy in positive light. Maybe Hiruluk didn't actually mean that Chopper should become pirate but Luffy straight up invited him in his crew.
The contemporary formula "Breaking law = criminal = bad" only works in a civilized society where laws are, comparatively speaking, fair.
This is not the case with One Piece "World Government" laws.
So this entire argument of OMG THEY BREAK LAWS THEY BAD doesn't work to an absolute, not even close.
My main point is that while there definitely is corruption in the world goverment, the marines are the only thing protecting civilians from pirates and help them feel even relatively safe. Even the "good" pirates just mess their attempts to do that even further. Now I love One Piece and the straw hats' characters but that dosen't mean that I have to agree with everything they do.
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The contemporary formula "Breaking law = criminal = bad" only works in a civilized society where laws are, comparatively speaking, fair.
This is not the case with One Piece "World Government" laws.
So this entire argument of OMG THEY BREAK LAWS THEY BAD doesn't work to an absolute, not even close.
This was really hammered home in Skypeia when Conis was compared to a pirate for breaking Enel's laws.
@Light:
My main point is that while there definitely is corruption in the world goverment, the marines are the only thing protecting civilians from pirates and help them feel even relatively safe. Even the "good" pirates just mess their attempts to do that even further. Now I love One Piece and the straw hats' characters but that dosen't mean that I have to agree with everything they do.
What exactly have they done that you disagree with? Anything other than convince Chopper to go on an adventure? You talk as if all forms of revolution are evil too just because they consume government resources. The Straw Hats don't make the WG devote resources to them. The WG chooses how to use those for themselves. They could easily recognize that the Straw Hats haven't caused any problems for civilians and leave them alone if that was really their concern. Whitebeard protected a lot of peaceful islands himself, so the same argument could be made of the WG for disrupting that and making the lives of those citizens exponentially more difficult by starting a war with him.
I'm not saying that the WG is some evil entity or anything either. It's a mixed bag with them, and there are a lot of Marines especially with pure motives, and there are also tons of evil pirates on the other side. That doesn't mean that everyone else should just submit to the WG's tyranny, though. And that's what it is, too, lest we forget that bridge in East Blue that Robin landed on.
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This was really hammered home in Skypeia when Conis was compared to a pirate for breaking Enel's laws.
What exactly have they done that you disagree with? Anything other than convince Chopper to go on an adventure? You talk as if all forms of revolution are evil too just because they consume government resources. The Straw Hats don't make the WG devote resources to them. The WG chooses how to use those for themselves. They could easily recognize that the Straw Hats haven't caused any problems for civilians and leave them alone if that was really their concern. Whitebeard protected a lot of peaceful islands himself, so the same argument could be made of the WG for disrupting that and making the lives of those citizens exponentially more difficult by starting a war with him.
I get your point. Good and evil is definitely not that simple in One Piece. There's lot's of good doing pirates out there, but the problem is that there's lot's of bad doing pirates too. It is the marines job to capture every potential threat, they can't just go and ask: "Excuse me, Mr. pirate but were you planning to pillage any villages this week?" I don't want to repeat this too often but "recources" mean mostly hard-working marine soldiers who get badly injured and sometimes even die fighting the pirates. I'm not trying to force anyone thinking otherwise but this is how I see it and that's it.
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@Light:
I get your point. Good and evil is definitely not that simple in One Piece. There's lot's of good doing pirates out there, but the problem is that there's lot's of bad doing pirates too. It is the marines job to capture every potential threat, they can't just go and ask: "Excuse me, Mr. pirate but were you planning to pillage any villages this week?" I don't want to repeat this too often but "recources" mean mostly hard-working marine soldiers who get badly injured and sometimes even die fighting the pirates. I'm not trying to force anyone thinking otherwise but this is how I see it and that's it.
The Marines have a good information network. They don't need to ask pirates how they act. They already know, and it's tied in with their bounties. Kid, for example, got such a high bounty before the timeskip because he attacked civilians and such. They have every reason to devote their resources (yes, that includes Marine soldiers) to capturing him.
With Luffy, his bounty basically comes out of nothing more than a grudge between the two sides. He got his first bounty for defeating Arlong and saving an island, which hurt Nezumi's personal cash flow. He got his second bounty for defeating a warlord that was attempting to destroy an entire country. Croc's deeds were bad enough to get him removed from his position regardless of that fight, but defeating one of their warlords is like a black eye for the WG. It goes on like this. The fact that they choose to waste their resources on him is their fault, not his.
You seem to be claiming that Luffy became evil as soon as he saved Nami's island from Arlong because Nezumi decided that. As if somehow the flawed system that pursues him heavily is his fault. Am I mistaken?
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The Marines have a good information network. They don't need to ask pirates how they act. They already know, and it's tied in with their bounties. Kid, for example, got such a high bounty before the timeskip because he attacked civilians and such. They have every reason to devote their resources (yes, that includes Marine soldiers) to capturing him.
With Luffy, his bounty basically comes out of nothing more than a grudge between the two sides. He got his first bounty for defeating Arlong and saving an island, which hurt Nezumi's personal cash flow. He got his second bounty for defeating a warlord that was attempting to destroy an entire country. Croc's deeds were bad enough to get him removed from his position regardless of that fight, but defeating one of their warlords is like a black eye for the WG. It goes on like this. The fact that they choose to waste their resources on him is their fault, not his.
You seem to be claiming that Luffy became evil as soon as he saved Nami's island from Arlong because Nezumi decided that. As if somehow the flawed system that pursues him heavily is his fault. Am I mistaken?
Well, Nezumi could make him wanted because he was a pirate in the first place.
But I'm not gonna argue about this anymore. This is probably one of the most controversial debates among us One Piece fans and I just wanted to share my opinion, not turning everyone else into it. I've already told my main points and if anyone's gonna disagree with them, so be it. I don't want to become an enemy of this whole forum after just joining after all.
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For me people who decide to do illegal things are bad. Robin of the hood was bad.
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Pirates are bad , lets face it only luffy, shanks and WB were showed to be god the rest wont care if they attack or help civilians so i suport the marines without a doubt , especially kizaru and aokji.
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Pirates are bad , lets face it only luffy, shanks and WB were showed to be god the rest wont care if they attack or help civilians so i suport the marines without a doubt , especially kizaru and aokji.
Uh, there were a shitload of pirates who followed Whitebeard, even outside of his crew. Not to mention the Sun Pirates, the Kuja Pirates, probably a good portion of the Supernovae… It's true that there are a lot of bad pirates, and a lot of good marines, but the marines are the military branch of an inherently oppressive government.
And why Kizaru? xD
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kizaru seems a mix , serius when he has too, pirates who are bad crocodile , arlong, krieg , kuro, the supernovas some we didnt see in action but when zoor took the guy to the hospital the supernovas didnt try to help him so the they are not good.
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And why Kizaru? xD
You know, random destruction and punishing people who hurt ruthless tyrants are how he shows he cares about the little people.
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Uh, there were a shitload of pirates who followed Whitebeard, even outside of his crew. Not to mention the Sun Pirates, the Kuja Pirates, probably a good portion of the Supernovae… It's true that there are a lot of bad pirates, and a lot of good marines, but the marines are the military branch of an inherently oppressive government.
And why Kizaru? xD
Being sympathic doesn't make you a good people. Ace killed random 50 random fodder boat without giving a shit. Supernovas doesn't give 2 shit about civilians(maybe Drake). I really think people see pirate in a way too good light.
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For me people who decide to do illegal things are bad. Robin of the hood was bad.
Have you never heard of the expression "Chaotic Good"?
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Nope. What's that?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticGood
Sorry for ruining your life in advance.
If you wish to learn about the other kinds of alignments a character can follow, go here.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticGood
Sorry for ruining your life in advance.
If you wish to learn about the other kinds of alignments a character can follow, go here.
Thanks. Doesn't ruin my life. Still thinks rules are made to be followed and that those who doesn't should get punish.
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Thanks. Doesn't ruin my life. Still thinks rules are made to be followed and that those who doesn't should get punish.
It depends on what kind of rules we are talking here, or the person/people who come up with them.
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It depends on what kind of rules we are talking here, or the person/people who come up with them.
Rules set by the society you are in.
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Rules set by the society you are in.
The society of One Piece is ruled by 5 old farts who ordered mass genocide on a bunch of people whose sole crime were trying to… learn some History.
And let's not even get started on the mass genocide of newborn babies.
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For me people who decide to do illegal things are bad. Robin of the hood was bad.
So what you're saying is that it's impossible for a government to be "bad"?
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@Sir:
So what you're saying is that it's impossible for a government to be "bad"?
No I'm saying doing forbidden things is bad.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
The society of One Piece is ruled by 5 old farts who ordered mass genocide on a bunch of people whose sole crime were trying to… learn some History.
And let's not even get started on the mass genocide of newborn babies.
I don't give two shit about problem they have with goverment. They are doing what is against the rule Just like the Oharians were doing. You don't like it? Go somewhere else. You cant? Deal with it. They knew are bad what they were doing was. And they were investigating babies not killing them. They needed the real one to show-off.
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No I'm saying doing forbidden things is bad.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I don't give two shit about problem they have with goverment. They are doing what is against the rule Just like the Oharians were doing. You don't like it? Go somewhere else. You cant? Deal with it. They knew are bad what they were doing was. And they were investigating babies not killing them. They needed the real one to show-off.
So are you saying that it's impossible for laws to be unjust? If it's always wrong to break the law, like you say, then that means that all laws must be just, and so all lawmakers must be perfectly just.
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@Sir:
So are you saying that it's impossible for laws to be unjust? If it's always wrong to break the law, like you say, then that means that all laws must be just, and so all lawmakers must be perfectly just.
Lawmakers aren't always just. But either you find a legal mean to deal with things, you shut the fuck up or you go somewhere else. But such discussions is off-topic. I personaly thinks all of the pirates of OP world are bad. Whitebeard–--> Ace sinking 50 ships, Luffy -----> Jailbreak, Shanks----> only 3 chapaters and already one death at least.
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What if there are no legal means because even trying to discuss the issue brings the government down on you? Look at the reaction Saul got from Sengoku when he made a perfectly reasonable statement about the government's poneglyph policy. The government would never have allowed the Oharans to study the poneglyphs, but the world deserves to know what happened in the blank history, so the Oharans had no other option.
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@Sir:
What if there are no legal means because even trying to discuss the issue brings the government down on you? Look at the reaction Saul got from Sengoku when he made a perfectly reasonable statement about the government's poneglyph policy. The government would never have allowed the Oharans to study the poneglyphs, but the world deserves to know what happened in the blank history, so the Oharans had no other option.
I prefer to stop the off-topic.
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This was really hammered home in Skypeia when Conis was compared to a pirate for breaking Enel's laws.
What exactly have they done that you disagree with? Anything other than convince Chopper to go on an adventure? You talk as if all forms of revolution are evil too just because they consume government resources. The Straw Hats don't make the WG devote resources to them. The WG chooses how to use those for themselves. They could easily recognize that the Straw Hats haven't caused any problems for civilians and leave them alone if that was really their concern. Whitebeard protected a lot of peaceful islands himself, so the same argument could be made of the WG for disrupting that and making the lives of those citizens exponentially more difficult by starting a war with him.
I'm not saying that the WG is some evil entity or anything either. It's a mixed bag with them, and there are a lot of Marines especially with pure motives, and there are also tons of evil pirates on the other side. That doesn't mean that everyone else should just submit to the WG's tyranny, though. And that's what it is, too, lest we forget that bridge in East Blue that Robin landed on.
To reiterate your point, and I've brought this up multiple times in the past, Whitebeard Piates were, for all intents and purposes, a governmental organization. They controlled vast lands, laid out the law against violent crimials (other pirates) and provided protection of the civilians.
Meanwhile, Big Mom does the exact same, and collects taxes.The Yonkou are, basically, kings and queens. Ruling monarchs. Regardless of their labels, they function as independent nations not tied to the interests of World Government.
If you only decide to see through World Government's eyes, they are "criminals, bad guys". But objectively speaking, they are simply another faction.
It's no different from one state calling another state "terroist state", IMO.