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On an unrelated note, the flashback that was poorly paced in the manga has been done pretty well in the anime.

Up is down, left is right, dogs and cats living together…

MasterKingJC

MasterKingJC

Well, well, well. Look who I found on some random forum on the interwebs.

!

Tsukishima

Tsukishima

I am glad this guy was banned. I couldn't stand his username, it was deforming the forum pages.

Robby

Robby

@MasterKingJC:

Well, well, well. Look who I found on some random forum on the interwebs.

!

Oh yeah, I forgot I banned him. I'd only meant to do it for a day as a joke. Did I set it for permanent?

Oh well, no huge loss apparently, guy didn't have a sense of humor.

His username stretched the forum brackets anyway.

Diego

D

Diego

**Here is some info that you might find interesting:

Over the past 200 episodes the big three (One Piece, Naruto, and Bleach) have had their share of filler episodes. I decided to compare them to see just how they each fared against one another. I included all movie tie ins, recaps and specials. Here are the stats:

One Piece
Range of Episodes: 294-494
Filler Episodes: 27
Content Episodes: 173
Chapters Covered: 175.5 (409-584)

Naruto Shippuden
Range of Episodes: 6-206
Filler Episodes: 77
Content Episodes: 123
Chapters Covered: 222 (249-470)

Bleach
Range of Episodes: 117-317
Filler Episodes: 90
Content Episodes: 110
Chapters Covered: 225 (199-423)

So for the people that complain about the pacing of one piece, here is why they do it.**

Robby

Robby

So, both Naruto and Bleach have far more stand alone filler arcs, but still manage to cover FIFTY more manga chapters when they actually do the manga material?

It should be one or the other… to somehow manage BOTH?

God, no wonder OP's pace sucks.

Not only is the filler embedded into the cannon, they cover less material too. OP chapters are a lot denser as well, they shouldn't need as much filler padding.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

Toei are just terrible.

If you look at Toriko, they've shoehorned the entire first volume into two episodes. Now I'm all for starting things off at a brisk pace, but that is pretty silly. They even axed a bit of manga content to do so.

Just bad planning all round.

RPGJay

R

RPGJay

@MasterKingJC:

Well, well, well. Look who I found on some random forum on the interwebs.

! [qimg]http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/5196/voilacapture45.png[/qimg]

Lol looks like someone missed the point.

Oh well.

tatermoog

tatermoog

Thanks for posting that, Diego.

The Bleach comparison comes with some pretty substantial caveats, since an issue of Bleach usually contains about 1/3 the actual content of an issue of One Piece. But the Naruto comparison is worth considering.

I'm not asking that you do this, but I would actually be more interested in the stats on the first 300 or so episodes of One Piece. I'm pretty sure that there's a difference between saying the show has terrible pacing now and saying the show as a whole has bad pacing. It's only recently that the show has devolved from "middling" to pretty terrible.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

One piece had canon material that was fairly untouched and episodes with a decent runtime of new content and was fairly filler free until the end of skypeia
One piece had canon material that was fairly untouched and episodes with a decent runtime of new content until end of rocketboy
One piece had canon material that was fairly untouched until end of CP9

Kaiolino

Kaiolino

The anime was mostly enjoyable 'till that new director showed up in Enies Lobby.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

filler bark .

tatermoog

tatermoog

filler bark .

We have a winner. If the unnecessarily long intro material was trimmed off of Enies Lobby, it still was pretty enjoyable. Thriller Bark is where the anime took a pretty substantial nosedive. Sabaody redeemed it somewhat, but it's been pretty rough since then.

Still, judging from the last two episodes, some of the absolutely horrifying pacing in Marineford seems to have been a product of the source material. The manga's Marineford Arc was pretty great, sure, but it primarily focused on several set-piece battles and relatively little dialogue (plus shorter chapter length). I've been of the opinion that the anime should improve once we start the movement towards the New World, and it looks like it might be starting the process a bit earlier than expected.

KaizokuOLuffy

K

KaizokuOLuffy

@RobbyBevard:

So, both Naruto and Bleach have far more stand alone filler arcs, but still manage to cover FIFTY more manga chapters when they actually do the manga material?

Not only that, but 1 Naruto Shippuden episode usually covers 3 or 4 chapters with little to no filler (not sure about the filler thing, though), unlike One Piece and GREAT animation for ALMOST EVERY EPISODE. That's why I prefer Studio Pierrot to do One Piece.

Even though they do more filler episodes, one can easily ignores them and just watch the canon material.

TheCook

TheCook

I think Marineford was a test of how bad One Piece could get and still have viewers. LOL
The anime is so far behind the manga, they should have been able to at least fit a couple more chapters in an episode when needed.

Hell, I would have preferred some feudal era filler, or even the cover stories to be animated so we can fix the pacing issue.
Why are the current episodes (the last two) such an improvement? Who is expecting filler episodes right after the flashback?

tatermoog

tatermoog

@TheCook:

Why are the current episodes (the last two) such an improvement? Who is expecting filler episodes right after the flashback?

The flashback issues might have been boring in comparison to Marineford, but they didn't rely so extensively on reaction shots, double-spread epic shots that didn't necessarily translate well to anime. Plus, they generally had a good deal more dialogue and character introduction. This makes it far easier for the anime to pad them out with ways other than "OYAJIIIIIIIIII".

TheCook

TheCook

DBF = Oyabin!!!!! Nyu! Oyabin!!!!

I didn't find the war very interesting in the manga or the anime, the flashback was pretty good in the manga.
I don't get why in the war, none of the other commanders could do much. These were people from the New World and the Pacifista's were easily enough to beat most of them.

Robby

Robby

Still, judging from the last two episodes, some of the absolutely horrifying pacing in Marineford seems to have been a product of the source material. The manga's Marineford Arc was pretty great, sure, but it primarily focused on several set-piece battles and relatively little dialogue (plus shorter chapter length). I've been of the opinion that the anime should improve once we start the movement towards the New World, and it looks like it might be starting the process a bit earlier than expected.

I have adressed this point at length before.

@RobbyBevard:

The Marineford battle had hundreds of characters in it and spreads full of DOZENS of actions going on at once! Oh no, how could they possibly draw upon that material and expand upon it?

Seriously. Before the anime got there people were expecting the war filler would be better than Impel Down because there was going to be SO MUCH to choose from. Like every single panel Oda had 20 guys doing 20 different things, and the spreads even more so. And when Oda started dozens of battles and then cut away and didn't show their conclusion? it should have been one of the richest and easiest sources for filler of all time, especially when all those characters clearly had unique abilities and personalities going on. Particularly with that kind of wealth of minor characters that aren't ever going to do anything again.

Captain Nipplehammer alone pulling stuff out of his hammerspace pocket could have been entertaining. Including a kitchen sink!

Hell, keeping track of established characters alone like Coby, Smoker, Mihawk and Hancock should have made it a breeze. (The one big complaint people had during the manga run was it kept missing characters for 3 chapters at a time. A complaint that dies instantly when you read it in one go.)

Competent writers and directors would have had a dream job padding that out with actions and little bits if they'd cared or put forth any actual effort. I mean, NON STOP ACTION. HUNDREDS OF CHARACTERS. But apparently its all horrendous Buggy comedy material instead?

tatermoog

tatermoog

@RobbyBevard:

I have adressed this point at length before.

Fair, and a reasonable expectation. But I'm trying–and perhaps failing--to explain why the last two episodes have been so much better without a substantial change in approach to the anime. Toei has been remarkably--and unfortunately--consistent in its approach to adapting the manga for the past few years. The way they approached Marineford--trying to "faithfully" adapt the material in the issue and stretching the time by terrible self-contained filler and stretching out all canonical moments to the point of comedy--was in keeping with this. Nothing has changed in the last two episodes, it's just that the approach they use is much better suited for episodes like the flashback arc.

Robby

Robby

Because Buggy and Hancock aren't there so they can't go for the easy fall backs?

Probably because the adventures of three little boys in the woods is easier to grasp than a grand epic war with hundreds of characters. Granted, that grand epic war was full of material to draw from… but these are the same guys that didn't even make use of the general zombies on Thriller Bark and skip all the cover stories.

tatermoog

tatermoog

@RobbyBevard:

Because Buggy and Hancock aren't there so they can't go for the easy fall backs?

I still haven't figured out why these two became the easy fall-backs. Voice actors must be extremely available. Of all the characters taking place, Coby would have made the most sense, though I rather dislike him.

Probably because the adventures of three little boys in the woods is easier to grasp than a grand epic war with hundreds of characters. Granted, that grand epic war was full of material to draw from… but these are the same guys that didn't even make use of the general zombies on Thriller Bark and skip all the cover stories.

Yeah, I used to be a pretty big defender of the anime, but the issues in pacing become much more noticeable now that I'm following it on a weekly basis and not watching a batch of 5-6 episodes at a time sans long intros. Still willing to say the anime has its place and as a series is not paced terribly, but I can't defend JINBE PUNCH.

TheCook

TheCook

When the anime was first starting, was there a good reason to rewrite so much of the story?
They had to edit out Luffy cutting himself, but what about the order of events? Nami appeared super early in the manga,
Luffy's past wasn't shown right at the beginning, and other things. Wasn't it more costly to rewrite those events?

Robby

Robby

I still haven't figured out why these two became the easy fall-backs. Voice actors must be extremely available.

Lazy writing.

@TheCook:

When the anime was first starting, was there a good reason to rewrite so much of the story?

Different mediums. Pacing. When trying to drag people into a television show, you want to start with a bang and show off what the show has to offer (devil fruit powered stretchy luffy and high seas adventures) more so than a slow build dramatic thing where the hero is picked on, doesn't do anything except get almost killed repeatedly and cry alot.

Plus, you don't want people thinking the show is going to be all about Shanks.

The manga got that out of the way in one oversized chapter (with color pages!), amidst 19 other stories and it was fine, and it could build from there, because you're pretty much guaranteed people buying the magazine will be back the next week for the other stories in the mag they already like, and eventually it got put into a single volume with 9 other chapters of Luffy's story next to it.

Nami… well you don't want to have a character appear for 10 seconds and then not appear again for 10 episodes.
Zoro's flashback was expanded quite a lot, so pushing that back a little makes more sense. Moving Gaimon around to after the Usopp arc... still doesn't make sense, but whatever.

TheCook

TheCook

I guess that makes sense.
Speaking of laziness, why don't they use the reanimated scenes from the movie for the anime?
When we get the flashback about Shanks losing his arm, and giving Luffy the hat, those scenes were re animated in the movies.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Besides the pacing, some censoring that doesn't make sense is bothersome.
Look at the DBF where it said Luffy was scorched and burned. In the manga, he looked burned and in bad shape, in the anime he looked scuffed up.

AMS

A

AMS

Fact: The two cover stories they did animate were boring wastes of time that weren't necessary for propelling the story at large. Anyone who couldn't figure out why Helmoppo and Coby were big shots in the marines, or how buggy came back are idiots.

Fact: The gaimon story was stupid in the anime and manga.

The only cover story I would like to see animated is the Eneru one, all the others are cool, but are not important enough to have much impact on the story. When we meet Hachi and Cammie we don't really need to know how they came together or why, that stuff isn't important to their role in the story at large. If anything it takes away from the story because it detracts from Hachi's history with Nami.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

I think you'll find that those are opinions, not facts. The cover stories were fun and help flesh out the characters for when they return to the story proper.

A manga reader links camie to hachi as soon as she appears again in the story proper.
A manga reader appreciates crocs speech about not caring about the world outside until he hears that newgate is vunerable that much more.
A manga reader sees that helmeppo is trying harder to not be the brat from volume 1. And so does an anime watcher since toei used to try harder with this series.

etc etc

And gaimon was fun.

tatermoog

tatermoog

Fact: The two cover stories they did animate were boring wastes of time that weren't necessary for propelling the story at large. Anyone who couldn't figure out why Helmoppo and Coby were big shots in the marines, or how buggy came back are idiots.

The Coby/Helmeppo animation primarily was about getting those two into the Navy, sure, but I think a significant secondary concern was introducing Garp. The Buggy critique is fair, though folk probably would've complained if he showed up fit and healthy for no good reason (could be done in a five-minute flashback).

The only cover story I would like to see animated is the Eneru one, all the others are cool, but are not important enough to have much impact on the story. When we meet Hachi and Cammie we don't really need to know how they came together or why, that stuff isn't important to their role in the story at large. If anything it takes away from the story because it detracts from Hachi's history with Nami.

I actually agree that I preferred the slow reveal re: Hacchi in the anime. But the arc that I think might have done some good in the anime (assuming that we agree on Enel since it has, you know, important story material) is Ace's Search for Blackbeard. Ace is barely in the anime before viewers were expected to regard his imminent death as highly dramatic. The material in that cover story arc might not have been that important, but it would have given anime viewers a chance to identify with his character just a tiny bit more, which might have given Marineford a little more impact.

AMS

A

AMS

I think you'll find that those are opinions, not facts. The cover stories were fun and help flesh out the characters for when they return to the story proper.

A manga reader links camie to hachi as soon as she appears again in the story proper.
A manga reader appreciates crocs speech about not caring about the world outside until he hears that newgate is vunerable that much more.
A manga reader sees that helmeppo is trying harder to not be the brat from volume 1. And so does an anime watcher since toei used to try harder with this series.

etc etc

And gaimon was fun.

I've seen many people in this thread represent their opinions as "facts" I might as well join the party as it were.

All that stuff in the manga was fun, but it wasn't important, well aside from the strawhat seperation series which I think was animated?

TheCook

TheCook

I think Toei did a great job on the Coby Helmeppo story.
The Enel, CP9, Croc, Wapol, and some of the others should be animated.

AMS

A

AMS

The Coby/Helmeppo animation primarily was about getting those two into the Navy, sure, but I think a significant secondary concern was introducing Garp. The Buggy critique is fair, though folk probably would've complained if he showed up fit and healthy for no good reason (could be done in a five-minute flashback).

I actually agree that I preferred the slow reveal re: Hacchi in the anime. But the arc that I think might have done some good in the anime (assuming that we agree on Enel since it has, you know, important story material) is Ace's Search for Blackbeard. Ace is barely in the anime before viewers were expected to regard his imminent death as highly dramatic. The material in that cover story arc might not have been that important, but it would have given anime viewers a chance to identify with his character just a tiny bit more, which might have given Marineford a little more impact.

I don't really remember much about the Ace story. I watched the anime up to cp9 prior to reading the manga and I have to say that addition of ace during the arabasta filler did a nice job of getting us to care about the character a bit.

@TheCook:

I think Toei did a great job on the Coby Helmeppo story.
The Enel, CP9, Croc, Wapol, and some of the others should be animated.

Instead of other pointless filler? Sure. But I don't think we miss out on anything if we know that CP9 basically become pirates, or that Wapol becomes some kind of toy baron.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

I've seen many people in this thread represent their opinions as "facts" I might as well join the party as it were.

You might as well not.

All that stuff in the manga was fun, but it wasn't important, well aside from the strawhat seperation series which I think was animated?

Characterisation, understanding motives, understanding what has brought a character to a certain point, appreciating when events from the covers are moved back into the story proper…I see all of that as important, as it enhances the story.

AMS

A

AMS

You might as well not.

Characterisation, understanding motives, understanding what has brought a character to a certain point, appreciating when events from the covers are moved back into the story proper…I see all of that as important, as it enhances the story.

yeah it was so important that we see the further adventure's of wapol, or Gedatsu starting a spa, you know since we cared so much about them during their own arcs. Forget Rob Lucci's characterization in the actual story, that part where his friends raised money for his hospital stay was so satisfying and important.
end sarcasm

Maybe you enjoy them on a deeper level but you cannot make a case that Wapol's, Gedatsu's, CP9's, or most of the barouqe works one are important to understanding or appreciating the ongoing story of one piece.

TheCook

TheCook

I actually liked seeing CP9 bowling, it made them look normal.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

yeah it was so important that we see the further adventure's of wapol, or Gedatsu starting a spa, you know since we cared so much about them during their own arcs. Forget Rob Lucci's characterization in the actual story, that part where his friends raised money for his hospital stay was so satisfying and important.
end sarcasm

Well it's about as much as oda gave them in the entirity of CP9 anyway.

Maybe you enjoy them on a deeper level but you cannot make a case that Wapol's, Gedatsu's, CP9's, or most of the barouqe works one are important to understanding or appreciating the ongoing story of one piece.

In the end I don't have to. Oda put it in the manga, so the anime planners should put in the anime. There's no point trying to second guess which ones will turn out to have any significance, otherwise the hachi one would have been dismissed as a throwaway ending for the character, and not a bridge to meeting up pre-saobondy.

AMS

A

AMS

Well it's about as much as oda gave them in the entirity of CP9 anyway.

In the end I don't have to. Oda put it in the manga, so the anime planners should put in the anime. There's no point trying to second guess which ones will turn out to have any significance, otherwise the hachi one would have been dismissed as a throwaway ending for the character, and not a bridge to meeting up pre-saobondy.

meh people need to recognize that adaptations aren't going to be exact. The anime isn't perfect but it wasn't hurt because Zeff didn't eat his own leg, or we didn't see how Luffy got his eye scar.

And stuff like the Hachi back story didn't help anyone understand the arc better. It was just a nice little treat to see how he got from point a to point b, which we normally don't see because he is a supporting character. Oda just thought of something cool to do with the covers, but overall I reckon most of them are about as important to the story as pandaman.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

meh people need to recognize that adaptations aren't going to be exact. The anime isn't perfect but it wasn't hurt because Zeff didn't eat his own leg, or we didn't see how Luffy got his eye scar.

And yet if they had animated them, toei would have had more leeway to tighten marineford up. And there's never a downside to animating canon material. It should always be the first choice, not the last, as it has been with toei for the last eight years or so.

And stuff like the Hachi back story didn't help anyone understand the arc better. It was just a nice little treat to see how he got from point a to point b, which we normally don't see because he is a supporting character. Oda just thought of something cool to do with the covers, but overall I reckon most of them are about as important to the story as pandaman.

It helped redeem him somewhat. Same as Helmeppo. So when he finally turns up again readers aren't rooting for zoro to slice him open.

Robby

Robby

When I started on the series, and was watching the anime before reading the manga, I was INCREDIBLY excited about Buggy fighting Gaimon. Because it seemed like it was going that direction and I said to my friend that was also watching "Holy crap! Short buggy is going to fight the guy in the box!" And it was hilarious and great and I enjoyed it immensely. Especially the fact that they then became friends.

Its one of my fonder memories of early in the series. And nowadays the anime would have just cut it entirely.

Darkstorm

Darkstorm

Mod

I loved buggy vs the cannibals.

Robby

Robby

Maybe you enjoy them on a deeper level but you cannot make a case that Wapol's, Gedatsu's, CP9's, or most of the barouqe works one are important to understanding or appreciating the ongoing story of one piece.

World building.
Character building.
Canon source material.
Possible later signifigance?
Endings for characters we spent dozens of episodes watching.

They're all great reasons the material should be adapted. Theres not a single good reason they shouldn't.