Chapter 588 "Sabo's Ocean" Discussion
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No One Piece chapter this week, right?
And I think Sabo is still Alive.
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No offense guys, but not only are these arguments flimsy, they are also playing right into his argument.
I can't speak for the other guy but I can't figure out why in the hell you think im arguing against Gregs point.
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@robbybedfart:
What they hell don't you understand?
Physically, they should be about the same.
Once you start changing the formula to account for the fruit, you have to change it to account for both sides, and assume OVER THE COURSE OF TEN YEARS, Sabo would ALSO get something to upgrade his abilities along the way, in whatever shape or form that might be. Be it weapon, haki, 6 forms, whatever.
Either you count the fruit and then potentially level the playing field… or you DON'T count the fruit. EITHER WAY, at their base strength, even without a DF addition, Sabo should still be monstrously strong. Stronger than Luffy, who is capable of breaking apart a city block worth of buildings.
The same way Sanji and Zoro are considered in the same "Monster" league as Luffy, for their crazy stamina, recovery ability, determination and strength, even though they lack a DF. Robin, CHopper and Brook all have DFs, but they aren't considered part of the monster trio because they don't have that same horrendous drive and power.
thats my whole argument. He needs ot have something to even the field, or else ace trumps him due to logia
they were equal when neither had a fruit, why would it be different when they grew up? thus since ace has a fruit, adn a logia at that, sabo needs something huge too, thinking that somehow he just became insane physically with no fruit is just stupid when it is shown they are the same without fruits.
and thus begins beyond speculating that sabo is alive, further speculating that he also continued to be as strong as ace, add onto that speculating even further what fruit or whatever he aquired that allowed him to be even with ace. oh and lets not forget ace's haki, which sabo has shown nothing of
you guys are being dumb, saying that sabo would become like shanks and cover the distance to equal ace with logia. Where ar eyou basing this from. Ace had no fruit for at least 17 years and when 10 was slightly better than sabo. Ace had no fruit for 17 years again. If based on young and going up sabo and ace would be roughly equal now if neither had a fruit. there is nothing to show anythign other than that. but ace has a fruit and a logia, thus he trumps sabo.
throwing on some random abilities, fruits or haki to sabo is about as dumb as you can get.
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I can't tell if Sammsy is a brick wall or a broken record.
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@UsoppSpell:
Who's bashing Greg? I said he was being a dick, and he is. He even admitted it?Well, he made a logical error, which you do point out correctly I believe, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon, as if that discredited his prior points. (Not you)
Is this aimed at me? You say 'everyone', but you address the things I mentioned in my post. Anyway, it's a weak argument for both sides, no doubt, and I am not sure why it was even brought up, but I was just using the first two arguments that came to mind that seemed over the top in presentation while still having the same flaws he was calling 2010 noobs out for.
Hold on there. I am not "aiming" or taking jabs or potshots at anyone. It´s not like I insulted you or belittled you somehow. I just talked about the points that were the most interesting to me, one of two which happenned to be yours. That being said, yes that argument was weaksauce. Also I do talk about the Sabo Ace thing, something that is not exclusively yours.
Dismissing the presentation, the arguments I've seen in this thread aren't all that strong. I'm all for discussing the primary ones, and Greg or someone else is welcome to pick apart my post on the page prior. Nobody has done so yet, so I am simply discussing what has been brought up. In this case, the letter.
This is what I've been saying all along. The arguments for this alive or dead have been based on very little information and a lot of what people would prefer, morphing it into some twisted logical opinion that isn´t really logic. This is why I have stayed primarily out of this debate.
Where to start. Smoker has Ambition? The Admirals are still just speculation. Ace has used it, but we never saw him control it. Croc doesn't. Blackbeard is also unknown. Enel used Mantra, that's it. Hey, look at that, I listed all of them and only one of them was actually seen using a speculated form of Ambition. Willpower and control are useless arguments, as every single DF user we have seen has had control over their fruit. Croc's comment in Alabasta was about being creative with the power so you can maximize on its functionality, rather than settling for the basic set of obvious uses. He says this right before he makes quicksand. You know what though, this is all irrelivant because it has no context. The context is…
Hang on. If you´re gonna quote me, then quote me completely. Everything I write tends to have a reason.
You caught me with Smoker there, but that was me being distracted. But I would just have added him to the Croc list, so my argument remains intact. I´ll one up you though and ask you how do you know that Smoker doesn´t have some form of it too? He knows about it, so wouldn´t he at some point attempt to learn it? Additionally, being able to hurt Superman doesn´t mean it´s not a great idea to bring some cryptonite along. Enter his stick thingy. It just makes capturing and policing DF users easier.
You adress Blackbeard. Blackbeard does not have Logia defense so it doesn´t apply, the reason I did not mention him. No points lost there, regardless of whether he uses haki or not.
Mantra is Haki.
We haven´t seen Ace consciously using it, but we know he has it. Also I never said that Haki was the sole reason for a good Logia defense. I also factored in experience and willpower. Creativity, as you say, could easily be attributed to experience and adaptation, but is a valid observation so I´ll take it.
Speculation on whether admirals have ambition? I hardly think so. Standing in the same defensive pose as Sentoumaru, and blocking an attack by using no visible form or manifestation of their own powers clearly means that they are using some invisible force other than their DFs. The only such force we know is haki. Thus, unless you want to grasp at straws, the Admirals have some defensive haki, like the one Sentoumaru displayed against Luffy. We could also say that it is very strong, as it can stop a Quake attack, but that´s taking it a little too far.
On the Croc bit, you cannot discredit my reasoning because I excluded him from the Haki guys and said that it was experience and control. So nothing new here.
If Sabo and Ace are on a similar level, with Ace taking the upper hand slightly, Ace would become a fair amount 'stronger' by the simply eating his Mera Mera Fruit. For starters, he gains intangibility and extremely powerful heat based attacks, both long and short range. These are the most fundamental abilities gained. This is yet another stupid argument that doesn't matter at all though and was only brought back up because Greg was being a dick and said that eating a logia means "fuck-all". While I understand the point he was making, the context was Ace and Sabo as near equals, then Ace eating his Mera Mera Fruit. He'd still need those seastone rollerblades though.
Gotta love those rollerblades.
But seriously, I am completely against this stand. You can say that at the point in time where Ace ate the fruit, and provided that at that point in time Sabo was of similar strength, that yeah he would, at that precise point in time be stronger. But he´s had it for years. And while Ace developed his fruit powers, Sabo has, of course also assuming that he does not have a DF of his own, had a chance to develop his own strength in other ways.
In the current timeline, if Sabo doesn´t have a DF at all, do you really have that much trouble putting him in the same league as Jimbei? Because that is Ace´s league. He is clearly outclassed by the top dogs.
Sure Ace gains destructive capabilities, but haki allows for things outside of the realm of the physical, like blocking a magma fist with a sword, or cutting light, or blocking a megaton force with your mind. Thus, is it truly impossible to see that a guy who has control of haki, even if he does not possess the haoshoku, or has it on the same level as these monsters (Shanks, Admirals, Sentoumaru, Rayleigh), to spar evenly with Jimbei or Ace?? I think it´s pretty easy, though you may think differently.
What I can say is that Ace has not displayed any remarkable physical techniques on par with those of the physical technique users, nor could he fall back to his haki, if he ever managed to apply it practically, when he's DF was shut down by Akainu and by Blackbeard. So in a haphazard manner it can be said that his repertoire of tricks was pretty much his DF and not a lot more. If he had more, he´d have at least tried it before running or getting stomped on.
I don´t know about you, but I'm on the side that thinks that Ace´s DF was his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. It is even said by Blackbeard, who say what you will about his panting, ripped Ace a new one easily with just a few Judo Chops before they´re "mine is bigger than yours" contest.
Sabo would not have such complications if he's learned haki and became an admittedly less powerful but less vulnerable fighter. And anyone with some mastery of haki and that level of strength should be able to harm and give pause to a Logia.
END DIRECT ANSWER
However I will elaborate on a point that you discredit, which I believe is worth mentioning.
We know that Haki allows people to bypass Logia defenses. However I believe that Haki can also make a Logia defense stronger. And that Haki is required to annul that effect on the side of the attacker.
There must be a reason why BlackBeard desired the Darkness fruit so much. Haki may not always be enough to bypass a Logia defense. Hell, we´ve seen it happen. Two seasoned warriors and known haki users could not harm Akainu. That gash on his jugular should have killed him if it was not in effect. I believe that that example was used to foreshadow this. In fact, what else could it be? Why would two haki users elect not to strike with Haki to harm a Logia. Thus, if Akainu was hit by Haki, but not harmed, he obviously can avoid damage from this technique somehow, even though he does mention it´s "troublesome".
However, he could not avoid it from WhiteBeard, who struck in conjuction with his DF and Haki. Again you may say this is speculation, but I postulate: "If he can do it and in fact did it previously with Aokiji, why wouldn´t he do it to Akainu?" It´s grasping at straws to think that he didn´t, or that he can´t use haki and DF powers simultaneously, and can only use it with his bisento. None of those is really a good counterargument, nor do I see any better.
So, does the Haki of the attacker need to be stronger than the Haki of the defender in order to bypass the defense? I think it´s a valid question, and I would prematurily hypothesize that in some form or another, in the same way that I would expect that Luffy's haki punch will have to be stronger than Sentoumaru´s haki block, an attacker must strike with more ambition than the one the defender is using to block or phaze.
UsoppSpell!
On the eve of spoilerificaiton, you will wait until you remember it's break week.
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thats my whole argument. He needs ot have something to even the field, or else ace trumps him due to logia
they were equal when neither had a fruit, why would it be different when they grew up? thus since ace has a fruit, adn a logia at that, sabo needs something huge too, thinking that somehow he just became insane physically with no fruit is just stupid when it is shown they are the same without fruits.
and thus begins beyond speculating that sabo is alive, further speculating that he also continued to be as strong as ace, add onto that speculating even further what fruit or whatever he aquired that allowed him to be even with ace. oh and lets not forget ace's haki, which sabo has shown nothing of
you guys are being dumb, saying that sabo would become like shanks and cover the distance to equal ace with logia. Where ar eyou basing this from. Ace had no fruit for at least 17 years and when 10 was slightly better than sabo. Ace had no fruit for 17 years again. If based on young and going up sabo and ace would be roughly equal now if neither had a fruit. there is nothing to show anythign other than that. but ace has a fruit and a logia, thus he trumps sabo.
throwing on some random abilities, fruits or haki to sabo is about as dumb as you can get.
I seem to remember Shanks saying that Luffy as a little kid was extremely similar to himself at that age.
If Sabo has enough strength to unerringly defeat Luffy as a kid, then who is to say that he couldn't grow to be stronger than Shanks as an adult? There is no doubt that Luffy will have the same strength as (if not more than) Shanks as an adult, so it is quite possible that Sabo would grow to Shanks strength or more by present time, if he is still alive.
Just my two cents. -
thats my whole argument. He needs ot have something to even the field, or else ace trumps him due to logia
they were equal when neither had a fruit, why would it be different when they grew up? thus since ace has a fruit, adn a logia at that, sabo needs something huge too, thinking that somehow he just became insane physically with no fruit is just stupid when it is shown they are the same without fruits.
and thus begins beyond speculating that sabo is alive, further speculating that he also continued to be as strong as ace, add onto that speculating even further what fruit or whatever he aquired that allowed him to be even with ace. oh and lets not forget ace's haki, which sabo has shown nothing of
you guys are being dumb, saying that sabo would become like shanks and cover the distance to equal ace with logia. Where ar eyou basing this from. Ace had no fruit for at least 17 years and when 10 was slightly better than sabo. Ace had no fruit for 17 years again. If based on young and going up sabo and ace would be roughly equal now if neither had a fruit. there is nothing to show anythign other than that. but ace has a fruit and a logia, thus he trumps sabo.
throwing on some random abilities, fruits or haki to sabo is about as dumb as you can get.
LOL!!!
WOW. Just wow.
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Ace is dead so Sabo doesn't need anything to trump him as long as he's alive. It's already a given he'll have his own special abilities.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Ace is dead so Sabo doesn't need anything to trump him as long as he's alive. It's already a given hell have his own special abilities.
I love how this thread shifted from "Sabo is Alive vs Dead" to "Sabo is Alive but how strong will he be?"
Haha gotta love it.
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I love how this thread shifted from "Sabo is Alive vs Dead" to "Sabo is Alive but how strong will he be?"
Haha gotta love it.
This reminds me of the Schichibukai thread. I remember joyfully becoming a retard to argue power levels. It was intoxicating.
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Last time I'm adressing the brick wall on this.
Not a single person has said that Sabo would be stronger than Logia Ace.
Everyone else understands that the point being made is that Sabo would be as strong as non-logia Ace, and stronger than Luffy. Still a monster, by any means.COMPLETELY SEPERATE FROM THAT… considering that in 10 years Ace got a power up from a DF, its within possibility that Sabo also got a power up via any of dozens of other means, IN ADDITION TO HIS PHYSICAL STRENGTH AND COMBAT ABILITY.
The entire point isn't "Sabo could beat Logia Ace." The point is, no matter what the outside influence, Sabo, if he lived, would currently be really strong.
No matter what, he'd be a force to recon with, capable of soloing fodder armies and splitting buildings apart, same as Luffy, Zoro or Sanji.
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@robbybedfart
Sorry for the off-topic, but what Lupin the Third movie is that sig from? Thanks in advance.
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@Spell: I figure this should conclude most of our discussion… [hide]@UsoppSpell:
Hold on there. I am not "aiming" or taking jabs or potshots at anyone.
I was just making sure the comment was directed at me. The comment was about someone using one mistake to discredit the argument as a whole, which, if aimed at me, isn't the case as I pointed out. No need to get defensive.
Hang on. If you´re gonna quote me, then quote me completely. Everything I write tends to have a reason.
We both knew what you were talking about, so I didn't think it was necessary to include all the excess text. I trim the quotes so the post isn't so huge. If you need it in writing, I acknowledge that you discounted Croc from your "all" statement.
I'll one up you though and ask you how do you know that Smoker doesn't have some form of it too? He knows about it, so wouldn't he at some point attempt to learn it?
Smoker was surprised that Hancock could hit him, not confident that he knew how she was hitting him. Rumors aren't considered fact, most of the time. In addition to this, and touching on Ace as well, is the fight at Arabasta. Of course, that brings to question whether or not Oda really had the whole concept worked out back then or not. Who knows. Either way, as of now they are far from confirmed users, leaning strongly towards non-users.
Blackbeard does not have Logia defense so it doesn't apply, the reason I did not mention him.
Also I never said that Haki was the sole reason for a good Logia defense.
A logia is still a logia. The built-in defense is balanced by the other superior powers he gains. Don't forget the origin of the argument, that gaining a logia is basically an instant upgrade. A mark is still a mark, and "all" so far still only covers one person out of six, and even that one person is just likely speculation. I'm just pointing out the error in your argument, not trying to unhinge it with this single point.
Mantra is Haki.
I pretty much pioneered the theory, so you don't need to remind me that it is still just very likely speculation until confirmed. Not that it is an impressive theory or anything.
We haven't seen Ace consciously using it, but we know he has it.
Using the same logic, so does Luffy and Coby, so I don't see how this line of argumentation at all helps your point.
Speculation on whether admirals have ambition? I hardly think so. Standing in the same defensive pose as Sentoumaru, and blocking an attack by using no visible form or manifestation of their own powers clearly means that they are using some invisible force other than their DFs. The only such force we know is haki.
This is called speculation. I never said it was baseless, I just noted that it could be something else. It's bad practice to treat speculation as fact and then base your argument around it.
You can say that at the point in time where Ace ate the fruit, and provided that at that point in time Sabo was of similar strength, that yeah he would, at that precise point in time be stronger.
Ok. That was the only point. You concede that eating a logia (in this case, for Ace) instantly made him notably stronger. Everything else involves a hefty amount of suggestive fan fiction that doesn't matter at all.
What I can say is that Ace has not displayed any remarkable physical techniques on par with those of the physical technique users. So in a haphazard manner it can be said that his repertoire of tricks was pretty much his DF and not a lot more.
What I can say is that the manga disagrees with you. Comments through characters from Oda trumps artistic evidence in my book: "I had always thought the Power Users were a brittle lot, over-relying on their powers and helpless without them. But I see that when it comes to Whitebeard's own battle commander…The man excels in basic battle ability as well...!!!" (Ch. 441)
However I will elaborate on a point that you discredit, which I believe is worth mentioning. We know that Haki allows people to bypass Logia defenses. However I believe that Haki can also make a Logia defense stronger. And that Haki is required to annul that effect on the side of the attacker.
Ignoring the theory, what am I discrediting? Ambition has little to do with the primary power boost you gain from a logia, and half of the listed logia users at best are likely Ambition users. Of them, only two (Akainu and Enel) actually made effective use of it while all of the logia users are considered high level fighters on near Devil Fruit power alone. No doubt they are all strong in their own rite, but their fruit power gives them a level of safety and power with absolutely no effort involved. If you agree, case dismissed. As I said, stupid argument with little purpose, but there you have it.[/hide]
@robbybedfart:
Everyone else understands that the point being made is that Sabo would be as strong as non-logia Ace, and stronger than Luffy. Still a monster, by any means.
[hide]@Greg:
Logia, as any fruit, means fuck-all if you don't have a strong will and learn how to adapt it. You don't eat a Logia and become incredible.
I wasn't saying he was weak, just saying we can't say he would be as Greg said Jozu strength. Ace got a logia, whereas we can't expect Sabo to get one. A Logia no matter the type gives said person a huge advantage in a fight.
I'm not saying Sabo wouldn't have been as strong as Ace was BEFORE he got the Logia.
That's my whole argument. He needs to have something to even the field, or else Ace trumps him due to logia.
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While I hate to continue defending Sammsy's arguments for him, that wasn't the original point that started the argument, and Sammsy agreed with that a long time ago.
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@robbybedfart:
Everyone else understands that the point being made is that Sabo could be as strong as non-logia Ace, and stronger than Luffy.
COMPLETELY SEPERATE FROM THAT… considering that in 10 years Ace got a power up from a DF, its within possibility that Sabo also got a power up via any of dozens of other means, IN ADDITION TO HIS POSSIBLE PHYSICAL STRENGTH AND COMBAT ABILITY.
Fixed.
The point is, no matter what the outside influence, Sabo, if he lived, would currently be really strong.
As much as I want to agree with you Rob, there is no clear evidence that Sabo(in present time) IS stronger, as strong, or even strong period…BUT it is within the realm of his potential to be.
No matter what, it is of great possibility he'd be a force to recon with, capable of soloing fodder armies and splitting buildings apart, same as Luffy, Zoro or Sanji.
Fixed again.
FYI, I hope you are completely right and more. But at this point in time it's just not right to expect…because Oda loves to skullfuck the expected...and for all we know...he can easily make us all look like fools.
And I pitty the fool.
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Sometimes chapters discussions on ap.net lead me to believe that comprehending a children comic book is harder than understnading particle physics.
Than I remember we discuss particle models of Kizaru's light blades on op.ru
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Congratulation to Sammsy for making a chapter thread into a power level thread… Welcome at NF.
Really we are talking about someone who we don't know if he is even alive or what he have done for the last 10 years... But yeah it is still like in the good ol time and nothing COULD have changed.
Ace always >>> Ace cuz he beat him once more as kid
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Congrats everybody else on feeding the troll
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Congrats everybody else on feeding the troll
http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/11/CLAPPING-GIF.gifTrue that as well^^
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While I hate to continue defending Sammsy's arguments for him, that wasn't the original point that started the argument, and Sammsy agreed with that a long time ago.
Which utterly confuses me. Because if the point was gotten and agreed with, what was with the last multitude of pages?
Is this a case of one aspect of a phrasing and assumption being taken the wrong way and creating headaches all around because it wasn't said in a single simple sentance like that?
Tell me its that.
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Sometimes chapters discussions on ap.net lead me to believe that comprehending a children comic book is harder than understnading particle physics.
We've spent too many years at school… We have to make good use of that knowledge.
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http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3841194/images/1235868745499.gif
Congratulation to Sammsy for making a chapter thread into a power level thread… Welcome at NF.
Really we are talking about someone who we don't know if he is even alive or what he have done for the last 10 years... But yeah it is still like in the good ol time and nothing COULD have changed.
Ace always >>> Ace cuz he beat him once more as kid
Ace always beats Ace, makes sense.
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Ace always beats Ace, makes sense.
Everyone beats Ace. Oda didn't give him the plot armor.
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And what exactly makes you think I haven't read this and everything else about One Piece in your website?
I think that probably stems from where I made an awesome fellatio-deserving point and you responded with. "Wuts da point?"
Really I have to agree with brennen, you are just being a dick…
Yes that's correct. And this matters.
And I would include "don't let your brothers morn your death if you aren't dead" as something to make any boy decide he needs to send a letter, or use any other way possible to tell his brothers that he is alive.
Whoops! Sabo doesn't know they think he's dead!
Game Over.
So go ahead SPECULATE all you want about sabo's strength if he were alive, but that is all it is, your own guess on how strong you think he could or might be. There is no backing to your guess.
This is hilarious.
And I'm glad I ruined your day, however pathetic that is that a post can do that
Don't worry. You just totally made up for it with that blurb.
Essentially everyone posting here, whether they agree that Sabo is alive or not, even those like Sage to whom I no longer respond to, have spent the past few pages explaining, detailing and pleading with you to understand exactly why there is evidence for setting up Sabo as a character who will be quite powerful which is not based on opinion, simply on common threads and trends throughout not only boy's comics, but skillful story-telling in general.
All of which you have ignored.
You may have ruined yesterday, but there will be a smile on my face for a week from now.
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@robbybedfart:
Is this a case of one aspect of a phrasing and assumption being taken the wrong way and creating headaches all around because it wasn't said in a single simple sentence like that?
It was very much that, lol.
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And brennen, I have to respectfully disagree that he considered the news of the explosion would reach them since it was in an area of town not easily viewable from the mountains, nor did they have any particular reason/motivation to be searching for him.
His concern for them in the letter stems from two points.
1. They frequented the area. No question there.
2. It creates the irony of someone who is 'dead' worrying about the concern of others. That was a particularly nasty assault on the heart strings from Oda.
However, I did like your reasoning there.
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Wow. Props to the "Sabo is Alive" camp. They're making me question my stance on the Sabo issue. I still think Sabo's dead and I'll stick with it until proven otherwise (even if it means I sink with it), but you guys are good. And if he is alive, I'll admit I was wrong, even if I have to change my avatar and/or sig for a month or whatever saying I was wrong.
Never mind. After a chat with brennen, I am once again firmly in the "Sabo is dead" camp.
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Would you care to join the 'Sabo's Alive' 200 USD bet I have going?
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And brennen, I have to respectfully disagree that he considered the news of the explosion would reach them since it was in an area of town not easily viewable from the mountains, nor did they have any particular reason/motivation to be searching for him.
That's cool, but it's not just that. This event (World Noble) was so big it even caught the attention of Dadan, who Oda made a point to show doesn't follow the news, and all those people we see in the harbor are commoners. Commoners gossip. Even if Sabo assumed Ace and Luffy (or anyone he knew) weren't there, common sense dictates that a commoner ship raising a pirate flag in front of a World Noble/World Government's ship during this countries most historic moment and then getting blown to smithereens in front of all said people–- catches breath-- that's big news, and big news travels. Sabo's not stupid, and neither is Oda. All I am saying is that in the event Sabo is alive and well, and this isn't touched on, I will be mildly disappointed and then get over it. Poor execution and planning, very minor discrepancy, let's move on kind of thing.
Edit: Oh, and I don't know if we ever got a clear view, but Ace's "spot" overlooks the ocean, so it must be within view of the city to a degree. Throw that into consideration, for what it's worth.
@NANLIT:Never mind. After a chat with brennen, I am once again firmly in the "Sabo is dead" camp.
Haha, that wasn't my intention, I was just asking a few questions.
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Never mind. After a chat with brennen, I am once again firmly in the "Sabo is dead" camp.
That's cause Brennen is ignoring theme and context in favor of exactly whats on panel, and choosing specific previous examples to back his examples.
I'm doing the exact opposite thing, but biasing my point the exact same way and picking only the examples and aspects that support my idea.
You pretty much have to do one or the other to stand solidly on the alive/dead side, as opposed to being undecided.
For me it boils down to a gut feeling after nearly 600 chapters of material that Oda handles death scenes one way, and tease of death scenes another. We're both in the wrong, but we're both in the right too, since at this point, all Oda has shown is Sabo's charred hat, and provided some witnesses from far away.
The intent of the chapter was to convince the readers that Sabo is dead, and so far nothing but author track record even allows for speculation otherwise. For the time being, the "Sabo is dead" camp is completely right, are far as provable evidence is concerned, and that's what Oda wants you to believe. Those saying he's alive are going on pure gut. And previous examples of death fakeout, which to be fair, all happened in the present, and not in the flashbacks.
(But even Usopp and Perona had fallen hat symbolism. And that wasn't even teased out for a page after that.)
Would you care to join the 'Sabo's Alive' 200 USD bet I have going?
I would, but if Sabo doesn't show up in the next two chapters he probably won't for 8 or 10 years, so its probably moot anyway. Its something we wouldn't be able to collect on until the last chapter of the series. (Similarly, Tom, if he's alive, will stay "dead" until the very end as well, since to be otherwise would just detract from Franky's path.)
Bon Kurei is pretty likely to make his token "I am alive" cameo as soon as the arc officially wraps though, and we get the "where are they now" chapters that come about every 200 or so chapters.
Or we get an ID coverstory with Hannybal.
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Sabo's not stupid, and neither is Oda.
But I do think he's realistic and logical.
And to me, personally, it doesn't seem either of those would apply to Sabo considering they would see the boat or think that a small boat being attacked in light of the Tenryubito would become news.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I hope, if he has his memories, there aren't some tears shed for not contacting them at all. By letter? Mmmm, I think Oda covered that pretty clearly especially with what we know about his opinion on it. But there are other ways and that can't have been easy on him.
If he has his reasons, I'm sure they're good. At this point I like being a revolutionary best since their level of secrecy extends to the point where a father can't let his son know he has….uh....a...father...
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@robbybedfart:
Though if Sabo doesn't show up in the next two chapters he probably won't for 8 or 10 years, so its probably moot discussion anyway.
Ok, now that so issue of Sabo's possible current strength has presumedly been once and for all put to bed, I want to go on record and say the probability that he would be stronger than Luffy in the current time frame of the story is a strong reason why his eventual re-appearance will be delayed until the time that Luffy so long anticipated when he would have been able to beat Ace, were he still alive.
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@Greg: No thank you.
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@robbybedfart:
That's cause Robby is ignoring set precedents and parallels in favor of a gut feeling, and choosing no specific previous examples to back his opinion.
I'm not sure what themes and context I'm ignoring, but I'm pretty sure I left you with nothing but your "gut feeling" and "I'm wrong until proven right" arguments last time.
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Arguing about this is silly and pointless.
Since Sabo's present status can only be summarized by vague speculation based on very little material, and his place in the plot can be spun in any direction Oda desires to.
Since none of us are Oda, we can only make speculations. Which is perfectly fine, but there's no basis for a constructive argument.
It's about as silly as arguing if The Flying Spaghetti Monster's meat sauce is Ragu or Prego.It's Prego btw.
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I like being a revolutionary best since their level of secrecy extends to the point where a father can't let his son know he has….uh....a...father...
Contrary to my line of argumentation, I actually like the idea that he becomes a slave the most. I think it would work well with the flashback and the Fishman Island / Slave-themed arc that most of us expect is around the corner. I have a post earlier in this thread and the spoiler forum about it, but I'll leave it at that for now.
Arguing about this is silly and pointless.
I don't think anyone here denies that. I'd say a majority of what is discussed on a weekly basis falls under the same category though.
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I don't think anyone here denies that. I'd say a majority of what is discussed on a weekly basis falls under the same category though.
Heh, it's because people need to do something while waiting for next chapter. Things get specially ugly during breaks…
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I'm not sure what themes and context I'm ignoring, but I'm pretty sure I left you with nothing but your "gut feeling" and "I'm wrong until proven right" arguments last time.
The overall theme in One Piece that dreams are more important than life itself.
[hide]That in Odaverse, any character with a dream lives, no matter what kind of poison or bomb or hook through the chest or biting off their own tongue injures their body.
And that any character that dies, generally does with some level of satisfaction that they accomplished something, an epic speech, and having passed their goals onto the next generation.
Any character that doesn't believe in dreams, has no hope, or has passed their dream forward, can die.
Shanks-Gave up his arm for the next generation. Not that its stopped him from being awesome.
Kuina- believed she had no future, got a promise from Zoro that one of them would be great, died. (undefeated)
Bellemere- preferred her kids to have a future. Got a moment of badassery,a speech about her kids, died.
Usopp's mother- created his lying pattern, but its mostly his alive father inspiring him.
Zeff-Sanji carries the dream of finding all blue. Lost his leg in sacrifice of his own dream, but preserves Sanji's.
Hiriluk- completed his life's work, epic speech, smile, passed dreams onto Chopper.
Skypiea- Noland died a liar, but the desire to prove Skypeia was real passed down for generations, both to his descendants, and the citizens of the city who awaited his return.
Tom- Fought for the kids, had an epic speech about being proud of the boats you build, "taken away".
Saul- Threw around battleships to try and protect people, had impassioned speech with Aokiji. Taught Robin to smile, laugh, and find cherished friends.
Oliva and Clover- Died throwing books into a lake, and preserving the future.
Brook's crew- Died smiling, laughing and playing a final song. For Laboon, an equal story about determination and dreams.
Shushu- Owner died, but kept protecting the store long after.
Ace- Saved Luffys life and found he was loved, got a speech, died smiling.
Gol Roger- Died according to plan, smiling, and spreading the word of One Piece.
Whitebeard- Died in faith that Luffy would get away, a year of badassery, and a speech spreading the word of One Piece.And thats of course not going into the present day survivals of the impossible like Pell, tounge pirate, franky family, all of skypiea, or the arc bosses who usually turn around and have better lives after their first, more corrupt dreams, are shattered.
Did they all accomplish every last thing they wanted in life? No. But their main hopes, their main ambitions almost always. ANd a moment of action, and a speech defining their lives almost always accompany them. A moment that makes their death worthwhile
Sabo didn't get a speech, a moment of badassery, or contentment. So his death just doesn't sit right with me. It was too cheap, too easy. Combined with the lack of a visible body? That the info was passed second hand?
Maybe that lac of a moment and cheapness was intended to show the scale of the WG against a kid, but it goes so staunchly against all that came before, it feels wrong if thats all their is to his story.
If this was Naruto and those exact same events were presented, I'd go "Yeah, he's dead". But in OP, dreams an aspirations hold so, so much weight.
Its my interpretaion of the entire series' theme, and you don't agree with it, and neither of us will change the way the other feels about it.[/hide]
It's about as silly as arguing if The Flying Spaghetti Monster's meat sauce is Ragu or Prego.
It's Prego btw.
He told me is was Ragu.
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Just end the flashback already..I want to see the story progress in the present!
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The discussion about Sabos death is stupid, and it is stupider for those claiming he is 100% dead or alive.
We dont know anything about the events other than the boat wreck and that Dogura saw it. But the thing is we dont know anything about that Dogura character, he could be changing the truth a little and on a other note we dont even know what he said to ace and them. So we couldnt even be claiming he doesnt know what happened to him. We truly know nothing other than that death scene was made very ambiguously. I am ready to talk about his fate after the flashback has ended at least.
If Sabo would have lived. He would have been arrested, he stole a boat, he had a pirate flag and he interrupted the celestial dragons.And I truly believe that Sabos dad wouldn't or couldn't save him out of that issue. And on an other note, would Dogura tell ace and Luffy if Sabo was arrested. That would have been rather stupid because Ace would try to save him and Dogura is probably not one of the stupid type.
But in the end I have no idea only that I truly believe that Dogura changed the truth a little.
It somehow came out of the blue when Ace claimed that Dogura was lying.
I am not claiming it happened that way but 1. we dont know what Dogura saw exactly and 2. we dont know what he said to Ace and Luffy. -
@robbybedfart:
Sabo didn't get a speech, a moment of badassery, or contentment. So his death just doesn't sit right with me.
Allow me to question you: what would you expect of his death? That he would grab a pipe, jump into the Tenryuubito's ship, beat the entire crew and then be taken out by a friggin' admiral after delivering a powerful speech about freedom that would move the entire kingdom of Goa?
Sabo was not some badass ex-marine, legendary shipwright or famous thief; he was a kid who had never sailed throught the wider world. He was still developing his dream. Sabo knew so little of the world that he was stupid enough to raise a pirate flag right in front of a World Government ship.
His life touched both Dragon and Luffy, so if he's indeed dead his dream is kept alive through them. Like Hiruluk's dream was carried on by Kureha, or Calgara's dream was kept alive by Wiper.
That's my take on it, at least until the manga expands on these events.
Just end the flashback already..I want to see the story progress in the present!
I'm pretty sure we will back to the present by the end of next chapter.
The discussion about Sabos death is stupid, and it is stupider for those claiming he is 100% dead or alive.
Agreed. It could go either way, but for now I'm leaning towards the "dead" camp.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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You know, it's entirely possible Dogura, knowing how determined Ace and Lufy both were, and how attached to Sabo they both were, could have lied to them about what he saw IF he saw Sabo picked up and taken into slavery, in some half assed attempt to 'protect" them. They WOULD have tried to go to save him, and Dogura would have known that. Given everyone in OP world's ideas about the Celestial Dragons and their power, he may have felt it was the kinder thing.
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THe discussion about Sabos death is stupid, and it is stupider for those claiming he is 100% dead or alive.
We dont know anything about the events other than the boat wreck and that Dogura saw it. But the thing is we dont know anything about that Dogura character, he could be changing the truth a little and on a other note we dont even know what he said to ace and them. So we couldnt even be claiming he doesnt know what happened to him. We truly know nothing other than that death scene was made very ambiguously. I am ready to talk about his fate after the flashback has ended at least.
If Aabo would have lived. He would have been arrested, he stole a boat, he had a pirate flag and he interrupted the celestial dragons.
And I truly believe that Sabos dad wouldn't or couldn't save him out of that issue. And on an other note, would dogura tell ace and luffy if sabo was arrested, that would have been rather stupid because ace would try to save him and dogura is probably not one of the stupid type.
But in the end I have no idea only that I truly believe that Dogura changed the truth a little.
It somehow came out of the blue when Ace claimed that Dogura was lying.
I am not claiming it happened that way but 1. we dont know what Dogura saw exactly and 2. we dont know what he said to Ace and Luffy.I understand what you're saying, but why is Ace accusing Dogura of lying out of the blue? It's denial, it's only natural for Ace to accuse the bearer of the bad news of Sabo's death is lying at first.
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I understand what you're saying, but why is Ace accusing Dogura of lying out of the blue? It's denial, it's only natural for Ace to accuse the bearer of the bad news of Sabo's death is lying at first.
Yep, denial: the first stage of grieving.
Then comes rage, bargaining, depression and finally acceptance.
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For me, anything posted since around page 40ish has entirely been attributed to defining 'potential'.
As to whether Sabo is alive or not, I will not participate in any discussion to that end because he is alive. It's not my choice. It's Oda's. And despite him and his editors ignoring every last goddamn thing I've sent them over the past 9 years, I just 'know' certain things about the man and how he handles his story.
And there are rarely times when I say, "This is how shit is.", and when I do, I'm usually either joking, jesting, tom-foolering or, as in the case with Tom, making an educated guess that fell flat on its face in the mud as a Rav-4 filled with college frat boys drove by laughing and shouting 80's-inspired derivations by twisting my last name.
But Sabo is alive.
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Allow me to question you: what would you expect of his death? That he would grab a pipe, jump into the Tenryuubito's ship, beat the entire crew and then be taken out by a friggin' admiral after delivering a powerful speech about freedom that would move the entire kingdom of Goa?
I don't know what I expect him to do. I know what I expect Oda to do.
If there was a body (in silhouette even) or funeral, or Luffy or Ace saw it with their own eyes, I wouldn't question it at all. If Sabo had crawled back onto land and written the letter then with his last ounce of strength. Some moment of defiance. Or, he lies there dying, and then appologizes for not being able to go further and breaking his promise, ala Merry.
Instead, there's a far away second hand witness, a smoke creating explosion, a fallen hat, (Which Luffy, Ace and Usopp have all had as symbolism before) no body, and THEN a letter written before hand, stating he still has a dream he intends to pursue.
That, combined with the lack of finality, seems wrong to me. It didn't feel like Oda was pulling on the heart strings with his full power and effort. A single extra line, an extra panel, could have easily punched the point home, and Oda's incredibly good about delivering that teary left hook when he wants to.
Any other series, I'd go along with him being dead. But here? Not feeling it. This feels just like the "Well, the Franky Family is all dead" moment from Enies Lobby. Plus, in story, he could serve as fill-in-Ace without cheaping Ace's death, the same as Tashigi and Mini Merry.
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@robbybedfart:
Plus, in story, he could serve as fill-in-Ace without cheaping Ace's death, the same as Tashigi and Mini Merry.
And I don't think Tashigi is a fill-in for Kuina, and neither is the Mini Merry a fill-in for Merry. Tashigi's role is very different from Kuina's; if she were Zoro's rival Zoro and always defeated him, I'd agree, but her role is very different.
Mini Merry was a tribute, and it had no more importance in the storyline than the Shark Submarine or Nami's waver. The characters were happy to see it and that's it.
But taking back Sabo so he can fill the same role as Ace? Why kill Ace in the first place then?
If Sabo's alive, his role in the story won't be "Ace 2.0".
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Uncircumsized > Circumsized
…
...What?
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@robbybedfart:
The overall theme in One Piece that dreams are more important than life itself.
Ah, but see, then I am not ignoring anything then (you never made a case for context). Three of my "specific previous examples" are in your summary. Kuina, Olvia, Clover, and Yorki, who was conveniently left out. Sabo fits their examples just fine, but I won't rehash our previous argument.
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Besides the letter, what also strikes me as important to note is how after all the times Ace told Luffy that men don't cry, he reads Sabo's letter and sobs his head off which to me was supposed to make the reader realize that yeah, this is for real. I guess neither of these things are good enough finality to some people, however. Meh I really don't feel like arguing this one again either, especially since I acknowledge the chance of Oda providing Sabo with a Houdini escape story and an excuse for why he remained silent all these years. But I still retain some hope that he won't go that route and a good part of me feels that he won't.
