@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
That’s interesting, because ship guard is a position that’s sometimes argued away because that leaves people behind.
On the other hand, we’ve already seen people doing it, like with helmsman. Hmm.
if only because it's unwise to leave you ship unguarded (which happened occasionally). the Strawhats do eventually group up together (like how they did in Punk Hazard and Egghead (just realize they're both places for Vegapunk)
PSN: The_BlueOGRE
Twitch: twitch.tv/blueogre
@Johnny-B-Decent
Yes he is. So far all the story said is that he is essentially dead. He hasn’t moved since defending Bonney from Saturn. We’ve seen some hints that something might be there, the slight smile looking at the sunset, small things…
But we’re working on hope here. Expecting that Lilith can restore him back to conscience and that he can spend time with Bonney (and live a happy life)
Kuma right now is catatonic, not brain dead. He reacts to stuff, but seems unable to comunicate. It feels like he’s acting on instict rather than being rational.
We don’t know what special trait buccaneers have, but Vegapunk attributed to it Kuma surviving the kill switch. Kuma’s mind also unraveled his programming somehow, he has free will.
@Chams-0 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Johnny-B-Decent
Yes he is. So far all the story said is that he is essentially dead. He hasn’t moved since defending Bonney from Saturn. We’ve seen some hints that something might be there, the slight smile looking at the sunset, small things…
But we’re working on hope here. Expecting that Lilith can restore him back to conscience and that he can spend time with Bonney (and live a happy life)
Well hope only works when there's action to back that up.
So far, Lilith hasn't made a further comment on Kuma's status despite what he did back at Egghead. So if there's going to be more that happens leading back to Kuma's recovery, then we can expect Lilith to further comment on this.
I found it VERY strange that there wasn’t a post-Egghead epilogue for Kuma and Bonney. We hadn’t had a single comment by anyone on Kuma’s state (or presence aboard the ship, for that matter). Is Kuma’s storyline going to be brought into Elbaf? Is it going to be resolved after Elbaf? I have no idea what’s going to happen.
@Chams-0 said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
I found it VERY strange that there wasn’t a post-Egghead epilogue for Kuma and Bonney. We hadn’t had a single comment by anyone on Kuma’s state (or presence aboard the ship, for that matter). Is Kuma’s storyline going to be brought into Elbaf? Is it going to be resolved after Elbaf? I have no idea what’s going to happen.
Obviously this is Oda’s way of keeping people curious regarding a situation that will be elaborated on later, kind of like Oda having Lucci say he killed Stussy instead of showing it.
@BlueOGRE said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@electricmastro said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
That’s interesting, because ship guard is a position that’s sometimes argued away because that leaves people behind.
On the other hand, we’ve already seen people doing it, like with helmsman. Hmm.if only because it's unwise to leave you ship unguarded (which happened occasionally). the Strawhats do eventually group up together (like how they did in Punk Hazard and Egghead (just realize they're both places for Vegapunk)
I honestly don’t think Oda is the most keen on further establishing Kuma as one who will join at this point.
He could have the story take any other turn in reviving Kuma to his regular human self, and further establish a bond between him and the Straw Hats through dialogue and conversations.
And yet, Oda basically has Kuma be a barely reactive mute, sitting around with just Bonney instead of having him actively party with Bonney along with the rest of the Straw Hats.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Yeah, I can't see Bonney and Kuma as separate entities within the story. They are meant to remain together. If one joins, so does the other, but it makes way more sense for them to go on their own way.
Still, we need to get a resolution on Kuma's mind before we get the end of their arc. Things can always evolve in unexpected ways.
I wouldn't be surprised if Oda just has Kuma as this silent superdad that follows Bonney around for the rest of the story. For all intents and purposes, Kuma only lost his advanced cognition.
@King-Cannon If this was just about finishing Bonney's story, I could see this as a bittersweet ending in that she gets her daddy back and takes care of him. But this is also Kuma's story, and I feel there's more to tell about his side of things, so I feel it will get continued.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@King-Cannon If this was just about finishing Bonney's story, I could see this as a bittersweet ending in that she gets her daddy back and takes care of him. But this is also Kuma's story, and I feel there's more to tell about his side of things, so I feel it will get continued.
I think the only important thing on Kuma's story that bothers revisiting is his heritage, which I believe is the reason he's sticking through Elbaf.
As a character himself, I don't really see much more to explore. We know he wants to fight alongside the Revolutionaries once more, which could be done in the state he currently is without much trouble.
@King-Cannon if we analyze just Kuma and Bonney, Kuma’s the main character, Bonney’s his support. His story began before hers, and her story was entirely centered on him. Bonney’s story is pretty done, but there are still dangling plot threads to be tied up for him.
His buccaneer heritage, its role in the Dawn of the world, meeting his revolutionary friends, his reasons for some of the Straw Hats’ destinations (mainly Luffy’s and Brook’s), witnessing the end of slavery. Kuma still has roles to play, however minor they may be.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
His buccaneer heritage, its role in the Dawn of the world, meeting his revolutionary friends, his reasons for some of the Straw Hats’ destinations (mainly Luffy’s and Brook’s), witnessing the end of slavery. Kuma still has roles to play, however minor they may be.
A lot of those things can be done through flashbacks though, particularly the SH destinations. It's not like he will suddenly ramble about the importance of the Kuja if he regains his speech.
As for the other events, Kuma can witness then in the state he's in, just like how he witnessed Bonney punching Saturn and flashing a weak smile. He's likely aware enough for that, and I doubt his personal input will be that important, especially since Bonney has his memories (she can speak for him).
Yeah, I don't think Kuma himself knows any of the important parts of his story that we still need. We know he has no idea what makes the buccaneer people special so that story has to come from someone else. I think he can stick around to see the end of slavery and remeeting up with the revolutionary army but he can get that done by just sitting there and waiting for everyone around him to do it (Dragon will come to him and end slavery possibly, Kuma just needs to remain alive for it).
The reasoning for Straw Hats destinations during the time-skip is a really minor point and doesn't need addressing. We don't know how much Kuma knew about the Straw Hats and their abilities so as far as we know it was random where he sent them. Maybe he saw Nami's weather powers and Zoro's swords and so got an idea of where to send them. He knew Franky was a cyborg and chopper was a doctor, so had idea on where to send them as well. But in hindsight, it's weird to send Robin to the bridge when he could've sent her to Dragon directly. Or even to Iva's island, but instead he sends Sanji there for some reason. You can argue that because Brook was the newest member and no one knew he was even on the crew, that Kuma just sent him somewhere random. The simple answer for Luffy is also that Kuma needed to send him to somewhere he knew Haki was really common and Amazon Lily seems to be one of, if not the only place, where it is actively taught. All the warriors in Amazon Lily know Haki, it would be a great place for Luffy to learn.
I still wouldn’t be surprised if Smoker ended up joining the crew by the end, I used to think that idea was stupid and ignorant because he would lead the good guy marines in a civil war at the end of the series but now that Coby seems to be filling that role as well as being Luffy’s Marine rival, and how every good guy Marine just got time to shine and we’re called the future of the marines by Garp except for Smoker and the obvious parallels it would have with Aokiji joining the Black Beard pirates, I’m starting to warm up to the idea
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
The reasoning for Straw Hats destinations during the time-skip is a really minor point and doesn't need addressing.
I disagree heavily on this. While some cases are easy to guess Kuma's reasoning, especially know that we've seen him meeting people who would mentor the Straw Hats in each island, there are a few that require proper explanations.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
We don't know how much Kuma knew about the Straw Hats and their abilities
We know he was at Thriller Bark and witnessed the crew fighting Oars, so he had a pretty good idea of their individual skills, even Brook's.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
But in hindsight, it's weird to send Robin to the bridge when he could've sent her to Dragon directly.
That's a case that needs explanations, but if Baltigo is on the other side of the Red Line, as it appears to be, then sending her to a place he knew the Revolutionaries were about to liberate makes sense. He knew the RA would reckognize Robin, considering she's their "light of the revolution".
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
You can argue that because Brook was the newest member and no one knew he was even on the crew, that Kuma just sent him somewhere random.
As said above, he saw the entire crew in action in Thriller Bark, so he was in a privileged position to know about Brook beforehand.
Besides, there's no randomness in Kuma's choices. Brook's one of the most mysterious because Kuma sent him to a place, but he ended up captured and spent his timeskip in a whole different situation than Kuma could have expected. So, it's a case that we really have no idea of what Kuma was thinking and how he expected Brook to benefit from it.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
The simple answer for Luffy is also that Kuma needed to send him to somewhere he knew Haki was really common and Amazon Lily seems to be one of, if not the only place, where it is actively taught.
I don't think it's such a trivial reason, nor that it makes sense when we apply to it what's the general public's view of the Kuja and Hancock's hostility. You don't send the protagonist to a place he would likely die in or be trapped with no way out.
We know due to SBS that Kuma can only send people to places he visited, so it's a fact that he's been to Amazon Lily at some point, and how that visit went is a story that deserves to be told, or at least mentioned.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
We know due to SBS that Kuma can only send people to places he visited, so it's a fact that he's been to Amazon Lily at some point, and how that visit went is a story that deserves to be told, or at least mentioned.
Amazon Lily is very close to Rusukaina and we saw Kuma witnessing how Luffy trained (fighting beasts) back in Midway Forest. I believe this is the reason why Oda specifically made Kuma look at Luffy while he was training, so the former could extrapolate a good training spot for the latter.
From Kuma's own words, he sent Luffy there because he needed to get stronger, but sending him to Rusukaina outright would've been too dangerous since there were animals there that could defeat Luffy outright. He probably was counting on Rayleigh following after Luffy.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
We know due to SBS that Kuma can only send people to places he visited, so it's a fact that he's been to Amazon Lily at some point, and how that visit went is a story that deserves to be told, or at least mentioned.
Amazon Lily is very close to Rusukaina and we saw Kuma witnessing how Luffy trained (fighting beasts) back in Midway Forest. I believe this is the reason why Oda specifically made Kuma look at Luffy while he was training, so the former could extrapolate a good training spot for the latter.
From Kuma's own words, he sent Luffy there because he needed to get stronger, but sending him to Rusukaina outright would've been too dangerous since there were animals there that could defeat Luffy outright. He probably was counting on Rayleigh following after Luffy.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
We know due to SBS that Kuma can only send people to places he visited, so it's a fact that he's been to Amazon Lily at some point, and how that visit went is a story that deserves to be told, or at least mentioned.
I don't think any of this is required information for the story though. I don't see any big revelation coming from it. At best, this is the answer to an SBS question.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
From Kuma's own words, he sent Luffy there because he needed to get stronger, but sending him to Rusukaina outright would've been too dangerous since there were animals there that could defeat Luffy outright. He probably was counting on Rayleigh following after Luffy.
That's an extremely unlikely possibility. To begin with, Kuma didn't tell Rayleigh where he sent Luffy. Second, Kuma would have no knowledge of Rayleigh's connection to the Kuja. Rayleigh had to deduce Luffy's location himself, and was only able to do so because Hancock took Luffy with her to Impel Down, and Shakky, as a former empress, knew about love sickness and figured Hancock had fallen for Luffy.
Your theory requires Kuma do have knowledge that we know he didn't have. He and Rayleigh didn't know each other beyond their respective reputations, and you assume Kuma wanted to send Luffy somewhere Kuma wasn't shown to known about. Kuma sending Luffy to Amazon Lily proves Kuma was there. Kuma knowing about Rusukaina is unbased speculation. Kuma connecting the dots so he knew Rayleigh would come and take Luffy to Rusukaina is, frankly, quite a stretch.
It's like suggesting Kuma knew the long arms would kidnap Brook so Brook would pray and learn more about his own power.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
I don't think any of this is required information for the story though. I don't see any big revelation coming from it. At best, this is the answer to an SBS question.
How not? If a character, in-story, did something with a purpose, and that purpose wasn't revealed to the audience, then that purpose is very likely important for the story. Double the likelihood when that involves the protagonist's growth and the character behind it knows the protagonist is the "chosen one".
I can see the intention behind Brook's location not being important in the grand scheme of things (though I think it is), but Luffy's location? No way!
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
How not? If a character, in-story, did something with a purpose, and that purpose wasn't revealed to the audience, then that purpose is very likely important for the story. Double the likelihood when that involves the protagonist's growth and the character behind it knows the protagonist is the "chosen one".
I can see the intention behind Brook's location not being important in the grand scheme of things (though I think it is), but Luffy's location? No way!
Because the intentions don't matter that much, it's the outcome. Maybe Kuma planned exactly where to send the Straw Hats for them to learn the skills they needed, or maybe it was just pure chance and coincidence that it lined up for most of them - whatever the answer it doesn't change the outcome that they all got saved and got stronger because of it.
Kuma's intentions could've been simply what the manga has already given us - that he knew they weren't ready for the New World and was saving them. That's it.
If you really need a reason for why he sent Luffy to Amazon Lily specifically, we already have a few. The simplest is that it was the best place to learn all three types of Haki, as all three are present there. Another option is that Kuma knew it was the closest place to Impel Down and was giving Luffy a quick way to get there. A third option is that it's one of the few non-government controlled islands on that side of the red line, and being in the calm belt makes it safer than anywhere else. And finally, it could've just been random and in the heat of the moment.
There are all these explanations, with some making more sense than others, and at least three explaining a 'purpose', but none of them really add anything new to the story. I think your just looking for more purpose than what we've already been told (I assume because you want to learn something special about the Kuja, rather than Kuma himself).
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
If you really need a reason for why he sent Luffy to Amazon Lily specifically, we already have a few. The simplest is that it was the best place to learn all three types of Haki, as all three are present there. Another option is that Kuma knew it was the closest place to Impel Down and was giving Luffy a quick way to get there. A third option is that it's one of the few non-government controlled islands on that side of the red line, and being in the calm belt makes it safer than anywhere else.
Noen of those options make sense unless Kuma had friendship with Hancock. Anything else, and sending Luffy there would be a death sentence or, at least, exile. If you consider Kuma had no personal connection with Hancock, then he sent Luffy to a hostile island in the Calm Belt, one ruled by a Warlord under the Government's payroll.
It's no coincidence that exactly Luffy's and Brook's locations were not shown in Kuma's flashback. That just shows that there's importance in that reasoning.
We also know Kuma in Thriller Bark was taking notes on all of their abilities. He even commented on "Sogeking"'s skills and on Franky being an inferior cyborg. He saw all of them in action, and chose places where they could improve.
And the reasoning behind Brook's and Luffy's locations doesn't matter? The ones skipped in the flashback? The ones that didn't pan out like Kuma could foresee? That's no coincidence. Whatever Kuma knew of those places, it will matter at some point.
You can't see a pattern as clear as this, with 7 out of 9 having reasonings that mattered, and expect the last two, which the story keeps avoiding to explain, won't matter.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
I think your just looking for more purpose than what we've already been told (I assume because you want to learn something special about the Kuja, rather than Kuma himself).
One thing at a time. The Kuja are already important, their lore will come out when at the right moment. For now, I want to know what connections Kuma made with them.
(This just reminds me that, before SBS confirmed Kuma could only send people to places where he's been, I made the very reasonable proposition that Kuma probably went to Amazon Lily at some people, and people were creating all sorts of rationalizations to deny it. "Oh, the chapter didn't show it, so it's clear he hadn't been there". Follow the breadcrumbs!)
I suppose Lilith will get some more time talking to the “other” Straw Hats. I’m sure Franky will have a lot to ask her in particular.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
That's an extremely unlikely possibility.
A lot of Kuma's training plans all relied on some form of miraculous gamble. Sanji could've very well remained an Okama by now if Luffy hadn't freed Ivankov and fought in the war.
To begin with, Kuma didn't tell Rayleigh where he sent Luffy.
"I found out the direction Luffy was sent from the man who blasted him earlier"
That information alone implies Kuma wanted Rayleigh to come after Luffy. Otherwise, why share that information?
Second, Kuma would have no knowledge of Rayleigh's connection to the Kuja.
He lived with Shakky, who herself was a Kuja Empress. 2+2.
Like, Kuma is not some youngster. He likely was aware of Shakuyaku through newspapers back when he was a twenty-something, just like with Dragon.
Now sure, Rayleigh did need to deduce a few of Luffy's steps, but that's mostly irrelevant. Kuma's primary goal was sending Luffy to a place where he could grow stronger. He likely gambled on Luffy finding out about Rusukaina from Rayleigh, just like how he gambled on Chopper finding out about the Torino's medicinal knowledge even though Chopper was already on his way back.
Kuma would've needed to foresee Luffy taking that photo and sending the 3D2Y message for his plan to work when you think about it, which is an insane amount of foresight.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
He did.
"I found out the direction Luffy was sent from the man who blasted him earlier" (official translation, by the way)
That information alone implies Kuma wanted Rayleigh to come after Luffy. Otherwise, why share that information?
Read the entire rest of the conversation, please. Rayleigh had to gather many hints to pinpoint where Luffy went.
You can say that the last point was about Shakky figuring out where Luffy went after Marineford, so it wasn't part of Rayleigh's deduction of where Kuma sent Luffy. But still, Rayleigh had to figure out Luffy's destination.
Also, if even Rayleigh, who personally knew Hancock, thought it was farfetched that she would ally with a man, then we really need to know why Kuma chose to send Luffy to Amazon Lily, because he either has personal information on Hancock that even Rayleigh hadn't or he was just willing to risk Luffy's live on a wild bet.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Now sure, Rayleigh did need to deduce a few of Luffy's steps, but that's mostly irrelevant.
It's NOT irrelevant. You say it is just because it breaks your entire argument, so you choose to make it "irrelevant", but that's not how theories work. You have to shape your theory to fit with the clues, not force the clues into fitting in your theory.
If Kuma had told Rayleigh where Luffy was, there would be no need for Rayleigh to trace Luffy's route. Rayleigh gathered clues to figure out Luffy's destination, ergo he wasn't told where Luffy was sent.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
It's NOT irrelevant. You say it is just because it breaks your entire argument.
This is rich from the guy whose entire argument is based on a desperate wishing for Hancock to be more relevant than she is.
(Yeah, yeah, pull the ad hominem card or whatever. I'm within my right to criticize your reasoning when it's obviously biased)
Like, the argument works from the information we know in-story.
This to me feels like something who would be relegated to SBS if Oda were asked about it. At the very least it's not something Oda thought was important to show in Kuma's memories.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
He shared some details with Rayleigh, like the direction he sent Luffy.
Why not share the entire info, then? "Oh, Kuma wanted Rayleigh to do this thing but chose to not give Rayleigh the information needed for that"
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Kuma was likely on Sabaody long enough to deduce Rayleigh had a relationship with the Kuja through Shakky.
That's assuming that:
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Kuma did some miraculous roll dice because the amount of coincidences that would lead to Luffy being trained by Rayleigh at Rusukaina was nearly equal to all other SH.
That's absurdly contrived. So, Kuma sends each Straw Hat to where they can get stronger, but Luffy, the chosen one, is sent to a place he's endangered, with a extremely contrived plan so that eventually another person who Kuma wouldn't fully inform would come, rescue him and train him?
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Zoro could've very well escaped Kuraigana before Mihawk arrived from the war.
Yes, because plans have a chance to fail. Kuma still sent Zoro to the right place hoping for the best. He didn't send him to the wrong place hoping a lot of factors out of his control would lead Zoro to the right place.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Sanji could've remained an Okama if Ivankov hadn't been freed and Luffy hadn't sent his message.
Sanji being a okama or not does not matter at all to this argument. Kuma sent him to the right place for him to train, that's what matters, and Ivankov wasn't needed, because the point was about defeating the 99 okama masters for their recipes. Sure, it could fail, but, again, Sanji was in the right place. Kuma didn't send him to the wrong place hoping a series of coincidences would lead him to the right place.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Luffy not sending his message would've also led to Nami, Robin and a few others to have just returned to Sabaody again.
Yeah, but, again, they were all sent to the right place. What happens in those places is outside Kuma's power, but he sent them to the right places.
By the way, the reason they all were in a hurry to leave was because Luffy went to Marineford, something Kuma didn't plan, so they saw the news and got desperate. Likewise, Rayleigh only figured out where Luffy was because Luffy went to Marineford.
It's pretty obvious that Kuma's hopes for Luffy and Brook didn't pan out. Which is why it's something the story may expand upon.
These things all being outside Kuma's power just shows how ridiculous is the idea that he planned a series of extra steps for Luffy to take.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
In a way, all of Kuma's plan relied on Rayleigh having the idea to send a message to begin with.
And then Kuma fails to inform Rayleigh of his plan. This theory is absurd.
Rayleigh found Luffy on his own.
Rayleigh was the one with the idea of the 2 years of training. Kuma had no time, he just sent the Straw Hats to the right places and hoped for the best.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Why not share the entire info, then? "Oh, Kuma wanted Rayleigh to do this thing but chose to not give Rayleigh the information needed for that"
Kuma couldn't really risk staying too long with Rayleigh, especially with Kizaru and Sentomaru around.
He had very little time to do what he wanted. Like you said, he gave the minimum information and hoped for the best. Just sending people to the right place is already a gamble to begin with, so you calling me out for saying this whole plan was terribly unlikely is just the pot calling the kettle black.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Kuma couldn't really risk staying too long with Rayleigh
That's bullshit. "I sent Luffy to Amazon Lily. I need you to go for him and train him. Can you do that?"
That's like 15 seconds. And keep in mind that Kuma even visited Rayleigh to explain himself after the fight.
Besides, the point is: "Why Amazon Lily?". Why Kuma chose that and not, say, some random island near Sabaody Rayleigh could reach in a day or so?
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Kuma couldn't really risk staying too long with Rayleigh
That's bullshit. "I sent Luffy to Amazon Lily. I need you to go for him and train him. Can you do that?"
That's like 15 seconds.
Kuma's whole plan is ridden with bullshit foresight lol. Glad we agree with that.
Kuma having a secret relationship with the Kuja does not suddenly mean it was good or anything. In the end, you're just applying your own biases to an already ridiculous situation.
Besides, the point is: "Why Amazon Lily?". Why Kuma chose that and not, say, some random island near Sabaody Rayleigh could reach in a day or so?
Because Rusukaina is nearby and it provides the perfect training ground for Luffy.
Obviously, Kuma would not send Luffy there without some form of guide first. He knew Herakles was at Boin Archipelago for example, so the risk of Usopp getting gobbled down was minimized because he had a local expert to guide him.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Kuma having a secret relationship with the Kuja does not suddenly mean it was good or anything.
It was good enough for him to have been in Amazon Lily and think that was the right place to send Luffy to.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
It was good enough for him to have been in Amazon Lily and think that was the right place to send Luffy to.
Again, because Rusukaina was nearby.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Again, because Rusukaina was nearby.
We don't even know if Kuma knew Rusukaina. Besides, from all we know, Rusukaina was Rayleigh's idea. There's exactly zero hints that Kuma planned for Luffy to train there.
Besides, if the point is for Rayleigh to find Luffy and bring him to Rusukaina, then distance does not matter, putting Luffy in a place easy for Rayleigh to reach is way more important.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Besides, if the point is for Rayleigh to find Luffy and bring him to Rusukaina, then distance does not matter, putting Luffy in a place easy for Rayleigh to reach is way more important.
Amazon Lily was that place? It's established to be near Sabaody. And Rayleigh knows how to reach it. He doesn't need a log pose for example due to prior experience. It's also a place that Marines have little influence over.
Like I said before, Kuma could've just put 2+2 when he observed Luffy and co. running away with Rayleigh to Shakky's Bar after the Charlos punch. Kuma was obviously monitoring the SH from that point on, so he could have reasonably learned about Ray and Shakky.
So with that in mind, Amazon Lily:
All those factors, if anything, make it a rather attractive location for Kuma to send Luffy towards. Kuma's whole plan is already ridden with "all according to keikaku" energy and an insane amount of luck and good faith, so what's so hard to believe that Amazon Lily was chosen because it was an easy hub for Luffy's training?
And this whole argument is built on in-story facts and reasonable assumptions from the part of characters (Kuma could've reasonably know about Shakky since Gloriosa was still active when he was a kid. Any newspaper could've told him about Empress Shakuyaku, Gloriosa's sucessor after the fall of Rocks.). So far, there is absolutely NOTHING in the story suggesting That Amazon Lily is personally important for Kuma besides your own biases towards Hancock.
And no, calling out your obvious liking for Hancock is NOT an ad hominem. Bias is a logical fallacy that merits calling out, especially when it's used as a crux for arguments about Oda preparing a secret Kuma x Kuja flashback.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Amazon Lily was that place? It's established to be near Sabaody. And Rayleigh knows how to reach it. He doesn't need a log pose for example due to prior experience. It's also a place that Marines have little influence over.
Amazon Lily is NOT close to Sabaody. It was established to take seven days to travel between them.
Kuma had no way to be certain Rayleigh could sail to Amazon Lily. Being martied o a former empress, ad assuming Kuma knew who Shakky was, is not the same as knowing Rayleigh knew where Amazon Lily was and had the means to sail there. Heck, Kuma didn’t know Rayleigh personally and shouldn’t even be sure if Rayleigh would be willing to do all that.
It’s the domain of a man-hating Warlord. Marines having little influence matters little if the ruler is known to be even worse than the marines. Luffy could have ended as a statue. Not even Rayleigh, who knew Hancock personally, thought she would harbor Luffy.
Let’s boil down our theories, shall we?
Mine:
Simple, concise, logical. Now I want to know “whatever happened there”.
Yours:
Sorry, your theory can’t even stand on its own legs. You have to assume Kuma knew personal things about Rayleigh, that he knew of Rusukaina, that he knew Rayleigh would deduce Luffy’s location by himself. Plus, it goes against what Kuma did to the other Straw Hats, which he sent to the right places directly.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Sorry, your theory can’t even stand on its own legs. You have to assume Kuma knew personal things about Rayleigh, that he knew of Rusukaina, that he knew Rayleigh would deduce Luffy’s location by himself. Plus, it goes against what Kuma did to the other Straw Hats, which he sent to the right places directly.
Congratulations. You're now trying to make Kuma's plan simple when it wasn't.
So you think Kuma couldn't deduce a few things about Rayleigh and Shakky when his whole plan was about sending the SH to the right places after... deducing a few things about them? What is this stupid double standard?
Nevermind that Shakky wasn't particularly obscure. It's a fact Garp chased her. And I don't need to talk about Rayleigh's fame. If we can believe Kuma knew just enough about the SH, then we can believe he knows something or two about Rayleigh and Shakuyaku, who are legends of their own.
Rusukaina alone would be enough to make Amazon Lily the "right place", because it gave Luffy a personal training ground with creatures far stronger than he is, and Kuma KNEW that. However, Kuma couldn't really send Luffy directly there and leave him alone, so Rayleigh would've been the best bet. Kuma directly saw Rayleigh joining forces with the SH in order to escape the Auctioning House, so he had reason to believe the Dark King could help Luffy further.
In other words, Kuma's WHOLE PLAN is based on assumptions, luck and good faith, so you cannot call out Kuma making more reasonable assumptions as "absurd". It's easy to say he sent the SH to "the right places", but that couldn't be done simply. He had to have had some idea about their fighting styles, personalities, occupations and such. He only knew about Zoro and Sanji's character personally before Sabaody.
In fact, how does Kuma even know Chopper was a doctor and not just a pet? The only time he could've know that was during the Sabaody Incident. We can then assume Kuma thought Chopper was the doctor when he saw him treating Hachi. That's a reasonable assumption based on the fact he was there watching the SH, just like how Rayleigh being Shakky's spouse was another thing he could've learned.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Congratulations. You're now trying to make Kuma's plan simple when it wasn't.
Of course it was. He sent them to the best places he could think for them. Simple, and it fits 7 out of 9 cases, two cases pending.
So you think Kuma couldn't deduce a few things about Rayleigh and Shakky when his whole plan was about sending the SH to the right places after... deducing a few things about them? What is this stupid double standard?
Except the story showed Kuma witnessing and even noting the SH’s skills in Thriller Bark, while there’s nothing in the story about Kuma being particularly knowledgeable about Rayleigh and especially Shakky.
You are trying to twist what we know with what you want to have happened, but they are not the same.
Nevermind that Shakky wasn't particularly obscure. It's a fact Garp chased her. And I don't need to talk about Rayleigh's fame. If we can believe Kuma knew just enough about the SH, then we can believe he knows something or two about Rayleigh and Shakuyaku, who are legends of their own.
Shakky being famous 40 years ago doesn’t make it any more likely that Kuma is particularly knowledgeable about her. The story does not even hint at him knowing anything about her.
Rusukaina alone would be enough to make Amazon Lily the "right place", because it gave Luffy a personal training ground with creatures far stronger than he is, and Kuma KNEW that.
Oh, Kuma KNEW that? If it’s fact, then Prove it!
However, Kuma couldn't really send Luffy directly there and leave him alone
Why not? Just because Luffy couldn’t beat some of the beasts there doesn’t mean he can’t survive long enough until Rayleigh arrives.
Sending him to Amazon Lily was just as dangerous. Luffy could end up as a stone statue long before anyone could come to help.
so Rayleigh would've been the best bet. Kuma directly saw Rayleigh joining forces with the SH in order to escape the Auctioning House, so he had reason to believe the Dark King could help Luffy further.
Seeing Rayleigh help the Straw Hats where he lives and expecting him, a retired old man, to take a week-long journey to the most dangerous sea in the world are two very different things.
A proposition made even worse by the fact that Kuma didn’t tell Rayleigh where he sent Luffy.
I assume Kuma sent Brooke to that kingdom because it was a place where people worshipped the devil, and so wouldn’t be scared of seeing a live skeleton. That’s probably what the way he thought of keeping Brooke safe. But that’s also me trying to find some logic to something I don’t think will be explained in a story. Maybe we can work together to send a letter to Oda asking about Amazon Lilly and solve this issue.
@Chams-0 I wouldn’t be surprised if the explanation for Brook was as simple as that. The bigger deal is Luffy’s, since he’s Kuma’s promised hero. One would expect extra care on where Kuma would send him.
The simplest answer is that he knew Luffy would be safe there. The problem is how he would come to that conclusion. I have theories, but that’s going deeper into speculation.
@Deicide Brooks is deffo more interesting than Luffy. We know Kuma has been to Amazon Lily but we don't know how much he knows. He may have been unaware that men weren't allowed as he had been there himself (possibly they allowed him because he was a Warlord at the time and it was government business). But again, I don't think this is information that important. At most it could mean Hancock and Kuma got along (perhaps because they were both slaves who escaped).
As for Brook, the place he got sent to was ravished by war. Maybe it wasn't like that when Kuma went? Brook got taken away so whatever Kuma's thoughts were for sending Brook don't matter in the long run as Brook didn't stay there.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Deicide Brooks is deffo more interesting than Luffy. We know Kuma has been to Amazon Lily but we don't know how much he knows. He may have been unaware that men weren't allowed as he had been there himself (possibly they allowed him because he was a Warlord at the time and it was government business). But again, I don't think this is information that important. At most it could mean Hancock and Kuma got along (perhaps because they were both slaves who escaped).
As for Brook, the place he got sent to was ravished by war. Maybe it wasn't like that when Kuma went? Brook got taken away so whatever Kuma's thoughts were for sending Brook don't matter in the long run as Brook didn't stay there.
Which is weird, since Kuma and Hancock were right next to each other at Marineford, but Hancock doesn’t comment anything about him.
@black-leg-jex you can’t ignore Hancock’s personality when making a theory. It makes no sense for Kuma to visit Anazon Lily as a Warlord because Hancock didn’t give two shits to her responsibilities as a Warlord.
The idea that Kuma went there as a government envoy makes no sense. It would actually make Hancock to seem completely unreasonable and Amazon Lily to look as unsafe as possible.
I feel like that's stretching it. We know Kuma has gone there. Maybe he stepped on the island, couldn't get in and left. Maybe he arrived while Hancock was out and left. Kuma can just warp into a territory, he did it with Moria.
And still, I don't see what kind of big story impact Kuma knowing Hancock beforehand would have. How does this affect the wider plot? At this point, that's what is needed for a story beat like this to be brought up. We know Oda isn't against doing SBS lore drops nowadays.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
We know Kuma has gone there.
Fun fact: when I first proposed that Kuma went to Amazon Lily at some point, we didn't have neither Chapter 1099 nor the SBS. People said that the idea was bullshit and denied it.
Then Ch 1099 came out and I pointed it: see? Kuma visited the islands he sent the Straw Hats to! People still treated the idea as bullshit and said that because it wasn't shown in the chapter it didn't happen.
Then the SBS came out, and now people can't deny it, so instead they deny the importance of it.
Theories are about gathering facts and drawing connections. If there's a connection between Kuma and Hancock, however small it may be, there's a potential story there.
People would call bullshit if someone suggested Shakky was the former former empress. "No, it can't be! The chapter said the empress died!".
People would call bullshit if someone suggested Rayleigh had a connection to Hancock. "No, it can't be! The chapters say clearly she hates all men!". And yet they shared a big connection, and later that connection came back twice to influence the story.
Connections matter, especially when the story goes out of its way to keep them hidden. Oda had Kuma send Luffy to Amazon Lily without explanation, hid Kuma's visit to Amazon Lily in Kuma's flashback, and even had Hancock not interested in the new Warlord because, very likely, she would reckognize him had she read the news. Hancock also was particularly angry at the pacifistas in Marineford, to the point Oda had to make a point of Sentomaru saying she was destroying them left and right while keeping her actions off-screen.
This connection is particularly interesting because, like with Rayleigh, it's completely unexpected because of Hancock's personality and how she's supposed to be an isolationist and misoginist, but she and Kuma have a lot in common.
Let's not forget Hancock's admiration at Fisher Tiger for freeing slaves or for Luffy for punching a Celestial Dragon. Nor that Gloriosa and Kuma were both in God Valley when young Kuma freed hundreds of slaves.
It's not hard to trace possible connections given all that.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
And still, I don't see what kind of big story impact Kuma knowing Hancock beforehand would have.
You talk as if Oda modus operandi didn't involve establishing connections that end up as plot twists or plot points later. If there's a connection, there's a potential story for it in the future. Nothing is certain, but the possibility is there.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
How does this affect the wider plot?
That's not up to me to answer. I can make guesses at best. But these things usually get important when we least expect.
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
We know Oda isn't against doing SBS lore drops nowadays.
Sure, but usually he does so when they won't spoil the main story. It's very likely he got lots of questions about Kuma's intentions for the crew. At least so far, none was selected for a SBS, so the questions and the potential remain.
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Sure, but usually he does so when they won't spoil the main story. It's very likely he got lots of questions about Kuma's intentions for the crew. At least so far, none was selected for a SBS, so the questions and the potential remain.
It feels like a SBS thing because Hancock and her tribe are rather unimportant right now. And will likely remain that way until the final conflict.
If Zoro's family is considered unimportant enough to not even be a major focus on Wano, then I don't see Oda dedicating much else for the Kuja, who already their time to showcase their culture and ways of living. Oda is probably more concerned about the current mystery races like Lunarians, Three-Eyes and Buccaneers that are more directly tied to the current Nika mythology.
Like, just look at Hancock's predecessor. Oda didn't need to spend time on a real story there. He just had a name and a face and called it a day.
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
feels like a SBS thing because Hancock and her tribe are rather unimportant right now.
"Right now"
@King-Cannon said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
And will likely remain that way until the final conflict.
They've actually been getting more importance since Wano ended, with the Shakky reveal, then Gloriosa in Rocks, and likely connection to Kuma. They may also be related to Nefertari Lily, though that's just pure speculation right now. When One Piece starts spreading dots like that, it's usually to connect them into a big reveal later.
Do you think Caribou will become a titanic captain because of how valuable his information is? He could even face off against Shanks Rockstar in the inevitable clash between shanks and Black Beard
Maybe Straw Hats will get an apprentice like Shanks and Buggy
I disagree that the Kuja are going to be unimportant until the final arc. There's deffo something with them. They are one poneglyph away from being on the same level of importance to the void century as fishmen, minks, Wano, skypeians and giants are. Hancock also has conquers Haki which is important.
But I don't think the Kuma connection is important. The only plot relevance it currently shows is that he went to the island once and figured it would be a good place to send Luffy for training. Anything beyond that thought is just wishful thinking.
