You may want a Zoan, but every evidence we have supports Paramecia.
Geez, we only had a short scene of Kinemon's powers, so except that it shouldn't be a Logia, we can't say much at this point. Let us just decide that he could be either Paramecia OR Mythical Zoan.
(Also the idea of the "Making clothes appear"-DF sounds kinda dumb to me…)
Geez, we only had a short scene of Kinemon's powers, so except that it shouldn't be a Logia, we can't say much at this point. Let us just decide that he could be either Paramecia OR Mythical Zoan.
(Also the idea of the "Making clothes appear"-DF sounds kinda dumb to me…)
And how do you like the idea of "Washing People"-DF, "Turning your limbs into wheels"-DF or "Producing soap"-DF? Not every DF is super useful. Like I said already supernatural powers are linked with Paramecia, while Zoan is mainly about_transforming_. And Mythical Zoans are rare, so it's very unlikely to see a 3rd such DF.
And how do you like the idea of "Washing People"-DF, "Turning your limbs into wheels"-DF or "Producing soap"-DF? Not every DF is super useful. Like I said already supernatural powers are linked with Paramecia, while Zoan is mainly about_transforming_. And Mythical Zoans are rare, so it's very unlikely to see a 3rd such DF.
Yeah, but these DFs weren't used by important characters and could at least fight with their fruits…
And just because there already were 2 (!!) Mythical Zoans there can't be another? Yeah, right, they were just introduced, because a phoenix looked cool in the war...
I mean, you can have your opinion, but don't act like you have to be absolutely 100% right...
Yeah, but these DFs weren't used by important characters and could at least fight with their fruits…
And just because there already were 2 (!!) Mythical Zoans there can't be another? Yeah, right, they were just introduced, because a phoenix looked cool in the war...
I mean, you can have your opinion, but don't act like you have to be absolutely 100% right...
They are still useless. Take Blamenco's fruit for example, he could not even fight with it. And a disguise DF could be pretty useful. And I was not saying that there cannot be another Mythical Zoan, but atleast not so soon, perhaps deeper in the New World there could be another. There is only one Ancient Zoan for example. And Paramecia offer the widest variety of possible fruits.
And like someone already said, a fox is not a mythical creature.
And IF Kinemon ever transforms I will admit that I was wrong. But now I am right.
Well, we'll see. There's still something coming about his powers or else we would've already got a name.
Anyways, why not discuss things that actually were in the chapter? :ninja:
Well, we'll see. There's still something coming about his powers or else we would've already got a name.
Anyways, why not discussing about things that actually were in the chapter? :ninja:
We don't have a name for the DFs of Jozu, Sengoku, many people from the war, the Supernovas, etc. This doesn't mean they are all Mythical Zoans.
Because we are hardcore like that. :ninja:
We don't have a name for the DFs of Jozu, Sengoku, many people from the war, the Supernovas, etc. This doesn't mean they are all Mythical Zoans.
We actually got a name for Sengoku's fruit via SBS: "Hito Hito No Mi, Modell: Daibutsu". Also I think it was stated that Oda didn't name many DFs in the war except Whitebeard, because he didn't want to overfill the arc. Important fruits will probably get names later anyways, just like with Law.
And I don't think any unexplained fruit is Mythical Zoan…it's just that Kinemon's powers thus far resemble the ones of raccoons and foxes (both no mythical creatures itself) in japanese folklores afaik + his epithet.^^
We actually got a name for Sengoku's fruit via SBS: "Hito Hito No Mi, Modell: Daibutsu". Also I think it was stated that Oda didn't name many DFs in the war except Whitebeard, because he didn't want to overfill the arc. Important fruits will probably get names later, just like with Law.
And I don't think any unexplained fruit is Mythical Zoan…it's just that Kinemon's powers thus far resemble the ones of raccoons and foxes in japanese folklores afaik + his epithet.
I don't know why I mentioned Sengoku. :ninja:
But still raccoons and foxes are not mythical creatures.
@ Sagippio: Yeah i know that his fruit would not be a Kitsune but rather a mythical version of it and Kyuubi would be the best example. Yeah, i know it could be a Paramecia (disguise DF would be ok with me), it is just that the condition for the disguise or illusion if you want is to place something on your head, the same applies to the powers of the Kitsune (Kyuubi if you want) and Tanuki, so knowing Oda that is not a coincidence. Besides, until now we saw no Paramecia having a condition like that (kind of reminded me of Darker Than Black).
@Strelok: A Golden Daibutsu exists in our world, thus it is not something mythical (well, this one is in China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Temple_Buddha). Only the powers associated with this (mostly in fiction) are mythical.
Golden Daibutsu exists, but not a person who is able to transform into it. So it's mythical.
I found a better panel showing Marco transforming:
http://i3.mangareader.net/one-piece/554/one-piece-682361.jpgHere you can clearly see he is like a Logia.
You may want a Zoan, but every evidence we have supports Paramecia.
Following this logic, every Zoan so far has been mythical since in reality we also do not have people who can turn into animals, that was not very smart here. Concerning Marco, i´ll ignore the question whether Marco is intangible in his phoenix form or not (cause it is something not answerable with the panels we got) but concerning him using the DF powers, in the panels i gave you, you can clearly see that he has blue flames surrounding his human (normal) form, thus he does not need to transform in order use the phoenix´s powers.
In japanese folclore they are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune
You are so close minded I can't tell if you are trolling or just daft. holy hell.
And Dragons are also not mythological, right?
!
In the history there has never been a giant golden person, so Sengoku's fruit is Mythological. This doesn't apply for animals like foxes.
Are you mad because you lost the Bonney argument in the other topic? :ninja:
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
In japanese folclore they are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitsune
You are so close minded I can't tell if you are trolling or just daft. holy hell.
Did you read what you posted? Kitsune is a japanese word for fox, they are believed to have superpowers similar to black cats in the Western world. But they are still not mythological creatures.
First off, i never lost any Bonney argument at all, the reasonable people just said that we have to wait and even if i had lost that argument, i am not that petty to bring that here but seeing that you make it personal now must mean that your arguments run out. While the Dragon is a mythical creature, the Daibutsu is modeled after Buddha, an existing person.
First off, i never lost any Bonney argument at all, the reasonable people just said that we have to wait and even if i had lost that argument, i am not that petty to bring that here but seeing that you make it personal now must mean that your arguments run out. While the Dragon is a mythical creature, the Daibutsu is modeled after Buddha, an existing person.
Yes, but the existing person Buddha wasn't 200 meters tall and he wasn't golden.
What makes you think it can't be Inu Inu no mi: model kyuubi no kitsune. for instance.
That's as mythical as Daibutsu.
I'm really not going to go in circles arguing w/ a wall like everyone else is here.
for the record, a tanuki isn't a raccoon.
No, foxes are actual creatues and the Daibutsu is just a statue.
Mythical Zoans need to transform to use their powers.
Like I said, until he transforms I am right.
Yes, but the existing person Buddha wasn't 200 meters tall and he wasn't golden.
Are you joking? The statue is modeled after and represents Buddha, the size of it does not matter, it is not something mythical since it exists in our world. The Kyuubi is also modeled after Kitsunes, that would make it mythical, too.
Btw, i clearly gave you evidence (by reference to Marco) in the manga that you do not need to transform if you want to use the powers of the fruit but if you start ignoring posts now because it does not fit with your opinion or even disprove your view then the discussion is pretty much over.
Are you joking? The statue is modeled after and represents Buddha, the size of it does not matter, it is not something mythical since it exists in our world. The Kyuubi is also modeled after Kitsunes, that would make it mythical, too.
The statue is not a creature. It's modeled after Buddha but it's mythical. The same way the mythical creature unicorn is based after the real world creature horse for example.
Btw, i clearly gave you evidence (by reference to Marco) in the manga that you do not need to transform if you want to use the powers of the fruit but if you start ignoring posts now because it does not fit with your opinion or even disprove your view then the discussion is pretty much over.
You didn't do that. He said he didn't transform which is clearly wrong. The blue flames are part of his transformation.
Hey guys look it's a bronze statue of Napoleon, he must be a mythical creature!! Right, guys?? guys? eh? … O_o;;
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Hey guys look, Mr. 3 has wax on his arm, wax is part of his transformation, he is transforming, he must be a Zoan!!!
Right guys? guys? omae? O_O;;
Hey guys look it's a bronze statue of Napoleon, he must be a mythical creature!! Right, guys?? guys? eh? … O_o;;
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Hey guys look, Mr. 3 has wax on his arm, wax is part of his transformation, he is transforming, he must be a Zoan!!!
Right guys? guys? omae? O_O;;
Learn to read.
Napoleon and Buddha aren't mythical, but the giant (200 meter tall) golden Statue based on Buddha is.
And Mr. 3 has covered his hand in wax, which is different from what Marco did here:
http://i3.mangareader.net/one-piece/554/one-piece-682361.jpg
He talks better than me:ninja:
I can't see mangareader links (or anyone else in the US for that matter) but as you can see in this top panel, marco can indeed use the flame while in human form as it was posted before, but you just flat out ignored.
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17710/one-piece_ch569_by_franky-house/7
I can't see mangareader links (or anyone else in the US for that matter) but as you can see in this top panel, marco can indeed use the flame while in human for as it was posted before, but you just flat out ignored.
http://www.batoto.net/read/_/17710/one-piece_ch569_by_franky-house/7
That is part of his transformation.
This is the page:
http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/106/57-554.0/compressed/t02_03.jpg
He is like Logia.
That just proves he can use the power in human form, his face doesn't have to be in bird form, the mythical powers of the fruit and the transforming into an animal part of the fruit don't have to occur at the same time.
That is part of his transformation.
This is the page:
http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/106/57-554.0/compressed/t02_03.jpgHe is like Logia.
Even if that were true (like i said, i am gonna ignore whether he is intangible or not), in the panel i gave you above in my post (here again http://www.mangareader.net/103-48478-14/one-piece/chapter-578.html) you can clearly see that his hand does not transform but he still produces the blue flames which should not be possible following your logic.
Even if that were true (like i said, i am gonna ignore whether he is intangible or not), in the panel i gave you above in my post (here again http://www.mangareader.net/103-48478-14/one-piece/chapter-578.html) you can clearly see that his hand does not transform but he still produces the blue flames which should not be possible following your logic.
This is part of his transformation.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
That just proves he can use the power in human form, his face doesn't have to be in bird form, the mythical powers of the fruit and the transforming into an animal part of the fruit don't have to occur at the same time.
No, he has to partially transform to use the healing flame.
His hand is still in his normal form and did not turn into flames (assumed he is intangible in the phoenix form) but he produces flames in that panel, how is that his transformation?
Look, his logia like regeneration and his ability to transform into a bird are two independent events.
It's basic logic dude, stop being so damned obstinate.
His hand is still in his normal form and did not turn into flames (assumed he is intangible in the phoenix form) but he produces flames in that panel, how is that his transformation?
It's the beginning of his transformation. He doesn't transform in a milisecond. In this panel I think he tries to scare the Marines, by reminding them of his regeneration ability. A wing wouldn't be so scary.
Look, his logia like regeneration and his ability to transform into a bird are two independent events.
It's basic logic dude, stop being so damned obstinate.
In the panels he takes damage, he has healing flames around him.
And why did you two change the topic about Kinemon's fruit?
Edit: Sengoku became his Zoan form to use his shockwaves.
For all we know Sengoko can indeed use shockwaves while in full human form, they just could simly get stronger while in his Daibutsu form.
Remember: Absence of evidence isn't evidence of Absence.
Do yourself a favor and read this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Absence_of_evidence
It might help you out in your debating skills.
What does trying to scare have anything to do with his abilities (besides, the one who stands before him is Akainu, trying to scare would be dumb). You say that he intangible (ok for now although it is not necessarily true) but he does not have the same ability as a Logia, namely he can not produce his element, he only consists of it. In the panel i gave you Marco has his human arm surrounded by blue flames, meaning he is using the fruit´s ability without transforming. IN that scene, there is nothing to interpret, it is as simple as that.
For all we know Sengoko can indeed use shockwaves while in full human form, they just could simly get stronger while in his Daibutsu form.
Remember: Absence of evidence isn't evidence of Absence.
Do yourself a favor and read this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Absence_of_evidence
It might help you out in your debating skills.
The healing is a quality of phoenix, not of a human who can transform into a phoenix. If what you said is true, this means that Sengoku and Marco have the equivalent of 2 fruit at the same time.
What you said might apply very good in real life, but this is shounen manga, where story-telling rules matter. I could say for example that Franky has a DF after the time skip, but we know he doesn't because if he did he would use it. Of course not using it is no evidence that he doesn't have one, but in a manga like One Piece it's pretty certain that he doesn't have one if he doesn't use it.
And btw you insulted me in your first post in this discussion, so you should also review your debating abilities.
No Urouge chapter review yet :(
Well, you are indeed close minded. And just because it was my first post, it doesn't mean I didn't read your previous posts. The original argument you were having is if Kinemon has a paramecia or zoan ability.
People argue it can be either, show supporting facts but you stay firm as a wall that you have to be 100% correct in your assertion and it indeed has to be a paramecia, despite there being evidence for both possibilities.
Then you go and say lines such as "well until he is shown transforming, I am correct".
No, you aren't. As I said, absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.
I'm not saying you are incorrect either, I can't. There is the possibility of both events. Either he is Zoan or Paramecia. Both are a likely outcome.
I would ask you to read about Schoindinger's cat thought experiment which delves in the possibility of more than one outcome (in layman's terms). However, if you can't understand basic logic, I feel it would be lost on you.
Haha, reading about Schroedinger´s cat just improve the interaction in a manga forum is a bit extreme^^
Well, you are indeed close minded. And just because it was my first post, it doesn't mean I didn't read your previous posts. The original argument you were having is if Kinemon has a paramecia or zoan ability.
People argue it can be either, show supporting facts but you stay firm as a wall that you have to be 100% correct in your assertion and it indeed has to be a paramecia, despite there being evidence for both possibilities.
Then you go and say lines such as "well until he is shown transforming, I am correct".
No, you aren't. As I said, absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.
I'm not saying you are incorrect either, I can't. There is the possibility of both events. Either he is Zoan or Paramecia. Both are a likely outcome.
I would ask you to read about Schoindinger's cat thought experiment which delves in the possibility of more than one outcome (in layman's terms). However, if you can't understand basic logic, I feel it would be lost on you.
I think you try to sound too smart. I am well aware of the Schrödinger's cat, but this isn't really evident. But the only "argument" people have is that it would be cool( they don't actually say it, they hide behind smart-sounding words), and that the powers are linked with foxes(which aren't mythical creatures). On the other hand we have the fact that he has a superpower (linked with Paramecia) and he didn't transform. Pekoms appeared in like 10 panels and transformed, Drake too. The Boa sisters also transformed shortly after their appearance.
So, instead of trying to act clever, discuss the actual topic.
Edit: You misspelled Schrödinger, professor.
I think you try to sound too smart. I am well aware of the Schrödinger's cat, but this isn't really evident. But the only "argument" people have is that it would be cool( they don't actually say it, they hide behind smart-sounding words), and that the powers are linked with foxes(which aren't mythical creatures). On the other hand we have the fact that he has a superpower (linked with Paramecia) and he didn't transform. Pekoms appeared in like 10 panels and transformed, Drake too. The Boa sisters also transformed shortly after their appearance.
So, instead of trying to act clever, discuss the actual topic.
Edit: You misspelled Schrödinger, professor.
The thing is, my friend, that you ignore the arguments and facts we give you and still insist that you are 100% right. You ignore the fact that i pretty much proved that you do not need to transform in order to use the power given by a mythical zoan (or it was like thatonly in Marco´s case ), you ignore that the way Kinemon "produced" those clothes is taken from Japanese Mythology and you ignore the fact that no Paramecia we have seen so far (were quite a few actually) had any kind of conditions to use their powers but Kinemon does. This is pretty much the definition of close-minded and is, quite frankly, no basis for a fruitful discussion.
The thing is, my friend, that you ignore the arguments and facts we give you and still insist that you are 100% right. You ignore the fact that i pretty much proved that you do not need to transform in order to use the power given by a mythical zoan (or it was like thatonly in Marco´s case ), you ignore that the way Kinemon "produced" those clothes is taken from Japanese Mythology and you ignore the fact that no Paramecia we have seen so far (were quite a few actually) had any kind of conditions to use their powers but Kinemon does. This is pretty much the definition of close-minded and is, quite frankly, no basis for a fruitful discussion.
Marco's flames are part of his transformation. Sengoku didn't use his shockwaves in his human form. Kinemon's condition was to put leaves on their heads, but they put stones and the magic still worked. I think his condition is what he links with the myths he has heard. Like Robin doesn't have to cross her hands, but she still does it. So, any other arguments, instead of insulting me again?
But the only "argument" people have is that it would be cool( they don't actually say it, they hide behind smart-sounding words), and that the powers are linked with foxes(which aren't mythical creatures).
As a matter of fact I am no big fan of Mythical Zoans. Sengokus DF for example was probably one of the dumbest powers in the manga.
I personally thought that Sengoku's DF was an interesting use of the hito hito no mi.
I never insulted you, i already disproved that the flames are a product of his DF and he still uses his flames in his human form, we never saw Sengoku fight in his human form, why would Kinemon choose to place somethign on his head without a reason whatsoever? Wanna try again?
How many punches can Vergo take? It annoys me how quickly he recovers from them and treat them like they're nothing
He simply forgets that he took them in the first place.
I never insulted you, i already disproved that the flames are a product of his DF and he still uses his flames in his human form, we never saw Sengoku fight in his human form, why would Kinemon choose to place somethign on his head without a reason whatsoever? Wanna try again?
You called me close-minded, which is an insult. You didn't disprove anything, actually. The blue flames are part of his transformation ability, like I already said. The healing is a quality the phoenix has, not the person who can turn into a phoenix. We never saw Sengoku fight without his Buddha form, I think this is because he would be pretty similar to Garp - a physical fighter, because he cannot use his shock waves without transforming. If he could use them in his human form, Oda would probably show it. Why would Robin cross her arms before she spawns limbs? Like I said, he is from a Japanese country, and he thinks he needs to use leaves. Actually his magic worked with stones, so this is no argument.
I like how you accuse me of ignoring your "arguments", but you do the same.
The blue flames are an ability of the phoenix that engulfs its body with blue flames that have the ability to regenerate injuries. Following your logic, Marco would have to transform himself (at least partly) into a bird, meaning wings or bird feet (i do not know the english name for it) but Marco is still in his human form when the blue flames engulf his limbs - > he can use it without transforming. There is not even room to discuss this, it is like you interpret something to your own convenience. Just read the whole discussion between us, i never ignored any of your arguments. It is just that you repeat the same thing which i already disproved and frankly, i do not like to repeat myself. Robin´s stance is a fighting stance, just like Luffy does not need to take the stance when he uses G2 (pre-TS) but he does it anyway but using an ability you do not know about and adding a condition yourself (from Kinemon´s point of view) is something totally different, unlogical and random. Besides, it is also important that Oda used exactly this as a condition and as we know, most of the things Oda does are not random.
The argument for Kinemon having a Mythical Zoan is stupid.
Boa Hancock has the ability to petrify foes, just like a Basilisk. Does this mean she has a Mythical Basilisk Zoan? Or maybe a Mythical Medusa Zoan?
Nope. That's just her power. Petrifying people. The ability itself is commonly associated with both legendary creatures I mentioned above, but that doesn't mean Hancock has to become one of those creatures so she can have access to the ability to petrify others.
Same with Kinemon. His ability is nothing but a nod that reinforces his title of "Foxfire".
People who think we won't see anymore Mythical Zoans before the series concludes are cwazy.
Why would Robin cross her arms before she spawns limbs?
She doesn't always, kinda nullifying this section. As a child, she pointed to the location of where the arms would sprout, and sometimes she doesnt move her arms at all. I imagine she often does it for concentration, as she feels the strain of each arm she sprouts
i like how this is a major arc battle that is between two characters who aren't strawhats
Holy shit..!!
I take a break after reading 681 and come back this past week to find 3 incredible chapters..
So much revealed and still, so many (new) questions..
-Doflamingo's crew looks terrifying, and that whole scene with him giving her orders while she's trying to kill him was just evil.
-Knowing the crew and the G-5 already have their hands full with Caesar, Vergo and Monet and now Baby-5 and Buffalo are on their way..
-Kinemon and Brook teaming the dragon while Zoro chills out and watches.
-Sanji admitting he would have lost to Vergo.
-Monet…she's jus too mysterious.
-Hat-less Law..I laughed..
-Vergo calling Doflamingo "Doffy", they must be pretty close.
-Smmmookerr being awesome.
-Caesar being a terrible actor, and his awesome hair in the flash back
-Luffy and Momonosuke.
Also, while going through an old color walk I came across this.
!
The argument for Kinemon having a Mythical Zoan is stupid.
Boa Hancock has the ability to petrify foes, just like a Basilisk. Does this mean she has a Mythical Basilisk Zoan? Or maybe a Mythical Medusa Zoan?
Nope. That's just her power. Petrifying people. The ability itself is commonly associated with both legendary creatures I mentioned above, but that doesn't mean Hancock has to become one of those creatures so she can have access to the ability to petrify others.
Same with Kinemon. His ability is nothing but a nod that reinforces his title of "Foxfire".
You are right that it could be the same case as with Hancock, namely giving Kinemon the powers of the Tanuki/Kitsune without him having a Mythical Zoan and thus him having turn into one but nothing is definite and i really would like people to not treat it as such, for example cutting off people easily because it does not agree with their opinion is just dumb because we have no evidence for now.
I want to believe too big guy3ds code friend:0404-6254-1866
