That's why i wrote:
I'm also wondering if there is another definition to evil. A more abstract one not based on what most of the people out there think.
Doubt it. Evil (and good) has always been a concept invented by humans. There's no such thing as morality in nature.
Then cut the double standard bullshit and learn to apply it to not just one group and instead do it for everyone.
Otherwise you're just further affirming your hypocrisy.
I don't want to butt-in, but the WG is one party and the pirates are are separate from one another. I don't see how its a double standard.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Pirates are pirates. We can't look at "Pirates" as a whole…they're individuals. Some are evil like Kuro, Krieg, Arlong, Blackbeard, or Kidd...some are just like Luffy, Whitebeard, Shanks, etc.
I wouldnt say some as much as very very few are like Luffy.
As i said way back in the impel down thread i counted the actual number of pirate crews that could be considered to be fairly decent. I do belive it was out of 62 crews 7 of them were somewhat "nice" and two of those were things like the Usopp pirates i.e. kids playing pirate. And those 5 "good" pirates still are like Whitebeard and Roger, willing to kill anyone who crosses them. So i dont think its that far of to generalize and say that pirates are well piratey:ninja:
I think I'm going to withdraw from this conversation as we will never agree. We have COMPLETELY different reads on One Piece - the very nature of the story, the characters, and the hints Oda's giving us about where things are going.
I think he's made it painfully obvious that while there are many good marines, the very leaders of the World Government are as corrupt and as evil as they come.
After all this is a WORLD GOVERNMENT…that should send up red flags of corruption....hello, Brave New World!
Anyway, I view Dragon as being a hero in the future, and the Tenryuubito, and Gorousei as villains.
Tell me, where do you see things going? Luffy dying? No, then One Piece would not be a story worth telling...if the second pirate king meets the same fate as the first, it might as well have been the story of Gol D. Roger. Also this is a shonen where important characters, let alone the main characters RARELY die.
How can going to such lengths as hunting down an 8 year old girl, killing researches, utilizing CP9, etc. be justified in order to hide something....what possible reasoning could there be to hide the TRUE HISTORY, the void century in which the World Gov. rose to power....it's not at all significant Gol D. Roger knew this history and hid it on Raftel? The conversation between Robin and Rayleigh just means nothing? Kuma, Ivankov, and Dragon all being Revolutionaries means nothing? The corruption seen at the highest levels of the World Gov. (ie Akainu, the Gorousei, the Celestial Dragons, The Buster Call, CP9, Spandam, The shichibukai, etc.) are actually justifiable, but the actions of other pirates can nullify anything the Straw Hats do because they're a collective group of "pirates".
A World Government can NEVER be a good thing. Look at the beuracracy and corruption you see at a local level, then the state level, the federal level is ridiculously corrupt, and then if you add another layer....well what freedoms are left?
What makes Luffy the biggest threat is that he's made allies around the entire world, and if he issued a call to action as a second Pirate King, countries like Alabasta etc. would join him.
It's not about a sense of World Justice for Luffy....but an oppressive World Gov. hurts everyone close to him, there is a distinct possibility the True History is related to the Will of D., which is personal to Luffy...there are so many reasons he would stand up to an unjust world gov.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
Umm if Whitebeard was such an indescriminate killer, mind explaining what happened last chapter?
Whitebeard doesn't kill people who cross him. He wanted Blackbeard to die because Blackbeard murdered one of his crew mates.
As Whitebeard says, "You can't walk through this world without morality"….that says alot about his character.
I also don't buy the CRAP that all morality is relative, that there is no right and wrong and that it's all relative. I think there is definite right and wrong and no amount of spin you put on some things.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Anyway, I view Dragon as being a hero in the future, and the Tenryuubito, and Gorousei as villains.
Im not going to say anything for the Nobles, but if you think the elder stars are going to be your saturday morning cartoon villains then i think you are sorely underestimating Oda as an author.
Tell me, where do you see things going? Luffy dying? No, then One Piece would not be a story worth telling…if the second pirate king meets the same fate as the first, it might as well have been the story of Gol D. Roger. Also this is a shonen where important characters, let alone the main characters RARELY die.
Him being executed at the end is a possibility, not what i hope is gonna happen but still its not that unlikely.
it's not at all significant Gol D. Roger knew this history and hid it on Raftel?
He did what now?
The conversation between Robin and Rayleigh just means nothing?
The conversation betwenn them actualy contradicts your view of the elder stars being nothing but evil. That conversation is probably the best argument for them being in the gray.
Kuma, Ivankov, and Dragon all being Revolutionaries means nothing?
Not really, care to explain why just those three being revolutionaries is something mindblowing?
As for Whitebeard, just look at what happend to Ace when he called him out. Having Thatch i belive assure him that his crew is not dead has to indicate what usualy happens when you fight him. Or the iron rule if you hurt one of my men you are as good as dead. As i said if you cross him he has no qualms about killing you, and probably anyone who harbors or sides with you and why should he he's a god damn pirate after all.
Well you're arguing that the Revolutionaries are evil, but the three we've seen have all saved Luffy's life.
Kuma went out of his way to save the Straw Hat Pirates on Sabaody Archipelago and seemed to indicate this to Rayleigh.
Ivankov has been waiting for years in Impel Down for something big to happen and now he breaks out…he also saved Luffy's life.
The very lengths the World Government will go to for the sake of hiding this True History is evidence enough this is powerful information they're hiding.
I'm not seeing any evidence for evil.in the Revolutionaries.
Gol D. Roger knew the True History and hid it on Raftel, then intentionally sent pirates all over the world after his treasure at Raftel with his final words....doesn't that indicate he wants his successor to inherit the True History?
Given that Shanks, Kaidou, Whitebeard etc. have yet to claim the title of Pirate King, it would seem that either none of them have yet managed to find / land at Raftel, or that Roger's "treasure" is not something that can be claimed.
I tend to think it's the former. In chapter one hundred Dragon mentions, "These things cannot be stopped. An inherited strength of will, one's dreams, the ebb and flow of the ages, as long as people hunger for freedom these things will exist."
Now we know Oda went out of his way to make this chapter 100, even skipping over Usopp's side story in Logue Town that became anime only (Daddy the Father). This seems to indicate he vies this as a very important chapter. This is the chapter where Dragon is introduced.
A world "revolution" of sorts to overthrow this force is not unjust. This wouoldn't throw the world into chaos....the independance of countries is not a bad thing. If there were one unifying government binding the entire World, I know for sure we'd loose a lot of our liberties. Let's take Alabasta, for example. If the World Gov. is overthrown, the country won't be left in chaos, Cobra will still be king, he just won't answere to the higher authority of the World GOvernment.
If those who serve True Justice split from those who follow Absolute Justice, only those who are evil and corrupt will be left on the side of the World Government.
Saturday Morning Cartoon villains? Hardly. Was Palpatine not the leader of the Galactic Empire? Just because a lot of kids like One Piece, that doesn't mean it's villains can't have meaning and some depth.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Well you're arguing that the Revolutionaries are evil
I do what now? Where ever did you get that idea from.
Im always arguing for the expulsion of labels like good or bad, its all gray baby.
The very lengths the World Government will go to for the sake of hiding this True History is evidence enough this is powerful information they're hiding.
Agreed, but the diffrence is i dont just assume that it's all a part of their evil master plan.
But might rather be a part of something that goes beyond those labels.
Gol D. Roger knew the True History and hid it on Raftel, then intentionally sent pirates all over the world after his treasure at Raftel with his final words….doesn't that indicate he wants his successor to inherit the True History?
Except this is the first time im hearing anything about him hiding the true history there.
Could be a possibility sure, but we dont know
A world "revolution" of sorts to overthrow this force is not unjust.
For a guy who considers Akainu to be evil you sure think alot like him, the means dont matter as long as i have a noble goal. So if i have to take each and every country by the sword to free them then so be it is that what you're saying?
Or am i misunderstanding you?
Saturday Morning Cartoon villains? Hardly. Was Palpatine not the leader of the Galactic Empire? Just because a lot of kids like One Piece, that doesn't mean it's villains can't have meaning and some depth.
The Empire in star wars had any sort of depth?
Like i said if you think that's as far as Oda goes as an author then i guess we just cant see eye to eye on this.
How do I think like Akainu? Akainu believes in Absolute Justice, killing even marines. Using ANY means to ultimately achieve a noble end goal.
I'm not saying the Empire had depth, just that ceretainly a government can be an evil force in a work of fiction even if it's aimed at kids.
I simply think that "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
How do I think like Akainu? Akainu believes in Absolute Justice, killing even marines. Using ANY means to ultimately achieve a noble end goal.
He belives that there is a definite good and evil for one, and that the marines are fighting for the good. And that any means they take agains the defined evil is justfied since they are "evil". And any civilian casulties or military loses that may occour (for instance in a revolution) are worth it as long as its for the "good".
Sounds alot like what as i understand it you're arguing for doesnt it? He's sure as hell not into seeing any kind of gray scale.
Having a sense of morality does not immediately imply I am like Akainu. I believe there is definite good and evil because I believe in God. I don't believe humans decide what is right and wrong, I believe our creator is the one who decides.
Sure there are "gray" areas because it's not up to us to decide what is right or wrong.
Akainu's philosophy is not the same as simply believing in right and wrong. Heck, Captain Smoker believes in right and wrong, but he won't kill other marines.
You're warping a simple belief in good and evil. I don't feel ends justify evil means to obtaint hem.
But you're also warping every war, everything a person can do to overthrow oppression, to fit under "The ends justify the means".
We don't know that the Revolutionaries have forcibly started the Revolution…what if they simply provided those countries with information about what the World Government is really doing, what they've been hiding, etc....if they choose to stand up for their own rights how are they any different than the United States breaking free from Great Brittain?
What I'm saying is absolutely nothing like Akainu. Akainu believes in doing evil for the sake of good. I simply believe that true morality exists, that there is ultimate justice, not at the hands of man, but at the mercy of a God who sacraficed himself for our forgiveness.
I also believe the poor man wants to be rich, the rich man wants to be king, and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything. For as complicated as many authors make this, Bruce Springsteen could condense it into a single line haha.
When you're dealing with a WORLD GOVERNMENT, you're dealing with corruption, without a doubt. There is no way a political body could dominate the entire world without using unjust means.
Standing up for your own freedoms, and the freedoms of others, idealy without violence like Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King is not evil, and does not in any way relate to "end justify the means". But as was the case in our own revolution from Great Brittain, the simple use of force does not mean "ends justify the means"...it's no different than standing up to Crocodile for the sake of Vivi. Luffy wanted justice for Vivi so he fought Crocodile...if you say I think like Akainu, by that logic so did Luffy because he used the unjust means of violence to accomplish something he saw as right....I don't feel that way, but if you're saying I'm Akainu, it would follow the same logic.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Sure there are "gray" areas because it's not up to us to decide what is right or wrong.
I beg to differ, We are the only ones who can decide what's right and wrong.
Akainu's philosophy is not the same as simply believing in right and wrong. Heck, Captain Smoker believes in right and wrong, but he won't kill other marines.
Smoker is so much more in the gray zone. As he's shown time and time again.
Akainu is the man who has good and evil strictly defined, they cant be changed and there is no one who isnt either good or bad.
You're warping a simple belief in good and evil. I don't feel ends justify evil means to obtaint hem.
Allright then so you do agree that a bloody revolution cant be considered to be purely "good" act no matter what benefits it could bring then?
But you're also warping every war, everything a person can do to overthrow oppression, to fit under "The ends justify the means".
Am i now? Who is good is only decided by who won, and honestly can any war as an action ever be considerd to be "good".
We don't know that the Revolutionaries have forcibly started the Revolution…what if they simply provided those countries with information about what the World Government is really doing, what they've been hiding, etc
Only thing we know is that they conquer country after country. And they refer to it as a war. And even if they did do what you suggest there would certainly be groups of citizens siding with the goverment who would have to be "eliminated" to secure the revolution.
What I'm saying is absolutely nothing like Akainu. Akainu believes in doing evil for the sake of good.
Akainu doesnt belive what he does is evil, so saying that he belives in doing evil for the sake of good isnt correct.
the simple use of force does not mean "ends justify the means"…it's no different than standing up to Crocodile for the sake of Vivi. Luffy wanted justice for Vivi so he fought Crocodile
…if you say I think like Akainu, by that logic so did Luffy because he used the unjust means of violence to accomplish something he saw as right....I don't feel that way, but if you're saying I'm Akainu, it would follow the same logic.
Not saying you're Akinu, the scales are totaly diffrent.
But in some ways yes i do belive you are closer to his way of seeing things.
I believe a peaceful approach is always the primary means for change. That's why people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King are so admirable - they never resorted to violence.
But in the course of history, there are times when standing up for the rights of people is what is right. The Colonies TRIED to peacefully settle the differences with King George, but those ultimately failed and the Revolutionary War was fought. Sure war is never a good thing. But neither is totalitarian rule. Adolf Hitler sought to use military force to establish an Arian Union, to kill all the Jewish people, to kill all who didn't fit his model of the ideal human being…so was it not right to stand up to him in World War II?
The World Government goes to terrible lengths to hide their deep dark secrets and maintain their grip on the World. They employ people like Akainu, the Shichibukai, Rob Lucci, Spandam, etc. who will kill civilians for the purpose of justice.
Those who believe in "ends justify the means" don't view their deeds as good...they believe a little bit of evil is needed for greater good. This was the same as Light Yagami in Death Note aside from his god complex.
There's a difference between this "Ends justify the means" philosphy and simply believing in good and evil. I don't believe in relative humanism. I don't believe hthat there is no such thing as good and evil. That is precisely why I wouldn't buy into ends justify the means. The people you're describing as "black and white" are those in the gray area and those in the gray area are black and white. Luffy does what's right, he follows his sense of justice and doesn't care if it means going against the political powers that be. Smoker is the same - he does what is right....he follows what he believes to be the path that is the most righteous. Akainu is the one "in the gray" as you would say. He sees the end as just, but not every action he takes to obtain that goal.
I don't believe in the idea of a government remaining just. Just seeing what Bush and Obama have done to the United States in the past 9 years is enough evidence for that. Our founding fathers did not trust themselves with power - that's why the Articles of Confederation were so weak and ultimately why they wanted so many checks and balances...they didn't trust so much power concentrated in the hands of so few.
As I said, simply believing in good and evil does not make me at all like Akainu. If I were at all like him, I wouldn't view him as a villain.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
If people don't like the WG they have to right to stand up . It just a matter of how much people don't like the WG. If it a was small amount they would not care . But it seems to be a large amount **and growing .
After a while you not going to sit down and take everything people do to you if you think it is wrong and you can do something about it . The revs in this case have the numbers where they can. They don't have to just sit there saying how they would like things change but can't get it done.
If people don't listen to you , then you have no choice but to fight .**
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
But in the course of history, there are times when standing up for the rights of people is what is right. The Colonies TRIED to peacefully settle the differences with King George, but those ultimately failed and the Revolutionary War was fought. Sure war is never a good thing. But neither is totalitarian rule. Adolf Hitler sought to use military force to establish an Arian Union, to kill all the Jewish people, to kill all who didn't fit his model of the ideal human being…so was it not right to stand up to him in World War II?
Ok when people are terribly oppressed it's time to do something. And when words are not enough it's time for weapons.
The World Government goes to terrible lengths to hide their deep dark secrets and maintain their grip on the World. They employ people like Akainu, the Shichibukai, Rob Lucci, Spandam, etc. who will kill civilians for the purpose of justice.
But they also employ guys like smoker aokiji garp and a lot of marines who would die for justice.
As I said, simply believing in good and evil does not make me at all like Akainu. If I were at all like him, I wouldn't view him as a villain.
Akainu is the guy who believes in absolute justice. From his point of view the pirates are terrible bastard going against justice and must be killed. He will do everything to kill them all.
In your posts you said it's good to go against the "evil WG". If a war has to be fought, if treachery has to be used, if innocent people has to die because of collateral damage or because of your plans then it's still ok because you're taking down the evil WG… That's exactly how Akainu thinks. But for him the pirates are the "evil"
@Sir:
I don't want to butt-in, but the WG is one party and the pirates are are separate from one another. I don't see how its a double standard.
It is one because the guy I'm responding to sees it fit to blatantly ignore things we've seen and been told that show the World Government as something more than just the "evil mcbadguy" of One Piece all the while painting the revolutionaries as saints who are in the right no questions asked when we've been shown that they do some less than reputable things in order to further their cause.
It doesn't work that way.
Plus he just spits out the same diatribe with a marginal different spin, and isn't responding to my posts which I'm guessing is because he can't refute it. I hadn't even gotten to the pirates yet, but I can do that later.
Please stop comparing me to Akainu. I think nothing like him. I don't believe evil means are justified by a noble end goal.
You assume the Revolutionaries are using evil means, I do not. The truth is neither of us knows because we've seen close to nothing of the REvolutionaries. The few things we've seen (ie Kuma, Ivankov, Inazuma, and Dragon) lead me to believe they're simply liberators, people who fight against an unjust World Government and aid those countries that seek freedom. The United States did the same thing in a lot of South / Central American Countries that fought for independance.
Fighting for independance does not fall under "ends justify the means" philosphy and I can't understand how it's being labeled as such by a few people. Perhaps because I don't buy the idea that everything is relative and that good and evil don't really exist we can never see eye to eye.
People like Smoker and Aokiji also go against orders if need be. As I said,l they follow true justice - they do what is right even if it means violating orders.
I am not saying the entire WOrld Government is evil…plese don't over-simplify. I believe there are those who believe in true justice like Smoker and AOkiji as I've repeatedly said.
But that does not nullify the evil done by Akainu, the Gorousei, the Celestial Dragons etc. and doesn't make them less unjust.
Well I suppose when you disagree it's easy to say the other person hasn't responded. Not true though.
We haven't been shown anything about the Revolutionaries. At this point it's speculation on my end, as well as yours.
Plus don't forget some islands are rule by kings , just because the king want to be part of the WG don't mean his people want to be part of it .
For dragon group you take down the islands that part of WG .
You free people from them ,that was never a part of them like the slaves.
After a while your going get pretty big army .
It is one because the guy I'm responding to sees it fit to blatantly ignore things we've seen and been told that show the World Government as something more than just the "evil mcbadguy" of One Piece all the while painting the revolutionaries as saints who are in the right no questions asked when we've been shown that they do some less than reputable things in order to further their cause.
It doesn't work that way.
Plus he just spits out the same diatribe with a marginal different spin, and isn't responding to my posts which I'm guessing is because he can't refute it. I hadn't even gotten to the pirates yet, but I can do that later.
We know nothing off the revs , when did they show they do less reputable things to further there cause.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Those who believe in "ends justify the means" don't view their deeds as good…they believe a little bit of evil is needed for greater good. This was the same as Light Yagami in Death Note aside from his god complex.
That might describe CP9s view on things, i.e dark justice. But doesnt sound anything at all like the Akainu we know.
There's a difference between this "Ends justify the means" philosphy and simply believing in good and evil.
Of course there is, never argued to the contrary. Just saying that you seemed like a ends justify the means kind of guy.
Akainu is the one "in the gray" as you would say.
He sees the end as just, but not every action he takes to obtain that goal.
Akainu is the very definition of a guy who sees things in black and white.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
The United States did the same thing in a lot of South / Central American Countries that fought for independance.
You are of course aware that the US toppled democraticaly elected rulers for the sake of their own puppet dictators during that period yes? Seems like it would be sort of like kicking yourself in the balls bringing it up if you did.
The Revolutionary Army uses Baldigo in the Grand Line as their base for their activities. While civil wars break out in each country, they will also instigate neighbouring countries to start civil wars, thus expanding the scale of civil unrest.
Wella, a prosperous city with 400 years history. The people were living contentedly but due to the influence of the Revolutionary Army, the city is now starting to decline.
There's more if necessary, and it's easy to say you haven't because you've done nothing to refute my points.
-You say Luffy is some hero of justice? I show you that isn't the case by pointing out his reasons for doing what he did, nothing to do with that.
-You say the revolutionaries are automatically the good guys simply because they oppose the World Government? Read above.
-You say the World Government slaughters people indiscriminately? Both Buster Calls show them succeeding at or at least attempting to get anyone not involved away from where the attack wll happen.
I've yet to see a response ot any of these; among others.
It was in One Piece: Yellow.
Unless you can find anything within the comic that contradicts it like the Luffy=Zoro and Newgate is still at his prime thing then no reason to doubt it.
Luffy's not a champion of justice?
He didn't punch a Celestial Dragon for what they did to Camie?
He didn't take down Arlong Park for what they did to Nami?
He didn't fight Crocodile for the sake of Vivi and Alabasta?
He didn't fight Lucci for the injustice being done to Robin?
You understimate the depth of LUffy's character. He'll help any of his friends, no matter who stands in front of him.
Still speculation until we see more of the Revolutionaries. You act as if any revolution against Government is unjust. Again, you don't know the context that this took place - Mariejora is also a prosperous place…does that mean it would be wrong to see it decline? To end the slavery there? We know nothing about this "prosperous" city.
I didn't say they're automatically good guys. It's my THEORY or speculation they will be protagonists or at the very least neutral and will not serve as antagonists in the story based on the revolutionary characters we've seen thus far - Kuma, Dragon, etc.
I say the World Gov. leaders are corrupt based on their actions.
It's pretty simple really.
Yes SOME of the marines try to save the innocent in the Buster Call while OTHERS don't care. Further proof of a split among the Marines.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
It was in One Piece: Yellow.
Unless you can find anything within the comic that contradicts it like the Luffy=Zoro and Newgate is still at his prime thing then no reason to doubt it.
Well data books are not canon . I mean even in last chapter the data book was wrong .
Not saying that dragon is good guy i expect him to make the WG life hell by any means it takes.
As i said people are making this to black and white .
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Luffy's not a champion of justice?
He didn't punch a Celestial Dragon for what they did to Camie?
He didn't take down Arlong Park for what they did to Nami?
He didn't fight Crocodile for the sake of Vivi and Alabasta?
He didn't fight Lucci for the injustice being done to Robin?You understimate the depth of LUffy's character. He'll help any of his friends, no matter who stands in front of him.
Still speculation until we see more of the Revolutionaries. You act as if any revolution against Government is unjust. Again, you don't know the context that this took place - Mariejora is also a prosperous place…does that mean it would be wrong to see it decline? To end the slavery there? We know nothing about this "prosperous" city.
I didn't say they're automatically good guys. It's my THEORY or speculation they will be protagonists or at the very least neutral and will not serve as antagonists in the story based on the revolutionary characters we've seen thus far - Kuma, Dragon, etc.
I say the World Gov. leaders are corrupt based on their actions.
It's pretty simple really.
Yes SOME of the marines try to save the innocent in the Buster Call while OTHERS don't care. Further proof of a split among the Marines.
lol the depth of Luffy's character. Him being as shallow as the comic book is part of what makes him such a good and fitting main character you idiot, there's no depth to be seen.
lol the depth of Luffy's character. Him being as shallow as the comic book is part of what makes him such a good and fitting main character you idiot, there's no depth to be seen.
The only depth luffy has is he will do anything to help his friends or people he become friends with .
He wants to be the free and do whatever he wants, The problem with that is , in the OP world you have to be pirate for full freedom or a outlaw.
Well data books are not canon . I mean even in last chapter the data book was wrong .
Unless you can find anything within the comic that contradicts it like the Luffy=Zoro and Newgate is still at his prime thing then no reason to doubt it.
That's how we knew how many commanders there were amongst the Whitebeard Pirates long before this current arc.
Please don't call me an idiot. We're debating a manga, there's no reason to be impolite. We simply have a disagreement, that's certainly no reason to insult a person's intelligence.
What if one dude disagrees with another and says that 'n' comes before 'm' in the alphabet?
Would that be a good reason to insult his intelligence?
I think DoFlamingo said it best. Justice WILL ALWAYS prevail, simply because the winner will become justice. Especially true in history changing war like this (please don't compare that statement with a ball game, even the olympics). Seriously, history is always written by the winner. If Hitler had won WWII i bet we'll all be bashing the allied forces in history classes.
I personally believe that right or wrong is irrelevant in war, whatever methods u use, no matter how despicable. As long as u win, then u can right the laws and create ur own moral standards.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Luffy's not a champion of justice?
No.
He didn't punch a Celestial Dragon for what they did to Camie?
He didn't take down Arlong Park for what they did to Nami?
He didn't fight Crocodile for the sake of Vivi and Alabasta?
He didn't fight Lucci for the injustice being done to Robin?
Thank you for repeating what I already wrote or would have been written.
You're only furthering what I've stated and refuting yours.
You understimate the depth of LUffy's character. He'll help any of his friends, no matter who stands in front of him.
That's not some underlying depth. It's what Luffy is, no more no less.
Still speculation until we see more of the Revolutionaries.
So you've got nothing.
Good to know.
You act as if any revolution against Government is unjust.
Never implicated that in my posts at all. Both have done both helpful and messed up things which I've already stated.
Read more thoroughly please.
Again, you don't know the context that this took place - Mariejora is also a prosperous place…does that mean it would be wrong to see it decline? To end the slavery there? We know nothing about this "prosperous" city.
A kingdom that was doing fine until the reovlutionaries purposely caused chaos to the home base of the World Government.
Bad comparison.
I didn't say they're automatically good guys.
Uh huh…
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
Anyway, I view Dragon as being a hero in the future, and the Tenryuubito, and Gorousei as villains.
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
The evidence that they're good is the tyranny of the World Government
Oh snap!:ninja:
I say the World Gov. leaders are corrupt based on their actions.
No one's denying corruption is amongst the World Government.
At least to try to stay on-track with the discussion going on or don't even bother.
Yes SOME of the marines try to save the innocent in the Buster Call while OTHERS don't care. Further proof of a split among the Marines.
There is no major "split" amongst the Navy, no one amongst its ranks are taking sides plotting to take down the others.
Also they didn't "try," it wasn't some half-assed attempt considering the people were ready to be shipped out until Sakazuki's actions(which was done on his own decision not ordered by superiors).
Oh I'm still waiting by the way.
I would argue that it doesn't matter that Akainu was acting alone on Ohara because what he did was still permitted and he was never reprimanded for it, apparently. The elder stars may not have ordered it, but they still condoned it, which doesn't reflect well on them since we know the government has powerful enough agents that there had to be a way to avoid killing innocent people.
@Sir:
I would argue that it doesn't matter that Akainu was acting alone on Ohara because what he did was still permitted and he was never reprimanded for it, apparently.
So how do exactly do we know he wasnt reprimanded at any point during this 20 year leap in time?
Every other Marine that broke the rules faced punishment, Morgan and Ripper for instance. So why shouldnt it happen to him. I mean even his superior (Spandine) found it pretty damn revolting so he probably didnt get of scott free.
Unless your arguing that he cant have been punished because he's still in active service, which is probably due to the fact that no matter what he did they cant afford to drum him out of the military and lose what may very well be the strongest soldier they have. I mean logia's dont grow on trees, or well they do but you get my point:ninja:
So how do exactly do we know he wasnt reprimanded at any point during this 20 year leap in time?
yeah, for all we know he could still have the marks on his ass from the spanking Sengoku gave him, before promoting him to one of the highest ranks in the military.
Because their promotions were obviously a direct result of the buster call? And that's why Doberman, Strawberry, Fidel and the rest are all admirals now right?
And even if he was busted down in rank for that, 20 years is a looooong time, and a man with his abilities could have made it from Coby's grunt rank back to the top again.
So how do exactly do we know he wasnt reprimanded at any point during this 20 year leap in time?
Every other Marine that broke the rules faced punishment, Morgan and Ripper for instance. So why shouldnt it happen to him. I mean even his superior (Spandine) found it pretty damn revolting so he probably didnt get of scott free.
Unless your arguing that he cant have been punished because he's still in active service, which is probably due to the fact that no matter what he did they cant afford to drum him out of the military and lose what may very well be the strongest soldier they have. I mean logia's dont grow on trees, or well they do but you get my point:ninja:
You have good points until you say that he shouldn't be discharged just because he's strong, which is pretty horrible. No matter what he did in the past or what he could do in the future, he still unnecessarily murdered innocent people ("unnecessarily" because they had Kuzan right there, they could easily have kept anyone from leaving until they were able to confirm who "deserved" to be executed) and I couldn't believe that there's any rational person who thinks a person like that should be allowed to be in power in a just government.
I also think it's strange that you joke about how the elder stars have 666 tattoos and plan about killing puppies and stuff when Sengoku and the Marines have already shown that they have no problem with killing pregnant women and babies just because they might be "suspicious". I mean, they supported infanticide. No organization that isn't evil could do something like that, and I have a hard time believing that Oda wants us to feel bad for the poor upkeepers of justice who have to kill "accursed" babies to protect the world from evil.
I've mentioned it before in the past, in other places, but how much influence do the Tenryuukuso exert over the World Government? The answer I hear most typically is that they don't exert any real influence because they are essentially a liability. I've never heard a satisfactory answer as to why this is the case though. They are, after all, descendants of the rulers of the twenty kingdoms that initially formed the World Government. I would assume that those twenty countries maintain significant influence over WG policy. Unless of course, those twenty countries have already fallen to the Sexual Revolutionaries.
Hmm. So far, the World Government's track record for "evil" includes infanticide and life at slave labor for the citizens of any country that refused to join the World Government. Buster Calls aside, I'm curious to hear what sort of rationale makes enslaving neutral countries- and I'm referring to literal enslavement here- a matter of mere diplomacy, and not high skullduggery and nefandousness?
I was always wondering if the countries (or some citizen) that refused (depends on the translation here) to join the WG also decided to work with the revolutionaries thus the enslavement. Stephen wrote that some of the labourers at Tequila wolf are "Either criminals sent from other nations,or citizens of lands that resisted joining the World Government…"
Doesn't it leaves room to assume that some countries decided to join the WG and some of their citizen who tried to resist were sent to tequila wolf cause they will be labeled as revolutionaries (aka enemies of the WG)?
As for the hunt after rogers kid it was really a shame. I guess roger was just that dangerous that the marines was so damn scared that his son would inherit his power and will one day become the same threat which was used to justify what they did to the pregnant women...
EDIT: Oh i saw that "lands that resisted" means the lands resisted... Nevermind then :)
^
I'm a bit confused with OP's country system actually. They say that there are twenty kingdoms which formed the WG. The descendants of those kings became the Tenryubito who all reside in Mariejois. Does this mean these twenty kingdoms became one, like how the 13 colonies which became one United States? Because if not, how come all the Tenryubito reside in just one place. They should be administrating their respective kingdoms if this is the case.
Also, Vivi's dad is not a Tenryubito. Alabasta therefore is not part of those twenty kingdoms yet it is somehow under the WG. I remember Vivi's dad say that a certain body (can't remember if that's the WG or some sort of council of kings) will not allow Crocodile to takeover.
I think I said this already (like over 99999999999 times) but no one seems to pay the hack attention to what I say; One Piece does not follow the archtypical overused plot device that black is evil and white is good. In the world of One Piece, black doe not mean bad while white does not mean good, This is not Inheritance Cycle or Lord of the Rings. So like everybody has been saying already and I have to repeat the entire thing, the World Government does not have to be 100% evil even if it does bad things, that just mean that the WG is getting out of hand and no one is doing anything about it.
Dragon wants to put an end to feudalism. His thought is dangerous.
Note that Ivankov is Russian. You know what connects Russian and the word "revolution".
@joekido:
I think I said this already (like over 99999999999 times) but no one seems to pay the hack attention to what I say; One Piece does not follow the archtypical overused plot device that black is evil and white is good. In the world of One Piece, black doe not mean bad while white does not mean good, This is not Inheritance Cycle or Lord of the Rings. So like everybody has been saying already and I have to repeat the entire thing, the World Government does not have to be 100% evil even if it does bad things, that just mean that the WG is getting out of hand and no one is doing anything about it.
Well no shit genius, but they've done enough bad shit to be labeled as 'evil' or at least 'not the kind of government anyone would want'.
@Sir:
You have good points until you say that he shouldn't be discharged just because he's strong, which is pretty horrible.
Oh it is, just as it is pretty horrible that they have to cut deals with a guy like Croc. But that's the global power balance for you. Like i said before when you have the weight of their world on your shoulders you cant always be a blue eyed idealist no matter how much you want.
I also think it's strange that you joke about how the elder stars have 666 tattoos and plan about killing puppies and stuff when Sengoku and the Marines have already shown that they have no problem with killing pregnant women and babies just because they might be "suspicious". I mean, they supported infanticide.
Never really understood why they wanted Ace so badly myself, but i suppose that in this world a bloodline actualy carries with it certain power. Like how Sasuke's family has that freaky eye thing which makes them potential threats. Not to mention the possibility that he'd rally those loyal to the pirate king. Anyhow like i argued when the chapter came out, killing someone if they aroused their suspicious sounds like it would mean if they dont find a fit no one dies.
No organization that isn't evil could do something like that, and I have a hard time believing that Oda wants us to feel bad for the poor upkeepers of justice who have to kill "accursed" babies to protect the world from evil.
Ugh i hate that line of thought, no one who isnt evil could kill, if a person doesnt only do good things then he's evil.
What im suggesting is that some of their actions, such as the Ohara situation may be of the kind that when you or me given the choice and knowing what they know would really see no other choice than to do the same no matter how much we wanted it to go down diffrently. And would that then make us evil?
that's the line i think were heading down in the future story arcs.
All Governments are evil and corrupt. :ninja:
Well there can never be real justice in this world. There's always going to be corruption, always going to be injustice. In the end we can't figure out why, so it's a matter of doing our best on an individual level to prevent corruption.
The very nature of a World Government is going to be something evil, something corrupt. Any work of fiction that has included a World Government has depicted it as a dominant, oppressive force and One Piece is no different.
Just look at the Bible - in the end days there will be a World Government. Again, an evil force.
Think of the World Gov. in One Piece like this: We currently have the United Nations which is supposed to solve globalist issues, but really does nothing effectively. Think if the UN actually had power to exert rules over other countries and was headed by an independant group.
There are obviously moral gray areas - things we can't decipher. No human is perfect, so no one can decide fully what is right and what is wrong.
But there are some things - slavery, genocide, infantcide, etc. which can clearly be labeled as evil.
Luffy isn't out to save the world and I don't think he's going to. But he will do his part - he'll fight the world government itself if injustice is done to his friends.
There can never be some world revolution where we achieve world peace because no human being is perfect.
However, toppling an oppressive force like the World Government is definitely concievable. One Piece is largely about freedom - that is why Luffy wanted to become a pirate after all. He clearly differentiates between himself and pirates who pillage and plundder.
While I know we can't understand life as black and white, the Straw Hats are not meant to be morally ambigous - Oda's depicted them as protgagonists. No question is left, "Should Luffy really have done this, that, or the other?".
It seems fairly obvious Oda is depecting the actions of the World Government in a negative light, and the more we see, the more corrupt their actions appear.
There is no way the Ohara incident can be twisted around as a righteous course of action. They executed innocent archaelogists for studying a language to hide the True History, killed hundreds of innocent civilians so this secret wouldn't get out, and relentlessly hunted down an 8 year old girl for knowing too much. There is no way that is acceptable - they're covering their own dark secrets - the True History - and killing whoever they need to when necessary. Akainu may be responsible for the Civilians, but the Five Elder Stars knew about the scholars and Nico Robin. They would have to sign off on both the 79 million bounty and the decision to issue a buster call / dispatch CP9 to murder innocent researchers for trying to learn a language the Government doesn't want anyone to know because their dark history might come out. So to hide the skeletons in their closet, they're willing to murder. No way that's justifiable or could be considered a moral grey area.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
There is no way the Ohara incident can be twisted around as a righteous course of action.
Whoever called it righteous, i wouldnt take a subjective word like that in my mouth.
The gist of what i said was more that sometimes hard decisions have to be made, things cant always be peachy keen and does then moral dictate that anyone who does something that harms a few for the good of many must be evil? Or can there ever be a course of action that may fall right in betwenn the two.
A scenario when you want to point fingers and judge the bad people, but know that in their shoes with all things accounted for you are not certain that you could have done it any diffrently. And if you did would it have been for the better.
but the Five Elder Stars knew about the scholars and Nico Robin. They would have to sign off on both the 79 million bounty
Honestly i have no sympathy for the Oharans scholars, if you know there is a death penelty for it and you choose to do it anyway you have made your choice and you get to live with the consequences. The Oharans all knew this.
and the decision to issue a buster call / dispatch CP9 to murder innocent researchers for trying to learn a language the Government doesn't want anyone to know because their dark history might come out. So to hide the skeletons in their closet, they're willing to murder.
Think your misusing the term innocent here, it applys to the civilians but not to the scholars. They willingly commited a crime that they knew could and probably would lead to this scenario. They arent anything i would call innocent.
But sure if you want the story to be as simplistic as evil organisation hides evil deeds, no deeper thought put into it, no justification beyond that they really really enjoy being in a control position where they can be evil then be my guest.
I for one hope Oda never sinks that low.
No way that's justifiable or could be considered a moral grey area.
Rayleigh seems to disagree with you on that.
Oh? No sympathy for a person who is executed for researching a language all so some corrupt government can cover up their past? HA!
Define crime. Seriously whatever the GOVERNMENT says is right, is right? You have to be joking. Until 170 years ago, in the United States it was legal for one person to be the property of another.
So by that warped logic - that the government can do no wrong and those who violate the law are strictly the criminals, the escaped slaves and Northerners who helped them deserved their punishment as criminals? Those who fought for civil rights through sit-ins, etc. deserved their punishment for violating racist laws?
You must realize that not all laws are just and not all governments are beyond corruption.
Refusing to obey an unjust law is exactly what Martin Luther King did. It's exactly what Ghandi did. If you want to call those people criminals, I think you're the one closer to Akainu's way of thinking. I realize you didn't say this directly, but think about the implications of your statement.
You act as if I'm simplifying things, but I'm not - I'm simply pointing out the OBVIOUS fact that researching a language is not a crime, and any government that punishes that crime by death is OBVIOUSLY HIDING SOMETHING / COVERING SOMETHING UP.
What exactly do you think the True History and Void Century are? Some neat little things Oda decided to throw into the story or something more important?
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Robin, Franky, Brook, Jimbei, Carrot, Vivi, Smoker
"ONE PIECE, IT EXISTS" - The Great Pirate Edward Newgate
@Vongola_Boss_XI:
So by that warped logic - that the government can do no wrong and those who violate the law are strictly the criminals
Why are you making it so moral, if you know there is a punishment for a certain act, and you say to hell with the consequences and willingly do it anyway you know that if you get caught doing it you will suffer that punishment.
They knew what they were getting themselves into and willing to take the consequences that is all im saying.
Refusing to obey an unjust law is exactly what Martin Luther King did. It's exactly what Ghandi did. If you want to call those people criminals
Wouldnt dream of calling them criminals, those people sought to change laws. And that's what i think the Oharans should have done. If you think a law is unfair work toward changing it through non violent means, work up some public outrage and keep pushing. Dont just break the law it like it meant nothing.
I'm simply pointing out the OBVIOUS fact that researching a language is not a crime, and any government that punishes that crime by death is OBVIOUSLY HIDING SOMETHING / COVERING SOMETHING UP.
Well duh of course they are covering something up, nobody is contesting that. But that something is something of such magnitude that even their worst enemy thinks that for now it may be best if it stays covered up.
What exactly do you think the True History and Void Century are? Some neat little things Oda decided to throw into the story or something more important?
Of course they are going to be mindblowing revelations, atleast that's what i hope they will be.
That's what ive been arguing for all this time really. That the true history and what went on during the void century are such enormous things that can and would affect the entire world if released. Way beyond it just being the WGs dirty laundery.
But wolfwood, they're evil.
EVIL!!!11!!!111!
! insert Martin Luther King Jr. reference here
