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^And that's really the main problem, the tone of a cutesy adventurous ten-year-old doesn't match the tone of the grim violence, not just in the ant arc, but the whole series.

Dude what are u talking about? Just because the protagonist is a curious naive little boy doesn't mean that this is a light hearted story. Actually one of the major themes of this story is about Gon going on adventures in this world and learning how much of a dark and evil place it is and seeing his reaction to it. Like how when Gon was angry at Nobunaga because he cried when Uvo died but didn't shara that sympathy with anyone else he killed.

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@The:

Reporting in.

I'm not going to go too far into this discussion, it being a year since my last appempt at reading this series, but…
If there is one thing I took away from reading HxH, it was that the world seriously lacked empathy. Its especially clear after reading Shingeki no Kyojin, where every death is an AAAAAaargh nooooooo shit this is horrrible!!! moment- in comparison, HxH deaths were barely reacted to.

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Oh, and

No.

That would make Gantz a Realistic Epic.

Yes that is one of the things that make HxH better. The realism and believability of its brutality. Thats what a lot of ppl like most about it.

Sander

@RobbyBevard:

http://i.imgur.com/quoRXwz.gif

Quick,someone make the Togashi version!

Aohige_AP

Yes that is one of the things that make HxH better. The realism and believability of its brutality. Thats what a lot of ppl like most about it.

You utterly failed to grasp Daz's point.

Robby

Hunter is a fine seinin series.

But it reeeeally shouldn't be in a shonen book at this point.

(It's release schedule being only part of it.)

Nobodyman

Dude what are u talking about? Just because the protagonist is a curious naive little boy doesn't mean that this is a light hearted story. Actually one of the major themes of this story is about Gon going on adventures in this world and learning how much of a dark and evil place it is and seeing his reaction to it. Like how when Gon was angry at Nobunaga because he cried when Uvo died but didn't shara that sympathy with anyone else he killed.

That's the thing though, is that the terrible things he sees doesn't really bother him that much. Aside from that moment you mentioned where he gets angry at Nobunaga from a moral standpoint, not much seems to get to him. Like, I can't believe Gon had no reaction to Hisoka carrying that one guy's head in the Hunter exam.

Gliblord

I wouldn't say Gon is all that innocent or naive, he did live amongst nature tooth and nail after all

Aohige_AP

@RobbyBevard:

Hunter is a fine seinin series.

But it reeeeally shouldn't be in a shonen book at this point.

(It's release schedule being only part of it.)

I kinda feel it's more of a "shouldn't be in one of the major three shounen mag" issue.
Outside of the big guns, there are shounen mags that can get away with more… simply due to the fact they're such a small fry.

One could argue that Jump used to get away with a lot more, and while this is certainly true, most so-called "mature theme" were handled in a more... campy fashion, such as Hokuto no Ken. Hunter x Hunter's disturbing aspect is really not in the depiction of the incidents itself, but in the very disturbing and traumatizing presentation of the themes.

Wagomu

@RobbyBevard:

Hunter is a fine seinin series.

But it reeeeally shouldn't be in a shonen book at this point.

(It's release schedule being only part of it.)

Yeah, I'm actually surprised HxH hasn't joined whichever Jump Jojo is in at this point. Greater time between releases plus laxer censorship. It would be cool if HxH started a second series in that specific Jump.

tupadre97

@RobbyBevard:

Hunter is a fine seinin series.

But it reeeeally shouldn't be in a shonen book at this point.

(It's release schedule being only part of it.)

If series like attack on titan are considered shonen I dont see why hxh cant be shonen as well.

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That's the thing though, is that the terrible things he sees doesn't really bother him that much. Aside from that moment you mentioned where he gets angry at Nobunaga from a moral standpoint, not much seems to get to him. Like, I can't believe Gon had no reaction to Hisoka carrying that one guy's head in the Hunter exam.

He was also mad at what happened to Kaito.@Aohige_AP:

You utterly failed to grasp Daz's point.

And that was?

Nobodyman

@Gliblord:

I wouldn't say Gon is all that innocent or naive, he did live amongst nature tooth and nail after all

I have trouble getting a reading on Gon as a character.

I actually think it'd be pretty cool if, in keeping with Togashi's subversive nature, he took the classic kid Goku trope and put him through the hell of the dark evil nature of the world, stripping him of his naive innocence. But Gon is still essentially the same character he was when the series started.

And again, we get times where he seems empathetic to the lives of innocent people, but then doesn't bat an eye when people are viciously murdered in front of him.

One could argue that Jump used to get away with a lot more, and while this is certainly true, most so-called "mature theme" were handled in a more… campy fashion, such as Hokuto no Ken. Hunter x Hunter's disturbing aspect is really not in the depiction of the incidents itself, but in the very disturbing and traumatizing presentation of the themes.

Exactly this. Honestly, I have no problem with gore and violence by itself, but it's all about context. The violence in a Tarantino film is different from the violence in a war drama.

tupadre97

I kinda feel it's more of a "shouldn't be in one of the major three shounen mag" issue.
Outside of the big guns, there are shounen mags that can get away with more… simply due to the fact they're such a small fry.

One could argue that Jump used to get away with a lot more, and while this is certainly true, most so-called "mature theme" were handled in a more... campy fashion, such as Hokuto no Ken. Hunter x Hunter's disturbing aspect is really not in the depiction of the incidents itself, but in the very disturbing and traumatizing presentation of the themes.

That is true but its supposed to be disturbing. If it wasn't it wouldn't make anysense and readers would lose their sense of realism with the story that its supposed to maintain.@Nobodyman:

I have trouble getting a reading on Gon as a character.

I actually think it'd be pretty cool if, in keeping with Togashi's subversive nature, he took the classic kid Goku trope and put him through the hell of the dark evil nature of the world, stripping him of his naive innocence. But Gon is still essentially the same character he was when the series started.

And again, we get times where he seems empathetic to the lives of innocent people, but then doesn't bat an eye when people are viciously murdered in front of him.

Exactly this. Honestly, I have no problem with gore and violence by itself, but it's all about context. The violence in a Tarantino film is different from the violence in a war drama.

Actually I think he does care about ppl getting killed depending on the context. If its done indiscriminately he doesn't like it but if its for a specific reason or has justification (like how the players in GI all risk their lives to play, or how Gon killed Pitou or said he would kill Komugi).

Gliblord

I have trouble getting a reading on Gon as a character.

I actually think it'd be pretty cool if, in keeping with Togashi's subversive nature, he took the classic kid Goku trope and put him through the hell of the dark evil nature of the world, stripping him of his naive innocence. But Gon is still essentially the same character he was when the series started.

And again, we get times where he seems empathetic to the lives of innocent people, but then doesn't bat an eye when people are viciously murdered in front of him.

Exactly this. Honestly, I have no problem with gore and violence by itself, but it's all about context. The violence in a Tarantino film is different from the violence in a war drama.

My reading of Gon would be that he's that trope of the INNOCENT and PURE child who was raised amongst the kind and gentle woodland creatures, flipped so that while he retains the earnestness and determination of such a character, he's also VERY desensitized to things like gore and murder and even sex, all things which would be extremely common in the untamed wilds. That being said, he's obviously still human and capable of empathy when things are boiled down to a more childish and innocent level (hence the anger at Nobunaga for his seeming hypocrisy). Although, Gon is my least favorite of the main 4 because he doesn't have much that distinguishes him from the other more colorful cast members

Silverblade

First Togashi Day and now Hunter x Hunter is not a children comic book? I think at this point I enjoy Hunter x Hunter more when it is on hiatus.

Although jokes aside, I don't really see a problem with the cruelty of Hunter x Hunter world. It's actually something I'm willing to give Togashi credit for. On one hand he has built this advanced, civilized society where adventurers and explorers are this vaguely defined elite of the world in every sphere. There is a clear hierarchical vertical ladder accessible to everyone to climb. Some sort of harmless sterile enviroment to achieve a dream. But on the other hand, once the reader gets to see the inner working of this sytem and the world, the sterility crumbles away, showing all the danger, filth and blood underneath. I think that this contrast is intentional and Togashi made good use of it.

Gon's lack of empathy to things unrelated directly to him is part of this as well. Togashi intended the character to be like this. Mr.Toto has written a thesis on this topic at some point, so search this thread and give it a read. Gon is certainly more than just a conventional main character. Not that his behaviour isn't disturbing. But it's more of a larger problem Hunter x Hunter has than a flaw on its own. That is, Hunter x Hunter narrative is much more focused on it well crafted story and intrigue making full use of its elaborate battle system. And due to that the emotional aspect remains just an additional layer to the literary body rather than then being at the main core of the story.

Aohige_AP

That is true but its supposed to be disturbing. If it wasn't it wouldn't make anysense and readers would lose their sense of realism with the story that its supposed to maintain.

Whether or not the said theme were intentional or not is not up for debate. Of course it is.
Not the point.

tupadre97

Whether or not the said theme were intentional or not is not up for debate. Of course it is.
Not the point.

Dude wth are u talking about?

Aohige_AP

headdesk
Between this thread and the other, you are obviously having trouble with comprehension.

The topic is not what, why, how, when, or where. The topic in question is appropriateness.

dan2026

Hunter x Hunter isn't getting away with as much these days.

The Ant arc kept getting censored after all.

Nobodyman

@dan2026:

Hunter x Hunter isn't getting away with as much these days.

You ain't kidding. It's not even getting away with being printed in the magazine.

The Ant arc kept getting censored after all.

That must be it. I guess now they're censoring the entire comic.

Aohige_AP

And I have a gut feeling, founded on pretty much nothing but speculation, that if he actually kept drawing and generating some bling for WSJ, he would have continued to get away with it.

Silverblade

That must be it. I guess now they're censoring the entire comic.

Think that beneath Kubo's spilled ink one can actually find whole chapters of Hunter x Hunter?

Gliblord

Togashi IS Kubo and has been playing us all for fools this entire time

tupadre97

headdesk
Between this thread and the other, you are obviously having trouble with comprehension.

The topic is not what, why, how, when, or where. The topic in question is appropriateness.

And whats so inappropriate about the gore in HxH? If Togashi wants to portray his story realistically and brutally well then thats his business. Its not really anything to be mad about its just how he portrays his story, deal with it.

Gliblord

And whats so inappropriate about the gore in HxH? If Togashi wants to portray his story realistically and brutally well then thats his business. Its not really anything to be mad about its just how he portrays his story, deal with it.

So if an author wills it, then it's completely immune to criticism. Hold on, I'm off to compile a children's book about a savage minotaur raping children

Aohige_AP

And whats so inappropriate about the gore in HxH? If Togashi wants to portray his story realistically and brutally well then thats his business. Its not really anything to be mad about its just how he portrays his story, deal with it.

Uh

No, that's not how magazines work. None of us are mad about anything, simply disturbed since you know, considering WSJ's demographic.

And exactly which hole did you crawl out of?
I've never seen you post here before, and now you're posting crap everywhere.
Were you like a dormant egg or something

dan2026

And whats so inappropriate about the gore in HxH?

Its not inappropriate, its just wildly over the top at times, to the point where it almost comes of as silly.

You can have grim mature situations and violence, without the need to show people's heads exploding in detail.

tupadre97

@Gliblord:

So if an author wills it, then it's completely immune to criticism. Hold on, I'm off to compile a children's book about a savage minotaur raping children

If the author wants to make a series that is violent and targeted for teenagers then whats the problem? HxH is not a kids manga so whats the problem? If there is blood and gore in it then its obviously not for kids so why do u keep insisting that it is?

Aaronrules380

@Gliblord:

So if an author wills it, then it's completely immune to criticism. Hold on, I'm off to compile a children's book about a savage minotaur raping children

DOn't forget that the key theme should be the glories of committing genocide against innocent peoples. And lets add a ton of horribly offensive racist stereotypes in, just for good measure. After all, you can't get criticized for how you choose to write a story

Aohige_AP

If the author wants to make a series that is violent and targeted for teenagers then whats the problem? HxH is not a kids manga so whats the problem? If there is blood and gore in it then its obviously not for kids so why do u keep insisting that it is?

Are you not aware that this runs in a kids magazine?
The target demographic for Weekly Shounen Jump is low to mid teens.

In my days in Japan, we were reading WSJ as young as 8~10.
I was more of Korokoro comic reader till age 12 though.

Demonicpoodle

Uh

No, that's not how magazines work.
And exactly which hole did you crawl out of?
I've never seen you post here before, and now you're posting crap everywhere.
Were you like a dormant egg or something

As soon as he said Akainu was a "top tier" in one of his other posts, I went ahead and looked him up at Narutoforums. It probably has to do with him being banned there.

Aohige_AP

@Demonicpoodle:

As soon as he said Akainu was a "top tier" in one of his other posts, I went ahead and looked him up at Narutoforums. It probably has to do with him being banned there.

Well that explains it.
He seems to be doing a fine job repeating that experience.

tupadre97

Uh

No, that's not how magazines work. None of us are mad about anything, simply disturbed since you know, considering WSJ's demographic.

And exactly which hole did you crawl out of?
I've never seen you post here before, and now you're posting crap everywhere.
Were you like a dormant egg or something

Who cares if thats not what the magazine wants he's doing it anyway and they don't seem to mind, they just censor it. And don't give me that demographic bs because there are far more brutal shonen besides HxH (like Attack on titan for instance).@dan2026:

Its not inappropriate, its just wildly over the top at times, to the point where it almost comes of as silly.

You can have grim mature situations and violence, without the need to show people's heads exploding in detail.

It being over the top isnt a bad thing though. Who cares if Togashi wants to show heads exploding in detail it makes it more realistic.
@Aaronrules380:

DOn't forget that the key theme should be the glories of committing genocide against innocent peoples. And lets add a ton of horribly offensive racist stereotypes in, just for good measure. After all, you can't get criticized for how you choose to write a story

Uhh when did Togashi ever go that far?
@Aohige_AP:

Are you not aware that this runs in a kids magazine?
The target demographic for Weekly Shounen Jump is low to mid teens.

In my days in Japan, we were reading WSJ as young as 8~10.
I was more of Korokoro comic reader till age 12 though.

Yea that still doesn't matter. If u don't like the gore the don't read it sheesh. Its not that hard to do. And ur acting like there aren't shonen that are even more brutal and gory than HxH when there are.

Aohige_AP

Who cares if thats not what the magazine wants he's doing it anyway and they don't seem to mind, they just censor it. And don't give me that demographic bs because there are far more brutal shonen besides HxH (like Attack on titan for instance).

Which I addressed in this VERY THREAD already, if you were paying attention. Major three magazines are stricter than the small frys.

Bessatu Shounen Magazine (Where Attack on Titan is published) = 60,000 copies printed per month
Weekly Shounen Jump (The LARGEST PUBLICATION IN JAPAN) = 2,600,000 copies printed PER WEEK. Literally 170 times the publishing count of the other.

Jesus, do you REALLY want to argue with me on things like this?
Because, not to brag, but you're kinda in a disadvantage here.

Robby

If the author wants to make a series that is violent and targeted for teenagers then whats the problem? HxH is not a kids manga so whats the problem? If there is blood and gore in it then its obviously not for kids so why do u keep insisting that it is?

You realize that before it comes out in a trade, it IS printed in a kids magazine first, right? So yes, it IS a kid's manga.

tupadre97

Which I addressed in this VERY THREAD already, if you were paying attention. Major three magazines are stricter than the small frys.

Bessatu Shounen Magazine (Where Attack on Titan is published) = 60,000 copies printed per month
Weekly Shounen Jump (The LARGEST PUBLICATION IN JAPAN) = 2,600,000 copies printed PER WEEK. Literally 170 times the publishing count of the other.

Jesus, do you REALLY want to argue with me on things like this?
Because, not to brag, but you're kinda in a disadvantage here.

So because HxH is publish in a more popular magazine all of a sudden Togashi can't make his story the way he wants? Because thats obviously not the case if they still let him publish there and its still very popular. If ppl don't seem to mind the gore then who cares. Its censored anyway so whats the problem?

Nobodyman

It being over the top isnt a bad thing though. Who cares if Togashi wants to show heads exploding in detail it makes it more realistic.

I can't believe you're describing exploding heads as being "realistic".

Robby

Nothing more to see here folks. Carry on as you were.

Aohige_AP

So because HxH is publish in a more popular magazine all of a sudden Togashi can't make his story the way he wants? Because thats obviously not the case if they still let him publish there and its still very popular. If ppl don't seem to mind the gore then who cares. Its censored anyway so whats the problem?

We were talking about early in the Ants arc, which is now censored.
None of us are discussing this in present tense…. Christ, can you re-read the thread please?

And yes. We're not talking about just a little more "popular magazine". It's ONE HUNDRED SEVENTY TIMES MORE POPULAR magazine.
We're talking about the LARGEST published magazine in ALL of Japan. Weekly Shounen Jump gets hit for public scrutiny more than any other shounen magazine.

FFS, I've spent twenty years in Japan, I kinda have a clue on just how big WSJ is.
Togashi still got away with it, yes, and that bothered some people. That's what this is all about.

EDIT: Oh. Meh.

MiyamotoMusashi

Can i ask who did not get away with it? Especially someone who has a successful series like HxH? I am just asking because i actually don´t know about the WSJ background.

Aohige_AP

@MiyamotoMusashi:

Can i ask who did not get away with it? Especially someone who has a successful series like HxH? I am just asking because i actually don´t know about the WSJ background.

WSJ used to get away with a lot. Hokuto no Ken is an obvious one, but Jungle King Taachan is also extreme on another.
I mean, he swore cunt, dick, etc, used his penis skins to fly, and constantly masturbated.
But as the years went along and Dragon Ball propelled Jump to the uncontested king of shounen manga throne, obviously it became much more visible in public eye… and eventually censorship caught up.

Also keep in mind, the target demographics has changed over the years.
See, when I was a kid.. we had other really young shounen manga magazines such as aforementioned Koro-Koro and "First Grade" through "Six Grade" magazine.
But vast majority of those mags died, and kids shifted to WSJ... bringing the demographics down a significant notch.
With much less choices for younger kids, most of the children shifted to Sunday, Jump, and Magazine... mainly the first two.
Magazine somehow stayed a bit older through the years, likely since it didn't really do a cultural shift in the contents.

MiyamotoMusashi

WSJ used to get away with a lot. Hokuto no Ken is an obvious one, but Jungle King Taachan is also extreme on another.
I mean, he swore cunt, dick, etc, used his penis skins to fly, and constantly masturbated.
But as the years went along and Dragon Ball propelled Jump to the uncontested king of shounen manga throne, obviously it became much more visible in public eye… and eventually censorship caught up.

Also keep in mind, the target demographics has changed over the years.
See, when I was a kid.. we had other really young shounen manga magazines such as aforementioned Koro-Koro and "First Grade" through "Six Grade" magazine.
But vast majority of those mags died, and kids shifted to WSJ... bringing the demographics down a significant notch.

Well, that explains a lot of course. The thing i am most curious about and which probably is hard to answer without being in the business, who actually wanted to be a bit more "mature" but was not allowed to do so during the really successful years of WSJ (don´t know when the popularity increased)? Maybe i am a bit too naive about this but considering how hard it is to actually get a series into WSJ, i would imagine that the authors would customize their content appropriately without the magazine telling them, so there should not be a lot of series to compare to HxH regarding "explicit content". Now, if there are actually authors who have been told to turn it down a notch while at the same time, Togashi was allowed to publish his content, then that would be unfair of course.

Aaronrules380

@MiyamotoMusashi:

Well, that explains a lot of course. The thing i am most curious about and which probably is hard to answer without being in the business, who actually wanted to be a bit more "mature" but was not allowed to do so during the really successful years of WSJ (don´t know when the popularity increased)? Maybe i am a bit too naive about this but considering how hard it is to actually get a series into WSJ, i would imagine that the authors would customize their content appropriately without the magazine telling them, so there should not be a lot of series to compare to HxH regarding "explicit content". Now, if there are actually authors who have been told to turn it down a notch while at the same time, Togashi was allowed to publish his content, then that would be unfair of course.

Shingeki no Kyojin's author initially pitched the manga to Jump, but they wanted him to make changes, so he moved to another magazine instead

Aohige_AP

@MiyamotoMusashi:

Well, that explains a lot of course. The thing i am most curious about and which probably is hard to answer without being in the business, who actually wanted to be a bit more "mature" but was not allowed to do so during the really successful years of WSJ (don´t know when the popularity increased)? Maybe i am a bit too naive about this but considering how hard it is to actually get a series into WSJ, i would imagine that the authors would customize their content appropriately without the magazine telling them, so there should not be a lot of series to compare to HxH regarding "explicit content". Now, if there are actually authors who have been told to turn it down a notch while at the same time, Togashi was allowed to publish his content, then that would be unfair of course.

Aaron already covered Shingeki. It was basically turned down for the exact reason you ask.
Death Note was extremely risque for WSJ, and still amazes me it was allowed. The Editor in Chief made a very flexible, albeit business-driven, decision.
Just few years before DN, Katsura was turned down from being able to do dark, morally ambiguous super hero in WSJ. He took his work to the seinen sister magazine, and published it as Zetman.

MiyamotoMusashi