Shichibukai strength

[onemoment]

@Zkaiser:

Where do you come up with this shit?

I'm pointing out a pattern I've seen. The Strawhat's lost not necessarily because their opponent was better then them, but because they were at a disadvantage. That's what happened at Water 7, the Strawhats were stronger then the CP9 the whole time, but they kept getting caught in disadvantageous circumstances.

Don't focus so much on that "emotionally distraught" part, cause that's mainly what I hear most people state as the SHs reason for losing at Water 7. In Kuma's case, he mostly attacks the group after they've fought insanely difficult fights that drain their strength. I mean, think of the odds. Odz plus Moria the first time, then a Kumabot, Sentomaru, a second Kumabot, and a little bit of Kizaru the next. That's crazy.

It's true isn't it? Kuma's never beaten the entire Strawhats crew while they're in proper fighting condition. While Kuma's display of power is impressive, we've never seen him fight an enemy on even ground.

[Zkaiser]

@onemoment:

Don't focus so much on that "emotionally distraught" part,

That's what I was focusing on because it was pure bs.

[Airflow]

@onemoment:

I'm pointing out a pattern I've seen. The Strawhat's lost not necessarily because their opponent was better then them, but because they were at a disadvantage. That's what happened at Water 7, the Strawhats were stronger then the CP9 the whole time, but they kept getting caught in disadvantageous circumstances.

Don't focus so much on that "emotionally distraught" part, cause that's mainly what I hear most people state as the SHs reason for losing at Water 7. In Kuma's case, he mostly attacks the group after they've fought insanely difficult fights that drain their strength. I mean, think of the odds. Odz plus Moria the first time, then a Kumabot, Sentomaru, a second Kumabot, and a little bit of Kizaru the next. That's crazy.

It's true isn't it? Kuma's never beaten the entire Strawhats crew while they're in proper fighting condition. While Kuma's display of power is impressive, we've never seen him fight an enemy on even ground.

Ok then, let's ignore this emotional/weariness bullshit and look at the facts.

All the strawhats put together were barely able to defeat Px4 when they were at full strength. This is largely because of it's near impregnable armor as the only thing that could do was fire lasers and waddle around a bit.

Kuma is the Px4 plus:

*Intelligence
*The ability to move at the speed of light
*The ability to repel something at the speed of light
*The ability to remove something from the battle
*The ability to create a fucking massive shockwave that can total an island
*The ability to remove his own pain and use it against you
*Badass

Kuma isn't losing to anything short of an admiral.

[TLC]

@Airflow101:

Ok then, let's ignore this emotional/weariness bullshit and look at the facts.

All the strawhats put together were barely able to defeat Px4 when they were at full strength. This is largely because of it's near impregnable armor as the only thing that could do was fire lasers and waddle around a bit.

Kuma is the Px4 plus:

*Intelligence
*The ability to move at the speed of light
*The ability to repel something at the speed of light
*The ability to remove something from the battle
*The ability to create a fucking massive shockwave that can total an island
*The ability to remove his own pain and use it against you
*Badass

Kuma isn't losing to anything short of an admiral.

Let's not over-rate his strength. I wouldn't go THAT far. But yeah, Kuma's not losing any time soon.

[Zkaiser]

@Airflow101:

*The ability to remove his own pain and use it against you

We don't know if he can do that to himself.

A majority of his body is probably machine so he probably doesn't have fatigue. He probably just gets functioning problems and low energy.

[Airflow]

@Zkaiser:

We don't know if he can do that to himself.

A majority of his body is probably machine so he probably doesn't have fatigue. He probably just gets functioning problems and low energy.

The common sense view would be that he can do it to anything that can feel pain, such as himself, but you're right, it would be very Odaish to put a limit on his power.

[Zkaiser]

@Airflow101:

The common sense view would be that he can do it to anything that can feel pain, such as himself, but you're right, it would be very Odaish to put a limit on his power.

I agree with your post, but we don't know if Kuma feels pain or fatigue.

[Zyordius]

I've wondered myself if Kuma could remove his own pain(if he feels it). That would make him very powerful but the good point or whether of not he gets fatigued is an issue along with what happens when his machine parts are damaged. I can see those aspects(being a cyborg) coming back to hurt him at some point maybe. Cool thing about Kuma, even if they slapped some seastone cuffs on him, he's still an cyborg with possible enhanced strength and defense(can't remember if it's been said that he's physically stronger with the implants.) and modified hidden weapons. Not to sure what the WG is going to do with him, Vegapunk has already used him for his research, but then again, maybe Vegapunk isn't done modifying him yet. So much unknown…

[Zkaiser]

@Zyordius:

I've wondered myself if Kuma could remove his own pain(if he feels it). That would make him very powerful but the good point or whether of not he gets fatigued is an issue along with what happens when his machine parts are damaged. I can see those aspects(being a cyborg) coming back to hurt him at some point maybe. Cool thing about Kuma, even if they slapped some seastone cuffs on him, he's still an cyborg with possible enhanced strength and defense(can't remember if it's been said that he's physically stronger with the implants.) and modified hidden weapons. Not to sure what the WG is going to do with him, Vegapunk has already used him for his research, but then again, maybe Vegapunk isn't done modifying him yet. So much unknown…

The big theory with Kuma is that since he said that he was an "incomplete" weapon, many believe that Vegapunk will be making some more modifications to him. Along with that many speculate that the final additions may do something to his memory. This is because of the line he said to Luffy when they last met.

[Zyordius]

@Zkaiser:

The big theory with Kuma is that since he said that he was an "incomplete" weapon, many believe that Vegapunk will be making some more modifications to him. Along with that many speculate that the final additions may do something to his memory. This is because of the line he said to Luffy when they last met.

Yea, that's a good point.Because of Kuma's actions, maybe they'll take him(not sure how they would unless it was Kizaru or Kuma surrendered) to Vegapunk to have his memory wiped, then work on him more. But man, Kuma a "complete" weapon…he would be quite a force to be reckoned with.

[Zkaiser]

@Zyordius:

Yea, that's a good point.Because of Kuma's actions, maybe they'll take him(not sure how they would unless it was Kizaru or Kuma surrendered) to Vegapunk to have his memory wiped, then work on him more. But man, Kuma a "complete" weapon…he would be quite a force to be reckoned with.

Another theory on Kuma, is that he is atoning for his sins as a pirate by sacrificing his body to Marine science. He was once known as "The Tyrant" who had committed every sin ever, but now we see him with a bible and he seems to be calm as ever. This is probably his rehab.

[Zyordius]

@Zkaiser:

Another theory on Kuma, is that he is atoning for his sins as a pirate by sacrificing his body to Marine science. He was once known as "The Tyrant" who had committed every sin ever, but now we see him with a bible and he seems to be calm as ever. This is probably his rehab.

hahaha, rehab is for quitters! But yea, for a guy once called The Tyrant he sure is calm. The bible has always struck me as odd just because religion hasn't been an issue in OP, i thought Gol D. Roger was Jesus(joking). It will be really nice when they finally explain(at least i hope they do) Kuma in full. He weaves an interesting web and his fingers are in a lot of peoples pie. Maybe the war will shine a little light on things.

[Brave heart]

to defeat kuma, u have to have enough power to get through that steel defense and also have enough haki to sense his movements.
there's a few people that are capable of doing that but kuma is still a force to reckon with.

[Crossword]

Given the nature of Kuma's powers, I really doubt the Straw Hats would've done any better against him if they were at full strength. All he has to do is get close enough, no problem considering he can basically teleport, and poof, you're on the other side of the globe. And any hits that have actually connected, Shishi Sonson, Strong Right, and Concasse, he's shrugged off like they were nothing. I mean, the entire crew was completely worn out from fighting a slower and dumber copy with no reflection abilities. An intellegent, lightning-fast, deflection machine would have, and did, have no trouble handling them.

I'm really looking forward to learning what Kuma's story is.

[TLC]

I disagree, for one thing, Luffy could have maintained Gear Second for a longer period of time.

[Zkaiser]

@Thousand:

I disagree, for one thing, Luffy could have maintained Gear Second for a longer period of time.

What does Luffy maintaining Gear 2nd longer have to do with their exchange? It wasn't even a factor.

[TLC]

@Zkaiser:

What does Luffy maintaining Gear 2nd longer have to do with their exchange? It wasn't even a factor.

Sure it was. He would have caught up to Nami, Robin and Chopper much faster!!!

But that aside, it's silly to say that had the crew been at full strength it wouldn't have made a difference. Even if Kuma was much stronger, they would have definitely lasted longer and some of them may have escaped.

[Zkaiser]

@Thousand:

Sure it was. He would have caught up to Nami, Robin and Chopper much faster!!!

Gear 2nd was in action from when Kuma puni'd Sanji until Kuma puni'd Luffy. In that span Kuma popped off, Nami, Robin, Chopper and Franky. Luffy even attempted a JET Pistol against Kuma, which he deflected. Gear 2nd made no difference and wouldn't have if he had been in it longer.

[TLC]

@Zkaiser:

Gear 2nd was in action from when Kuma puni'd Sanji until Kuma puni'd Luffy. In that span Kuma popped off, Nami, Robin, Chopper and Franky. Luffy even attempted a JET Pistol against Kuma, which he deflected. Gear 2nd made no difference and wouldn't have if he had been in it longer.

Nope, it was only in action till after Kuma puni'd Sanji and before he puni'd Franky. Go watch the anime.

Anyway, the point is the entire crew was weak and tired. Zoro wouldn't have standed there letting himself get puni'd, Sanji's legs wouldn't have been to the point of breaking, Franky would have had more Coup de Vents to give etc. Things definitely would have been different if they were at full strength.

[Crossword]

Yeah, but Kuma could still move faster than any of them. At most they might have been able to get a little further away before being poofed.

[Zkaiser]

@Thousand:

Nope, it was only in action till after Kuma puni'd Sanji and before he puni'd Franky. Go watch the anime.

Anyway, the point is the entire crew was weak and tired. Zoro wouldn't have standed there letting himself get puni'd, Sanji's legs wouldn't have been to the point of breaking, Franky would have had more Coup de Vents to give etc. Things definitely would have been different if they were at full strength.

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a difference in the battle, but the outcome would have been the same. And Sanji's legs breaking is just from him kicking stuff really hard which would have happened whether he was at full strength or not.

Go watch the anime.

Wow.

[TLC]

@Zkaiser:

I'm not saying that there wouldn't be a difference in the battle, but the outcome would have been the same. And Sanji's legs breaking is just from him kicking stuff really hard which would have happened whether he was at full strength or not.

Wow.

Go watch the anime for that scene-_-

I thought Gear Secnd was used for as long as you did until I watched the anime. It really wasn't clear in the manga.

And how do you know it would have been the same? For all you now, Zoro could have kept him busy for a couple of minutes.

[Zyordius]

@Brave:

to defeat kuma, u have to have enough power to get through that steel defense and also have enough haki to sense his movements.
there's a few people that are capable of doing that but kuma is still a force to reckon with.

There are other ways to sense movement besides "haki". Kuma is much more then fast movement and steel defense. His DF grants him many abilities both defensive and offensive. Then there's his cyborg implants which also have great defensive purposes but also well powered attacks. Not to mention his own fighting capabilities(besides hidden cyborg weapons or his DF) which hasn't been fully showcased. You're totally right that even if someone could meet him on equal ground, it would be one hell of a fight(unless he gets the ol' one punch wonder).

[UsoppSpell]

To Thousand-Lion-chan:

I think Zkaiser's "Wow." was referring to your attempted establishing of the anime as canon, something that reeks of ubernoobness. Simply put, he will not watch the anime for the sake of any validation towards real canon discussion, because it is moot. The anime does not validate arguments, it is not canon. I assume you know this, but understand that even if it is "for this scene" it still does not apply, and you need not insist upon it even if you have feelings about it, because you will not be heard. It is as friendly a reminder/warning as it gets. Others probably won't forgive this error in judgement without calling you names or being condescending.

AND I WANT TO SEE A FIGHT WHERE KUMA GETS OWNED! I NEED TO KNOW IT'S POSSIBLE!

Up till now, his abilities and cyborg status put him miles above the rest of the characters showcased with the exception of Kizaru and Rayleigh, and he isn't fighting any of those two soon. I think his weakness lies in that even though he is a monster, he's reflexes aren't as top notch as other characters. I think that is why he is always on the initiative while in combat. What I mean is that the remaining strawhats were able to reach him with their attacks, they just couldn't harm him. He can be taken by surprise by someone like Zoro and be cut(even if it is just a surface wound) so I imagine someone like Rayleigh Shanks or Mihawk could make mincebolt pie out of him.

[Besserwisser]

@Thousand:

Go watch the anime.

I won’t give much for the anime, this is only filler. I read the 07-Ghost Manga, too. After I saw the Anime from 07-Ghost there was an odd feeling. After I compared the first episodes from the Manga with the Anime I could only make a facepalm because there where many mistakes.

Further if Luffy loses his friends because he didn’t go full out would be a shame. I know he isn’t the smartest but this would be incredible stupid.

[UsoppSpell]

@Besserwisser:

I won’t give much for the anime, this is only filler. I read the 07-Ghost Manga, too. After I saw the Anime from 07-Ghost there was an odd feeling. After I compared the first episodes from the Manga with the Anime I could only make a facepalm because there where many mistakes.

Further if Luffy loses his friends because he didn’t go full out would be a shame. I know he isn’t the smartest but this would be incredible stupid.

Well yes, but one could stipulate that becuase Luffy didn't engage the Gear 2+3 combo, he didn't really go all out. But this is probably because of his decision to run instead of fight when he recognized that they were outmatched. Many of the things he encountered in that fight surprised and overwhelmed him, so he wasn't in top form or state of mind.

[ultimec1a]

@Thousand:

Go watch the anime for that scene-_-

I thought Gear Secnd was used for as long as you did until I watched the anime. It really wasn't clear in the manga.

And how do you know it would have been the same? For all you now, Zoro could have kept him busy for a couple of minutes.

Even with the Straw-Hats being at full power, Kuma is still too fast for them. Until they increase their speed–or find a way to either slow Kuma down or predict his movements--they cannot defeat him.

[TLC]

@ultimec1a:

Even with the Straw-Hats being at full power, Kuma is still too fast for them. Until they increase their speed–or find a way to either slow Kuma down or predict his movements--they cannot defeat him.

The point is not that they defeat him. It's that the battle ended differently, example some of them escape, he's wounded more etc.

Also the anime can be trusted as reference for making clear certain scenes in the manga that were not clear (example that Kizaru had practically killed Hawkins 8 more times with the tiny straw-men emerging which really cleared things up for me because in the manga Hawkins said he had only ten men yet only two straw-men were ever displayed to go out of him. The fact that Kizaru seriously damaged him eight more times wasn't very clear). It's the same here, the animators don't just make up shit on the spot, they make mistakes but the fact of the matter is, when devising the episode, they sit in a room on a desk facing each other and run by and hammer out every detail especially the ambiguous ones and they have the author himself to help them for even the tiniest confusion.

Also guys I think you're over-rating the teleport ability. It's been done five times before already including by the main character and a side-character.

[UsoppSpell]

@Thousand:

Nope, it was only in action till after Kuma puni'd Sanji and before he puni'd Franky. Go watch the anime.

Anyway, the point is the entire crew was weak and tired. Zoro wouldn't have standed there letting himself get puni'd, Sanji's legs wouldn't have been to the point of breaking, Franky would have had more Coup de Vents to give etc. Things definitely would have been different if they were at full strength.

And

@Thousand:

Also the anime can be trusted as reference for making clear certain scenes in the manga that were not clear (example that Kizaru had practically killed Hawkins 8 more times with the tiny straw-men emerging which really cleared things up for me because in the manga Hawkins said he had only ten men yet only two straw-men were ever displayed to go out of him. The fact that Kizaru seriously damaged him eight more times wasn't very clear). It's the same here, the animators don't just make up shit on the spot, they make mistakes but the fact of the matter is, when devising the episode, they sit in a room on a desk facing each other and run by and hammer out every detail especially the ambiguous ones and they have the author himself to help them for even the tiniest confusion.

Now please don't make this harder than it should be. It is true that they hammer out confusions, but anything that is not shown in a panel in the manga is left to speculation. That means that most battle sequences and animations are very often added or created. Granted it uses a certain logic, but it isn't canon. And the anime is not overseen by the author directly. You cannot use the anime to point something that specific within a timeline where that timeline isn't clear in the manga, BECAUSE IT WAS CREATED BY THE ANIMATION TEAM.

Sure it may sometimes help to make things clearer, but if it isn't clearly shown in the manga, and it IS clearly shown in the anime, then it is more likely the animators filling in the gaps. You may believe that the anime is a good source, but you are the only one, and that will not change even if you insist. Now, if you had stated that after Kuma deflects Luffy's Jet Pistol IN THE MANGA steam no longer comes out of his body, then that may have been a valid way to support your statement, but NEVER "watch the anime".

Even if it is based on the manga. One reason for it in this case is that the panel where luffy screams out Franky's name as he is being poofed, one could interpret that the steam around and proximal to luffy's head is coming out of him, and that it was at the shock of seeing franky poofed away as well that he lost his gear second instead of when he was blocked by Kuma moments before.

These kinds of ambiguities are settled in the anime because they need to be, but they often settled in the ways that they interpreted them, and are in no way a source for absolute evidence. They might have just as well decided that Gear second was active until after Nami was repelled away to give it a more dramatic effect and I would not have been surprised. After all, it's the anime. They do not concern themselves with these extremely specific and small inconsistencies, they just choose and are done with it. That is why we do not use the anime for canon reference.

EVER.
Unless we are discussing fillers.

[Besserwisser]

@Thousand:

Also the anime can be trusted as reference for making clear certain scenes in the manga that were not clear (example that Kizaru had practically killed Hawkins 8 more times with the tiny straw-men emerging which really cleared things up for me because in the manga Hawkins said he had only ten men yet only two straw-men were ever displayed to go out of him. The fact that Kizaru seriously damaged him eight more times wasn't very clear).

You’re wrong, in this point the Anime make it worse, too. Hawkins said””defense” probability of circumvention 76%”. For me this means that he can’t by an enemy from Kizarus strength and speed defend 100% and the Anime let him defend 10 times in a row. That’s really unlikely and stupid because I think he will need them. Hawkins and the other Supernovas will fight the Pacifista after Kizaru leaves and because of this Oda didn’t show that Hawkins used all straw-men.

[TLC]

@Besserwisser:

You’re wrong, in this point the Anime make it worse, too. Hawkins said””defense” probability of circumvention 76%”. For me this mean that he can’t by an enemy from Kizarus strength and speed defend 100% and the Anime let him defend 10 times in a row. That’s really unlikely and stupid because I think he will need them. Hawkins and the other Supernovas will fight the Pacifista after Kizaru leaves and because of this Oda didn’t show that Hawkins used all straw-men.

Er, what are you driveling about, anyway whatever happened in the manga in that scene with Kizaru and Hawkins was merely expanded upon in the anime, the same thing happened though.

Go get your facts straight.

Now please don't make this harder than it should be. It is true that they hammer out confusions, but anything that is not shown in a panel in the manga is left to speculation.
The scene in question was shown on panel but just didn't seem clear.

That means that most battle sequences and animations are very often added or created.

We're talking about an on-panel scene.

Granted it uses a certain logic, but it isn't canon.

Yes it is.

And the anime is not overseen by the author directly.

Yes it is. They ask him for everything.

You cannot use the anime to point something that specific within a timeline where that timeline isn't clear in the manga, BECAUSE IT WAS CREATED BY THE ANIMATION TEAM.

The specific point in question whether Luffy was in Gear Second or not which wasn't clear as the dust could have been mistaken for steam. Nothing to do with timelines.

Sure it may sometimes help to make things clearer,

More like most of the time.

but if it isn't clearly shown in the manga, and it IS clearly shown in the anime, then it is more likely the animators filling in the gaps.

There are no gaps to fill, it's an on-panel scene.

You may believe that the anime is a good source, but you are the only one, and that will not change even if you insist.

They have the freakin' author on their side, it's the second best source next to the manga.

Now, if you had stated that after Kuma deflects Luffy's Jet Pistol IN THE MANGA steam no longer comes out of his body, then that may have been a valid way to support your statement, but NEVER "watch the anime".

The same thing happens in the manga but it just didn't look clear. the anime makes it look clear. Go watch the anime.

Even if it is based on the manga.

It's exactly like the manga.

One reason for it in this case is that the panel where luffy screams out Franky's name as he is being poofed, one could interpret that the steam around and proximal to luffy's head is coming out of him, and that it was at the shock of seeing franky poofed away as well that he lost his gear second instead of when he was blocked by Kuma moments before.

Whatever happened in the anime is the correct interpretation because it's the AUTHOR'S interpretation. And let me make this clear because I don't want some goofball misunderstandings that you're capable off. Crap like the Kid/Law filler fight doesn't count because it's filler.

These kinds of ambiguities are settled in the anime because they need to be, but they often settled in the ways that they interpreted them, and are in no way a source for absolute evidence.

No they're interprtetd the way the author tells them to be interpreted.

They might have just as well decided that Gear second was active until after Nami was repelled away to give it a more dramatic effect and I would not have been surprised.

No they wouldn't because it wasn't in the manga.

After all, it's the anime. They do not concern themselves with these extremely specific and small inconsistencies, they just choose and are done with it.

Yes they do, they bust their asses over the smallest detail asking the author for input at important stages.

That is why we do not use the anime for canon reference.

EVER.

You're an idiot.

[Besserwisser]

@Thousand:

Er, what are you driveling about, anyway whatever happened in the manga in that scene with Kizaru and Hawkins was merely expanded upon in the anime, the same thing happened though.

You think the Anime is right in that point and I doubt it, stop your driveling and accept that not everybody believes what the Anime expanded. Keep in mind I doesn’t say the Anime must be wrong in this point but there is a possible. Hawkins would say in this case: ""interpretation" probability of mistake 76%"

[SunWuKong]

@Besserwisser:

You think the Anime is right in that point and I doubt it, stop your driveling and accept that not everybody believes what the Anime expanded. Keep in mind I doesn’t say the Anime must be wrong in this point but there is a possible. Hawkins would say in this case: ""interpretation" probability of mistake 76%"

no, he won't…so stop trying to be funny...:getlost:

but i have to agree with Thousand Lion-chan here...i just started to watch the anime (since the middle of TB) and till now the anime was pretty near to the manga. And A LOT of things that i didn't notice in the manga became clear in the anime.

edit: what i mean is that in the anime it is easier to focus on one picture at a time and with that the succession or some details (which you didn't noticed in the manga) or even some jokes are much clearer.

[Besserwisser]

@SunWuKong:

no, he won't…so stop trying to be funny...:getlost:

He would…so stop to being an idiot… :getlost:

[UsoppSpell]

Wow, I'm not even going to go point for point there. I'm trying to help you man. You said it yourself. It's the next best thing to the manga. You know why? Because it is based ON the manga, and the manga is the truth. You know why its the second best source after the Manga? Because somethimes they get it wrong, or change things.

You know why your argument has some appearance of reason in it? Because in this case you are using an example where the Anime and Manga are identical. Good for you. I never used an argument against your facts. I am merely trying to tell you that even if IN THIS CASE the anime is exactly the same as the manga, it isn't always, and so it isn't used in canon discussion. This is the core of my argument, not the nit-picking on whether or not in this case it does.

Now I have been very reasonable. Try to keep your pubescent head level and not start the name calling.

And while I give you that this Anime follows pretty close to the story, I still will not accept "watch the anime" as evidence to support anything. And expansions on episodes change interpretations, they are not seperate from the rest of the story, as is filler content. Should everyone agree with me? Perhaps not. But the fact remains that however small, differences between the two will always give one credit over the other, and stating anime as fact will generally lead to second-guessing.

[TLC]

@Besserwisser:

You think the Anime is right in that point and I doubt it, stop your driveling and accept that not everybody believes what the Anime expanded. Keep in mind I doesn’t say the Anime must be wrong in this point but there is a possible. Hawkins would say in this case: ""interpretation" probability of mistake 76%"

Atually there's nothing to think, it's undeniable.

Here's where Hawkins said that probability of defense by circumvention was 76%
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/07/
Here's where Hawkins said it was unwise to face an Admiral with only ten men.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/508/12/

Notice how two little straw-men came out.

Here's where Kizaru was firing eight shots into Hawkins. However, this wasn't very clear here.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/16/

Here's where Hawkin's men said that he was exceeding his damage limits (out of men though that wasn't very clear) and that Kizaru was gonna kill him.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/509/17/

Yet he was supposed to have had eight men left. So what happened to them?

That's because Kizaru had taken out the rest of them the previous page but it wasn't very clear (eight shots in one panel which weren't very clear as penetrating beams) and you didn't even see any straw-men coming out. Hence the anime made more clear with a small expansion what the manga didn't. So there's nothing TO believe, it's exactly like the manga but more clear.

Also stealing my own words is the mark of an incompetent debater (like you'd have used driveling if I ahdn't used it in my last post).

[Vanessa]

Never use the anime to prove anything, especially in the manga section. It holds no weight in a discussion here no matter how much you believe it to do so.

[TLC]

@UsoppSpell:

Wow, I'm not even going to go point for point there.

Uh huh, your attempts to run away are duly noted.

@UsoppSpell:

I'm trying to help you man.

No you're not, cut the patronizing bullshit.

@UsoppSpell:

You said it yourself. It's the next best thing to the manga. You know why? Because it is based ON the manga, and the manga is the truth. You know why its the second best source after the Manga? Because somethimes they get it wrong, or change things.

Yes, small things like Chopper having three rumbles balls when he should have ate only two not long things that affect the story and the drawing staff like how long Luffy uses Gear Second. On panel stuff interpretations can be taken as the correct interpretations.

@UsoppSpell:

You know why your argument has some appearance of reason in it?

You mean other than I'm using common sense?

@UsoppSpell:

Because in this case you are using an example where the Anime and Manga are identical. Good for you.

Which was the entire fucking point. Don't blame me because you delved into an argument like a disgruntled billy goat without knowing what the point even was.

@UsoppSpell:

I never used an argument against your facts.I am merely trying to tell you that even if IN THIS CASE the anime is exactly the same as the manga, it isn't always, and so it isn't used in canon discussion.

Yes it is and you making a goofball, baseless declaration doesn't change that. Rather than twiddling your thumbs, why don't you back up your claims with solid proof like I have.

@UsoppSpell:

Now I have been very reasonable. Try to keep your pubescent head level and not start the name calling.

Your moronic and cheap attempts to make yourself look like a calm, collected voice of reason while trying to condescend the person who you're arguing with make you even more of an idiot.

@Vanessa:

Never use the anime to prove anything, especially in the manga section. It holds no weight in a discussion here no matter how much you believe it to do so.

The point of the discussion is the anime's worth in elucidating certain ON-PANEL scenes not unscripted plot points.

Also the notion that the animation crew consists of a bunch of monkeys who fling around with the script of a chapter without any consideration of the events in the perspective of the author is retarded.

[Besserwisser]

@Thousand:

Hence the anime made more clear with a small expansion what the manga didn't. So there's nothing TO believe, it's exactly like the manga but more clear.

Maybe the interpretation from the Anime is right but I will never acknowledge the Anime as clear evidence.

@Thousand:

Also stealing my own words is the mark of an incompetent debater (like you'd have used driveling if I ahdn't used it in my last post).

Everyone who can read knows that you used this word before. That I used your word is a mark that I haven’t the best vocabulary in English and it is easier for me to use the same words because I think it fits you more than me.

For sure your way of expressing with “driveling” is a mark of an incompetent debater (sorry for stealing your words, but I see it this way)

[OldSnake]

@Vanessa:

Never use the anime to prove anything, especially in the manga section. It holds no weight in a discussion here no matter how much you believe it to do so.

16 characters of Pwnage. /end spam

[TLC]

@Besserwisser:

Maybe the interpretation from the Anime is right but I will never acknowledge the Anime as clear evidence.ġ/quoteħ

So you're an idiot who can't admit he was wrong.

@Besserwisser:

Everyone who can read knows that you used this word before. That I used your word is a mark that I haven’t the best vocabulary in English and it is easier for me to use the same words because I think it fits you more than me.

Then use a simpler word like "talking" or "what are you on about". Using fancy words that you used from your opponent because you think it makes you look smarter makes you even more of an idiot.

[Vanessa]

@Thousand:

The point of the discussion is the anime's worth in elucidating certain ON-PANEL scenes not unscripted plot points.

Also the notion that the animation crew consists of a bunch of monkeys who fling around with the script of a chapter without any consideration of the events in the perspective of the author is retarded.

That doesn't matter.

Regardless of whatever it's being used for, the anime is not the original source so it cannot be used as a legitimate base in an argument concerning events that happen in the manga(said original source).

No amount of insults you hurl at someone will change that.

[OldSnake]

@Thousand:

@Besserwisser:

Maybe the interpretation from the Anime is right but I will never acknowledge the Anime as clear evidence.ġ/quoteħ

So you're an idiot who can't admit he was wrong.

Then use a simpler word like "talking" or "what are you on about". Using fancy words that you used from your opponent because you think it makes you look smarter makes you even more of an idiot.

Why so serious?

Anyway Kuma owned the strawhats point blank. The end.

[TLC]

@Vanessa:

That doesn't matter.

Regardless of whatever it's being used for, the anime is not the original source so it cannot be used as a legitimate base in an argument concerning events that happen in the manga(said original source).

I think the fact that the author himself has VERY close ties to the animation company has great legitimacy for such a conjecture. I think it's silly to make a mass blanket "nothing in the anime is right no matter how much sense and how close to the manga it is" just because it's not the original source. That's like claiming a rewrite of an author's book with the original author's help is invalid.

Edit: Eh, where did I insult you? I insulted the notion, I have great respect for you, you're one of the calm, collected members with a good head on her shoulders.

[Besserwisser]

@Thousand:

So you're an idiot who can't admit he was wrong.

Then use a simpler word like "talking" or "what are you on about". Using fancy words that you used from your opponent because you think it makes you look smarter makes you even more of an idiot.

You’re an Idiot, easy enough? :getlost:

[TLC]

@OldSnake:

Why so serious?

Anyway Kuma owned the strawhats point blank. The end.

You know, this post makes me realize how far off-topic we've side-tracked. I mean wtf happened?

[wolfwood]

So where did notion that Oda reviews everything that the animation team puts out come from? Did he mention it in a SBS or something. Right of the bat id assume that he's far to busy to concern himself with stuff like that.

[Vanessa]

@Thousand:

I think the fact that the author himself has VERY close ties to the animation company has great legitimacy for such a conjecture.

You can think it all you want. However it doesn't make it true.

I think it's silly to make a mass blanket "nothing in the anime is right no matter how much sense and how close to the manga it is" just because it's not the original source.

Unfortunately for you it does in fact work that way.

The anime adaptation for Monster is pretty much a panel by panel version of the comic, but I would never use it as proof in a discussion concerning things that happened.

Do you know why? Because it's not the original source.

That's like claiming a rewrite of an author's book with the original author's help is invalid.

Unless said author states that rewrite completely retcons the original work then yes it is invalid.

Edit: Eh, where did I insult you? I insulted the notion, I have great respect for you, you're one of the calm, collected members with a good head on her shoulders.

I'm not talking about me.

[TLC]

@wolfwood:

So where did notion that Oda reviews everything that the animation team puts out come from? Did he mention it in a SBS or something. Right of the bat id assume that he's far to busy to concern himself with stuff like that.

I'm sure it's not above the anime company to give him a call and ask whether this is so and so.

[UsoppSpell]

@SunWuKong:

no, he won't…so stop trying to be funny...:getlost:

but i have to agree with Thousand Lion-chan here...i just started to watch the anime (since the middle of TB) and till now the anime was pretty near to the manga. And A LOT of things that i didn't notice in the manga became clear in the anime.

edit: what i mean is that in the anime it is easier to focus on one picture at a time and with that the succession or some details (which you didn't noticed in the manga) or even some jokes are much clearer.

I agree with this. Sometimes it remains very faithful. And I also agree that sometimes it makes things clearer. My point is that sometimes those "clarifications" make for deviations from what was actually meant. These small additions, change the significance of certain sequences. For example, before Kizaru kicks Urouge, in the manga, he smiles fearlessly. In the anime, he is surprised and scared. If there was a discussion on whether Urouge is fearless and awesome, then utilizing one or the other as evidence would yield significantly different results. This example changes significance. The canon is the manga, where Urouge sees Kizaru, smiles, and is kicked away.

Another example currently in discussion, is that Kizaru shoots several beams at Basil's straw form, and then all the rest of his voodo dolls/men fall off. This happens in the anime, but not in the manga. This suggests that Kizaru had a quantifiable knowledge of how much power was left on Hawkins, something that neither he nor we, the reader had. We were not aware that Hawkins had lost all of his power, we were only told that his nakama were worried for him, by no means an indicative that he was about to die. The anime also draws droplets of sweat on his straw skin. Now that is a sign that he is cornered and scared as well. Now there is a lot of data here that wasn't present in the Manga, where all the panel showed was a Basil covering his eyes and looking serious. Now in the manga you are led to think that perhaps he still can do something about it because he is just looking serious, while in the anime he looks totally screwed.

In the space of 2 minutes, these two differences occur. Now sure, they are relatively small, but they change meaning. In discussions like the ones in these forums, the anime is not used exactly because of this. If your nitpicking, then you will find differences riddled all over that actually change meaning. And lord knows forum discussions pick nits. Hell, I just picked two.

This is why I believe, and so do most as well, that the manga is the only reliable source of evidence for arguments or speculations on the manga.

@Thousand:

I'm sure it's not above the anime company to give him a call and ask whether this is so and so.

Oh and yes, it is comforting to see that the basis of your ENTIRE ARGUMENT'S DEFENCE, which was always that the animators asked the author, Oda, is a claim based on an assumption. NICE.