hell would be interesting….but I still say that we've got very little HARD evidence Kuina is dead.
Tom Lives!
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But we only saw a body maybe it was a ploy of the world goverment to confuse people so that kuina could join the marines in secret
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WTF??? Why did you type that 20 characters thing? I´m not a genius in mathematics but from the first look of it I would say that your first paragraph should have more then 20 characters.
lol sorry guys I forgot to add one more 0 to 20 :laugh:
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0.0 I was thinking more maybe it was one of those really deep comas where they seem dead….medical technology in the OP world doesn't exactly seem stellar here, they could have buried her and not known she was alive, and then she digs out....creepy!
Or maybe somebody has a ressurection fruit? Not impossible.
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I didn't catch the trump card line….and how the HELL would Robin be the trump card? Franky doesn't even know robin! And they can't use the weapon without franky because they need the blueprints. Now i'm almost CERTAIN tom's alive.
I figured the trump card was Spandam. Tom being it doesn't make any sense. He wouldn't willingly help them, and I think both he and Franky are strong enough not to play into a "save him or the world" game.
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back to the Kuina question…yes I am suggested we get BACK to the off topic stuff....it IS kind of weird that he wouldn't even let Zoro close to the body...
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Weird? What good would an angry little boy do to a dead body?
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people do like to get a look at the bodies of departed loved ones
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Look at him. If he was going over there to peacefully sit and stare he wouldn't have been so worked up. In any case, he couldn't have been of any help.
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Tom-San living, I could sort of handle it, but I'd be EXTREMELY mad.
Kuina living, I'd have to say, theres about a 50% chance that if Kuina is alive, I'll stop reading One Piece, for it'd make almost all of Zoro's ambitions worth nothing if he wasnt going to do any of it for Kuina's sake.
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For Tom to be alive would be simply stupid (as stupid as it was when it tourned out that Pell was alive). About Kuina: I think it is impossible for her to be alive - remember we saw her funeral - at least in the anime. IMHO Tashigi is something like a reincarnatied Kuina - she looks like her, has about the same belives as her. There are of course some major differences, but the similarities are strong - so strong that Zoro prefers not to meet with Tashigi.
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y do u guys think that someone has to die in someone's past for their quest have any meaning? Zoro made tht promise before kuina died. so even if she was alive it isnt for nothing.
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It´s not about the promise Zoro made to hear, it´s that if she comes back and turns out to be Tashigi who lost her memory (aswell as the sense of balance) then the whole development would totally scream TELE NOVELA!!! And believe me, that´s the last thing anybody of us wants to see in One Piece.
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If Kuina is alive…I would be alright with it. Her being Tashigi though...no way.
I could see if Kuina faked her own death so it would spark Zoro to train more and to stop challenging her all the time.
Falling down the steps? A budo expert doesn't go out that way.
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one piece blue says she's dead.
ooshi78
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ooshi's awesome, reminds me of Fukuro.
It's not that death makes their lives better but I mean, imagine Zoro doing all this crap kinda in her memory, and then she just pops up outta nowhere. That should be considered a loss.
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Perhaps the government never sent Tom to Impel down but is keeping him hidden somewhere in Eneas lobby. During Franky's flashback we saw how the Government and Spandam were so desperate to capture Tom and obtain the blueprints for the ancient weapon from him. I don't think the government would just kill him off so easily since he's such an important part of their plans in reconstructing the ancient weapon. Even if the government thought Tom was no longer in possession of the plans, the fact that he was in possession of the plans in the first place would be reason enough to keep him alive. Since he had possession of the plans, chances are that he read them (or at least the government would have thought that he read them). If by chance the blueprints were ascertained to have been destroyed or lost forever, the government could at least as a last resort rely on Tom's memory to restore the ancient weapon (through forceful coercion most likely - I've no doubt the government has tried on numerous times to coerce Tom - unsuccessfully I should add - to reveal the plans).
If such a conspiracy did exist this could explain why Spandam has such a high position within the secret CP9 organization despite him being so weak, since he's such a key player in this whole clandestine government project. And this could also explain why Ao Kiji gave Spandam permission to use the buster call. Ao Kiji might have disagreed with the idea of rebuilding such a dangerous thing, but was in no position to stop the project from happening. He might have thought that such a weapon would be an uncontrollable monster, and re-introducing such a weapon would spell certain disaster for the entire world. By giving Spandam permission to use the Buster Call, he gives Spandam as least that option as a last resort in trying to terminate the secret project if something should go terribly wrong with it.
edit: I have just reread the entire Franky flashback (after having dinner) and have confirmed for myself that this conspiracy is indeed true. The government is indeed trying to rebuild the ancient weapon and has placed Spandam in charge of the entire project - again explaining why Spandam has such a high position within CP9.
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thats a good summary of all the reasons y tom's alive…kudos to u zeefer. (and i still stand by my prediction that spandam will be deemed unecessary by cp9 and be eliminated)
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Just um, thought I'd throw this out there. Ya know, just for shits n' giggles. But if a Data File happened to come out during the course of the first half of Water 7, it prolly' would have listed Kaku and Lucci as shipwrights, wouldn't it. Be kinda ridiculous to ruin the plot twist on a mystery that wasn't fully revealed yet huh?
Like how Red lists Miss All Sunday as a member of Baroque Works.
Honestly. Saying it "has to be" one way or the other is ridiculous. I'm just open to the fact that we don't know the whole story.
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actually miss all sunday isn't listed at all. they list "nico robin" as a member of the straw hats. kuina has been dead from before the voyage.
ooshi78
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_> Like how Red lists Miss All Sunday as a member of Baroque Works.
coughs ._
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Giving your own life away is the biggest sacrifice a human can make. If you do it, you're a hero.
Difference of opinion as far as that goes. As far as I'm concerned, if you have to die, then you're a victim or even a martyr, not a hero. Death is never anything but tragic and stupid. The more I study history and the more family members that I lose, the more and more that becomes apparent to me.
If you instead of it calculate the range of the bomb and make a mathematical estimate of how to escape, and survive in the course of it, it's not heroic - it's geeky.
Well, again, why not?
He acted in such a way that he saved the Kingdom of Alabasta as well as his own life. It's easier to reconcile the notion that he dropped the bomb once he was high enough, but wasn't quite fast enough to totally escape injury than it is that he was at Ground Zero and didn't even get his hat incinerated.
@omae:
I looked for where I might have indicated as such but I never said such a thing.
Well, I didn't intend to imply that was a response to something that you had said, but was a general observation on manga in general.
We have seen people give up their lives for others in One Piece before: Bellemere, Hiruluk (who was going to die anyway, but was willing to end his life earlier), and the Alabastans who sacrificed themselves against Crocodile.
But, for the most part, Oda has steered away from portraying people who sacrifice their lives as being heroic and more as being tragic figures. Robin's willingness to turn herself in is inspires feelings of pity more than anything else. Bellemere's death was especially senseless; it's less of a "how impressive that she loved those kids that much" situation and more "how sad that those kids have to grow up without her".
That's what bothered me about Pell's apparent death as it lacked the gravitas that One Piece usually uses in such instances. It seemed more generic and less Oda.
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For Tom to be alive would be simply stupid (as stupid as it was when it tourned out that Pell was alive). About Kuina: I think it is impossible for her to be alive - remember we saw her funeral - at least in the anime. IMHO Tashigi is something like a reincarnatied Kuina - she looks like her, has about the same belives as her. There are of course some major differences, but the similarities are strong - so strong that Zoro prefers not to meet with Tashigi.
Forget the anime. Oda is not making the anime. Trust in the manga. The anime is a warped version of the manga, the manga is the true story.
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@omae:
coughs .
blue is newer.
ooshi78
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Very good! Which is why I suggested in my post that you didn't read, it seems when certain events are revealed they show up in the latest book. And sometimes information we previously thought to be true ends up not being so at all. Thereby voiding info from previous books. Which goes back to your declaration of her being dead in Blue as some kind of end-all data.
That's done.
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the latest information indicates she's dead. the oldest information indicates she's dead. any information in between indicates she's dead. she's dead. the burden of proof lies with you and there's no information that states otherwise. you have NO PROOF.
ooshi78
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the burden of proof lies with you
:laugh: Me? I have nothing to prove nor am I trying to prove she isn't dead. That is all up to Oda. According the the current info she's dead. That could easily change according to what the author has in store.=)
And again, because it's written in Blue doesn't mean it couldn't change. Just as my example of Robin from Red to Blue. I'm not out to create information in the series, just keep an open mind as to what could happen ^_~
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tom is dead, kuina is dead. both are assumed dead until otherwise proven.
ooshi78
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I'm curious. Where did anyone say Kuina or Tom definitely weren't considered dead by the current story? Naturally if they've said as such they're wrong, but then again so is anyone that says they will be as such at the end of the tale. The only way we can say they are dead for certain is if we phrase it the following way:
"As of the story's progression to its current point, Tom and Kuina are officially considered dead."
If someone where to question whether the possibility of a plot twist in this story exists or not, they obviously haven't been paying attention to what can happen in OP.
Is there an unspoken rule amongst fans which states we should never leave the option of a plot twist open? That rules out some great parts of OP. CP9, Ace, D., Blackbeard, etc.
One should never assume. You know what that does.
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the title of this thread is "tom lives!".
ooshi78
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the title of this thread is "tom lives!".
Yeah! An outrageous title for a thread. Sure got me to read it. Good call on Voodzik's part. But uh, did you read the first post?
I don't know if anyone else noticed, but we never saw Tom die….I think we'll end up smashing into Impel down, and he'll be imprisoned there.
I don't see where Voodzik said he knows for certain that Tom is alive. He offered an idea though.
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thanks omae…yeah, while I do think we'll find tom alive, I never said it was gospel. We'll see if it happens
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yeah, we also never SAW gol d roger become the pirate king, so maybe he wasn't…
it's like saying "when i close my eyes, the world disappears". you need to do more than SPECULATE to convince me.
ooshi78
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Food for thought about Kuina's "death"
We see a body with it's a face covered on the ground. We assume she's dead. We see a very young Zoro distrot by the lose of his friend and fighting companion. To what reason would the father have to trick Zoro into believing she's dead. It's not as if he heard the bet Zoro made w/ Kuina. It's not as if Zoro wasn't improving and he (Zoro's sensei) didn't notice this.
At this time, I think it's safe to assume that Zoro was not at a level where he could leave the dojo. I believe (just as the anime hypothized) that Zoro remained at the dojo for a few more years training. Are we to believe that a father would send away his daughter for all these years simply as an inspiration for Zoro's improvement, or for whatever other reasons can be fathomed. I find this highly illogical, and I use this as an alternative reasoning to confirm Kuina's death. On the assumption she's hiding in the dojo, I think Zoro would have found out. And seeing how upfront and abrasive he was as a kid, i'm sure he tried to confirm her death for himself.
On the Tom's death consideration. I starting to believe there's room for him to be alive, but I don't like the idea. Though Spandam is a bastard, and is generally full of himself, i'm really gunning for Franky to build the Strawhat's new ship, and though this isn't necessary what will happen, but what's the sense of having Franky build it, if Tom is still alive.
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If we already have a cyborg then in the future Oda could try to cover some other genres too: Reeks like a movie number 7 - "Good luck for some, bad luck for Zoro".
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Well, my theory was that Kuina does fall down the stairs (accident, banana peel, malice, not important). She doesn't die, but it does leave her in the off-balance clumsy state we know Tashigi as.
Now, as the dojo-master's daughter, she was no doubt a showpiece. Would he be proud to have people come in and say "oh, this is your daughter you spoke of so highly" and have her as off as Tashigi? No!
For the sake of his business, writing her off as dead works well, just send her elsewhere, cover her story up and support her until she grows up and joins the Marine.
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yeah, we also never SAW gol d roger become the pirate king, so maybe he wasn't…
it's like saying "when i close my eyes, the world disappears". you need to do more than SPECULATE to convince me.
ooshi78
Technically, Gold Roger was _never an actual king. "Pirate King" was his nickname, just like "Strawhat" is the nickname for Luffy. When Roger was executed, Roger's old nickname was glorified into an actual title, just as One Piece was just Roger's collective possessions, but it became a legendary treasure after Roger was relieved of owenership. 4kids actually makes this a bit clearer by changing the nickname to a surtitle, as in, "Strawhat Luffy, King of Pirates".
In regard to Kuina, having her alive would be a bit sucky, since in Eastern countries, childhood promises appear to have an incredibly powerful effect on the psyche of an individual. Zoro's drive is based on his promise, as is Luffy's; parallels go to Goku's promises to the little Native American boy at the foot of Corin Tower (Dragonball), Keitaro's promise to his young love (Love Hina), InuYasha's broken promise to Kikyo (InuYasha), and so on.
In a western setting, childhood promises are nothing. That doesn't appear to be the case with eastern stuff, and Kuina's survival would somewhat weaken Zoro's resolve. As the only living person who made that promise, it's up to Zoro to achieve what Kuina could not. There's less stress on him if Kuina were still alive, for there would be two people chasing after the same goal, as opposed to one.
The ultimate irony, therefore, is not Kuina's survival, but Tashigi defeating Zoro after Zoro defeats Mihawk. I find that a fitting end; Oda tends to avoid putting in (love-sense) romance or ecchi elements into OP, of which in regard to the latter is a good thing, but not in regard to the first. Of course, romance, comedy, and fantasy should all be suberted by OP's objective theme, which is adventure, but a little romance, especially an ironic one (Zoro ending up with Tashigi), would be most welcome at the end of the series.
In regard to Tom…well, I would be sorely disappointed if he were still alive. Tom's survival somewhat lessens the emotional impact of Franky's flashback, which errs Oda's style of storytelling in regard to deaths from an annoying tendancy to an actual flaw._
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I think it'd be awesome if Zoro had to uphold his ORIGINAL promise…. and, after defeating Mihawk, has to then fight Kuina.... but having her as Tashigi.... no. Kuina is dead and, as much as I think she's an awesome character, I think it should remain as such.
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Yeah I see Tashigi simply as a way for Zoro to complete his goal. Even if he finally defeats Mihawk, he will always have to live with the stigma that he was never able to beat Kuina. Hence he will defeat Tashigi and be somewhat satisfied. Tashigi had better be pretty damn good by that point though or I don't see Zoro being all that satisfied.
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yeah, we also never SAW gol d roger become the pirate king, so maybe he wasn't…
I really don't think that comparison works; Gold Roger being the Pirate King is defined by the narrative in a way that leaves no doubt as to his status.
I don't think Kuina's alive (though I did the first time that I saw Tashigi), but Tom's status as being dead is entirely dependent on Spandam's word that he is dead. It's blatantly obvious that Spandam's word is worthless.
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I think it'd be awesome if Zoro had to uphold his ORIGINAL promise…. and, after defeating Mihawk, has to then fight Kuina.... but having her as Tashigi.... no. Kuina is dead and, as much as I think she's an awesome character, I think it should remain as such.
wat do u mean "original" promise? his original promise was that either he or kuina would become the strongest swordsman. whether kuina is alive or not doesnt change anything
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Zoro is getting there too. That look he has in his eyes at showdown a few chapters back is getting more and more like Mihawk's.
He's grown by leaps and bounds though.
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wat do u mean "original" promise? his original promise was that either he or kuina would become the strongest swordsman. whether kuina is alive or not doesnt change anything
It was that they would become the two greatest, then compete for the title of greatest swordsman.
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When he got her sword, I think he said something about wielding her strength too. So wielding her strength against her…. doesn't work.
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Hey, why isnt anyone dying in OP?
Ok, Hilruk did but i cant come up with anyone else that we know for sure… -
I think it'd be awesome if Zoro had to uphold his ORIGINAL promise…. and, after defeating Mihawk, has to then fight Kuina.... but having her as Tashigi.... no. Kuina is dead and, as much as I think she's an awesome character, I think it should remain as such.
I'll wait and see….I think a final battle between Kuina and Zoro would be good, though
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Well, I think that after defeating a huge badass like Mihawk, beating some plain girl would be…. anti-climatic.
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I know a couple people have died, but here's one I always forget, The Claw-Kicking Squad.