Chapter 834: My Dream
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What fruit would that be?
He's obviously the 'Vergo has a metal DF guy' from PH/early DR threads :)
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I want to say I also remember him stating explicitly that he didn't have a devil fruit. But I'm not sure if I'm not confusing him with Sentomaru.
Vergo could have forgot to mention he isnt(?) devil fruit user. Same as he forgot he is not a swordsman.
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He's obviously the 'Vergo has a metal DF guy' from PH/early DR threads :)
Oh how can you suspect me. Oh how.
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Color spreads Oda counts Luffy as 1. In story he counts starting with Zoro.
Monet wasn't stabbed in the heart. We clearly see the spike embedded in the ground next to it in the very next chapter. Oda played the camera angles and drama to make it look like a direct stab, but Ceaser only glanced the edge of it. The shock of that impact (as seen with Smoker, Law, and Ceaser) combined with Monet's prior injuries from Tashigi (she was already coughing blood after that) caused her to faint then.
Aside from that, she is a logia and so would be fine against any of the outside forces.
Vergo is an established defensive haki user that can protext himself, and explosions have never once hurt anyone in One Piece.Add in the fact that Sugar is Monet's sister and made zero mention at all of regret or wanting revenge over her "death" (A piece of drama Oda normally would have milked like crazy, rather than just offhand mentioning in an SBS) means that they'll be alive and well once we get to the Doflamingo crew cover story, which will probably be the next one… it was mostly delayed for the sake of Dresserossa, which was a very long arc, otherwise we would have seen them alive a year ago instead of a Jinbe coverstory or yet another catch up on family members.
Oda never kills a character when them fainting will do the same job storywise. Very early in the series he allowed minor deaths, but once he came to understand his influence and his target audience, he backed off. He hasn't casually killed anyone since Alabasta.
(The anime extrapolated and made the heart stab a clear and direct shot... but the anime doesn't adapt cover stories anyway so it doesn't matter, Monet is unlikely to appear in the main story again for a decade anyhow. The anime ALSO added her having her finger on the button and not pressing it for like 3 solid minutes for no reason.)
As for other characters that were obviously dead, Sabo and Bon Kurei are excellent example of people assumed dead that obviously weren't and we knew they were alive without evidence long before they actually appeared on camera again, and Bellamy was dead for 12 years before he came back.
While you might be right (I'll have to look again cuz I could have sworn that what you said wasn't that way, and that Virgo and Monet clearly died) I do want to point out Bin Kurei and Sabo always gave hints they were alive from the very beginning, they were very clearly not dead. So anyone whom ever thought they were dead, was clearly not paying enough attention.
I once again say that the only death fake out that has ever been ridiculous and out of left field was Pell from Alabasta. He should have died, and it jumped the shark on his survival. Do you have a link for proof of what you claim about him missing Monet's heart?
Also I only read the manga and watches random clips of the anime. I stopped consistently Watching the anime after part 1 of One Piece ended. Cuz I knew that I hated the first arc of part 2 in the manga, knew I hated Fishman Island in the manga, found the manga version of Punk Hazard to just be kind of okay…and that the anime's pacing had turned unbearble. (I tolerated it in anime version Enis Lobby, Thriller Bark, and Whitebeard War cuz I loved those arcs.) So I'm just speaking that in the manga I don't recall it ever being clear that he would somehow missed stabbing her heart. I do realize she's a logia but I wasn't sure if her heart being in that cube might get around that and I assumed it could because Law's cube was around that heart. I could be wrong, I suppose.
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While you might be right (I'll have to look again cuz I could have sworn that what you said wasn't that way, and that Virgo and Monet clearly died) I do want to point out Bin Kurei and Sabo always gave hints they were alive from the very beginning, they were very clearly not dead. So anyone whom ever thought they were dead, was clearly not paying enough attention.
I once again say that the only death fake out that has ever been ridiculous and out of left field was Pell from Alabasta. He should have died, and it jumped the shark on his survival.
I think that you're forgetting about Pagaya, Conis' father, from the Skypiea arc.
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The guy literally survived a directly overhead El Thor from Enel while trying to save one of Enel's soldiers in front of his daughter. The attack that kept getting hyped up to instantly kill anyone in its wake, not to mention that Enel was OHKO'ing everyone in the arc with casual lightning attacks except for Luffy. And the guy comes back, completely uninjured and on his boat again. I would even put that as being slightly more ridiculous than Pell because at least he got some wounds and had to be medically treated.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
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@Count:
I think that you're forgetting about Pagaya, Conis' father, from the Skypiea arc.
! http://ami.animecharactersdatabase.com/uploads/chars/5457-106734080.jpg
The guy literally survived a directly overhead El Thor from Enel while trying to save one of Enel's soldiers in front of his daughter. The attack that kept getting hyped up to instantly kill anyone in its wake, not to mention that Enel was OHKO'ing everyone in the arc with casual lightning attacks except for Luffy. And the guy comes back, completely uninjured and on his boat again. I would even put that as being slightly more ridiculous than Pell because at least he got some wounds and had to be medically treated.
IIRC, We later found out that pagaya had jumped out of the island. A cheap way out, but nowhere near the levels of Pell surviving.
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@Monkey:
Then you haven't seen much of One Piece.
LOL. Really dude? Okay, with that rude absurdity out of the way..let's get to genuinely answering the rest of your post.
By applying the same ridiculous cartoon human physics and damage standards the series has had since virtually the start.
True, it's always had those absurdities, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far, even with that in mind. Normally, One Piece does stretch that quite a bit, but there are moments where it has gone too far. Though the only one I recall being truly that bad was Pell.
The heart thing is semi-unique and I can forgive a person for thinking Oda might have established a death based just on the method (minus all context of course).
But an explosion? Really? That means nothing whatsoever in One Piece.I know, I know. I'm not saying explosions are hard to survive though. I'm aware of people surviving them. I'm saying that the explosion just is there as an extra measure on top of the original ones stated. Think of it like kicking someone when they are down. A kick alone doesn't hurt a One Piece character. But someone on the brink of death being kicked in the face….that's arguably different. That was my point, more or less.
You're making great arguments for a different manga. None of this matters.
The reason the Pell example is so bad and infamous isn't what was survived. It was that the event itself was a really emotional and powerful sacrifice. That turned out to not be a sacrifice at all. It made the readers feel cheated emotionally.
Fair enough to an extent. I still think my point stands regardless though.
Ok.
One Piece Logic: Because that's how Oda works and always has.The way the author has behaved throughout the ENTIRE 80+ volumes is my evidence.
Exceptions made for: flashbacks, the marineford battle deaths, incredibly rare and even still suspect stuff like Roshio and Mr.11.
Asking for some sort of direct evidence means you fundamentally do not understand what you're doing. And have no idea what context even is.
But of course you assume a context that doesn't exist so maybe this explains things. The context that One Piece has "been darker recently". Which of course it hasn't.It has started to show signs, I'm not saying it truly has. I'm really getting tired of this argument as the way you are responding to me is just..rude. That said, in the past chapters..I'd argue they clearly didn't die. Bon Kurei was simply defending the Strawhats, no evidence he died. Both times even. Sabo was clearly hinted to have been brought aboard by Dragon in the flashback. I'd argue that One Piece's survivals and fake out deaths have always been obvious for me up until lately. So these many many years are looked at differently to me than you describe, as the supposed deaths never fooled me. So if I am indeed wrong, this would be the first time I was fooled in this way, aside from Pell. That's all I'm saying. That it's pretty damn convincing even if I AM wrong…though I guess we will see, perhaps?
No one died. In this same arc where a horrifying toxic gas was covering people in creepy poison shells… then after the fighting was over all those people were rescued because the gas just so happened to have a long time frame for actually killing people lol. Wow so dark.
That was intended to be somewhat dark. I know the manga has always had dark moments (Thriller Bark Arc itself, anyone?). Hell, the concept of experimenting on Children is dark. If you are saying One Piece isn't ever dark…you are way off base in that regard. You saying it hasn't gotten darker, we can argue about. But if you are trying to imply One Piece hasn't ever been dark....lol I don't know what to tell you but you are very delusional. All that said, yeah..it's not as dark as some series, which is what I love about One Piece and is what started this whole discussion.
Which of course has nothing to do with pirates, and everything to with Oda. Which of course further means that it's completely meaningless when it's some other "theme" because the author is still the same author.
Sure, if we follow your logic of randomly assuming Oda doesn't have pirates killing people because….??
When has Oda ever portrayed ANYTHING in the same clear cut way the real world does. And why would he suddenly completely randomly have a realistic hardcore depiction of the mafia....that already doesn't exist because there is nothing realistic and not cartoony about Capone and his gang. For christs sake, we just saw Capone's baby boy, and the baby boy looks like a literal cartoon mafia baby complete with stubble lol.
Alright, alright fair enough. It's not just the pirates or marines..this series in general has a lot of people not dying that much and in general can be rather "cartoony", as you put it.. You win that part of the argument.
Psst, hey, the army in question is the Marines.
Amazing how at no point do you established why Oda would do something different with mafia characters, who are also pirates. This is an incredibly inane thing to think he's doing.
You are completely illiterate to drama and narrative if you read that Pekoms scene and thought that was a raise the stakes death scene.
I'm a novelist and a long time reader of novels, studied journalism to some extent, and watch various shows most of my life. But sure, think i don't understand drama or narrative. That said, even if he survives, it's clearly meant to be a situation to SEEM like the stakes are raised because from a narrative perspective, Yonko are bigger foes than we have ever seen the Strawhats face before (With rare possible exceptions) So it makes sense that a story would want to show that, much like the second act of a theater stage play or movie. Empire Strikes back comes to mind as a strong example of an entire movie that does that lol. But sure…I have no idea what I am talking about. (lol) NEXT.
The mafia theme does not exist. There is no mafia theme. There is a single pirate crew that has a mafia theme. It is not leaking out and entering the story in any way at all. In fact beyond the visuals that pirate crew barely even has a mafia theme. It's just their style, like Apoo has music, Kuro had cats, and Buggy has clowns.
You actually might be correct there, to some extent or another.
Given her ability is not fully understood I would be extremely careful to say this. But you don't seem to be careful in general with assumptions.
Sick burn…that wasn't warranted. Can't we have a civil discussion without having childish fighting thrown into the mix? lol
@Count:
I think that you're forgetting about Pagaya, Conis' father, from the Skypiea arc.
! http://ami.animecharactersdatabase.com/uploads/chars/5457-106734080.jpg
The guy literally survived a directly overhead El Thor from Enel while trying to save one of Enel's soldiers in front of his daughter. The attack that kept getting hyped up to instantly kill anyone in its wake, not to mention that Enel was OHKO'ing everyone in the arc with casual lightning attacks except for Luffy. And the guy comes back, completely uninjured and on his boat again. I would even put that as being slightly more ridiculous than Pell because at least he got some wounds and had to be medically treated.
I guess I did forget about him. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
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IIRC, We later found out that pagaya had jumped out of the island. A cheap way out, but nowhere near the levels of Pell surviving.
Oh yeah lol. Still way too convenient though.
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Do you have a link for proof of what you claim about him missing Monet's heart?
No matter how much drama Oda put into the chapter in terms of visual cues and what seemed to happen, the aftermath shows plain as day that Ceaser missed. So we have to conclude he only jolted it and it was her earlier injuries combiend with that shock that made her faint. Maybe he hit the edge of the heart and it slid, I dunno. But he did not impale it.
(Unless you want to claim he stabbed it, then pulled the shard out, and then for some reason stabbed the ground hard enough to have it stick straight up)Similar to the pirate at Sabondy that committed suicide by biting off his tongue, was declared dead by doctors, given a moment of silence, and was then fine int he background of the next chapter.
I know, I know. I'm not saying explosions are hard to survive though. I'm aware of people surviving them. I'm saying that the explosion just is there as an extra measure on top of the original ones stated. Think of it like kicking someone when they are down. A kick alone doesn't hurt a One Piece character. But someone on the brink of death being kicked in the face….that's arguably different. That was my point, more or less.
On sabondy, a slave that was for all appearances completely normal standard human, had his neck collar explode, was shot, and then he was peed on by a dog and left for dead. And he was still fine.
Explosions mean nothing in OP.
WHich makes the drama around Sanji's explosive handcuffs lessened a little, but I guess we can assume they're delicate so just surviving isn't enough.
Bon Kurei was simply defending the Strawhats, no evidence he died. Both times even. Sabo was clearly hinted to have been brought aboard by Dragon in the flashback. I'd argue that One Piece's survivals and fake out deaths have always been obvious for me up until lately. So these many many years are looked at differently to me than you describe, as the supposed deaths never fooled me. So if I am indeed wrong, this would be the first time I was fooled in this way, aside from Pell. That's all I'm saying. That it's pretty damn convincing even if I AM wrong…though I guess we will see, perhaps?
Bon Kurei was left up against Magellan, who had shown zero qualms about going all out and killing up until then, given a brave heroic sacrifice moment, and all the heroes cried for him and acted like he had died (aside from Luffy that swore he hadn't). Most of us knew that, of course he isn't dead, but a lot of people refused to believe it until the cover story a year later. ANd here's the thing. If Luffy had managed to save Ace, Bon Kurei just might actually have died, since that sacrifice would have meant something. But, Ace died, and it was left impotent and meaningless, so he got to live. It's how it works.
Similarly with Sabo. He was in a flashback, shot by the nobles, someone "witnessed" his death, and characters mourned him, and he didn't show up to meet Luffy or Ace for the next ten years. But still, the very chapter it happened, many of us said "Of course hes not dead, Oda didn't milk the drama enough for that." It wasn't until a couple chapters later that it backtracked and showed Dragon picking up someone, and even then some folks still insisted he was dead (the databook said so!) for years, even after the three sake cups were left at Ace's grave. It wasn't Dragon picking up someone a couple chapters later that clued us in, it was how Oda handles things and does his storytelling. If you thought the Dragon bit was the clue and not how Oda handled the scene, you probably read those several chapters all at once in one sitting instead of over the course of a month. Because it was weeks before that part happened.
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LOL. Really dude? Okay, with that rude absurdity out of the way..let's get to genuinely answering the rest of your post.
It's the only logical conclusion. That you maybe have read it once, and kinda quickly or something. Or when reading it you were already super familiar with the plot and stuff like that and experienced next to no "Man, that dude surely died" of the dozens and dozens of characters who would in any other series be dead as heck from nearly every single arc. Especially Skypiea as is being noted by others. You're exhibiting classic hindsight bias, where you talk about the older arcs like you are in some way unacquainted with them in the same way you are with Punk Hazard and onward. Like everything about what happened after them is obvious, but no not this time for…reasons.
True, it's always had those absurdities, but suspension of disbelief only goes so far,
Suspension of disbelief with death not happening is a line Oda violated and crossed and pissed on long long ago countless times over and over. The idea that someone is caught up with this series without long ago themselves having made peace with this side of Oda is precisely why I'm saying you barely seem familiar with One Piece at all.
It's like someone complaining about the art style being strange and different, yet somehow being caught up with Totland. It's the comment of someone who just started.
I find it baffling that you never read through Skypiea for instance and rolled your eyes at pretty much absolutely everyone imaginable who got wiped out by Ener being alive, even though Ener and Aisa both were talking about their "voices" going silent.
My theory here again is you had speed reading of earlier stuff, and only on catching up are you paying closer attention.I'm saying that the explosion just is there as an extra measure on top of the original ones stated. Think of it like kicking someone when they are down. A kick alone doesn't hurt a One Piece character. But someone on the brink of death being kicked in the face….that's arguably different. That was my point, more or less.
That's a really bad point since this is One Piece and Oda's weirdness isn't a matter of math or whatever you're trying to say here. He doesn't change his bizarre standards just because he inflicted more on a character.
I still think my point stands regardless though.
You can't say my point about nothing your saying mattering is fair, and then still think your point stands.
It has started to show signs,
No it hasn't whatsoever.
This is one of those ultimate signs of people who sped read the earlier stuff. It's far too amnesiac for me to think anything else.
People have been claiming "new X arc signals darker One Piece" since as far back as I can remember. And it has always always been nonsense. I think the only major tonal adjustments that ever actually occurred is the Arlong Arc. Because it showed how emotionally heavy Oda COULD go, it didn't fundamentally change the series, it just showed Oda had no qualms of heavy drama. It also was the arc where Oda really tested just how connected the readers felt to his cast for the first time, and its no wonder why so many people cite it as a major moment where they became or REALIZED they were hooked.
And lest we forget that was SEVENTY volumes ago.I'm really getting tired of this argument as the way you are responding to me is just..rude.
What's tiring is people somehow still insisting that "no THIS time One Piece will become darker" and also "no THIS time Oda will break with his bizarre character death hang-ups". Even over a decade of material after they should have gotten over the latter.
That said, in the past chapters..I'd argue they clearly didn't die.
Some were clear, some were not. Nothing about Monet or especially Vergo is any different from the massive backlog of seeming deaths.
Sabo was clearly hinted to have been brought aboard by Dragon in the flashback.
Tell that to the countless fools who thought otherwise. And at least in Sabo's case that was a flashback, unlike the present timeframe, where arguing that two mooks died is in some ways even more dense than the Sabo people.
I'd argue that One Piece's survivals and fake out deaths have always been obvious for me up until lately.
Which is how I know you sped read.
So these many many years are looked at differently to me than you describe, as the supposed deaths never fooled me.
But you're being fooled right now. So rather than being some super sleuth who knew ALL those (lol if you think its only Mr. 2 and Sabo) where phony deaths, you're someone who was barely paying attention. You really have no right at all to act superior to people fooled back then.
That was intended to be somewhat dark.
In a long long long list of things Oda has intended to be dark that go back to the East Blue.
If you are saying One Piece isn't ever dark…you are way off base in that regard.
If you read One Piece like you do my posts then this explains a lot.
You saying it hasn't gotten darker, we can argue about.
Well we shouldn't. Because it is a retarded dead horse argument about making a false claim.
I'm a novelist
And I have a degree in creative writing myself and quite a bit more than Amazon 5 cent novel writing in my immediate relations. If you want to keep playing pointless claims to credibility we can, but it won't change anything about the discussion.
and a long time reader of novels, studied journalism to some extent, and watch various shows most of my life. But sure, think i don't understand drama or narrative.
That is exactly what I'm saying, and will continue to say so long as you claim things like that goofy scene being a tonal shift to harsh bloodshed. Being illiterate to it's obvious transitioning of Pekoms to some other location or group is one thing. But to read it and think Oda was establishing dark new standards is inexplicable.
That said, even if he survives, it's clearly meant to be a situation to SEEM like the stakes are raised because from a narrative perspective,
And what stakes are those.
Yonko are bigger foes than we have ever seen the Strawhats face before (With rare possible exceptions)
They're roughly the same as the Admirals and entire might of the Marines that we've seen already a couple times.
You want an ACTUAL example of Oda bitchslapping the audience with the danger of a level beyond the heroes? Remember the second half of Saobody? There you are.
Clearly we're having them realize they're underestimating the Yonkou, but it's not going to be anywhere near that segment (nor should it be), and it definitely obviously won't be involving random deaths that Oda just doesn't do ever.So it makes sense that a story would want to show that,
"A story" has an author. And how you still don't know the method of this author after so long is what still confuses me.
much like the second act of a theater stage play or movie.
Oda has countless times had moments like this before, of the Strawhats being out of their element. "Its a Yonkou!" is just more of you having nothing but a hindsight bias relationship with the previous parts of the series. Once upon a time the mere presence of a Shichibukai was a huge fucking deal, and for the Strawhats at the time it WAS. All things are relative.
Crocodile's first fight with Luffy is this exact sort of thing. As well as even Luffy's first fight with Smoker to an extent. Zoro's duel with Mihawk. Luffy's fight with Aokiji. The first encounter with CP9. And so on and so on and so on.
Why why why does it seem like you are so blind to the countless previous examples, why everything in recent New World arcs is like you're seeing these trends and story elements for the first time. It just doesn't make sense.Empire Strikes back comes to mind as a strong example of an entire movie that does that lol. But sure…I have no idea what I am talking about. (lol) NEXT.
Your narrative cluelessness is really highlighted here if you can't identify the middle plot defeat period that Oda already wrote and published years ago. Complete with yes, major dramatic deaths (two of them! guess who!).
There might have been a huge big deal battle, a major character's relation might have died, and the balance of the world changed, with a major villain making major gains….....but yeah Pekoms being shot in front of a baby with stubble is the plot beat that establishes harsh times and struggles for the protagonists.
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No matter how much drama Oda put into the chapter in terms of visual cues and what seemed to happen, the aftermath shows plain as day that Ceaser missed. So we have to conclude he only jolted it and it was her earlier injuries combiend with that shock that made her faint. Maybe he hit the edge of the heart and it slid, I dunno. But he did not impale it.
(Unless you want to claim he stabbed it, then pulled the shard out, and then for some reason stabbed the ground hard enough to have it stick straight up)Similar to the pirate at Sabondy that committed suicide by biting off his tongue, was declared dead by doctors, given a moment of silence, and was then fine int he background of the next chapter.
Okay, you win that one. Damn…I'm surprised I missed that. Cool, I guess. lol
On sabondy, a slave that was for all appearances completely normal standard human, had his neck collar explode, was shot, and then he was peed on by a dog and left for dead. And he was still fine.
Explosions mean nothing in OP.
WHich makes the drama around Sanji's explosive handcuffs lessened a little, but I guess we can assume they're delicate so just surviving isn't enough.
Good point, and brings up once again the Sanji situation and it's accidental lack of weight.
Bon Kurei was left up against Magellan, who had shown zero qualms about going all out and killing up until then, given a brave heroic sacrifice moment, and all the heroes cried for him and acted like he had died (aside from Luffy that swore he hadn't). Most of us knew that, of course he isn't dead, but a lot of people refused to believe it until the cover story a year later. ANd here's the thing. If Luffy had managed to save Ace, Bon Kurei just might actually have died, since that sacrifice would have meant something. But, Ace died, and it was left impotent and meaningless, so he got to live. It's how it works.
I guess thinking back, it was still questionable if he'd survived. I never truly thought he was dead though. Just didn't sound like One Piece for him to die after having survived a moment like this once before.
Similarly with Sabo. He was in a flashback, shot by the nobles, someone "witnessed" his death, and characters mourned him, and he didn't show up to meet Luffy or Ace for the next ten years. But still, the very chapter it happened, many of us said "Of course hes not dead, Oda didn't milk the drama enough for that." It wasn't until a couple chapters later that it backtracked and showed Dragon picking up someone, and even then some folks still insisted he was dead (the databook said so!) for years, even after the three sake cups were left at Ace's grave. It wasn't Dragon picking up someone a couple chapters later that clued us in, it was how Oda handles things and does his storytelling. If you thought the Dragon bit was the clue and not how Oda handled the scene, you probably read those several chapters all at once in one sitting instead of over the course of a month. Because it was weeks before that part happened.
Actually let me stop ya there. Go back and read the manga chapter where he died. There was dialogue implying that Sabo had survived, when they asked Dragon what he brought on board the ship. Hang on, I'll grab that one.
Okay so this translation is different than the one I saw but it shows the scene I meant:
http://mangafever.co/Read/One_Piece_589_7#gohere
When I originally saw this chapter back when it had just come out..I right away caught on to something- Dragon's wounds were minor at best. The amount of panic made my mind go straight to the only possible explanation- Dragon had saved Sabo. That was my prediction at the time this chapter originally came out, and it later was revealed to be true. So the thing was, the Sabo fake out death never fooled me. Though I guess its possible it fooled other people, I took it as foreshadowed from the beginning.
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@Monkey:
It's the only logical conclusion. That you maybe have read it once, and kinda quickly or something. Or when reading it you were already super familiar with the plot and stuff like that and experienced next to no "Man, that dude surely died" of the dozens and dozens of characters who would in any other series be dead as heck from nearly every single arc. Especially Skypiea as is being noted by others. You're exhibiting classic hindsight bias, where you talk about the older arcs like you are in some way unacquainted with them in the same way you are with Punk Hazard and onward. Like everything about what happened after them is obvious, but no not this time for…reasons.
I'll admit that I followed the series all the way until somewhere during the Alabasta arc, then quit for awhile. (This was mostly due to being an anime watcher of the 4 kids dub the first time around, and having only read the east blue saga in the manga version, which I did before switching to the anime) Then I sped read from Alabasta, all the way until Impel Down Arc had already gotten a few chapters under it's belt. I was up to date from then on and read the rest of Impel Down Arc as it was releasing, and have stayed up to date with the manga ever since. That much, you are right in that I sped read. It's also been a really long time since I've re-read the manga, as I did in fact do quite a number of times. My mind has also been focused on a lot of other things, as this year has been the worst year I've ever had in my entire life. (I'm not here to share details further on my personal life, but let's just say it's been extremely eventful in a bad way)
Suspension of disbelief with death not happening is a line Oda violated and crossed and pissed on long long ago countless times over and over. The idea that someone is caught up with this series without long ago themselves having made peace with this side of Oda is precisely why I'm saying you barely seem familiar with One Piece at all.
It's like someone complaining about the art style being strange and different, yet somehow being caught up with Totland. It's the comment of someone who just started.
I find it baffling that you never read through Skypiea for instance and rolled your eyes at pretty much absolutely everyone imaginable who got wiped out by Ener being alive, even though Ener and Aisa both were talking about their "voices" going silent.Touche. I'm wrong about Skypeia. My mind usually wants to forget that arc, as I'm not a fan of it.
My theory here again is you had speed reading of earlier stuff, and only on catching up are you paying closer attention.
That's a really bad point since this is One Piece and Oda's weirdness isn't a matter of math or whatever you're trying to say here. He doesn't change his bizarre standards just because he inflicted more on a character.
You can't say my point about nothing your saying mattering is fair, and then still think your point stands.
No it hasn't whatsoever.
This is one of those ultimate signs of people who sped read the earlier stuff. It's far too amnesiac for me to think anything else.
People have been claiming "new X arc signals darker One Piece" since as far back as I can remember. And it has always always been nonsense. I think the only major tonal adjustments that ever actually occurred is the Arlong Arc. Because it showed how emotionally heavy Oda COULD go, it didn't fundamentally change the series, it just showed Oda had no qualms of heavy drama. It also was the arc where Oda really tested just how connected the readers felt to his cast for the first time, and its no wonder why so many people cite it as a major moment where they became or REALIZED they were hooked.
And lest we forget that was SEVENTY volumes ago.What's tiring is people somehow still insisting that "no THIS time One Piece will become darker" and also "no THIS time Oda will break with his bizarre character death hang-ups". Even over a decade of material after they should have gotten over the latter.
Some were clear, some were not. Nothing about Monet or especially Vergo is any different from the massive backlog of seeming deaths.
Tell that to the countless fools who thought otherwise. And at least in Sabo's case that was a flashback, unlike the present timeframe, where arguing that two mooks died is in some ways even more dense than the Sabo people.
Which is how I know you sped read.
But you're being fooled right now. So rather than being some super sleuth who knew ALL those (lol if you think its only Mr. 2 and Sabo) where phony deaths, you're someone who was barely paying attention. You really have no right at all to act superior to people fooled back then.
In a long long long list of things Oda has intended to be dark that go back to the East Blue.
If you read One Piece like you do my posts then this explains a lot.
Well we shouldn't. Because it is a retarded dead horse argument about making a false claim.
And I have a degree in creative writing myself and quite a bit more than Amazon 5 cent novel writing in my immediate relations. If you want to keep playing pointless claims to credibility we can, but it won't change anything about the discussion.
That is exactly what I'm saying, and will continue to say so long as you claim things like that goofy scene being a tonal shift to harsh bloodshed. Being illiterate to it's obvious transitioning of Pekoms to some other location or group is one thing. But to read it and think Oda was establishing dark new standards is inexplicable.
And what stakes are those.
They're roughly the same as the Admirals and entire might of the Marines that we've seen already a couple times.
You want an ACTUAL example of Oda bitchslapping the audience with the danger of a level beyond the heroes? Remember the second half of Saobody? There you are.
Clearly we're having them realize they're underestimating the Yonkou, but it's not going to be anywhere near that segment (nor should it be), and it definitely obviously won't be involving random deaths that Oda just doesn't do ever."A story" has an author. And how you still don't know the method of this author after so long is what still confuses me.
Oda has countless times had moments like this before, of the Strawhats being out of their element. "Its a Yonkou!" is just more of you having nothing but a hindsight bias relationship with the previous parts of the series. Once upon a time the mere presence of a Shichibukai was a huge fucking deal, and for the Strawhats at the time it WAS. All things are relative.
Crocodile's first fight with Luffy is this exact sort of thing. As well as even Luffy's first fight with Smoker to an extent. Zoro's duel with Mihawk. Luffy's fight with Aokiji. The first encounter with CP9. And so on and so on and so on.
Why why why does it seem like you are so blind to the countless previous examples, why everything in recent New World arcs is like you're seeing these trends and story elements for the first time. It just doesn't make sense.Your narrative cluelessness is really highlighted here if you can't identify the middle plot defeat period that Oda already wrote and published years ago. Complete with yes, major dramatic deaths (two of them! guess who!).
There might have been a huge big deal battle, a major character's relation might have died, and the balance of the world changed, with a major villain making major gains….....but yeah Pekoms being shot in front of a baby with stubble is the plot beat that establishes harsh times and struggles for the protagonists.
I don't want to respond to this with every detail, but I'll instead saya reply as an overall response..I'm going to be mature about this. I could keep arguing on minor details you've said that I still disagree with, but there really is no point since your overall argument is true.
After thinking and pondering on your post, I've lost this argument and you are right. The stakes were raised many times in the past, and I hadn't thought about that fact during this argument. You win. lol
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I'll admit that I followed the series all the way until somewhere during the Alabasta arc, then quit for awhile. (This was mostly due to being an anime watcher of the 4 kids dub the first time around, and having only read the east blue saga in the manga version, which I did before switching to the anime) Then I sped read from Alabasta, all the way until Impel Down Arc had already gotten a few chapters under it's belt.
Touche. I'm wrong about Skypeia. My mind usually wants to forget that arc, as I'm not a fan of it.
It's awesome, so look forward to it when you do a nice re-read some day.
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Actually let me stop ya there. Go back and read the manga chapter where he died. There was dialogue implying that Sabo had survived, when they asked Dragon what he brought on board the ship. Hang on, I'll grab that one.
Okay so this translation is different than the one I saw but it shows the scene I meant:
That's the chapter after he died. Not the same one. There was absolutely a gap there where there was no such hint, and we were supposed to think he was dead for a while.
Most of us here knew better, but it WASN'T because of Dragon picking him up. I could have sworn it was longer gap than just the one week, (maybe there was a skip week in there) but there was definitely heavy discussion on it at the time and a time where we had to defend him being not dead based purely on Oda's habits and nothing else.
And again, even after the Dragon hint, a lot of people still argued and believed he was dead for a long time afterwards, especially due to the databook lying.
Touche. I'm wrong about Skypeia. My mind usually wants to forget that arc, as I'm not a fan of it.
Skypeia is great, one of Oda's best arcs. A lot of people have problems with it because Oda goes to it immediately after opening the world up with Luffy's bounty reveal, Blackbeard, and the other warlords and starts to truly show the scale of things for the first time, and people are really eager to get back to the "plot" after that. It feels really unconnected to the main story (lots of people call it canon filler) and at the time, it's THE longest arc in the series, a full 1/3 of it and longer than all of East Blue, or all the Crocodile islands, so it FEELS reeeeally long, and then it has a long flashback right at the climax when people just want it to be done.
(And for anime watchers its even worse, as that's when it switches from 2 chapters per episode to 1.5 chapters per episode, and thus it feels even longer…. which isn't as bad as the 1 chapter per episode they reach later on...)
So it's absolutely understandable why you might dislike it, a lot of people do for those reasons. I did my first time through, and I was there when it actually took 2 years to get through! I even (foolishly) skimmed through the "pointless" flashback the first time. Its a long arc and it feels like it that first time, given where and when it takes place.
But now that the series has progressed, its place in the plot made more clear, its overall length just a tiny portion of the whole, there have been longer arcs, and you know to expect the AWESOME flashback at the end of and what the whole conflict is about... it's actually really really good, one of Oda's strongest stories overall.
Similarly, Davy Back fight is pure fun, but its placement also bothers people because it seems fluffy and pointless and holding up the "lets get back to the story" feel, but... its short and its solid and fun and a good quick break after the long arc and before the next long arc.
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Consider this a reply to both Monkey King and Robby-
I've re-read all of the arcs many times…except Skypeia and Fishman Island.
I guess someday I should re-read those two...but it'll be a hard pill to swallow, especially Fishman Island Arc.
That said, thank you both for this discussion. I found it enjoyable overall. (In spite some rudeness from Monkey King at first)
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I've re-read all of the arcs many times…except Skypeia and Fishman Island.
As someone who hated Skypiea on the first read and now has it as one of his favorite arcs, all I can say is stop skipping it.
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@.access:
As someone who hated Skypiea on the first read and now has it as one of his favorite arcs, all I can say is stop skipping it.
Ditto. Although, I feel like I'm the only one who liked the FI arc.
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@The:
Defeating her in what sense? There's no way Luffy is defeating Big Mom this arc in the sense he defeated Croc/Lucci etc. He's still nowhere strong enough yet. Big Mom/Yonkous are strong enough to fodderize characters like Jimbei and Flamingo. These 4 require a world changing war to take down with similar military power to the Marines. Luffy right now poses 0 threat to Big Mom. And this whole arc so far has made that clear. This is why it is obvious that the Big Mom arc was placed in between the Kaido arc. Because right now Luffy isn't a match against Kaido and facing against big mom here will teach him that. So that when he does face Kaido he will be better prepared against a Yonkou.
For reference, to defeat Kaido it will probably look something like this:
Luffy and Strawhats + Minks + Samurais + Marco(with some WB pirates maybe) + Kidd + Apoo + Hawkins(maybe) + Drake + some random characters vs Kaido and the beast pirates
And even then it's going to be a borderline miracle if they can take down Kaido.
Luffy is getting pretty darn close to yonkou strength. No where near the other three but creeping up on Big Mama level as far as 1 on 1 battle is all I'm saying. He's yonkou commander tier now so it's not long off and he's on the same island as her as we speak.
The face of a Straw Hat.