I'm simply countering your ridiculous statement that they were lucky Moria fell where he did and that Moria underestimated Luffy and lost ONLY due to those reasons. It's simply not true. We've seen Luffy do the impossible. We've seen him lift, throw, and break things Superman would have trouble with and here you are trying to convince me that Spider Monkey's (like what, 5 of them?) could hold Luffy down if he was really serious. I give you this to chew on: Not Serious Luffy != Serious Luffy
Luffy didn't even know what the hell the Spider Monkey's were, are you telling me that he has the ability to know everything and everyone with their powers around them?
Serious or not, Spider Monkey's can bust someone in less than one second.
Unless he has more weight while serious, which I seriously doubt, it makes no difference.
Ohhh!!! I see. Slams fist in palm So there's absolutely not a single spec of shade on the entire island? As if the island is so big Moria could
really escape forever, especially now that he is out of resources.
Forever? What do you mean forever? 10 minutes? Wow, its really hard for Moria to run from them for 10 minutes, specially after doing it with Luffy.
And what about shade?
Sun tends to change from morning to midnight, they can't be in that same post where they were for 24 hours or they will die.
And if they go away from their post, they will die.
I have no idea what you are saying. But! Fact: Moria ran away from the New World (Kaidou). Fact: Luffy said he wouldn't give up regardless of the dangers. Fact: Moria had all the advantages and still lost to Luffy.
I meant we would never know the speed of the Shadows, thus knowing if it can go in time with Gear 2.
Fact: Luffy would die/give up if he fought Kaidou as he is now.
Fact: He may not give up, but he can die or be repelled far away.
Fact: Moria had natural advantage and lost due to luck.
Stop! Right there. You already assent to the proposition that Moria had all the advantages. Yet, who lost? So on equal footing, who would have their asses handed to them?
The point is that Moria underestimated Luffy.
If Moria didn't underestimate Luffy, with advantages or not, he would have won…
@Urouge:
The biggest discrepency I usually see in these threads are whether to compare captains or to compare crews. A crew of a Yonkou (captain included), is an elite force in the world. The Shichibukai that we've seen may be able to stand toe to toe with a Yonkou individually (maybe not, we don't know), but when you factor in their nakama the story changes in a hurry.
Luffy has incredible nakama, and because of that the Mugiwara crew is capable of taking down a Shichibukai crew. Nakama are the driving theme of One Piece, so an argument will change drastically depending on if you include them or not.
If you notice, every battle between the SH's and the enemy Crew/Organization has always been between Luffy and the boss.
If Luffy loses, everyone else dies too.
@fedcom:
But the Luffy IS stronger than some of the Shichibukais. He beat 2 of them.
1. Luffy vs Crocodile: Yes, its true that Croc almost killed Luffy twice. But he just left him there and assumed that Luffy would die. This is Crocodile's character flaw and it caused him to lose the battle. It was a weakness expoited by Luffy, just like how many villains throughout the series have exploited Luffy's stupidity.
So…
Luffy kicks Enel's ass, the ship falls 100000 meters, Luffy goes away, Enel has Nami helping Enel to come back, Enel fights with Luffy again and kills him.
HURR DURR... ITS OBVIOUSLY LUFFY'S FAULT
By underestimating, I didn't mean exact Underestimation, the fact is that Luffy would've died if he wasn't lucky.
You could just ignorantly wave this away as 'luck' but then many aspects of the fight could be waved away as luck. It was 'luck' that their battle took place on a desert. It was 'luck' that Crocodile managed to eat such a hax devil fruit. /sarcasm
I agree with the desert part, it was lucky for them to meet at that place, because he COULD'VE found Crocodile in any other place, but had the bad luck of finding him in the desert.
However, the battle could be in any situation, that Crocodile could do 98% the attacks he did in the desert.
2. Moria vs Luffy: First of, if Luffy and Moria were to fight on a 1 on 1 with no outside help, Luffy would devour him. If Luffy had gone to Gear 2nd in their 2nd encounter, Moria would have been done for and the arc would have been a great deal shorter.
Funny, we saw Luffy fighting Moria 1 on 1, yet I don't remember him being devoured, in fact, I remember Moria mocking him.
Oh well, must be my imagination…
But both recieved help from their respective allies and Luffy won in the end. if Moria chose not to run away and let the Straw Hats die, its his own fault. Luffy still beat him and proved that he is STRONGER than Moria.
But that's the argument I've been using.
If for example, Luffy found Moria in that place, and Moria wouldn't underestimate him, He wouldn't care about honor, he would've let him die.
My point is that Luffy only won against the Shichibukai's due to luck and underestimation from them.
If they faced using pure power and DF ability, Moria and Crocodile WOULD'VE WON!!!
It seems you joined the conversation later, and didn't see how this started.
This is not just a normal supernova we're talking about, this is the future Pirate King. Of course he would be able to beat some worthless Shichibukai down the road.
HURRRRR, he's a Future Pirate King, so he can enter in Whitebeard's ship and defeat him.
In fact, he can fight Kizaru and kill him easily, because he's the future Pirate King.
Amirite? Oh wait, I'm not right…
He will have the power of the Pirate King in the end of the series, and of course, in the end of the series, he'l be much more powerful than Crocodile and Moria together, but now he's just a rookie, while Crocodile and Moria were Shichibukai's.
How is this hard to understand?
@brennen.exe:
Lovely. Completely ignore my other post.
So? Who CARES. If Enel became a pirate and started sailing at the entrance of Grand Line he would be a Rookie too. Are you saying that if you are called a Rookie you have a magic strength limiter bestowed upon you? "Rookie" just means new pirate. Big deal. Sure sounds like you think all the Shichibukai have the same level of strength too, but I seem to recall Luffy knocking out both Moria AND Crocodile, yet despite his growth since then he couldn't lay a finger on Kuma recently. What about Mihawk? Blackbeard? They must all be the same strength too, right? WRONG. They differ. Luffy's bounty – for example -- is much higher than Croc's was, and even if Croc's doubled (as was said in an SBS) it would still be below Luffy. The World Government / Marines obvioulsy see Luffy as a greater threat than Crocodile, for one reason or another. Can't really argue with that. So why is it so hard to believe that Luffy is stronger than Croc? Luffy has easily doubled in strength since he fought Croc, AND he knows Croc's weakness. Why would he not be able to defeat him (again) now? If he could defeat (again) now, then wouldn't he be stronger than (at least) one Shichibukai?
I talk about Rookie in strenght too.
Boa was a rookie Pirate, yet she turned a Shichibukai very soon.
She's not a rookie anymore, and she managed to turn a Non-Rookie earlier than Luffy did.
Luffy is nothing in the Pirate World yet, he's just something everyone's curious about, not really something like a Shichibukai, Younkou, etc, etc.
And I agree that the Shichibukai's differ.
But having Crocodile weaker than a Rookie is stupid, even if he's the weaker Shichibukai.
The World Government had many to choose from, why would it choose a guy who can be defeated by Luffy?
No. Rayleigh aimed it. He intentionally left the Strawhats out. Remember, he reads the news and could see who was in the room. He CLEARLY comments on how he didn't realize Kidd's crew and Law's crew were just there to enjoy the show and that he was sorry for including them in the blast, then commends them for resisting it. If he was just blasting it out at random, that statement would be beyond pointless.
Ah, thanks god then, I never hoped Usopp to be at the same level as the other SH's at ALL!
@Captain:
The Shichibukai are, to use a phrase I hate, "hax," pure and simple. Crocodile had to be handicapped to rank even with Luffy (and quite a huge handicap; not using his main power offensively), and Moria had to be fought by the entire Strawhat crew (leaving them all battered and broken afterward. Oh, yeah, and he got back up after being hit by a Nightmare Luffy Storm). These guys are ludicrously powerful. Pretty much above everyone who isn't an Admiral or one of the 4 Kings, give or take a few no-name powerhouses (i.e. Enel). In fact, that's the point, and that's why it's such a big deal when they're the enemy.
EXACTLY!!!
GODAMN, CAPTAIN, YOU'RE THE BEST MEMBER EVAH!!!
Also, there's somethings I didn't think of yet, nice thought…
(Shall use those arguments, altough it is getting a little Overkill)
Oh, and that is also why Whitebeard is sooooo fucked…
This is where I don't agree.
We don't know the full power of Whitebeard.
For all we know, he could touch his moustache, and all the Shichibukai's except BB and Mihawk would explode.
@onemoment:
Question though. What if Crocodile being a rival to Luffy isn't part of the story anymore?
Doesn't really matter.
Oda will make clear the following:
-Crocodile was much more powerful than Luffy.
At the end of the series:
-Crocodile can't touch Luffy.
I mean, Buggy was Luffy's first enemy, and though he certainly has new tricks, none of them change that he's no match for Luffy after how stronger he had gotten. In fact, Buggy and all of Luffy's jail crew has been on the butt end of many jokes involving their relative weakness. Even Mr. 2, despite a lot of asskicking is also solidly losing. It's kind of depressing…
You're comparing a guy who got defeated by Luffy in 3 minutes in a comical manner to a guy who almost killed Luffy 2 times and mocked him all the match.
How are we even comparing Buggy and Crocodile in the first place makes me laugh.
But the point of all that is, when and if Luffy and Croc meet again, what if Croc isn't meant to be a match for Luffy? What if, Croc just does something that resolves his story–whatever it is is your guess. But, characters can be awesome and influential to the story without being the most powerful. Mr. 2 is a great and recent example of that.
That would be actually pretty cool, but what does that have to do with anything?
Luffy might not have a reason to fight Crocodile, and Crocodile might not want to have a rematch because:
-It doesn't matter anymore.
-It could wreck his plan.
Etc…
The fact is that at the moment, Crocodile is still more powerful than Luffy (I believe its not by much now, but still...) and that soon, Luffy will be much better.
Also…I'm really shaking my head at that "supply of liquid" line. Luffy just needs blood. That is all, and Luffy proved in chapter 538 that he's got plenty of that, and he already apparently had enough back then.
Agreed, (time to use Captain's arguments), however, that only matters deffensively, and Crocodile can still attack Luffy with Desert Spada, etc.
Also, he can suck the blood too.
Either way though, after beating two shichibukai doesn't a coincidence become a pattern? Why does Luffy (and any of the supernova) have to be just rookie's who are no match for these guys? Isn't it more fair to call the supernova the "challengers" and the World Powers the "champions" of this age? The supernova at least have a shot.
But the Supernova's are weaker than most of the guys in the New World, they're only the ones who have the most chances to enter in the New World and survive there.
If the Supernova's are below most of the New World, and they can have a chance with ANY of the Shichibukai's…
Wouldn't the Shichibukai's be fucking screwed?
@Captain:
Doubt that Crocodile will just be resolved and go away. Hell, the guy's rotting in jail and he's still licking his lips at the thought of kicking Whitebeard's ass. He's a megalomaniac with aspirations of world domination. Not really the type to go quietly into that good night.
Luffy doesn't really care a lot at Whitebeard at the moment.
I agree that he'l be part of something huge later, but it doesn't mean it has to do anything with Luffy directly.
Also, using one's blood really isn't the first option, or the one you particularly want to go to. Especially after what just happened to him. Plus, it seems very, very silly for Luffy to be face to face with a guy, and immediately go "crap, I need some razors! Cut me, Mick! Someone cut me! A few on the fists and chest should be good!"
Actually, in that situation, Luffy would most likely punch the walls or something to have blood on his fists.
We all know how stubborn Luffy is.
The point is Crocodile is not an easy man to fight against. And I'm not denying Luffy's strong, or special, or anything like that. Just that, in terms of raw power and ability (not factoring in tenacity and, of course, the Almighty Plot), Luffy's nowhere near the (male) Warlords.
Co-signed
@brennen.exe:
[Seven Armed Seas]
[Gecko Moria]
[Former Bounty: 320 Million Berries]
[Motto: Solving Problems Through Other People]
[Favorite Words: "You do it"]
Moria: Hey. Here you are. You need to make me Pirate King already!!!
That doesn't mean jack shit.
Maybe he grew his Shadow abilities while making Zombies.
Again, doesn't mean JACK shit.
@Urouge:
As for the Shichibukai having no rivals outside of the Admirals and the Yonkou, I have to disagree. The example I'll use is the only Yonkou crew member we've seen in action, Luffy's brother Ace. He's not even the first mate on WB's crew, but isn't it fairly obvious that he could stand toe to toe with a Shichibukai? BB being the exception, not the standard.
There is one mistake in your post even though I agree with you:
Technically, Ace is the Second Commandant of Whitebeard's crew, a Younkou, so obviously, by Younkou, we also meant the Vice-Chief, etc.
But I agree with you, I believe there are pirates out there that can defeat the Shichibukai's.
Just not too many and a random guy that comes out of nowhere and has already super strenght.
@barkadat3p:
and I suppose you don't count being in the desert as help to Crocodile or using Oz as a help to Moria. In fact the villains always seem to have the home court advantage don't they…
Yes, Crocodile had the advantage of the Desert, but he didn't actually USE the advantage, he just played around with Luffy, even putting 3 minutes in the counter. And even then, he kicked Luffy's ass, and he needed Robin to survive.
Crocodile has more raw power than Luffy??? lol what makes him strong is how he utilizes his DF especially that reflex phasing of his plus his cunning mind but physical abilities…please:getlost:
Agreed.
@chilindrino:
to be a 100% honest, if croc could use his sand powers like Gaara he would be twice as cool
(please dont kill me, i dont like naruto either, but even the most boring swamps have some pretty cool crocodiles _)
Someone bring up the shotgun…
@123:
I find it hard to guage whos the stronger one between Moria and Luffy, since they didnt really use what they all have against each other, i think thats the way Oda wants it done;without any clear indication. ( Im more in favour of Moria though) I'm more interested in Moria's real ability when Moria was up against Kaidou, Moria wouldn't have access to zombies and i highly doubt if he keeps pumping himself with shadows. Those are the abilities which allowed Moria to at least fight with Kaidou, hopefully the war will show us more of his abilities.
The reason why Oda did that is exactly because if they used all their abilities, Moria would've won.
Its exactly why Oda added so many things like Oz and Nightmare Luffy, etc, to give a chance to Luffy.
@chilindrino:
oh definitely, i think moria could kick ass if he wasnt trying out a new toy (oz) just imagine if you could control your shadow and other peoples shadows. that would be fun
Well, altough I do agree that he has probably more powers than what he showed us (otherwise he wouldn't ever be able to fight against Kaidou), we can't base ourselves on pure speculation, bro.
@brennen.exe:
…k? Moria picked Luffy for a reason. That reason would be fighting ability. He had to choose one person to go in his secret weapon that he would use to conquer the New World. Oz was 'created' using Luffy's abilities (which include speed) for a reason, and I assure you that reason had something to do with Luffy's threat and status, which Moria recognized. Now, I won't go into how pathetic that idea was (for Moria), given what happened and what other characters are capable of in the Grand Line, but the point being Moria didn't take out any other the Strawhats (well, kind of Robin) without the help of Oz. Not saying he couldn't have, but without Oz, versus the entire crew more or less…? Highly doubt it.
Remember that Moria didn't know nothing about Luffy besides the fact that he had 300 Belis on the bounty.
And why do you doubt it?
If he managed to survive Nightmare Luffy and still show himself that he's pretty powerful, he can survive pretty much anything.
He just avoided casually everything the SH's gave them until he saw Luffy using 100 shadows, getting angry and then showing that he can make 1000 SHADOWS himself, which was the reason of his doom, along with the lucky "Falling right on the mast" thing.
@Thousand:
I'll have to disagree with this brennen, I don't think anyone can aim Haki like that. Rayleigh just let out a blast and all those people who coud resi it resited it including Usopp.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/504/12/
And it doesn't look like he's apologizing here neither the page before.
Usopp is not powerful enough to survive Rayleigh's haki.
Sorry bro, I just don't believe that theory.
@Ryuksgelus:
If Moria can get up after multiple blows from Nightmare Luffy, someone with strikes more powerful than the Giganto Pistol that crippled Lucci through Tekkai, what makes you think Gear 2 punches would do severe damage to Moria?
Again, you bring up points I never thought of before.
Holy shit, this dude's amazing.
Say stronger than Gear 3rd because Oz was just a permanent Gear 3 Luffy and N.Luffy blocked a rifle with one hand without budging. Clearly showing the kind of power in the arms that delievered a Hammer straight to Moria's face, and the sebsequent blows from the Storm. Moria's base abilities are really underestimated around here.
Exactly…
Sometimes, I just want Oda to write clearly in every page that Moria would be able to defeat Luffy, and not just show it through.
@onemoment:
Hey, didn't Moria take a bunch of Gear 2 strikes in Nightmare form? Why would we assume Moria can take those hits so well in his normal form when they nearly moved him when he weight several tons? They clearly did damage to him, imagine a jet bazooka on a normal sized Moria–it's probably send him flying quite a few feet.
EXACTLY, a giant got owned, yet Moria got some in the face and got up normally.
You're helping us, bro.
I get that Nightmare Luffy's storm was powerful, but isn't it safe to assume Luffy could still do the same amount of damage, in at least a little more time?
Nightmare Luffy is faster than Luffy and more powerful.
I don't think increased stamina would have helped against Luffy. If anything it would make the battle longer. Moria really doesn't have a lot of moves that can kill Luffy outside of shadow stealing, and with Luffy's track record of avoiding death I don't think that would happen.
We don't know that, my friend…
@fedcom:
You forgot that Luffy DID beat Moria using Gear 2nd and Gear 3rd. All while Moria had a 1000 shadows in him. So gear 2nd punches DO work on him. Especially on a Moria without the ridiculous power up.
Except his Power-Up also made him a lot weaker in resistance.
Its like Gear 2 Extreme, Luffy might be very powerful with it, but he is easily defeated and dies easily.
@SunWuKong:
well, all those who say that luffy is stronger than croc and moria, must also admit that luffy is pretty near yonkou level. he may even be equal to kaidou. And people like kizaru, aokiji, megellan, etc would all rip the yonkou or alike up.
(does that sound right?!)
This is not exactly a Vertical Top Tier.
There are obvious some pirates out there capable of destroying Crocodile, and maybe even Mihawk.
But its not THAT easy, so easy that we have a Rookie coming from nowhere and defeating them without luck.
@Phoenix:
Luffy isn't Yonkou or Admiral level yet. He's more Rear/Vice Admiral, low/mid tier Schichibukai level.
HOLY SHIT, WHAT?
Yeah, right, he's really like Garp.
Holy shit, that's just so stupid it makes me baffled over how much you overrate Luffy.
~@Jdanzi:
Well, its quite clear that some shichibukai are stronger than others, I think each admiral would easily deal with croc and possibly moria whereas a stronger shichikukai, such as blackbeard would give a better fight.
Of course, the point is that Crocodile and Moria are still PART OF THE SEVEN WARRIORS THE GOVERNMENT CHOSEN.
@Captain:
That's not "handwaving", that's just how it works. I'm not theorizing here in the sense that APers like to do. I'm not doing some super-serious guesswork and near-fanfiction scenarios, I'm saying that if these two fight again, Crocodile will have to have some new attacks/tricks/whatever, otherwise the fight will be boring.
You're giving more reasons why Crocodile and Luffy will probably not fight again, lol.
@onemoment:
This quote reminds me of last page's argument. Moria is most likely not of equal strength to Kaidou. People need to remember Moria himself said he lost to Kaidou. It was a few chapters later that a man, who could not have possibly seen Moria vs. Kaidou, said the two fought equally. Moria's words and actions suggest Kaidou is superior to him. For example, his attempts are building an unkillable army, or his comments on how he was "too confident in his abilities." With Kaidou, Moria has no confidence in his strength, so I doubt he wants a straight one on one fight with Kaidou again.
Exactly, but he had a chance to fight "Equally" before losing, while Luffy lost with Kizaru, which has difficulty dealing with the Younkou's…
See where I'm going?
It doesn't really serve the story to have Kaidou equal to a man who Luffy beat not too long ago. Also, look at the current storyline. Kaidou tried to attack Whitebeard, but Shanks intercepted it. Now, I'd hope it'd make sense that, Moria can't be a match for Shanks or Whitebeard. If this is true, then Kaidou is going to be killed before we see him in the Grandline. Luffy is no match for Shanks, but he's a match for Moria. If Moria is equal to Kaidou, then Kaidou shouldn't be a match for Shanks.
You're helping us, bro.
MORIA IS POWERFUL, he just had bad luck and underestimated Luffy.
@SunWuKong:
what i was thinking is that if moria and kaidou were about the same level (which was stated in the manga),
and luffy has beaten moria, than luffy has to be about the level of kaidou. And now kaidou has threaten whitebeard and is facing shanks, who interfered. with that we can assume that kaidou is not weak and can fight whitebeard (in a weakened state) or shanks.
so:
moria ≦ kaidou
moria < luffy that's why: luffy = kaidou (yonkou)
luffy <<<< kizaru,megellan
kaidou <<<< kizaru, magellan
if that's the case than the yonkou are pretty damn weak.
Exactly, which means Moria is more powerful than Luffy._