@Karate:
No one, not one soul has mentioned comparing goals.
@brennen.exe:
Basically, where has Ace shown less ambition than Luffy?
@Karate:
His ambitions have shifted, he has not held steady to his original goals.
@Vanessa:
Ace's ambitions have shifted. Luffy would never […] (let) his ambitions to become Pirate King be compromised. Luffy just isn't the kind of person would put his dream aside.
@brennen.exe:
I don't even think redirecting your ambition from yourself to another, or from one goal to another, shows a lack of ambition. Ambition, dreams, goals…they are not so subjective to self. Ambition, willpower, drive, and determination can still be there even if the dream or goal changes.
Seriously, this is why you need to define your terms and stick to them. Good heavens, I'm not even sure either of you understood a thing I said. This is exactly what I was talking about pages back; you don't even try to understand what others are saying.
Goal: the result or achievement toward which effort is directed. Dream: an aspiration or aim; synonymous of 'goal'.
Ambition: the willingness to strive for the attainment of an achievement or distinction, such as power, honor, fame, or wealth. Willpower: the strength of will to carry out one's decisions, wishes, or plans.
I don't mean to patronize, but notice how ambition plays a part in the definition of a goal or dream? They aren't all one and the same, so figure out when and where you mean each one. We don't know what Ace's dream or goal was. We can hypothesize, via a statement from Luffy, that it was to find the One Piece, which could, and likely does, extend to becoming the Pirate King. His ambition, his drive, his determination, his willpower, his whatever synonym you choose to use, is an entirely different matter. That has never wavered as far as I can tell, and is certainly up to par with what we have seen from Luffy. Luffy just has more examples to choose from for the obvious reason of him being the main character, so whether or not Ace has changed or altered his dream doesn't really matter so long as he holds on to the strength of will to carry out that decision or plan.
@Karate:
Me, you, and Brennan were all unaware that Luffy had mentioned it being the One Piece.
Speak for yourself. I included what Luffy said into my argument.
@Vanessa: [hide]@Vanessa:
So you don't like the way Zephos or I make our posts….
Well, I don't particularly care for your arrogant display of absolute certainty, as well as the undeserved disrespect towards others; I think it shows poor character and communication. Of course, I am not referring to every sentence or even every post, but a fair many fall into this category I think. This is irrelevant and unnecessary though, so I apologize for instigating it in the first place, and reiterate that I meant no offense. =)
@Vanessa:
There's a lot more than that, last couple of pages show them.
No, they don't. In regards to my question, and the topic I was discussing, they don't. The only argument presented about Ace's willpower, lack thereof, or shortcoming in comparison to Luffy have revolved around his goals, and therefore his decision to make Whitebeard the Pirate King.
@Vanessa:
If you think that then you haven't been reading my posts, at least the more recent ones.
I say it's the other way around. Luffy said that he sought One Piece. Does that mean beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was his primary goal, or that his goal was exactly the same as Luffy's (Pirate King)? To you, maybe. To me? Not at all. I assume that it was, or at the least that it was a goal. I mean, did Luffy even react to Ace saying he served under someone else? If it was really a big deal, Oda could have added something…anything, to suggest that Ace gave up something he had always wanted.
@Vanessa:
If you go from wanting to be the best to aiding someone else to be the best after being beaten by said person, it's obviously a step down.
You are merely twisting words. Worded another way: If you want to be the best, and in a record amount of time you make it to the final step before your goal, lose, get back up to protect your crew, get knocked out, get taken captive, attempt assassination, attempt assassination, attempt assassination, attempt assassination, attempt assassination, attempt assassination, repeat, repeat, etc…..then finally after an unknown amount of time gain respect for the man who spared your life and crew, forgave your assassination attempts, loved and cared for his crew like a father would a son, and apparently offered protection to islands that needed it, then deciding that man would be better suited for and/or deserved the title of "Pirate King" more is not a step down. Take into account that apparently everyone knew Whitebeard wanted to make Ace the Pirate King, and had no desire to become Pirate King himself, and you have a pretty determined little spitfire.
Hell, turn your logic around and apply it to Whitebeard. Are we to assume he never wanted One Piece? Never wanted to be the Pirate King? Did he have no dreams or goals? Because if he did, he sure as hell must have changed them if he now wants to make Ace the Pirate King. No?
@Vanessa:
Through Luffy we do: to become Pirate King.
You mean find One Piece? Read above.
@Vanessa:
Which is what we were told Ace was trying to do prior to becoming one of the Whitebeard Pirates.
I don't get it, do you start replying before reading the whole post? Half of your points are out of context sentences that I state myself in the following paragraph. It's no wonder you have no clue what I'm talking about. Haha, that's the problem with drawn out discussion and multi-quotes; context and relevance get thrown out the window.
@Vanessa:
The average pirate is the one who ransacks islands they go to, and the ones who'd search for One Piece simply "by default" are the kind who get picked off before even making it to Saobady Archipelago.
You are referring to Kidd's statement? Not that it matters, as that wasn't the point of the sentence. I'm basically saying that just because it is a goal, doesn't mean it is the goal, let alone their reason or ambition behind becoming a pirate. Some might just want freedom. Some might just want fame. Some money. Some power. It could simply be a means to an end. Even were this not the case, your goal still does not equate to your willpower. Also, once more, I am not saying that is or isn't the case for Ace; I am merely considering the possibility. Of course it really doesn't make a difference to the overall point that ambition does not equate to your goal, and vice-versa.
@Vanessa:
And he's done exactly that, how does this refute anything exactly.
There you go again, isolating a single sentence without considering why it is there. Do you understand what 'living without regret' means? It basically means accepting whatever comes your way, continuing to live how you choose to without backing down or running away from trials or hardship. To do that successfully, you have to have a strong force of will.
@Vanessa:
Teach, Kidd, Law and likely the rest of the Supernovas.
This is getting old, fast. I was referring to Luffy and Ace specifically. The sentence before and after should make that fairly obvious. I think I will skip the rest like this…
@Vanessa:
Newgate didn't save Ace's life from anything.
You understand what an analogy is, right? I was comparing the changing of goals while maintaining the ambitiousness to accomplish those goals, not the acts that led to such change.
@Vanessa:
Newgate's offer (was to) joining the Whitebeard Pirates or simply leave. If he had as much resolve as Luffy towards his initial goal he wouldn't have stuck around.
I must have missed that part. I recall him waking up later, surprised that he wasn't cuffed or being guarded. From Thatch's explanation, it seems more like they gave no options outside of joining. They'd probably just continue beating him to half to death or kill him. Not much use escaping anyway if the guy who kicked the crap out of you is still alive to hunt you down. You do remember the Whitebeard policy, right? "Everyone knows what happens if they lay a single finger on one of our crewmates." ~Marco
@Vanessa:
You can admire/respect someone while still being rivals.
Likewise you can admire/respect someone and want to elevate them to a higher status. Especially if you believe that they are more capable than you in that aspect. Note that Whitebeard, Shanks, and Sengoku would all clearly disagree with Ace on that though.
@Vanessa:
And no one ever said Ace lacked resolve, he simply doesn't match up to the likes of Luffy or Teach in that aspect.
Oh? Then are you basing the level of their resolve around the goal they have set? Like, Luffy has more resolve than Whitebeard, who wants to make Ace the Pirate King? Luffy has more than Zoro or Mihawk? More than, well, any pirate not aiming to be the Pirate King specifically? Either that, or you now have to show me, again, where Ace displays less resolve than Luffy specifically. Again, 100+ assassination attempts against the World's Strongest man doesn't exactly identify less resolve to me than, say, storming an enemy prison and fighting a poisonman at the expense of losing your arms or worse.
@Vanessa:
Never said it was weak. Ace is simply doing what he wants, and it just so happened to involve stopping changing his initial goals. It doesn't make him more compassionate or selfless than someone like Luffy.
I was going to skip this like the others, but it has a point I might as well cover. Luffy's dream and goal revolves around self. He wants to keep his crew and friends, of course, but he is selfish and is extremely determined to accomplish a specific goal for a specific reason. Ace has been shown, on almost every occasion, to be more level-headed, polite, compassionate, and selfless. Luffy giving up his goal or serving under someone else would go against his personality and his source of ambition*. I don't think it is the same for Ace on either account.
- This might appear like I am contradicting myself on something else I said earlier, but I'm not.@Vanessa:
You're making it sound like ambition=evil or something.
No worries, you are just misconstruing what I said. =P[/hide]