That's sth I don't like about Jimbei joining:
He'd have this "baby-sitter"/"care-taker"-attitude in the crew.
Yet those SH-members who are way older than Luffy (Robin, Franky, Brook) absolutely don't have such an attitude. Jimbei on the other hand would have. But Luffy doesnt need a babysitter/caretaker for himself in his crew. Or he SHOULDN'T need one.
In the end I trust in Oda, he will make it awesome and epic, as ever.
Next Crewmate Discussion (Vol. 4)
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That's sth I don't like about Jimbei joining:
He'd have this "baby-sitter"/"care-taker"-attitude in the crew.
Yet those SH-members who are way older than Luffy (Robin, Franky, Brook) absolutely don't have such an attitude. Jimbei on the other hand would have. But Luffy doesnt need a babysitter/caretaker for himself in his crew. Or he SHOULDN'T need one.
In the end I trust in Oda, he will make it awesome and epic, as ever.I don't think that attitude would endure, however.
It's something I also think Hancock must overcome over time if she joins. She can't get all angry and jump into action everytime Luffy faces a strong adversary.
Whoever joins will need to trust Luffy's abilities and judgement as captain.
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I'm sure Oda will tone it down a bit, kind of like how Sanji can sometimes act serious around Robin and Nami..
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Even if Luffy could somehow create a permanent solution to Fishman Island, would that make Jinbei go with Luffy? It seems more probable for me that Jinbei would choose to stay in the island, maybe to create a new government or defensive force there. I know Jinbei is a wanted criminal now, but he could do it from the shadows, mafia-style, and with the support of the island's denizens.
This is actually what I think will probably happen. Probably wrote something like it a while back in this thread. Without the shadows part though, I don't think he'd do something like that, his Impel Down stupidity a case in point.
IMO, the best way for Jinbei to go with Luffy would be if the journey somehow favored Jinbei's quest to protect FIshman Island. Maybe turning Luffy into Pirate King could allow Luffy to declare the island his territory? I still find it a bit forced, but not impossible.
Yeah. As I've said, I don't really see either of them joining.
We'll probably see a bit more about what makes him tick in FI though, maybe a flashback of his youth.
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I'm sure Oda will tone it down a bit, kind of like how Sanji can sometimes act serious around Robin and Nami..
He won't since he doesn't need to. It's a part of their characters. It's a pretty good reason for why they couldn't join. I noticed it first with Jinbei but Hancock has it too but more geared to her obsession.
I mean is there gonna be a scene/chap where they realize Luffy is a responsible individual and should be treated as such? The crew pulls off their worrying for him with trust after a comedic outburst of "DON'T DO THAT!". All Hancock and Jinbei have seen is Luffy being crazy/courageous and FAIL, epically.
The times Sanji is "serious around females is usually before or after swanning after them and the other times are in serious moments like a fight is about to start or a serious discussion and even then he'd pull off his shtick in the background or in between.
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I can't really see either of those 2 joining the crew. Although I do find it more likely for Boa to join the crew than Jinbei. That said I think Margaret will probably be the next crew member. She would be perfect in that despite already being pretty capable she too can grow tremendously along with the rest of the crew.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
He won't since he doesn't need to. It's a part of their characters. It's a pretty good reason for why they couldn't join. I noticed it first with Jinbei but Hancock has it too but more geared to her obsession.
Characters evolve, dude.
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Characters evolve, dude.
Explain how that's character evolution for either one of them. I see it more as that's how they are, a character trait. Why is Jinbei always talking about dying for someone else? It's just the way he is.
2 adults with mom and dad qualities with an oedipus rex thing going on with the mom.
You'd have a better argument if you said Luffy would prove (unintentionally) that he doesn't need constant worrying about him, every favor/deed he's done puts you in his debt, doesn't need to be protected, etc.
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@AdmiralYonkouMt.Bandit:
Explain how that's character evolution for either one of them. I see it more as that's how they are, a character trait. Why is Jinbei always talking about dying for someone else? It's just the way he is.
2 adults with mom and dad qualities with an oedipus rex thing going on with the mom.
You'd have a better argument if you said Luffy would prove (unintentionally) that he doesn't need constant worrying about him, every favor/deed he's done puts you in his debt, doesn't need to be protected, etc.
Dude, in the first place, Jinbei saw with his own eyes that Luffy conquered "all six levels of Hell" in Impel Down. Hancock left Luffy alone in Impel Down and later said she knew he would make it to Marineford.
Just because they were protecting Luffy in Marineford, in the middle of the biggest conflict that ever happened since the dawn of the pirate age, doesn't mean they will both keep treating Luffy as a baby.
Your problem lies in the inability to imagine how the characters can evolve and how situations can change. None of the current Strawhats could have joined if their situation didn't change between their introduction and them joining the crew. Every single obstacle people use to say someone can't join or can't do something can be solved within the story, it's just a matter of thinking how likely each development is.
While I understand that the only "facts" are things that already happened in the story, we all can especulate on what may happen ahead, and some theories are more probable than others.
When you say that a character won't evolve, you are using personal bias as much as someone who says that he will evolve.
Jinbei may evolve. Hancock may evolve. But how likely is that? Considering that Amazon Lily and Fishman Island are both ahead in the story, it's pretty likely both will get character and story development. The only thing we can't really be certain is if that character development will allow either of them to join.
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So Jinbei most likely will stay back at FI cuz he wants to protect his island… But Boa should go with Luffy... Well that is logic.
One of them will stay there for sure... And I have to say I still think it is Boa... Dunno why, jsut a feeling. Luffy seems to have far more of a connection to Jinbei now as he has to Boa. But we have to see.
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So Jinbei most likely will stay back at FI cuz he wants to protect his island… But Boa should go with Luffy... Well that is logic.
One of them will stay there for sure... And I have to say I still think it is Boa... Dunno why, jsut a feeling. Luffy seems to have far more of a connection to Jinbei now as he has to Boa. But we have to see.
I know, I understand we have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that. But you can aknowledge my opinion and I can aknowledge yours. That brings better discussions.
But seriously, can you have some theory on why Jinbei would want to follow Luffy beyond FI? It's a serious question, because that's one of the major problems I have with him joining. A good theory could change my mind. I really try to be open to new ideas.
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Jinbei hasn't been able to protect Fishman Island before, so what makes people think he can protect it now? Especially now that he is a wanted criminal, it is going to be even more difficult for me in my opinion. So in terms of Jinbei, if he will leave or stay in Fishman Island. That I don't know. I like to think Luffy can somehow make it his terrority but then he's not really at that level yet.
As for Hancock, she has said before she is willing to give up everything (her status as a warlord and her kingdom) to be with Luffy. So I really don't see why its an issue of her having to stay in Amazon Lily. I believe Hancock is most likely to join atm, also Margaret (sp) but godddd I hope she doesn't join… :/
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Current Theory: Government will hunt Hancock and attack Amazon Lily. Ivankov will tell Sanji where Luffy is; the crew will use the marine ship to reach the kujas, and Hancock will join the crew!
Cannot agree here. This Sanji argument is again something I don't cope well with.
First off, the whole problem with this is the Calm Belt's location and the Straw Hat Crew's ship being on SA… If you don't understand what it means, without any guide, it ought to be impossible.
The island of women shouldn't be advertised around, they're isolated for a reason, you know...
So, we've got two unknowns that have no reason to even happen. Second, we've got a bunch of issues involving the Thousand Sunny's inability to even make the trip. The time gap to make it, and so on and so on.
Lastly, Sanji was pictured departing from Okama kingdom, was he not?
You picked a marine ship, however, it doesn't matter since the direction is a problem. You can't travel without directional objects. For instance, I bet that Oda will reveal that either Jinbei will use fish to guide Law or that Hancock has a stashed Logpose up her ass... If not, there's no way for characters to magically get around the GL without facts to support it.
SH crew have navigational devices to get to Rayleigh's location and Fishman island.
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I know, I understand we have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that. But you can aknowledge my opinion and I can aknowledge yours. That brings better discussions.
But seriously, can you have some theory on why Jinbei would want to follow Luffy beyond FI? It's a serious question, because that's one of the major problems I have with him joining. A good theory could change my mind. I really try to be open to new ideas.
Just something i thought…. but what about if after Whitebeards funeral, the WB crew get new motivation and decide to go out and take back whitebeards territories with force.
Then maybe something like them meeting up at fishman island the same time as Luffy and Jinbei are there dealing with things, then saying that they will still uphold whitebeards ideals and his protection of various island or something.
That way Jinbei doesn't have to worry. Also no doubt Luffy could say if anything ever happens to FI he will come right back and deal with it also. Now that it is known he is Dragons son his name may hold more power.
Therefore that along with various other reasons Jinbei decides to support Luffy and his dream of becoming PK
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Jinbei hasn't been able to protect Fishman Island before, so what makes people think he can protect it now? Especially now that he is a wanted criminal, it is going to be even more difficult for me in my opinion. So in terms of Jinbei, if he will leave or stay in Fishman Island. That I don't know. I like to think Luffy can somehow make it his terrority but then he's not really at that level yet.
As for Hancock, she has said before she is willing to give up everything (her status as a warlord and her kingdom) to be with Luffy. So I really don't see why its an issue of her having to stay in Amazon Lily. I believe Hancock is most likely to join atm, also Margaret (sp) but godddd I hope she doesn't join… :/
We must consider that Jinbei's not the type of guy that will just despair and abandon Fishman Island to its own luck just because he can't protect it alone, right? Just because he couldn't protect it in the past, it doesn't mean that circunstances can't change.
Just like circunstances may change that allow Hancock to leave her island without dooming it into becoming a flaming crater.
(And, I admit, just like circunstances may change that allow Jinbei to go with Luffy as well. My problem right now is not that he can't go with Luffy, but that so far he seems to lack some motivation to join Luffy's crew.)
But this is fact: Hancock's heart lies with Luffy. All her actions in the past saga have been directed towards Luffy. Jinbei's heart lies with his island. All his actions in the past saga have been directed towards protecting it (via Whitebeard).
The Strawhats have a clean record of cleaning messes in every island they visit. So, they may leave Amazon Lily in a situation that allows it to be more secure. They may defeat some forces that would allow the denizens of fishman island to better defend themselves in the future. Both situations are really probable.
But of right now, Hancock has some impulse towards remain with Luffy once her island is safe. I don't see the same impetus from Jinbei. If someone's willing make a theory about why he'd go with the Strawhats, I'm more than happy to discuss it.
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Current Theory: Government will hunt Hancock and attack Amazon Lily. Ivankov will tell Sanji where Luffy is; the crew will use the marine ship to reach the kujas, and Hancock will join the crew!
Cannot agree here. This Sanji argument is again something I don't cope well with.
First off, the whole problem with this is the Calm Belt's location and the Straw Hat Crew's ship being on SA… If you don't understand what it means, without any guide, it ought to be impossible.
The island of women shouldn't be advertised around, they're isolated for a reason, you know...
So, we've got two unknowns that have no reason to even happen. Second, we've got a bunch of issues involving the Thousand Sunny's inability to even make the trip. The time gap to make it, and so on and so on.
do you remember what you said when a lot of people said that Luffy is going to rest in AL?if is going to be an attack of Amazon Lily or not i see the Strawhat's going to SA with the marine ship that Ivankov is going to give to Sanji
Lastly, Sanji was pictured departing from Okama kingdom, was he not?
i think not,yes we have seen him runing along the beach but that doesn't means that he is leaving
SH crew have navigational devices to get to Rayleigh's location and Fishman island.
Law and all of the SN crews because Fishman Island is the only place where the Logpose points from all 7 magnetic fields.
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Fact: Hancock is a Shichibukai.
Fact: Amazon Lily is only protected from their infamy of the past by holding the treaty of the WG's Shichibukai title.
Fact: Marines/ WG can progress through the Calm Belt now.
Fact: Nyon, probably the most wisest person on that island, claims that only deaths will come when that title isn't honored, the Shichibukai title.What's this point to?
Hancock cannot join the Straw Hat Crew and throw away her title because there is no other condition to protect Amazon Lily in the manga.
Closing thoughts:
Gaimon could have left the animals to die to be a pirate and search for his love of gold… However, he didn't.
Vivi could have left the Sand Kingdom and gone off to being a pirate with her friends because she loved it… However, she didn't.
Iceberg could have quit being mayor and left it all behind to be a pirate and chase after Nico Robin all the time... However, he didn't.
Doctor Crocuus could have left Laboon there hitting his head and all to be a pirate and chase after Brook again... However, he didn't.I think you ought to understand the purpose from this little exercise concerning Boa Hancock's fate.
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The island of women shouldn't be advertised around, they're isolated for a reason, you know…
But still, people seem to know it exists. People like the prisoners of Level 6 in Impel Down, for instance.
So, we've got two unknowns that have no reason to even happen. Second, we've got a bunch of issues involving the Thousand Sunny's inability to even make the trip. The time gap to make it, and so on and so on.
Well, the time allows it. The crew was separated for a week already, so they may have cleaned up any business in their current locations. Hancock's return to AL will take around 1 or 2 weeks. If the crew reunites in Sabaody in one more week, they could reach Amazon Lily in another week of travel.
The only unknown time constraints is how long Iva's travel to Kamabakk will take, and if Sanji will still be there.
Lastly, Sanji was pictured departing from Okama kingdom, was he not?
Not that I have seen. We know he was forced into becoming okama or was disguised as one in order to evade persecutors, but we have not seen him escape the island itself.
You picked a marine ship, however, it doesn't matter since the direction is a problem. You can't travel without directional objects. For instance, I bet that Oda will reveal that either Jinbei will use fish to guide Law or that Hancock has a stashed Logpose up her ass… If not, there's no way for characters to magically get around the GL without facts to support it.
That's a pretty good con against my theory, I admit, but Buggy's crew was able to buy an Eternal Pose to Impel Down. Maybe, just maybe, one can afford something similar to point Amazon Lily?
Just something i thought…. but what about if after Whitebeards funeral, the WB crew get new motivation and decide to go out and take back whitebeards territories with force.
Then maybe something like them meeting up at fishman island the same time as Luffy and Jinbei are there dealing with things, then saying that they will still uphold whitebeards ideals and his protection of various island or something.
That way Jinbei doesn't have to worry. Also no doubt Luffy could say if anything ever happens to FI he will come right back and deal with it also.
Therefore that along with various other reasons Jinbei decides to support Luffy and his dream of becoming PK
That's a possible way for them to clean the mess in Fishman Island, but at least so far every crewmember joined the crew because he had some big objective/dream that joining the crew would allow it to happen. I don't know if "support Luffy" is a big enough reason, though I guess it may vary with personal opinion.
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do you remember what you said when a lot of people said that Luffy is going to rest in AL?if is going to be an attack of Amazon Lily or not i see the Strawhat's going to SA with the marine ship that Ivankov is going to give to Sanji
i think not,yes we have seen him runing along the beach but that doesn't means that he is leaving
Law and all of the SN crews because Fishman Island is the only place where the Logpose points from all 7 magnetic fields.No one said we were goiing to AL smarttypants.
They all said, "WHEN THE SH CREW IS TOGETHER!!" and then on.
If you disagree, show me ONE guy that said "we're going to SA" since Law's ship was shown… Or in the war.
On the final one, he was shown in okama outfits and heading towards a ship, like "bye bye assholes!!" or something.
The rest of your post isn't worth the time. :getlost:
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imo the arguments for and against hancock are both strong.
so im really looking forward to how things turn out.
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We must consider that Jinbei's not the type of guy that will just despair and abandon Fishman Island to its own luck just because he can't protect it alone, right? Just because he couldn't protect it in the past, it doesn't mean that circunstances can't change.
Just like circunstances may change that allow Hancock to leave her island without dooming it into becoming a flaming crater.
(And, I admit, just like circunstances may change that allow Jinbei to go with Luffy as well. My problem right now is not that he can't go with Luffy, but that so far he seems to lack some motivation to join Luffy's crew.)
But this is fact: Hancock's heart lies with Luffy. All her actions in the past saga have been directed towards Luffy. Jinbei's heart lies with his island. All his actions in the past saga have been directed towards protecting it (via Whitebeard).
The Strawhats have a clean record of cleaning messes in every island they visit. So, they may leave Amazon Lily in a situation that allows it to be more secure. They may defeat some forces that would allow the denizens of fishman island to better defend themselves in the future. Both situations are really probable.
But of right now, Hancock has some impulse towards remain with Luffy once her island is safe. I don't see the same impetus from Jinbei. If someone's willing make a theory about why he'd go with the Strawhats, I'm more than happy to discuss it.
So we're both agreeing on Hancock's bit? That she will be willing to leave the island assuming it aint getting attacked. The threat will always be there but she will leave anyway. Yeah?
As for Jinbei's motivation. This brings me back to the promise he made to Ace, if I am being honest, that was when I started considering them as a possible nakama seriously. He promised Ace to take care of Luffy, now he is going to stick with Luffy until he is fully recovered. We can safely assume I think, that Luffy will be able to fight in Fishman Island or that there will be conflict against Luffy. This is where Jinbei's promise comes into place, he can either protect Luffy and fight on his behalf or along side of him making sure he is ok. So in the end, it'll be based of how the fishman island arc ends, if Jinbei believes Luffy can cope fine in the New World and say "Ace, i've tried my best but I must help my people in fishman Island" or he can join the SH's and watch Luffy's back throughout the series. Even when Luffy is stronger than Jinbei, his promise is still there, Im sure he will be willing to sacrafise himself to protect him.
But yeah, the jinbei argument is weak. I'll admit that, I dont think any strong arguments for him can be made until the fishman island arc. Hancock on the other hand, I believe we'll know before that.
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So we're both agreeing on Hancock's bit? That she will be willing to leave the island assuming it aint getting attacked. The threat will always be there but she will leave anyway. Yeah?
I think they will reduce the level of threat somehow, but obviously it's impossible to be 100% sure. I do think the amazons themselves will learn of Hancock's secret or love and encourage her to go and be happy, but that's just a theory.
As for Jinbei's motivation. This brings me back to the promise he made to Ace, if I am being honest, that was when I started considering them as a possible nakama seriously. He promised Ace to take care of Luffy, now he is going to stick with Luffy until he is fully recovered.
Well, we never saw Jinbei agreeing to protect Luffy, right? He said he wouldn't promise anything.
Anyway, I must ask: even if he keeps that promise, how far will Jinbei go for Luffy? Would he abandon all other concerns and keep close to Luffy all times to "protect" him? Or was Ace asking Jinbei more in the terms of "if something happen to me, watch over my brother just like I'd do", meaning that he would lend a hand when Luffy is needed, but Luffy has his own path and adventure to follow?
So in the end, it'll be based of how the fishman island arc ends,
I fully agree.
if Jinbei believes Luffy can cope fine in the New World and say "Ace, i've tried my best but I must help my people in fishman Island" or he can join the SH's and watch Luffy's back throughout the series. Even when Luffy is stronger than Jinbei, his promise is still there, Im sure he will be willing to sacrafise himself to protect him.
THat's how I see the essence of the promise. It's not "babysit my brother", but "watch over him, come to his aid if he really needs it".
imo the arguments for and against hancock are both strong.
so im really looking forward to how things turn out.
Me too.
Hancock has a greater chance of joining right now, IMO, but a "chance" still means it may not happen.
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But still, people seem to know it exists. People like the prisoners of Level 6 in Impel Down, for instance.
They don't know how to find it, just rumors… Provide proof that any person found it with relative ease. I don't remember anything like that... I don't even remember people "explaining" how they found AL in the first place.
Well, the time allows it. The crew was separated for a week already, so they may have cleaned up any business in their current locations. Hancock's return to AL will take around 1 or 2 weeks. If the crew reunites in Sabaody in one more week, they could reach Amazon Lily in another week of travel.
Once again, you're jumping the gun. They have various PLACES and THINGS to do… Obviously, they don't have much of anything to look forward to.
We don't know the distance for them to end up on SA, we don't know if they'll leave without all of them together, and we surely don't know that they'll have information to know where the AL island is. We know that they are rookies on the Grand Line and they don't know anything at all.
What we do know is that they head to Rayleigh and that Luffy has a free ride provided to do the same with the Kuja... What we don't know is what happens in between the crew departing for FI, and so on.
This is the bare minimum... everything beyond would be an assumption.
The only unknown time constraints is how long Iva's travel to Kamabakk will take, and if Sanji will still be there.
Try everything, we don't have any time at all…
Not that I have seen. We know he was forced into becoming okama or was disguised as one in order to evade persecutors, but we have not seen him escape the island itself.
His direction is heading to the ships on the shoreline… He's saying, "Goodbye" ... Am I wrong?
That's a pretty good con against my theory, I admit, but Buggy's crew was able to buy an Eternal Pose to Impel Down. Maybe, just maybe, one can afford something similar to point Amazon Lily?
We just don't know if they exist somewhere and we don't know if there's even one for the island… The Calm Belt properties weren't explained.
All we know is that the Marines were waiting there somehow. And Hancock is able to return from her trips somehow.
That's all.
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I know, I understand we have different opinions. Nothing wrong with that. But you can aknowledge my opinion and I can aknowledge yours. That brings better discussions.
But seriously, can you have some theory on why Jinbei would want to follow Luffy beyond FI? It's a serious question, because that's one of the major problems I have with him joining. A good theory could change my mind. I really try to be open to new ideas.
Well I said it way back on the old thread. Jinbei is a wanted man now, he wasN't able to protect fishmen island alone in the past and he won't be it in the future. It is the gateway for all pirates and slave-traders that's why they needed WB's protecting. Now he is dead and it will be like in the past.
The reason I think he will join is because he may see in Luffy as well the future to end the slave-trading, discrimination and hate between fishmen and humans. And he wan't to help him cuz as we saw a few times… he really is respecting Luffy and is suprised by his actions.
Jinbei and Croc stated, that Jinbei is a unique fishman and that jinbei seems to be very sad for Arlongs doing to the humans at Nami's island.
He hasn't the power to change the world alone and hasn't to protect FI alone. And that's why I think he will join and his story will be fleshed out at FI.
Boa, if she keeps her status, can simply stay and all will be ok. Yeah she is in love but in my eyes it isn't really a dream for a joining to stay with Luffy. All other SHs so far has dreams to reach something big but Boa so far is only dreaming of being with Luffy. Yeah it can change if Oda want's but so far I don't believe it. Her slave trauma is OK. But in my eyes Luffy already showed her that he hates the WG for it. What can be her dream from now on? beating the WG to end the slave trading? Sorry but Jinbei and the fishman have to be a lot more afraid of that slave-thing than Boa ever was. We saw at SA that Fishmen and Mermaids were the ones who were tortured the most.
And Tiger and the slave thing has more relationship to Jinbei for sure than to Boa
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"Joining to protect" is no good. Luffy's the main character and he's supposed to become the Pirate King. He doesn't need someone around "protecting" him, since that would take away the moving forward and evolving on his own. Adventurers don't need life guards.
Besides, what will happen when Luffy's stronger than Jinbei. Wouldn't that ruin his entire purpose of tagging along?
If Jinbei is joining, and that's a big if for me, then it won't be for that purpose.
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"Joining to protect" is no good. Luffy's the main character and he's supposed to become the Pirate King. He doesn't need someone around "protecting" him, since that would take away the moving forward and evolving on his own. Adventurers don't need life guards.
Besides, what will happen when Luffy's stronger than Jinbei. Wouldn't that ruin his entire purpose of tagging along?
If Jinbei is joining, and that's a big if for me, then it won't be for that purpose.
Same is joining just because of love^^
And we have to wait till AL and FI ended.
Al is soon and we will see if Boa will join. If not it is all for Jinbei from them. Non of them has better chances now than the other.
It is just peronal taste and personal speculations why some peoplet hink one character has better chances.
For me Jinbei's Fi story, slave story, Arlong story, Tiger story, Ace promise story can be more fleshed out than Boa's love and slave story.
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Aside from personality, I think the major "against" for Jinbei is a reason to follow Luffy. He seems pretty committed to Fishman Island. Does anyone have a theory about a motive for Jinbei to join the crew?
I'm trying to recall when Jinbei even mentioned Fishman Island outside of his introduction? Even then, his expressed concern was for the "seas" and the world as a whole, not specifically Fishman Island. If you ask me, the inclusion of Fishman Island was just to show his personal experience in the matter at hand. I don't doubt that he cares for the island, but to what degree? Does he even feel responsibility for it, or is it just kinsmanship and history that would lead him to help the island in need? After all, his own words made it clear that he doesn't just help anyone, and just sticking around Fishman Island to protect it seems pretty close to "just helping anyone". At the moment it seems to be the opposite, as he has the opportunity to go wherever he wants but chooses to remain by Luffy's side.
Luffy somehow stopping attacks on Fishman Island as Newgate had. But I don't see how he could do that, hence why I don't think he'll stay with Luffy past FI.
It's certainly not easy to imagine a believable scenario, true, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that Oda will send us (the crew) through the island without some sort of permanent resolution for when they leave. The Strawhats always get involved and leave their location in a better position than when they arrived. Leaving Jinbei there would not give me (personally) that same comfort, and I would just assume that at any moment their island could be turned on its head again. Jinbei is strong, but he has been shown to be beatable (Ace, Akainu, Prison), and I don't have to remind anyone that his presence would only attract trouble (bounty), so it would be much more difficult for him to actively protect. All this assumes he even has the will or desire to remain there and protect.
Even if Luffy could somehow create a permanent solution to Fishman Island, would that make Jinbei go with Luffy?
Like all other crew members, were he to join we would likely learn of deeper goals. Often times getting fleshed out in their flashback. We can easily conclude that Jinbei has had ulterior motives, but what? For the last twenty years or so he has been a pirate, rather than remaining at or near Fishmand Island like you suggest he would do if Luffy emulated Whitebeard with protection. So he was a pirate with his fellow fishmen, then he effectively cut off his connection with all (or most) of his crew and works for his enemy (Marines/WG) as a Warlord. Doesn't sound like the Jinbei we know, and given his "I don't lend my hand to just anyone", his being a Warlord is especially suspicious to me. Anyway, he has more than once noted his debt for Luffy, has expressed surprise at Luffy's accomplishments, and is now remaining with Luffy outside of obligation. Per his little Ace-memory, he is choosing of his own free will to follow and lend Luffy his aid. I still cannot help but wonder why Oda showed us those scenes when we already knew he was willing to protect and die for Luffy.
I don't think that attitude would endure. Whoever joins will need to trust Luffy's abilities and judgment as captain.
Seems like this much is already starting to come out. In Impel Down he was mediating for Luffy and guiding him, but at Marineford he was backing Luffy up. He even threw Luffy over the wall per request, knowing how incredibly dangerous it was. As for his personality as a whole, I actually expect to see more from him once all the 'trouble' passes. He has been totally in character so far, given his character type and the setting of this arc, so once the setting changes I expect his behavior to adapt as well. I mean, most of the cast in the story has been funny at one point or another, so I don't see why Jinbei would be an exception.
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brennen and me think the same way it seems.
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Well, we never saw Jinbei agreeing to protect Luffy, right? He said he wouldn't promise anything.
Anyway, I must ask: even if he keeps that promise, how far will Jinbei go for Luffy? Would he abandon all other concerns and keep close to Luffy all times to "protect" him? Or was Ace asking Jinbei more in the terms of "if something happen to me, watch over my brother just like I'd do", meaning that he would lend a hand when Luffy is needed, but Luffy has his own path and adventure to follow?
Well I thought it was obvious that he had agreed to protect Luffy. The flashback was shown imo to indicate to us the readers that Jinbei's going to stick around for a while and this is the reason why. Further evidence that he has accepted that promise would be putting himself in danger to protect Luffy against Akainu. Seeing Ace and Whitebeard getting magma fisted can't be easy, but he still put himself between Luffy and Akainu. I think that alone is enough to say Jinbei greatly respects and cares for Luffy and has definitely taken Ace's promise to heart. But like you said, now the question is: How far will Jinbei go to protect Luffy? I like many others don't want a "babysitter" either, but that is not a "Jinbei cannot join because a babysitter would just be silly" argument. But again, I can't say anymore until I see more of Jinbei and Fishman Island however I am sure Jinbei isn't going to leave Luffy to go to the New World unless he is absolutely sure that he is in good hands and that he will safe/fine.
As for your "all other concerns", what is there so far that we know of? Fishman Island and that he is a wanted man. Well Im expecting some kind of impact that the SH's are going to have on FI, this may leave Jinbei feeling that he owes the SH's and goes with them? Or like many other people have said, the rest of Whitebeard pirates can come and help out and Jinbei stays and tags along with the WB priates instead. This does sound good but I doubt this just because the SH's wont have much impact in that case, as the WB pirates can easily handle whatever the SH's will be able to.
Then there is the wanted man thing, what is better for a wanted man than to keep moving? So he could go with the SH's I reckon. But doubt the wanted man thing is a big issue.
Sorry for repeating myself at times, my mind just goes in circles at times. :]
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For me Jinbei's Fi story, slave story, Arlong story, Tiger story, Ace promise story can be more fleshed out than Boa's love and slave story.
By your logic, Marg is nothing compared by those two.
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By your logic, Marg is nothing compare by those two.
Marg is nothing compared to them. She hasn't even near the chances both of them have. I just like her more than Boa and Jinbei.
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For me it's still the big chance that both Boa and Jimbei would join.
I can make AGOG style analysis. But i wouldn't.I just need to wait few more chapter.
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For me it's still the big chance that both Boa and Jimbei would join.
I can make AGOG style analysis. But i wouldn't.I just need to wait few more chapter.
Yeah youn just have to wait for few chapter and what will haptpen at AL. That's the difference to Jinbei and Perona. There we have to wait longer till we can say that.
But Boa will be decided soon.
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For me it's still the big chance that both Boa and Jimbei would join.
I can make AGOG style analysis. But i wouldn't.I just need to wait few more chapter.
I'm not jumping on the Jinbei bandwagon until Fishman Island is shown to be void of a better alternative than this guy…
I always have the idea that there's bound to be a better substitute than Jinbei, somewhere.
Perona, though, I feel that there's no need not to jump on her bandwagon...
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Blablabla
Okay, the theory has its flaws and according to you there seem to be absolutely no way around it. That's fine. It's just a theory.
Well I said it way back on the old thread. Jinbei is a wanted man now, he wasN't able to protect fishmen island alone in the past and he won't be it in the future. It is the gateway for all pirates and slave-traders that's why they needed WB's protecting. Now he is dead and it will be like in the past.
This is where I think your argument becomes weak: just because Jinbei couldn't protect the island alone before, does it mean he will abandon it to its own luck now? His biggest objective that we know is to protect the island. Why abandon it in the hopes that somehow in the future someone will come and protect it for him? If anything, the defenseless nature of the island should make him try harder, not go away.
The reason I think he will join is because he may see in Luffy as well the future to end the slave-trading, discrimination and hate between fishmen and humans. And he wan't to help him cuz as we saw a few times… he really is respecting Luffy and is suprised by his actions.
Jinbei and Croc stated, that Jinbei is a unique fishman and that jinbei seems to be very sad for Arlongs doing to the humans at Nami's island.
He hasn't the power to change the world alone and hasn't to protect FI alone. And that's why I think he will join and his story will be fleshed out at FI.
I dunno, in my opinion joining Luffy in the hopes that Luffy will end the slavetrade and discrimination seems not a logical conclusion. Just an opinion.
Boa, if she keeps her status, can simply stay and all will be ok. Yeah she is in love but in my eyes it isn't really a dream for a joining to stay with Luffy. All other SHs so far has dreams to reach something big but Boa so far is only dreaming of being with Luffy. Yeah it can change if Oda want's but so far I don't believe it. Her slave trauma is OK. But in my eyes Luffy already showed her that he hates the WG for it. What can be her dream from now on? beating the WG to end the slave trading? Sorry but Jinbei and the fishman have to be a lot more afraid of that slave-thing than Boa ever was. We saw at SA that Fishmen and Mermaids were the ones who were tortured the most.
The big difference between Hancock and Jinbei in my eyes is that, should Luffy solve the problems of both of them, who would want to stay with Luffy?
Luffy somehow solves the Amazon Lily problem, and that frees Hancock to stay with her love.
Luffy solves the Fishman Island problem, and what will keep Jinbei around?
And Tiger and the slave thing has more relationship to Jinbei for sure than to Boa
Fisher Tiger may have a stronger relation to Jinbei, but the slave thing? No way. That experience twisted her life entirely and still haunts her to this day.
I'm trying to recall when Jinbei even mentioned Fishman Island outside of his introduction? Even then, his expressed concern was for the "seas" and the world as a whole, not specifically Fishman Island. If you ask me, the inclusion of Fishman Island was just to show his personal experience in the matter at hand. I don't doubt that he cares for the island, but to what degree? Does he even feel responsibility for it, or is it just kinsmanship and history that would lead him to help the island in need? After all, his own words made it clear that he doesn't just help anyone, and just sticking around Fishman Island to protect it seems pretty close to "just helping anyone". At the moment it seems to be the opposite, as he has the opportunity to go wherever he wants but chooses to remain by Luffy's side.
I must respectifully disagree. Jinbei's dialogue in chapter 529 makes pretty clear that the reason he respects Whitebeard is because he protected fishman island:
Stephen's script:
_Jinbei: …and I too, at your hands!
I simply wanted to be of use to him...
The reason there is peace in Fishman Island…
...is due to the help of your "Dad," Whitebeard.
On the trip through the Grand Line, every pirate must pass through Fishman Island…
When the Age of Piracy began, the island was soon wracked with violence...
Torn to shreds by the countless human pirates and the Marines that pursued them!- Page 4 -
Jinbei: Many fishmen and mermaids were kidnapped… sold...
When we had all shut our eyes tight against despair, Whitebeard made his appearance...< <whitebeard: this="" island…<br="">...is now MY territory!!!
Jinbei: I'll never forget that day!
Ever since then, Fishman Island was off-limits to anyone who would seek to run rampant…
The POWER he wields…!
He protects many islands with the use of his name in this same way…
This is not the kind of man who can be freely toppled, just because he's a pirate captain!
SURELY the government is aware of what would happen on the seas if Whitebeard should die!!</whitebeard:>_It's certainly not easy to imagine a believable scenario, true, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that Oda will send us (the crew) through the island without some sort of permanent resolution for when they leave. The Strawhats always get involved and leave their location in a better position than when they arrived. Leaving Jinbei there would not give me (personally) that same comfort, and I would just assume that at any moment their island could be turned on its head again. Jinbei is strong, but he has been shown to be beatable (Ace, Akainu, Prison), and I don't have to remind anyone that his presence would only attract trouble (bounty), so it would be much more difficult for him to actively protect. All this assumes he even has the will or desire to remain there and protect.
That was my point a few posts above. The SH's always leave an island better than it left. And they'll do the same to Hancock's island.
Between Hancock and Jinbei, who has a clear motivation to stick to Luffy after their problems are solved?
Like all other crew members, were he to join we would likely learn of deeper goals. Often times getting fleshed out in their flashback. We can easily conclude that Jinbei has had ulterior motives, but what? For the last twenty years or so he has been a pirate, rather than remaining at or near Fishmand Island like you suggest he would do if Luffy emulated Whitebeard with protection.
Now you're using arguments that are baseless. We know nothing for how long Jinbei was a pirate, nor what the Sunny/Fishman pirates used to do. We don't know if they traveled long and far, or if they sticked to their territorial waters, protecting Fishman Island. THose are just assumptions.
So he was a pirate with his fellow fishmen, then he effectively cut off his connection with all (or most) of his crew and works for his enemy (Marines/WG) as a Warlord. Doesn't sound like the Jinbei we know, and given his "I don't lend my hand to just anyone", his being a Warlord is especially suspicious to me. Anyway, he has more than once noted his debt for Luffy, has expressed surprise at Luffy's accomplishments, and is now remaining with Luffy outside of obligation. Per his little Ace-memory, he is choosing of his own free will to follow and lend Luffy his aid. I still cannot help but wonder why Oda showed us those scenes when we already knew he was willing to protect and die for Luffy.
THose scenes exist to show Jinbei's feelings at that moment. He actually refused to promise anything, but the flashback indicates that he ended up respecting Luffy anyway and thus is protecting him both because Ace asked and because Luffy gained his respect.
BUt how far that promise goes? Will he babysit Luffy from now on? Or will he lend Luffy a hand when he needs it and it's within Jinbei's power to do it?
Seems like this much is already starting to come out. In Impel Down he was mediating for Luffy and guiding him, but at Marineford he was backing Luffy up. He even threw Luffy over the wall per request, knowing how incredibly dangerous it was. As for his personality as a whole, I actually expect to see more from him once all the 'trouble' passes. He has been totally in character so far, given his character type and the setting of this arc, so once the setting changes I expect his behavior to adapt as well. I mean, most of the cast in the story has been funny at one point or another, so I don't see why Jinbei would be an exception.
Well, one of the my points is that characters evolve, so I must agree with that last paragraph, in special the bolded part.
Wow, long post. :wassat:
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And once again Deicide… So the only reason for Boa to join is because of the love for Luffy? So he would get her dream right on the spot if she joins.
And your biggest problem is now... Will be AL save cuz Boa will keep her status or not? If yes, forget it if no than maybe? FI on the other and will have some sort of danger. So no way you can say Boa has more chances than jinbei. It is just you personal opinion of the future stoy-line. For current she has even lower chances if she will keep her status. But that can change
And sorry but Jinbei, the fishmen, the mermaids, even fishmen island on the whole has far more story to the whole slave trading theme than Boa could ever had.
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hmmm, quick question:
If Boa can make her island safe by becoming a shichibukai, why doesnt Jimbei request the same thing from WG?
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hmmm, quick question:
If Boa can make her island safe by becoming a shichibukai, why doesnt Jimbei request the same thing from WG?
Because it is not the WG who is attacking his island. The people who are attacking his island are pirates and slave traders. Even after renouncing his position as a shichibukai they are not looking to terrorize the island. The reason AL is in danger is because they are a pirating nation. Fishmen and mermaids on the other hand, seem to have an economy fueled by legal businesses. As for why the government doesnt protect them, I believe that is either because the tenryuubito push to keep the slave trade going as well as their agents and marine soldiers being racist against fishmen.
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hmmm, quick question:
If Boa can make her island safe by becoming a shichibukai, why doesnt Jimbei request the same thing from WG?
The FI and WG have a treaty up for the past 300 years or so.
His reason to be a Shichibukai isn't known, so to speak…
We don't know what he was doing with that title, anyway.
What we do know is that the Pirates and Criminals cause havoc in the FI, not the WG officials, like Marines and such... They're honoring their treaty.
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And once again Deicide… So the only reason for Boa to join is because of the love for Luffy? So he would get her dream right on the spot if she joins.
I think she needs to get a dream before she joins, but the love also counts. My point is the following: as small as "love" can be a reason (or unreason), it's still more than "nothing". We can all theorize about what could make Jinbei join or what dream Jinbei or Hancock could have, but the love thing is not theory, it's fact. It's the reason behind all her actions in the past two arcs, and it's clearly a strong motivation.
And your biggest problem is now… Will be AL save cuz Boa will keep her status or not? If yes, forget it if no than maybe? FI on the other and will have some sort of danger. So no way you can say Boa has more chances than jinbei. It is just you personal opinion of the future stoy-line. For current she has even lower chances if she will keep her status. But that can change
I think she will lose her status, they'll attack Amazon Lily no matter what just to get her. Cue asskicking and saving the day. As Luffy (and the SH's, I believe) are departing, Hancock is torn between duty and love, but it will be the amazons themselves that will encourage her to be happy. During the arc we will also see a lot of hints why another attack is unfeasible for the time being and the pride of the amazons and all those small details that make a difference.
And sorry but Jinbei, the fishmen, the mermaids, even fishmen island on the whole has far more story to the whole slave trading theme than Boa could ever had.
That I can't agree. The slavery thread is not limited to fishmen. It may be a racial theme for fishmen and mermaids, but for Hancock it's a personal theme.
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And once again Deicide… So the only reason for Boa to join is because of the love for Luffy? So he would get her dream right on the spot if she joins.
Hei. Hei. What's wrong with that dream.?
Maybe she can have secondary dream to erase all slavery in the world.
It's similar to Franky. He want to build awesome ship. He must join to accomplished that.If you want a lulz dream example you can see Usopp dream.
Being a brave warrior of the sea. -
What if the Amazons denounce Hancock in front of the WG, say she's no longer their leader, and wish to setup a new treaty with the WG and work with them?
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@The:
What if the Amazons denounce Hancock in front of the WG, say she's no longer their leader, and wish to setup a new treaty with the WG and work with them?
It could work. I theorized that myself a long time ago, but it's not a popular theory. Most people around here will dismiss it. Wait and see.
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I think she needs to get a dream before she joins, but the love also counts. My point is the following: as small as "love" can be a reason (or unreason), it's still more than "nothing". We can all theorize about what could make Jinbei join or what dream Jinbei or Hancock could have, but the love thing is not theory, it's fact. It's the reason behind all her actions in the past two arcs, and it's clearly a strong motivation.
I think she will lose her status, they'll attack Amazon Lily no matter what just to get her. Cue asskicking and saving the day. As Luffy (and the SH's, I believe) are departing, Hancock is torn between duty and love, but it will be the amazons themselves that will encourage her to be happy. During the arc we will also see a lot of hints why another attack is unfeasible for the time being and the pride of the amazons and all those small details that make a difference.
That I can't agree. The slavery thread is not limited to fishmen. It may be a racial theme for fishmen and mermaids, but for Hancock it's a personal theme.
Well that's the point. You think she will lose her status. But really Deicide you can't say she has bigger chances than Jinbei even now.
Look at that
We don't know if there will be a rescue AL arc. But we can be sure there will be a FI one
You can't say Boa's theme will be around the slave-trading, if fishmen and mermaids and the whole Fi is suffering the most under this. That's why Fishmen Tiger came for the rescue. That's why WB was needed to protect. That's why fishmen are hating humans and so on… And you can't deny that Fishmen Tiger will have more story in a Jinbei story than in Boa's or can you?
And like I said... she has no dream so far. being with luffy just because of love isn't a dream for me. And like I said the slave-trading is more a fishmen issue around the past of Tiger, fishman pirates and so on.
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It could work. I theorized that myself a long time ago, but it's not a popular theory. Most people around here will dismiss it. Wait and see.
I think it would work fine, kind of like the way Coby got to join the marines. :happy:
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@The:
What if the Amazons denounce Hancock in front of the WG, say she's no longer their leader, and wish to setup a new treaty with the WG and work with them?
I hate to do exactly what deicide said, but this is my interpretation of the problem.
The WG has always had a problem with the Kuja, not because hancock, a former slave is their leader, but because they are a nation of pirates. It doesn't matter to the WG who the leader of the country is. If the nation still identifies themselves as a pirate nation they will go after them. And even if thye did denounce their pirate roots, I doubt the WG would be so quick to forgive them for it. They have been pirates since before hancock and her sisters ever even joined the crew.
I'm not saying there's no chance for AL to be safe, that would be a ridiculous claim. I just don't believe that would work.
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Well that's the point. You think she will lose her status. But really Deicide you can't say she has bigger chances than Jinbei even now.
No one can. "Chance" is a mathematical thing, and we have no numbers to base it off, right? Everyone who says X has more chance is just saying his or her biased opinion.
Look at that
We don't know if there will be a rescue AL arc. But we can be sure there will be a FI one
Considering we are returning to AL right now, I find it hard to believe that nothing of importance will happen there. It doesn't need to be a "rescue" arc in order to tie the loose threads.
You can't say Boa's theme will be around the slave-trading, if fishmen and mermaids and the whole Fi is suffering the most under this. That's why Fishmen Tiger came for the rescue. That's why WB was needed to protect. That's why fishmen are hating humans and so on… And you can't deny that Fishmen Tiger will have more story in a Jinbei story than in Boa's or can you?
If Hancock has joined by the time they go to FI, then her experiences as slave may have a lot of importance during the arc.
And like I said… she has no dream so far. being with luffy just because of love isn't a dream for me. And like I said the slave-trading is more a fishmen issue around the past of Tiger, fishman pirates and so on.
The "she has no dream so far" is even worse for Jinbei. He not only has no dream so far, he so far lacks any motivation to travel with Luffy beyond Fishman Island.
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Well but it's no use… We have to wait and see what will happen at AL. The rest is just speculation but still I hate to hear that Boa has more chances than Jinbei if she has the same cons to join as Jinbei. And even one more. She is an empress of an whole island an STILL a Shichibukai. Jinbei is non of both