@HaxeyeMihawk:
But the marines as a symbol of justice isn't limited to a case by case basis, if they fail here but still exist as an entity and as law enforcement under the WG then they would still be viewed as the symbol of justice in the world. You're saying that Justice would've lost, but it'd really just be one battle (an admittedly big one albeit) in an ongoing
fight against piracy. I just find it hard to view it as such a huge loss that would totally wreck their credibility when the outcome would be the death of Whitebeard, I mean that's one hell of a consolation prize.
Again, after their losses at the other points of the Tarai Current, I don't see yet another failure as good for their image, but as I'm about to say below, I guess it could work if the entire WG take a lurch towards Dark Justice.
@Urouge:
What if a loss in reputation and not strength only gave them encouragement to get stronger? In that case, top form could only occur if Ace escapes.
You mean go into vengeance mode with Dark Justice galore? That could work.
@brennen.exe:
And to that, the only argument I can make is that it can just as easily be used as a building block for Ace's potential future. That, and that Oda has had other characters say virtually the same thing on the matter (potential, etc). Oh, and also that by killing Ace it would completely destroy the purpose (for Luffy, and us) of the last year and more. Of course I am not throwing egg at you and saying Ace will not die, I just think that there is much (MUCH) more reason to believe he will survive, and like Urouge I have yet to see a decent reason for Ace to actually die. Your credibility argument is the closest thing to it, but you will have to forgive me for not really buying stock in that one.
And of course my counterargument would be that Ace's death would set the foundation for a stronger and darker WG spreading its tentacles into the New World for the Void Century conclusion, the revolutionary arc which I assume is coming and for smoker to rail against while trying to pursue his Justice.
@brennen.exe:
Well hold on, that is Oda's formula for 'death' and 'killing characters off', not how he handles arcs. I was referring to Luffy having an ultimate goal and succeeding in one way or another at the end. Having Luffy put his crew on the back burner, almost die and lose years of his life to remain alive, and then fight an impossible battle to save his brother… only to watch him die from 10 feet away would be breaking every formula Oda has. Not just 'death'.
Ok, then yes, I want to see Luffy fail. We've already had a hugely long rescue arc that was successful. I want to see Luffy deal with the death of his brother. The reason I can see this happening is Teach. Through his "Event to shock the world", Oda has also prepared us for something shocking to happen, and it is due about now - and with Newgate already at deaths door, killing him would no longer be quite as shocking anymore(I know that Teach doesn't know this, but I assume we're supposed to be shocked too).
@brennen.exe:
If anything, knowing Oda, this will be the exact reason he allows Whitebeard to die. Like Merry, it "works" because they were already going to die naturally, so give them a good cause and noble death, and all is well. It sucks for us, the fans, to have to deal with Oda's anti-death, but this will technically give us a death without exiting Oda's comfort zone.
And it is a comfort zone…
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I've never doubted Oda'd kill off Newgate, but…will he kill someone he we haven't been getting used to fading away? Obviously I think so, but it's definitely the biggest point against me.
@brennen.exe:
That paragraph was aimed more at the portion of your post regarding Ace having a private excecution. There might be more motive behind this whole war, but the taking down Whitebeard was just a matter of convenience for them, not necessarily the purpose behind having the excecution in public.
This is where I really disagree. I think it was Robin at Water 7 who said that the pirates don't directly challenge the World Government, and that the WG's biggest threat was Dragon. I can't see any reason why the WG would risk taking so much damage from the lesser threat(leaving them far more vulnerable to Dragon) except to gain more control over the New World.
@brennen.exe:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5449/justaccordingtokeikakus.jpg
You need the Keikaku bit.
@andy:
Sengoku telling everyone who ace was also part of a plan to help take down WB which just shows you in more than one way ace was bait. Sengoku telling people about ace was not in a bubble it was part of a greater plan as we found out . Only when sengoku thought ace was of no more use and he had the WB pirates good did he try to kill him . They want ace dead yes but he was also bait to help take down WB.
But he already knew Newgate was on the way when he told everyone. I don't really see your point…If you're talking about the Squardo deal, it would have been the same if he were just rescuing another of Newgates "sons", I don't see that it made much difference, since the deal was to include the entirety of the Whitebeard Pirates.
