Tales of Series

[KaizokuFan22]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

June 6th I believe.

i hope thats the right release date..its still TBD on most game sites

[BaronVonShredinStien]

Hmm…It seems as though all the sites I used for reference have changed since I last looked. My bad. =(

[stephen]

Got Tales of Hearts R, but I'm really bummed to learn that the add-on game (Infinite Evolve) that uses the original 2D sprites from ToH is download-only, which means if I want to redeem my code, I have to buy another stupidly expensive memory card to put a JP PSN account on, and reset all of my vita settings each time I want to switch between the two… Yeah I doubt I'm going to do that just for a simple arcade game.

[tatermoog]

Well, poop: No plans to bring Vita Tales games to North America.

[KaizokuJinbei]

@tatermoog:

Well, poop: No plans to bring Vita Tales games to North America.

I can completely understand their reasoning.

[Cyber-Robin]

Damn. That was the only thing I was looking forward to on the Vita aswell :( Strange that there's no dev plans for the PS4 tho.

[ex720]

Well, if he still would like westerners to experience Tales of Hearts this probably won't help.

[tatermoog]

I understand the basic idea. I do think, however, that if they did bring the game over, a significant proportion of Vita owners would buy it.

[Foolio]

@tatermoog:

I understand the basic idea. I do think, however, that if they did bring the game over, a significant proportion of Vita owners would buy it.

So like, 5 people?

It's sad though. If translation is what they're worried about, I bet they could get fan groups to do it for free and better than anyone they would pay to do it.

[Cyber-Robin]

They could just put it on the PSN store too and sub it. Would maybe take some of the charm away from the title but people would still buy it.

Didn't these titles not do so great in Japan too? Or so I heard. Considering the majority of the titles on the Vita are PS3 ports. Coudln't they just reverse it and get it out on there where it will likely sell more?

[tatermoog]

@Foolio:

So like, 5 people?

Har. Fair point.

Was just thinking about how Persona 4: Golden was considered a success despite limited install base (though I think it did much better in Japan than did the Tales PSV game). Feel like it's a game that would be well-received by the demographic that actually owns Vitas.

[stephen]

@Foolio:

I bet they could get fan groups to do it for free and better than anyone they would pay to do it.

False and false.

[Foolio]

@stephen:

False and false.

Why do you say that? Look at a project like the Mother 3 fan translation. They had to thoroughly hack the code in countless nasty ways to even get it to display English properly, let alone translate it (and then further teams localized it to other languages). It was done with way more love than you see in official translations.

[stephen]

Yeah, and that's like…one of three examples of excellent, professional-level fan translation hacks that have been produced in like fifteen years of emulation history. The rest of them are shit, why? Because it's fan-made and they don't have the experience or the skill to do it right.

8-4 has translated the last several Tales games that made it out here, they're some of the best in the business, and I guarantee their effort would far outclass any fan group.

It sucks that Namco is not willing to give the Vita titles a shot, but let's face it, the Vita was DOA and nothing will save it in the West. It would be poor allocation of resources to push titles for a system with practically zero install base. Even if it did somehow, against all odds, make them a profit, I'm certain there are other projects that would be far more worth their time to pursue.

[tatermoog]

I have no clue about the relative costs of localizing a game like Tales of Hearts, which handicaps pretty much everything I say from this point, but part of the reason I thought Namco could expect it do reasonably well is this: http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2013/04/08/north-american-psn-charts-for-march-2013-atelier-totori-1-on-vita-survival-instinct-beats-tomb-raider-and-bioshock/ A game like Atelier Totori Plus, a very niche title released with little fanfare and absolutely no market, tops the charts for March 2013 on the Vita. And it was released halfway through March, too.

Of course, the main game had already been localized for PS3, so they could port it to Vita with little cost, but there's little question that Vita users are in the market for RPGs of any stripe, and I can only suspect a Tales of… game would do even better.

I just wish I had a stronger sense of the actual concrete numbers behind all of this, and I'm not willing to trust VGChartz.

[Foolio]

@stephen:

Yeah, and that's like…one of three examples of excellent, professional-level fan translation hacks that have been produced in like fifteen years of emulation history. The rest of them are shit, why? Because it's fan-made and they don't have the experience or the skill to do it right.

8-4 has translated the last several Tales games that made it out here, they're some of the best in the business, and I guarantee their effort would far outclass any fan group.

Out of curiosity, which ones did 8-4 work on? Anyway, a major problem with a lot of fan translations is just a lack of organization (and the fact that hacking is required slows, or completely halts many projects). I wonder if "we will consider officially releasing if your script is good enough" would be any greater incentive.

[stephen]

According to this: http://8-4.jp/gameography/?lang=en

They did Graces, Abyss, Vesperia, the Symphonia Wii spinoff, and Radiant Mythology for PSP.

[yamatadragon]

Tales of Xillia Collector's Edition

!

Game comes out August 6th for US and August 9th for Europe. The CE will be sold "at participating retailers" in North America and online at Namco's Tales store in Europe but the online store will only have 10,000 copies.

EDIT: CE will be $99.99 for North America and €99.99 for Europe.

[KaizokuJinbei]

http://mynintendonews.com/2013/05/12/gamecubes-tales-of-symphonia-hd-remaster-coming-to-playstation-3/

I would LOVE to play ToS in HD

[Cyber-Robin]

Didn't Nintendo have something to do with the release of these? Can't remember if it was publishing or helping to translate. Either way, if they still have something to do with it and it's not coming to the Wii U I'd be very surprised to see it come out over here

[Foolio]

I would buy the shit out of ToS for PS3. I wonder what they mean by remastered. One could dream that they voiced the skits. Or dual audio. If not I would probably buy the Japanese version which already has voiced skits. I am crazy enough to already own the original Gamecube game in English AND Japanese. Of course the added content from the PS2 version would be welcome.

[DarthAsthma]

Sounds cool haven't played symphonia yet but man I'm so burned out on tales, and with the rate they're increasing it's getting harder and harder to stay on top of them. I still have to finish graces and in theory I want to get to hearts r at some point.

[Foolio]

I think I would rank Symphonia ahead of Graces. Despite the battle system in Graces that everyone thinks is amazing, I don't think the rest of the game actually makes it better overall. Plus Symphonia has a real world map like Vesperia! I also think the Ex-gem system is way better than the skill systems in other Tales (Vesperia, Xillia etc). Symphonia also has the best Devil's Arms quest by far (Fell Arms).

[tatermoog]

The overall plot of Symphonia is a little silly, but in terms of characters, it's got the best mix of the games I've played. Then again, I seem to be in the minority regarding most of the non-Yuri characters in Vesperia.

So, yeah, I'd agree, it's my personal favorite of the bunch.

It's a shame that I probably have more enthusiasm for this than I do for Tales of Xillia.

[Foolio]

I kind of liked the concept of the Symphonia story; the execution was a bit lacking though. But that's sort of the Tales status quo.

Don't be ashamed of wanting this more than Xillia. Xillia is a legitimately mediocre Tales game.

[Hiroy]

ToS honestly felt like a slog for me to play though. The battle system felt really heavy and stiff and there were barely any moments where randoms seemed threatening enough, despite the huge variation of types and designs. That and the puzzles in the dungeons felt rather unnecessary most of the time. The cast was "alright", but I guess I wasn't too into the rather plain and subtle designs for the characters themselves. I've always felt like the fashion sense and art-style in the Tales games rather standard(loved Phantasia's though).

I guess what I'm saying is… ToS felt like a rather safe and casual RPG. And that's fine. There's obviously the difficulty modes, but again. The only thing that changes are stats with ridiculously multipliers, and with how stiff the battle system felt... it was just not fun to play tactically at all. It also seemed kinda shallow (at the time I played it) that the difficulty could be changed at anytime during the playthrough.

[Foolio]

@Hiroy:

ToS honestly felt like a slog for me to play though. The battle system felt really heavy and stiff and there were barely any moments where randoms seemed threatening enough, despite the huge variation of types and designs. That and the puzzles in the dungeons felt rather unnecessary most of the time. The cast was "alright", but I guess I wasn't too into the rather plain and subtle designs for the characters themselves. I've always felt like the fashion sense and art-style in the Tales games rather standard(loved Phantasia's though).

I guess what I'm saying is… ToS felt like a rather safe and casual RPG. And that's fine. There's obviously the difficulty modes, but again. The only thing that changes are stats with ridiculously multipliers, and with how stiff the battle system felt... it was just not fun to play tactically at all. It also seemed kinda shallow (at the time I played it) that the difficulty could be changed at anytime during the playthrough.

Are you sure you are talking about ToS, and not the piece of garbage spin-off sequel? Because if you were talking about Dawn of the New World, I would be in complete agreement with you. That battle system felt really slow, clunky, and uninteresting.

ToS itself is actually pretty fast-paced with a lot of potential for chaining and stun locking. Actually people cite it as one of the most broken battle systems if you know how to exploit it (infinite combos and stuff) but for normal people that's not really an issue. I also think it's a pretty deep battle system. The Ex-gem abilities give you a lot of ways to change up behavior (including adding chaining between usually non-chainable moves), as well as the Unison Attacks. Also overlimit actually means something in ToS (non-stagger is just one effect, but for example Sheena's summons only come out during overlimit). The different characters have very diverse battle styles as well.

There is also the title system which instead of being useless (Vesperia) actually affects the distribution and amount of stats you gain each time your character levels, so you actually feel motivated to attain titles. Some of them are ridiculously hard to get though. They tried to make titles relevant again in Graces but it was a completely overwrought wreck where everything ever was a title and it was basically just a second, parallel leveling system that was a pain to micromanage. When you gain 5 titles per battle it stops meaning anything.

ToS also has gameplay elements they discarded in later incarnations. These include (hidden) character affection levels depending on skits and event choices that actually impact in-game events in small and big ways, costumes and items that cannot be all obtained in a single playthrough, and different combat move development paths for characters where you have to choose between learned movesets.

I think it's pretty fantastic. If for some reason you think it's too easy, there's a reason they include battle difficulty levels. I have gotten schooled plenty of times for trying to tackle regions I shouldn't have entered yet.

[BaronVonShredinStien]

I would have to agree with Hiroy
ToS is really slow and clunky compared to what succeeded it. Exploitable or not doesn't make it any less clunky, And even the games that use the same battle system that Symphonia started are still slow and clunky compared to Graces. The whole Ex-gem system is just a lesser form of the skill system Vesperia used and the Overlimit system in Symphonia was almost unpredictable and annoying to use, which is the one thing I will say Abyss has over the other Tales games was that everyone had their own Overlimit bar, which you could use when you saw fit. And almost every tales character has a diverse battle style within their respective game, even the PS3 version of Vespera Yuri and Flynn have totally different play styles, Same goes for Guy and Luke, despite them sharing weapons.

While Titles do actually do something in Symphonia, I never really felt obligated to get them, that's an opinion of course, but honestly even on higher difficulties you don't need those titles to get through the game, I don't mean to be contrary but the only game where they have made a huge difference is Graces. Where each title gave you new abilities and even new moves for while you're in combat, so you were actually motivated to change titles rather than find one you like and stick with it through the whole game.

The affection levels and the move development are probably the only unique feature that Symphonia had that brings something new to the table, and even then you could make the debate that Vesperia had move development as well. I am by no means trying to say Symphonia is bad, it's a great game, I just don't think it's as great as you make it sound. There isn't a whole lot in Symphonia that wasn't done better in a later game, or at least was given a second chance to be better in a later game.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

ToS is really slow and clunky compared to what succeeded it. Exploitable or not doesn't make it any less clunky, And even the games that use the same battle system that Symphonia started are still slow and clunky compared to Graces.

Can you describe what you mean by "slow?" The action pace isn't actually any slower and if anything it's faster than Graces where you run out of CC and have to stop your attack. Vesperia is a much more comparable battle system. The big difference is the ability to free run in Vesperia, which basically feels like cheating if you ask me. They fixed this in Graces by making it consume CC to do. In the end it's just opinion but it sort of baffles me to call it slow. Clunky may be more debatable depending on what you mean but I found it as smooth as any other Tales game. You did have to actually learn the combo system a bit though, since standard attacks were different when done with different directional inputs (forward hit, down hit etc.) and the direction chosen DID make a difference in what could chain to what else. But I consider that depth.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

The whole Ex-gem system is just a lesser form of the skill system Vesperia used

I highly disagree. Ex-gems are quite a bit more strategic because they are permanent. Once you set a gem, you have to destroy it to set a different gem. The gems were of different levels so you had to decide carefully what combination to use, especially since the higher level ones are really in quite limited supply. You have to blow a lot of GRADE to buy more after that. And it wasn't as simple as "higher level is better" because of all the combo abilities that you got from specific combinations of gems, and those were cross-level. Of course all of the abilities are also character-specific. I think the only thing close to this in Vesperia was the fact that some of your artes got altered if you had certain skills set. But in Symphonia you generate brand new skills. Also in Vesperia by the time you've leveled up a reasonable amount, you can pretty much turn on every skill that matters. It's not very strategic.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

the Overlimit system in Symphonia was almost unpredictable and annoying to use

It's certainly different from later games where they re-purposed the concept of Overlimit as a super meter for mystic artes. While unison attacks aren't as awesome as some mystic artes, they do offer variety. Anyway it wasn't unpredictable. It follows very specific rules. It just isn't a gauge on your screen to make it glaringly obvious when it will occur.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

And almost every tales character has a diverse battle style within their respective game, even the PS3 version of Vespera Yuri and Flynn have totally different play styles, Same goes for Guy and Luke, despite them sharing weapons.

I said that simply to defend the fact that combat is varied and dynamic.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

While Titles do actually do something in Symphonia, I never really felt obligated to get them, that's an opinion of course, but honestly even on higher difficulties you don't need those titles to get through the game, I don't mean to be contrary but the only game where they have made a huge difference is Graces. Where each title gave you new abilities and even new moves for while you're in combat, so you were actually motivated to change titles rather than find one you like and stick with it through the whole game.

Of course you don't NEED them. But they were significant for anyone looking to develop their characters better and in specific ways. Again, it was rather strategic. I guess that's becoming a theme here. ToS is a pretty strategic game compared to most Tales games.

Titles mattered more in Graces because like I said, they were practically a parallel leveling system. Every stupid thing you do in the game, every single move you learn, gives you a title. And sinking CP (just a parallel form of Exp…) into them leveled up your stats. It's not even comparable to the title system in games before or after it (Xillia for example, where they are also useless). And guess what? In Symphonia, titles don't just give you fixed stats. They change the amount and distribution you get every time you level. So if you level up a lot before getting a good title, you missed a lot of potential stat points. Strategy!

@BaronVonShredinStien:

you could make the debate that Vesperia had move development as well

How so? I was talking about the fact that depending on how you perform in battle (and of course there is equipment to influence this), your characters become either S(word)-Type or T(ech)-Type. Each character learns different moves depending on their type. Of course some moves are learned regardless. And this can make a big difference! It can, for example, be the entire difference between an offensive or defensive Raine. It can be the difference between learning Photon or Holy Lance. You can, of course, tip the scale and make your character switch types. But then all moves from the other type become unusable (you may even forget them entirely and have to relearn them later if you switch back; I forget).

You're obviously free to disagree with any and all of my points, but I'm describing why I think it's such a solid game that takes one of the top spots in my book. And I didn't really realize until this post that a huge part of it is the amount of strategy involved that doesn't quite manifest in other games. You can always grind or brute-force but for people looking for intricacies (like me) it's really cool. You know the one thing I did hate? Those damn clay figurines. Makes it a bitch for completionists!

By the way there are tons of other things I didn't even touch on. I would argue, for example, that ToS has hands-down the best soundtrack. Vesperia's is also quite good, but I think Symphonia was Sakuraba's peak. The Graces and Xillia soundtracks were crap. I also think that it has the best post-game dungeon, with the exception of Vesperia's PS3-exclusive Telescopic Graveyard. Oh! And for whatever reason Hiroy doesn't like the fact that they had actual puzzles in dungeons. Sure dungeons were shortish, just like in all Tales games, but they probably had the best puzzles (from sliding ice blocks to wind puzzles to switch puzzles etc).

[BaronVonShredinStien]

@Foolio:

Can you describe what you mean by "slow?" The action pace isn't actually any slower and if anything it's faster than Graces where you run out of CC and have to stop your attack.

What I mean when I say slow I mean some of the animations themselves are slow, performing a backstep in Symphonia is really off setting to the speed Lloyd usually moves, also with the exception of Lloyd and maybe Sheena, attacking in Symphonia is rather slow. It's not that bothersome, it's just something you notice when you go from Graces or Vesperia to Symphonia or even Abyss.

@Foolio:

The big difference is the ability to free run in Vesperia

How could you call the ability to free run cheating? Wouldn't that fit under "depth"?

@Foolio:

You did have to actually learn the combo system a bit though, since standard attacks were different when done with different directional inputs (forward hit, down hit etc.) and the direction chosen DID make a difference in what could chain to what else. But I consider that depth.

Whenever I'm playing a Tales game, I tend to play a lot with my friends, they are interested in the story, and enjoy being able to join me for the fighting, but I have always had to teach them a bit so that they can play the game well, it's not like you can button mash to victory in a tales game. The direction you input for attacks changing the attacks you can chain is more of a handicap than "depth". I would say not having something limiting what you can chain and being able to chain together the proper moves because you are capable of doing so is what I call depth.

@Foolio:

I highly disagree. Ex-gems are quite a bit more strategic because they are permanent.

I won't disagree that you had to think harder about what you were doing with the character, but I don't think that makes them any more strategic than the skills in Vesperia. Sure some of the skills were no brainers for certain characters (Yuri probably should always have Multi-Step) but there was a large variety of things you would have to equip to chain certain moves together in Vesperia, You couldn't always chain a Base arte to an Altered arte to an arcane arte, you had to have the right skill equipped, continuing with your theme of "strategy" it was possible to change Estelle from a back row caster to a very effective front-line fighter, you just needed to have the right skill equipped. Symphonia isn't the last time the series has required thought to your character development. Being able to change it on the fly gives you more startegies to play with rather than being stuck with what you pick.

@Foolio:

And guess what? In Symphonia, titles don't just give you fixed stats. They change the amount and distribution you get every time you level. So if you level up a lot before getting a good title, you missed a lot of potential stat points. Strategy!

I'll say it again. While, yes it does change the kind of stats you get every time you level up, it serves almost no purpose, you can still play through the game on the highest difficulty without ever changing your title once. It's not strategy it's just a feature that exists because the tales series has always had a title feature.

@Foolio:

How so? I was talking about the fact that depending on how you perform in battle (and of course there is equipment to influence this), your characters become either S(word)-Type or T(ech)-Type. Each character learns different moves depending on their type. Of course some moves are learned regardless. And this can make a big difference!

@Foolio:

I think the only thing close to this in Vesperia was the fact that some of your artes got altered if you had certain skills set.

You kind of answered yourself there, but I'll add to it. When you use an arte more in Vesperia it can grow more powerful, Dragon Swarm and Cerberus Strike gain more hits, When you're using an axe, Shining Fang has less strikes, that'll change if you use it often enough. I'm not saying it's as in depth as the S or T of Symphonia, but it's not the only or last time that moves evolved as you grew more powerful.

Also, almost all tales games have puzzles in their dungeons…just saying.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

What I mean when I say slow I mean some of the animations themselves are slow, performing a backstep in Symphonia is really off setting to the speed Lloyd usually moves, also with the exception of Lloyd and maybe Sheena, attacking in Symphonia is rather slow. It's not that bothersome, it's just something you notice when you go from Graces or Vesperia to Symphonia or even Abyss.

Backstepping is definitely floaty in Symphonia but I think the idea is that you shouldn't be able to run away and put huge distance between you and your enemies so easily. In Graces any kind of back or side-stepping required CC, which is a slight justification for making it faster. As for the characters being slow, I think that really only applies to Presea and Colette. Colette is a hard character to use, but if you look up videos online she's actually probably the strongest human character by playing her correctly. Still, she probably isn't even close to as slow or clunky as Karol in Vesperia. Regal is not fast on the ground but his advantage is in the air and can rapidly close distance with aerial moves. He is rather akin to Judy. Presea is basically the tank. She's not supposed to be fast. But she swings a mean axe. Kratos/Zelos are pretty decent all-arounds and aren't slow either.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

How could you call the ability to free run cheating? Wouldn't that fit under "depth"?

No. It's basically a sure-fire formula to avoid 95% of enemy attacks instantly and makes most things other than bosses and possibly ranged enemies quite easy. It doesn't add a layer of strategy, it adds a layer of "make everything easier." Man if I could free run in that duel between Sheena and Kuchinawa it would have been nub stuff.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

Whenever I'm playing a Tales game, I tend to play a lot with my friends, they are interested in the story, and enjoy being able to join me for the fighting, but I have always had to teach them a bit so that they can play the game well, it's not like you can button mash to victory in a tales game. The direction you input for attacks changing the attacks you can chain is more of a handicap than "depth". I would say not having something limiting what you can chain and being able to chain together the proper moves because you are capable of doing so is what I call depth.

Do you realize what you just said? "Complexity in a battle system makes my friends perform badly so it's just a handicap." And you know, I have a feeling your friends would be better than the AI regardless of their skill level. But if your desired quality in a game is that your friends can pick it up easily, rather than gameplay complexity that can be rewarding to master, clearly our priorities are very different. And it's not like it takes a million years to learn how to chain combos.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

I won't disagree that you had to think harder about what you were doing with the character, but I don't think that makes them any more strategic than the skills in Vesperia. Sure some of the skills were no brainers for certain characters (Yuri probably should always have Multi-Step) but there was a large variety of things you would have to equip to chain certain moves together in Vesperia, You couldn't always chain a Base arte to an Altered arte to an arcane arte, you had to have the right skill equipped, continuing with your theme of "strategy" it was possible to change Estelle from a back row caster to a very effective front-line fighter, you just needed to have the right skill equipped. Symphonia isn't the last time the series has required thought to your character development. Being able to change it on the fly gives you more startegies to play with rather than being stuck with what you pick.

You would have sort of a valid point here if I hadn't mentioned the part where once you level up a bit you can pretty much activate every skill you have. In fact there's a good chance you'll be able to use the majority of your skills throughout the majority of the game, unless you are making a point to farm weapons and learn all the skills off them. It is true that there are a few skills that you would want to selectively enable and disable, such as some that add elemental attributes to specific moves that may or may not benefit you at a certain time. But that's not any more deep than just staying away from certain artes because they are ineffective. I'm not saying it was a bad system; it was fun, but it was nothing like configuring your Ex-skills and special skills. And I have partially the same argument against it as I do against titles in Graces – it's annoying to micromanage your titles all the time, because most likely all you'll be doing is leveling up and turning on another skill you couldn't afford before.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

I'll say it again. While, yes it does change the kind of stats you get every time you level up, it serves almost no purpose, you can still play through the game on the highest difficulty without ever changing your title once. It's not strategy it's just a feature that exists because the tales series has always had a title feature.

Now I'm sorry but this is a rather silly argument. There are people out there that do all kinds of challenge runs. Low level runs (there's always a 1/2 exp bonus in the GRADE shop in Tales games too), no item runs, no upgrade runs, speed runs. That doesn't mean leveling isn't useful, or that items are not useful, or that upgrading is not useful. It is not the most significant aspect of the game, and you can ignore it if you don't care, but it's a great reward for people who choose to utilize it. I saw someone who hacked the game solo Abyssion on the highest difficulty (was it Mania or Unknown?) at level 5. I guess gaining levels is optional and serves no purpose!

@BaronVonShredinStien:

You kind of answered yourself there, but I'll add to it. When you use an arte more in Vesperia it can grow more powerful, Dragon Swarm and Cerberus Strike gain more hits, When you're using an axe, Shining Fang has less strikes, that'll change if you use it often enough. I'm not saying it's as in depth as the S or T of Symphonia, but it's not the only or last time that moves evolved as you grew more powerful.

I'm not arguing that there is no nuance in other Tales games (I love every one I've played except Xillia which was pretty crummy). I just think Symphonia has the most.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

Also, almost all tales games have puzzles in their dungeons…just saying.

Again, my exact words were that it has the BEST puzzles. They were more difficult and more elaborate than the others. That isn't saying a whole lot since they still aren't super hard (I'm playing Fez right now, there is no comparison) but they are executed the best, especially in accordance with dungeon themes. Even the optional stuff, like to summon Maxwell.

Oh, but I did find something else Symphonia doesn't excel at: minigames. It has a few fun ones but nothing really exciting. The warehouse game in Vesperia was quite good.

[BaronVonShredinStien]

@Foolio:

No. It's basically a sure-fire formula to avoid 95% of enemy attacks instantly and makes most things other than bosses and possibly ranged enemies quite easy. It doesn't add a layer of strategy, it adds a layer of "make everything easier." Man if I could free run in that duel between Sheena and Kuchinawa it would have been nub stuff.

So not having to run straight at a ranged attacker isn't strategy? Having to option to dodge isn't strategy? I don't understand what you consider strategic. Symphonia was designed to not give you the ability to free run, as such you do have more invincibility frames when you dodge (which is probably why it's floaty) But with Vesperia and Abyss the frames are far less and as such you can't dodge something like a demon fang by performing a backstep.

@Foolio:

Do you realize what you just said? "Complexity in a battle system makes my friends perform badly so it's just a handicap." And you know, I have a feeling your friends would be better than the AI regardless of their skill level. But if your desired quality in a game is that your friends can pick it up easily, rather than gameplay complexity that can be rewarding to master, clearly our priorities are very different. And it's not like it takes a million years to learn how to chain combos.

It's not about them performing badly, It's the fact that when you're limited to what you can chain by the move you performed, that's one extra thought process, but I'll drop this point, mostly because Symphonia is not very Multiplayer friendly anyways (Camera doesn't pan out, it'll only focus on Player 1) and the fact that Graces is still harder to teach someone to play anyways due to all the dodging you have to do to perform well.

@Foolio:

You would have sort of a valid point here if I hadn't mentioned the part where once you level up a bit you can pretty much activate every skill you have. In fact there's a good chance you'll be able to use the majority of your skills throughout the majority of the game, unless you are making a point to farm weapons and learn all the skills off them. It is true that there are a few skills that you would want to selectively enable and disable, such as some that add elemental attributes to specific moves that may or may not benefit you at a certain time. But that's not any more deep than just staying away from certain artes because they are ineffective. I'm not saying it was a bad system; it was fun, but it was nothing like configuring your Ex-skills and special skills. And I have partially the same argument against it as I do against titles in Graces – it's annoying to micromanage your titles all the time, because most likely all you'll be doing is leveling up and turning on another skill you couldn't afford before.

How high of level are you talking about? I average about a level 70 party for Verperia's endgame, and I still can't equip everything I want for a character. It's not until NG+ with the x2 EXP bonus that I get high enough leveled to get everything I want, and by that time I don't see why it matter since you've been through the game already anyways.

@Foolio:

Now I'm sorry but this is a rather silly argument. There are people out there that do all kinds of challenge runs. Low level runs (there's always a 1/2 exp bonus in the GRADE shop in Tales games too), no item runs, no upgrade runs, speed runs. That doesn't mean leveling isn't useful, or that items are not useful, or that upgrading is not useful. It is not the most significant aspect of the game, and you can ignore it if you don't care, but it's a great reward for people who choose to utilize it. I saw someone who hacked the game solo Abyssion on the highest difficulty (was it Mania or Unknown?) at level 5. I guess gaining levels is optional and serves no purpose!

I suppose I did suggest that it serves no purpose and for that I apologize, but unless you have the patience to get every title or are really-really trying to min-max a character, what you're probably going to end up doing it finding 1 you like and sticking with it through the entire game.

@Foolio:

Again, my exact words were that it has the BEST puzzles. They were more difficult and more elaborate than the others. That isn't saying a whole lot since they still aren't super hard (I'm playing Fez right now, there is no comparison) but they are executed the best, especially in accordance with dungeon themes. Even the optional stuff, like to summon Maxwell.

Oh, but I did find something else Symphonia doesn't excel at: minigames. It has a few fun ones but nothing really exciting. The warehouse game in Vesperia was quite good.

I'll concede this one mostly because I can't remember Symphonia's dungeons that well at the moment. The only one I can remember is "The Temple of Lightning" and all I remember is finding it rather irritating, and yes, there is no comparison between Fez and ToS…they are totally different games. As for the minigames, Abyss had the warehouse minigame as well, and honestly if you're into block pushing puzzles, play one of the Legacy of Kain games, at least any of them post Blood Omen 1...they are really nothing but block puzzles.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

So not having to run straight at a ranged attacker isn't strategy? Having to option to dodge isn't strategy? I don't understand what you consider strategic. Symphonia was designed to not give you the ability to free run, as such you do have more invincibility frames when you dodge (which is probably why it's floaty) But with Vesperia and Abyss the frames are far less and as such you can't dodge something like a demon fang by performing a backstep.

I don't think something that is a given to do 99% of the time is strategy. Like if you had one weapon that was better than every other weapon in every stat, then equipping it isn't strategy, it's just a given. In this analogy, it would be strategic if you had several comparable weapons in terms of stats, but they had differing elemental properties and maybe bonus effects. Then you'd actually have a choice that required thinking. If free-run wasn't the first thing you went into at the start of every battle, and it had actual downsides or reasons not to use constantly up until the second you start a combo, it would be strategic. Maybe if it reduced your speed to 1/2? Consumed TP? Made you take 3x damage while doing it? But nope, no downside.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

It's not about them performing badly, It's the fact that when you're limited to what you can chain by the move you performed, that's one extra thought process, but I'll drop this point, mostly because Symphonia is not very Multiplayer friendly anyways (Camera doesn't pan out, it'll only focus on Player 1) and the fact that Graces is still harder to teach someone to play anyways due to all the dodging you have to do to perform well.

Yeah it's an extra thought process. When you remove all thought process it becomes a button masher. I appreciate the fact that unlike a lot of games, your standard attack is a little more than just something you mindlessly mash until it's time to do some specials.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

How high of level are you talking about? I average about a level 70 party for Verperia's endgame, and I still can't equip everything I want for a character. It's not until NG+ with the x2 EXP bonus that I get high enough leveled to get everything I want, and by that time I don't see why it matter since you've been through the game already anyways.

I'ts been a while but I'd say maybe around level 30 you become able to equip most of the useful abilities you come across. Unless, like I said, you're making it a point to collect every possible weapon. I don't remember ever having to put more than a few skills at bay (per character), and it's really easy to ignore unimportant ones like "slightly increase OVL when taunting." Even if you really can't equip everything you want, it's simply a matter of selecting all the best ones you can afford and turning them on. There is very little decision to be made, except the rare case maybe where you come across a good but very expensive ability and aren't sure if you want to equip 2-3 lower ones instead (and we mentioned altered artes already). But a lot of them are just small bonuses, and it's really no big deal if you use them or not. The really powerful ones are pretty obvious. Anyway like I already said it's a good system, but I personally still prefer Ex-gems where you'd better be damn sure you are optimizing your skills and using them in proper conjunction, if you want to give yourself a good advantage. And when you come across badass compound abilities it's really rewarding. Even non-compound ones. I love getting Randomizer on Genis, which makes your spell cast times random with one of the possibilities being instant cast. Time to spam high-level spells and spell-cancel them rapidly until they insta-fire.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

I suppose I did suggest that it serves no purpose and for that I apologize, but unless you have the patience to get every title or are really-really trying to min-max a character, what you're probably going to end up doing it finding 1 you like and sticking with it through the entire game.

Why does it have to be the extremes? You don't have to try to get every single title or wring out every single possible stat point. But it gives a decent incentive to seek out more titles, and adds a layer of character "build" possibilities where you decide what stats are most important or most lacking and focus on titles that supplement those. I mean to each his own, you seem to find it unworthy of your time whereas I think it's great. I could just as easily say that the skill system in Vesperia is not required at all and that it's not worth my time to fiddle with (that's not my actual opinion). But no matter what you can't say it isn't better than titles that do NOTHING like in Vesperia.

And it's not a huge effort. If you want to start talking about game mechanics that were too annoying for my time, I would quickly point to the dualization system in Graces. God that was horrible. All these complex goddamn rules about what abilities will stay on gear, how to make the abilities level up, what qualities you'll end up with, etc. Not to mention quality farming. I almost exclusively stuck to using it for synthing new items.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

and honestly if you're into block pushing puzzles, play one of the Legacy of Kain games, at least any of them post Blood Omen 1…they are really nothing but block puzzles.

Just because I enjoy a good puzzle-based minigame doesn't mean I want my entire game to consist of them. As for puzzles in dungeons, I guess I'd say the second-best ones are in Graces. Though some of them blur the line between good puzzles and annoying maze-like areas (Wallbridge & Amarcian ruins, for example). A couple of the later/future arc dungeons have nice puzzle mechanics though. As did the optional sand ruins.

[BaronVonShredinStien]

@Foolio:

I don't think something that is a given to do 99% of the time is strategy. Like if you had one weapon that was better than every other weapon in every stat, then equipping it isn't strategy, it's just a given. In this analogy, it would be strategic if you had several comparable weapons in terms of stats, but they had differing elemental properties and maybe bonus effects. Then you'd actually have a choice that required thinking. If free-run wasn't the first thing you went into at the start of every battle, and it had actual downsides or reasons not to use constantly up until the second you start a combo, it would be strategic. Maybe if it reduced your speed to 1/2? Consumed TP? Made you take 3x damage while doing it? But nope, no downside.

I'll agree that in Abyss it was broken, you really could dodge almost anything just by running in circles, but with Vesperia Yuri, Repede and maybe Judy (perhaps Flynn with the PS3 version) were the only characters normally fast enough to dodge by free-running, and really that was the point with Repede, he had those skills where he regained HP and TP by free-running. Sure you could buff a character's speed stat so they might be able to out run attacks by free-running but it's not a start of the game standard, there is no way Rita is getting away from some of the bigger attacks early on in the game.

@Foolio:

Yeah it's an extra thought process. When you remove all thought process it becomes a button masher. I appreciate the fact that unlike a lot of games, your standard attack is a little more than just something you mindlessly mash until it's time to do some specials.

After playing Symphonia again for a few hours I'm going to have to ask you to explain what you mean about limited by what you can chain. Do you mean the whole level 1 arte can chain to a level 2 or 3 but a level 2 can only chain to a level 3? Or are you talking about something else.

@Foolio:

Why does it have to be the extremes? You don't have to try to get every single title or wring out every single possible stat point. But it gives a decent incentive to seek out more titles, and adds a layer of character "build" possibilities where you decide what stats are most important or most lacking and focus on titles that supplement those. I mean to each his own, you seem to find it unworthy of your time whereas I think it's great. I could just as easily say that the skill system in Vesperia is not required at all and that it's not worth my time to fiddle with (that's not my actual opinion). But no matter what you can't say it isn't better than titles that do NOTHING like in Vesperia.

I'm not defending Vesperia's use of titles, nor do I condone what Graces did to try and make titles useful, but I just don't consider small amount of stat points gained in different areas incentive to go out of my way to get a character a new title.

@Foolio:

And it's not a huge effort. If you want to start talking about game mechanics that were too annoying for my time, I would quickly point to the dualization system in Graces. God that was horrible. All these complex goddamn rules about what abilities will stay on gear, how to make the abilities level up, what qualities you'll end up with, etc. Not to mention quality farming. I almost exclusively stuck to using it for synthing new items.

Lets not discuss that one…I still weep some nights away at the mere thought of having to try and deal with that again.

@Foolio:

Just because I enjoy a good puzzle-based minigame doesn't mean I want my entire game to consist of them. As for puzzles in dungeons, I guess I'd say the second-best ones are in Graces. Though some of them blur the line between good puzzles and annoying maze-like areas (Wallbridge & Amarcian ruins, for example). A couple of the later/future arc dungeons have nice puzzle mechanics though. As did the optional sand ruins.

Like I said, I don't remember Symphonia's dungeons, so I can't really give you a decent example one way or the other. I honestly didn't like Graces dungeon designs, I found most of them to be like those annoying maze-like areas, like the Arcadia Garden, Lastalia and Ghardia shaft, along with the 2 you mentioned are the first ones that jump to my mind. Though at the same time there were some decent puzzles in the game as well, Sand Shroud Ruins I think it was called, that actually required a bit of thought process to get through.

[Hiroy]

Wow. I missed alot here. There's a bit that I don't entirely feel like commenting on, as my gripes with the game is entirely personal. ToS just feels like it tries really hard to look and feel like a very old-school traditional RPG with stuff that is pretty much expected from the genre. And for that, it felt like an extremely shallow experience. And that's just the from the story and setting setup(things like getting revenge for a village burning down/killed parents, going into a series of dungeons to find elemental summons that are somehow tied to the plot, seeing towns get destroyed like it's supposed to be a surprise, scenarios where you are expectedly betrayed, a typical Midgard plotline with a war that uses some huge magical cannon, and a plotora of other things). I don't mind these scenarios for say, but often times it felt like they were tying to fill the shoes of a cliche trope, rather than making a compelling experience.

As far as puzzles goes, they just felt out of place most of the time. They were relatively okay in ancient ruins where testing the player with a trial is expected. But other times they felt so random. Especially block puzzles. One in particular I remember was within one(or several) of the enemy bases. You'd think the people running the place would have doors that can be only unlocked with keycards or something like that. But pushing blocks on panels? Hilariously I imagined the badguys pushing them in order to get around. Same could be said about other areas, like navigating the supposed hidden entrance within the sewer >_> I guess what I'm saying is that many of the puzzle felt rather out of place and artificial.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

I'll agree that in Abyss it was broken, you really could dodge almost anything just by running in circles, but with Vesperia Yuri, Repede and maybe Judy (perhaps Flynn with the PS3 version) were the only characters normally fast enough to dodge by free-running, and really that was the point with Repede, he had those skills where he regained HP and TP by free-running. Sure you could buff a character's speed stat so they might be able to out run attacks by free-running but it's not a start of the game standard, there is no way Rita is getting away from some of the bigger attacks early on in the game.

Karol can't dodge for crap because he is soooo slowww but free run is still better than not free run. As for Rita, she is the spellcaster. You're not supposed to melee with Rita. You stay far far away where dodging is actually possible, even from a good deal of ranged attacks. But the Repede thing even amplifies my point; now free-run is even BETTER than it already was. BTW yes it works with Flynn because he is decently fast.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

After playing Symphonia again for a few hours I'm going to have to ask you to explain what you mean about limited by what you can chain. Do you mean the whole level 1 arte can chain to a level 2 or 3 but a level 2 can only chain to a level 3? Or are you talking about something else.

I was actually talking about the fact that directional inputs could make a difference in tech chaining. For example, neutral->neutral->up->tech 1->tech 2 might chain fine but neutral->neutral->down->tech 1->tech 2 might not. This was mainly dependent I think on the fact that the enemy's position, and thus whether or not they get caught properly in your chain, could depend on your basic attacks. The rest of chaining mechanics that you mentioned, like going from one level another, is a separate matter. There are Ex-skills that affect those rules too.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

I'm not defending Vesperia's use of titles, nor do I condone what Graces did to try and make titles useful, but I just don't consider small amount of stat points gained in different areas incentive to go out of my way to get a character a new title.

Okay well we are down to a pure difference in play style so nothing further to be said here.

@BaronVonShredinStien:

Like I said, I don't remember Symphonia's dungeons, so I can't really give you a decent example one way or the other. I honestly didn't like Graces dungeon designs, I found most of them to be like those annoying maze-like areas, like the Arcadia Garden, Lastalia and Ghardia shaft, along with the 2 you mentioned are the first ones that jump to my mind. Though at the same time there were some decent puzzles in the game as well, Sand Shroud Ruins I think it was called, that actually required a bit of thought process to get through.

Yeah the sandshroud ruins are what I was referring to at the end. But yeah, the maze stuff is pretty lame. Can make any dungeon annoying, even if it has good puzzles. I don't think ToS is guilty of mazes.

@Hiroy:

Wow. I missed alot here. There's a bit that I don't entirely feel like commenting on, as my gripes with the game is entirely personal. ToS just feels like it tries really hard to look and feel like a very old-school traditional RPG with stuff that is pretty much expected from the genre. And for that, it felt like an extremely shallow experience. And that's just the from the story and setting setup(things like getting revenge for a village burning down/killed parents, going into a series of dungeons to find elemental summons that are somehow tied to the plot, seeing towns get destroyed like it's supposed to be a surprise, scenarios where you are expectedly betrayed, a typical Midgard plotline with a war that uses some huge magical cannon, and a plotora of other things). I don't mind these scenarios for say, but often times it felt like they were tying to fill the shoes of a cliche trope, rather than making a compelling experience.

So wait, are you talking about ToS specifically or just all Tales games? Because pretty much everything you mentioned applies to like, all of them. They don't even bother changing the names of the summons across games. People complain about the plots a lot too, if not in JRPGs as a whole. Personally that baffles me because I am thoroughly entertained even if cliches are used. It would be different if the writing were truly bad, but it's not. It's well-executed and without spoiling the plot, I think there were several cool ideas in ToS specifically. ToV only marginally escapes this criticism because of how Yuri is an anti-hero in many ways. I can't argue with you if you think the story is bad though; all I can do is disagree. You're certainly not alone. But I find it weird to apply it specifically to ToS.

@Hiroy:

As far as puzzles goes, they just felt out of place most of the time. They were relatively okay in ancient ruins where testing the player with a trial is expected. But other times they felt so random. Especially block puzzles. One in particular I remember was within one(or several) of the enemy bases. You'd think the people running the place would have doors that can be only unlocked with keycards or something like that. But pushing blocks on panels? Hilariously I imagined the badguys pushing them in order to get around. Same could be said about other areas, like navigating the supposed hidden entrance within the sewer >_> I guess what I'm saying is that many of the puzzle felt rather out of place and artificial.

This is a curious complaint. Are you the type of person who can't get through a Zelda game because you're too preoccupied wondering who hid all those rupees, arrows, bombs, and magic vials in tall grass patches and inside pots?

[BaronVonShredinStien]

@Foolio:

Karol can't dodge for crap because he is soooo slowww but free run is still better than not free run. As for Rita, she is the spellcaster. You're not supposed to melee with Rita. You stay far far away where dodging is actually possible, even from a good deal of ranged attacks. But the Repede thing even amplifies my point; now free-run is even BETTER than it already was. BTW yes it works with Flynn because he is decently fast.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Repede being the only exception, I don't think being able to free run is as broken as you think, it's a very useful ability that allows for more strategic movements and in the case of where I do play with friends, it allows for better set ups for better combos, and I'd rather it be useful for something than be completely useless like it is in Graces

@Foolio:

I was actually talking about the fact that directional inputs could make a difference in tech chaining. For example, neutral->neutral->up->tech 1->tech 2 might chain fine but neutral->neutral->down->tech 1->tech 2 might not. This was mainly dependent I think on the fact that the enemy's position, and thus whether or not they get caught properly in your chain, could depend on your basic attacks. The rest of chaining mechanics that you mentioned, like going from one level another, is a separate matter. There are Ex-skills that affect those rules too.

This applies for all tales games. If you do the wrong move you can knock an enemy out of your combo, even the combo happy Graces has issues like that (Asbel's Heaven's Wrath and Hubert's Dualblade Dance come to mind). Like I said, there are skills in Vesperia that change the rules to what you can chain as well.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

This applies for all tales games. If you do the wrong move you can knock an enemy out of your combo, even the combo happy Graces has issues like that (Asbel's Heaven's Wrath and Hubert's Dualblade Dance come to mind). Like I said, there are skills in Vesperia that change the rules to what you can chain as well.

It doesn't apply to all games, and it DEFINITELY doesn't apply to Graces because Graces doesn't even have standard attacks! It just has "A-artes" and "B-artes." A-artes are not standard attacks though. All kinds of moves can be executed, and they all have to be learned just like B-artes. And they consume CC just like B-artes. Really Graces has a unique battle system that can't be compared in any way to the standard variations.

[BaronVonShredinStien]

@Foolio:

It doesn't apply to all games, and it DEFINITELY doesn't apply to Graces because Graces doesn't even have standard attacks! It just has "A-artes" and "B-artes." A-artes are not standard attacks though. All kinds of moves can be executed, and they all have to be learned just like B-artes. And they consume CC just like B-artes. Really Graces has a unique battle system that can't be compared in any way to the standard variations.

@Foolio:

I was actually talking about the fact that directional inputs could make a difference in tech chaining. For example, neutral->neutral->up->tech 1->tech 2 might chain fine but neutral->neutral->down->tech 1->tech 2 might not. This was mainly dependent I think on the fact that the enemy's position, and thus whether or not they get caught properly in your chain.

That rule you mentioned right there applies to every Tales game that I've played, all the way back to Phantasia. Moves in Graces are different then other tales games, yes, but they still follow the same rule. You can't just hit every enemy with Asbel's Bestial Roar and hope to hit them with Heaven's Wrath in the same combo, it's just not going to happen. It has nothing to do with standard attacks, it's got to do with how performing a combo works, and like you said, it's dependent on the enemy's position.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

That rule you mentioned right there applies to every Tales game that I've played, all the way back to Phantasia. Moves in Graces are different then other tales games, yes, but they still follow the same rule. You can't just hit every enemy with Asbel's Bestial Roar and hope to hit them with Heaven's Wrath in the same combo, it's just not going to happen. It has nothing to do with standard attacks, it's got to do with how performing a combo works, and like you said, it's dependent on the enemy's position.

Um except I am talking about standard attacks specifically. The specific fact that directional input on standard attacks can make or break a combo.

[BaronVonShredinStien]

@Foolio:

Um except I am talking about standard attacks specifically. The specific fact that directional input on standard attacks can make or break a combo.

If the same rule applies to both games I don't see how it matters what you're talking about. All I basically did was replace the words "Standard attacks" with the words "A/B-Arte". But I'll just let it go, once again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Foolio]

@BaronVonShredinStien:

If the same rule applies to both games I don't see how it matters what you're talking about. All I basically did was replace the words "Standard attacks" with the words "A/B-Arte". But I'll just let it go, once again, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It's an objective situation so it's not really something we can disagree on if we both understand the facts. Maybe you've been arguing with me for so long that you forgot how this part of the discussion started. My original point was that in Symphonia, as opposed to several other Tales games, directional input on standard attacks makes a difference for your combos. Which makes standard attacks slightly more strategic and less "blah" in Symphonia. Now Graces has an incomparable battle system so it doesn't invalidate my claim. It simply treats ALL attacks like special moves. There are no "standard" attacks that consume no CC and can freely buffer other moves. I don't get why this is confusing to you.

[BaronVonShredinStien]

I get what you're saying. I just don't see it that way, but like I said, I'm letting it go.

[stephen]

After about 350 hours over two playthroughs, I'm done with Graces. Got my platinum. Got all the items, the enemy souls, the chats, the stamps, the titles, mastered and all. I'm DONE!

[Foolio]

You madman… I got my platinum in around 90 hours and just stopped.

In other news, Baba shattered the rumors of ToS Perfect edition :/

[Pochipochi]

i'm afraid to check stephen's trophy level honestly

the man has tales-related problems

[stephen]

oh my trophies are crappy, that was only like my second or third platinum (and one of them is Umineko, which is just a visual novel)

[DarthAsthma]

@Foolio:

You madman… I got my platinum in around 90 hours and just stopped.

In other news, Baba shattered the rumors of ToS Perfect edition :/

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/06/01/tales-of-symphonia-unisonant-pack-announced-for-playstation-3/

:)? I think he shattered something else.

[Gaiyae]

Sweet, ToS is one of my favorite GC games, and my favorite Tales Game.
And it's actually coming to EU/US!

[KaizokuJinbei]

awesomeness can't wait