Attack on Titan: Why Genocide Is Sometimes Kind of Okay

Kizuchan

Yeah, that's what I meant. I get what you mean with it's better than actually forgiving him. To me however this really leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. Still definitely consider this in my top ten manga because of how bold it most of the time was and showing great character moments.

I'm really curious if we will ever get an interview where the original bad ending will be revealed. Now more than ever I'm curious to find out how exactly it would have played out.

While it doesn't bother me that much, I totally get why that would bother people/you.

By the way, on a more general note, more pages are apparently scheduled for the volume release of the chapter. I'm curious where the additions will be put.

kouch_lee

I abandoned the manga a long time ago, I think as soon as the horror angle started to give way to the "conspirations + lore explanation + genetics or something" I kinda drifted away from it (even if I recall being slightly amused at Titan Mixed Martial Arts, for some reason). Thing is, it's been a long time, and I've been seeing tons of people on twitter going on and on and on about the anime as if it's the second coming of Animated Christ, and with my girlfriend we decided to give it a go - the animation during the action bits I alread saw some years ago and I was impressed, so maybe this could be the way to get back to the main story, now with awesome music (the opening SLAPS) and animation.

So I guess, here's the question (even though it's basically a rant)…when does it get good? Like, genuinely good? We weren't super thrilled with the overall pace and whiny dialogues + monologues + overabundance of "let's go back to that ONE scene where Armin, Eren and Mikasa where younger" scenes that seem made exclusively to pad out the runtime, but we were hanging in there. But last night we almost decided to drop it entirely after the dry run that is episodes 9-10-11 and its mindblowing abyssal pace, nerve grating dialogue that goes around in circles, the terrible inner monologues and basically how stale everything is. Does it get better? I know the source material still had some interesting beats and some horror juice left until Conspiracy Town at this point, but I seriously need the pace to drastically improve, and there's only so much whiny shouting I can take from Eren, Armin and company.

Do they get their shit together? Does it become a tighter, more exciting affair? Or do I abandon it for good, never to look back? (and maybe go back to the manga, which I at least can read at my own pace?)

Captain Krupp

I know not every thread needs a joke title but why didnt Attack on Titan get one?

Nobodyman

@Captain:

I know not every thread needs a joke title but why didnt Attack on Titan get one?

-All I Wanna Do Is See You Turn Into a Giant Titan
-Eren and Armin's Bogus Journey
-Attack of the 50 ft Caricatures
-Attack on Titan: Eren of the Rebellion R2
-Why Genocide Is Sometimes Kind of Okay

Nilitch

I mean, I personally don't give a shit. But isn't the title thread a spoiler ?

pariston_hill

So, are we getting the volume finale spoilers already?

!
Jean you madman you actually did it.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Holy LOL is this is true

!

Piitan

! The other spoiler was that the tree above Eren's grave had been infected by his corpse, turning into a new worm. At the end of the volume, Mikasa's kid goes to the grave and is bit by the worm, starting a new generation of titans.
! Yeah…

KageKageKing

@Piitan:

! The other spoiler was that the tree above Eren's grave had been infected by his corpse, turning into a new worm. At the end of the volume, Mikasa's kid goes to the grave and is bit by the worm, starting a new generation of titans.
! Yeah…

! Aw shit. Here we go again.

Lord Starfish

If all of that is actually true (I mean I'm seeing one image which in no way proves most of the stuff they claim) then

! yeah sorry this ending will have gone from "Clumsily handled though I at least get somewhat what it was going for" to "Absolute dogshit." Like, if the titans aren't gone for good and the island is destroyed anyway then literally… every last bit of the story was pointless.

Nobodyman

This post is deleted!

Piitan

The usual spoilers provider actually said:

"I don't know what's the point of snk anymore, I couldn't even believe the leaks this time, everything is meaningless."

Even arguably the biggest of fans (the man risked prison to release spoilers in the past) was broken by this shit-piling ending. I find it beyond hilarious.

Nobodyman

Lord Starfish

Those spoilers also feel like they directly contradict what we saw in the volume though. In which case I feel like the best case scenario (other than just "It's a big fat load of bullshit) would be that they are included as a "This was another ending I had contemplated but I dropped it" thing.

Piitan

Most of the 8 (?) pages is a coda. What we got in the magazine happened. Then this was the consequence, complete with

! the setting up of a possible sequel with Mikasa's kid as the next Ymir-like figure

maxterdexter

! Eh, I like it better than "genocide worked!"

Piitan

@maxterdexter:

! Eh, I like it better than "genocide worked!"

! "Genocide Was Useless and Will Lead to Another Genocide In the Future"?

HeartOfDarkness

I got no idea what the fuck is actually going on anymore now.

If the leaks are true then everything feels pointless.

Lord Gaimon

depending on the context paradis getting destroyed could be extremely kino

maxterdexter

@Piitan:

! "Genocide Was Useless and Will Lead to Another Genocide In the Future"?

Exactly .

zeltrax225

so basically, Floch was right

maxterdexter

He can join Neji in their own personal purgatory.

gyuukarubi

! After the manga ended, I wanted to sit on it for a while to understand what Isayama might be trying to say. I've concluded that it is true that Attack on Titan is a cyclical story, but not in the way you might think.
! Marley seems to be representative of an imperialist ethnostate in the midst of world domination. In order to unite the world, they have subjugated nearly all other nations — sans Paradis.
! If Paradis is destroyed, the world will finally be "united in peace." If you call rule under Marley "peace," as they clearly love their power as "benevolent kings."
! It's no mistake that Isayama chose to limit Marley's power to pre-WWII tech, as Marley would have won if the Manhattan Project played out in their world. All they need to do is wipe their enemies off the face of the planet. They have airships, battleships, and completely eradicating Paradis would have been easy for them.
! But they never expected that a small nation would suddenly attains the power to eradicate the world all at once: the power of the Titans. Or more directly, Eren's power.
! Eren is a young refugee turned soldier who initially and unwittingly turns against his own people, vowing to eradicate "every last one of those vermin" that destroyed his world.
! But once he learns the truth of his people, the Eldians, Eren turns to patriotism. Now a militant nationalist, he chooses the path that leads to the MOST suffering in the grand scheme of humanity. Because it's the only way to prevent the suffering of those he loves.
! Eren turns into a literal monster and destroys the entire world (or at least 80% of it, anyway), literally squashing them like vermin. He knowingly wipes out MILLIONS of innocents because it's the only way to dismantle the current regime in power.
! And at the end, Isayama CHOOSES to disarm Paradis of the power of the Titans in order to lead to peace. Now that the world has been destroyed, it is time to rebuild…
! But it seems that this is shortlived. Eren the monster has likely created THOUSANDS of Eren Yeagers. Just as he did with Gabi during his first assault on Marley. Just as Braun and Hoover did on Shiganshina. Just as it happened throughout time with the Eldians and Marleyans.
! Isayama has just revealed that Paradis will be destroyed in the distant future... meaning that peace will always be shortlived in this world. Armin and Mikasa will inevitably die, the world shifted again. And beneath a tree, lies Eren's head. The power never disappeared and another discovers what lies beneath... And so it goes, and so it goes.
! Quite an interesting tale. It seems to me that Isayama is writing solely about the cycle of justice, destruction, and war in the world.
! As a diligent reader (and armchair theorist) of the manga since 2011, this far surpasses my expectations of what the story would turn out to be. A fine fable.

Lord Starfish

! Reading more details that have come out since, it seems the whole "war that destroys Paradis" thing is a bit of an extrapolation from a collage of shots that go over an unspecified but probably very long time? Like, they're just saying it because in the final shot there's a forest in the background surrounding the Eren Tree rather than a city. And that all of this happens after Mikasa dies of old age, meaning that even if the implication is in fact that the island is ultimately torn apart by war, it happened centuries later. Which… makes it feel like a bit less of a slap in the face.
! Implying that the titan power is coming back is an absolute slap in the face though. Especially considering that this would be in the SAME CHAPTER that revealed that the death of Eren led to the titan power going away.

gyuukarubi

@Lord:

! Reading more details that have come out since, it seems the whole "war that destroys Paradis" thing is a bit of an extrapolation from a collage of shots that go over an unspecified but probably very long time? Like, they're just saying it because in the final shot there's a forest in the background surrounding the Eren Tree rather than a city. And that all of this happens after Mikasa dies of old age, meaning that even if the implication is in fact that the island is ultimately torn apart by war, it happened centuries later. Which… makes it feel like a bit less of a slap in the face.
! Implying that the titan power is coming back is an absolute slap in the face though. Especially considering that this would be in the SAME CHAPTER that revealed that the death of Eren led to the titan power going away.

! Until we can love one another, the cycle of violence will never end.
! I’m shocked that more readers didn’t see an ending like this coming… and I wonder how many readers’ first exposure to AOT was the anime. I read the manga first and recall being shocked at how hopeful the Wit Studio adaptation seemed. MAPPA gets it.

pariston_hill

@gyuukarubi:

! Until we can love one another, the cycle of violence will never end.
! I’m shocked that more readers didn’t see an ending like this coming… and I wonder how many readers’ first exposure to AOT was the anime. I read the manga first and recall being shocked at how hopeful the Wit Studio adaptation seemed. MAPPA gets it.

So Isayama did

! Naruto but wanking to fascism and Japanese militarism? That's it?
! At least Terra Formars threw that the eugenics clan was the real villain of the story.

Lord Gaimon

@pariston_hill:

So Isayama did

! Naruto but wanking to fascism and Japanese militarism? That's it?
! At least Terra Formars threw that the eugenics clan was the real villain of the story.

what are you talking about

zeltrax225

Wow I never expected the morale and lesson of the story that he spent many years crafting to be found from inferences made from an after story.
I mean it's not like he had all the time to set up an ending that would actually get it across! Those cursed self imposed deadlines!
What a beautiful solution to a complex problem, philosophers have hara-kiri themselves for not being able to solve hate for ages! The answer is that hate never ends, suckers!!! Great message, couldn't get that from a history book or common sense but it definitely drilled it's way into my mind after witnessing this inferno trainwreck.
Maybe that was the plan all along.

This is poignant, guy managed to make the people who was okay or liked the ending now either questioning themselves or outright hate it.
Masterful display.

pariston_hill

@zeltrax225:

Wow I never expected the morale and lesson of the story that he spent many years crafting to be found from inferences made from an after story.
I mean it's not like he had all the time to set up an ending that would actually get it across! Those cursed self imposed deadlines!
What a beautiful solution to a complex problem, philosophers have hara-kiri themselves for not being able to solve hate for ages! The answer is that hate never ends, suckers!!! Great message, couldn't get that from a history book or common sense but it definitely drilled it's way into my mind after witnessing this inferno trainwreck.
Maybe that was the plan all along.

To quote a MtG flavour text: "Hatred outlives the hateful."

Lord Gaimon

@zeltrax225:

Wow I never expected the morale and lesson of the story that he spent many years crafting to be found from inferences made from an after story.
I mean it's not like he had all the time to set up an ending that would actually get it across! Those cursed self imposed deadlines!
What a beautiful solution to a complex problem, philosophers have hara-kiri themselves for not being able to solve hate for ages! The answer is that hate never ends, suckers!!! Great message, couldn't get that from a history book or common sense but it definitely drilled it's way into my mind after witnessing this inferno trainwreck.
Maybe that was the plan all along.

This is poignant, guy managed to make the people who was okay or liked the ending now either questioning themselves or outright hate it.
Masterful display.

1-storytelling isn't about giving "lessons"
2-the way AoT explores it's various subject matters is indeed very poignant and nuanced, what's your problem with it exactly.

HeartOfDarkness

Lol there is no nuanced behind AOT subject matter.

AoT is a shonen series with lots of cool story choices but thematically, its pretty simple. Nobody would read the second half and not want Marleian people to be killed due to how evil they were.

This shit isnt Nausicaa. I already have a hard time understanding the purpose of the last chapter when it falls back to the most simple and cliched trope of how "world's problems didnt magically solve themselves" even though the scenario itself could easily have been written differently.

Lord Gaimon

@HeartOfDarkness:

This shit isnt Nausicaa. I already have a hard time understanding the purpose of the last chapter when it falls back to the most simple and cliched trope of how "world's problems didnt magically solve themselves" even though the scenario itself could easily have been written differently.

The political situation in the manga was deliberately contrived to be one of mass violence spiraling out of control for centuries. These kinds of racial hatreds almost never have peaceful solutions in the real world, they either end through genocide by one group or the other, or else through forceful suppression of the conflict by some new authority that abolishes the traditional system. That's the premise, the core theme of the manga it's not a "trope" and it's an important thing for the kinds of older children who read shonen manga to understand and engage with.
If there is a "lesson" to take from AoT is that there is no answer to the questions it raises, only a dialectical tension between violence and empathy, that continues indefinitely without ever being fully resolved.

HeartOfDarkness

I mean you dont need to read a shone series 30 something volumes long to see and understand.

Thats some TLOU2 level of "no shit, sherlock" when it makes the most obvious point.

And Marleian people are portrayed to be evil. Thats it. The entire argument with Gabbi and that girl that Sasha saved perfectly spells out how the narrative is framing Marleian people. I have no idea why AoT fanbase has a very large trackrecord of trying to pretend that the series is somehow nuanced and "deep" because it offers no real solutions or even properly raise the questions.

I love this series but man, people sure love to make the series sound like something its not. It has a cool plot but nothimg nuanced or complex to explore these themes in a meaningful way.

Lord Gaimon

@HeartOfDarkness:

I mean you dont need to read a shone series 30 something volumes long to see and understand.

What kind of response is this lol, you don't need to read any fictional story to understand an abstract concept, again fiction isn't about giving lessons.

And Marleian people are portrayed to be evil. Thats it. The entire argument with Gabbi and that girl that Sasha saved perfectly spells out how the narrative is framing Marleian people.

we were shown plenty of sympathetic Marleyans and we were giving logical reasons for why they believe what they believe they're not just cartoon monsters . That scene with Kaya does emphasize that the Marleyans are wrong but it also shows that they can be persuaded to change their beliefs.

I have no idea why AoT fanbase has a very large trackrecord of trying to pretend that the series is somehow nuanced and "deep"
I love this series but man, people sure love to make the series sound like something its not. It has a cool plot but nothimg nuanced or complex to explore these themes in a meaningful way.

Well I just gotta disagree then

zeltrax225

Gabi gets shit on the fanbase for killing Sasha despite going through actual character development but then we have Annie who's walking free from guilt despite killing Levi's entire squad and unnecessarily toying with them
Remind me why Levi didn't stab her again and how people are okay with Annie as long as they get their ship

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Lord:

1-storytelling isn't about giving "lessons"

exactly! this is exactly why people read AoT! It's all about mindless violence and meme faces!
That explains its popularity! All those real world references and deeper symbolism are just pretty drawings for more memes.

To be more objective in my reply and more specifically towards

If there is a "lesson" to take from AoT is that there is no answer to the questions it raises, only a dialectical tension between violence and empathy, that continues indefinitely without ever being fully resolved.

The issue isn't really as much as the world is shit and will continue to be but more of the characters made pretty shit choices despite the readers spending ages with them.
Like in series like Blade of Immortal which has a backdrop of chaos and hatred, the characters actually grew and made wise and meaningful choices that would be a step towards the right direction.
And you read that and you go, all right that's meaningful and if everyone in that world thought like the character it would be a good step forward despite the fact that most people wouldn't think that way.

In Aot, we get retarded choices from cuck master 80% speedrun "I don't know what I'm doing" Jaegar and "I only loved him a little" Mikasa to "Thanks for being a genocider, sobs and I'm going to get myself assassinated during peace talks because you couldn't finish your job you asshat" Armin.

Lord Starfish

! I would argue that by the final arc, most sympathetic characters left in the story were generally acting fairly heroically. Note that I am 1000% excluding Eren from that category. And if indeed the point of the entire story was meant to be all along that there's no real solution… Then the published version of 139 should not have ended the way it did. This added epilogue, unless there is something big we're missing from it as of yet, takes the ending we already had which at least had some sliver of hope to it that maybe they can make things work, and just spits in its face to go "NOOOOOPE, everything is irrevocably fucked anyway because Eren was just that big of a douche!"
...Eren was in fact that big of a douche, but between the repeated "Are you human or titan?" scene ending with Armin coming forward with his hands up arguing that if they were still capable of turning into titans they would have done so already, and the fact that the last time we see most of the remaining characters they're heading into peace negotiatons, the vibe of the ending we got in the magazine was very much leaning towards "We just might be able to finally fix things."
! …And then this new epilogue comes in and shows as an aside that Paradis, or at the very least Shiganshina, is laid to waste anyway and that the titans weren't truly gone. Which really feels like it's just un-tying the loose threads it tied up just a few pages prior and changes the tone of the entire story from a hopeful one to "It was all for nothing, they were fucked before they even started and despite this whole cataclysmic event where our remaining heroes put their differences aside to save what remains of the world from the biggest threat it had ever faced (who by the way also went to great lengths to single himself out as the one doing this and explicitly telling the entire world that he was doing it in retaliation for centuries of Eldian persecution) nothing ultimately changed."

Piitan

This coda really feels like Isayama intended Eren's genocide to be successful and to end the manga with him as a hero for the entirety of humanity, but the editors opposed it. So he went the other equally-shitty softer route. Once it became apparent that the majority of readers disliked it, he used this as a bargain chip with said editors to retcon part of the ending in the volume to still get part of the nihilistic ending he'd envisioned.

DoctorPhil

! I far prefer this downer ending over "genocide was worth it" garbage.

Green_vs_Red

If I recall correctly Isayama had years earlier intended to have a downer ending so he got it in a way, after seemingly changing his mind.

HeartOfDarkness

@Lord:

they're not just cartoon monsters .

I'm sorry but did we read the same story?

Isayama was pretty damn obvious in terms of framing paradise people in sympathetic light while Marleyans as the ultimate baddies. We hardly get any real point of view of actual Marleyans people. Majority, if not all, pov of characters that we get are Eldians, not Marleyans. It's on the same level as Ohara and its citizens being killed by Akainu for no real reason.

That's as basic of a narrative framing of Marleyans being portrayed as the ultimate evil as you can get. Nothing is nuanced about this.

you don't need to read any fictional story to understand an abstract concept

I mean, just because you read fictional stories for the sake of mindless entertainment doesn't really mean everyone else does too.

Every work of fiction has something to convey whether it be just entertaining the audience, exploring certain topics, showing certain emotions/feelings etc….AoT itself seems to have something to convey since the obvious imagery, metaphors, symbolism, references etc... point to something specific and have an intent rather than it being something thrown in a vacuum and manufactured.

pariston_hill

The extra pages on mangasee.

KageKageKing

! I don't see the worm, but the implications are there.

Satsuki

. . . . I don't get it.

HeartOfDarkness

! Everything repeats is what I gather.
! Some time in the future after Eren's death, Paradise is attacked and destroyed. I assume it's either Marleyan people or some other nation that decided to attack them and destoryed Paradise or at least the place where Eren's body was buried.
! The place where Eren was buried is becoming like the tree where Ymir first got the hallucigenia-type creature and became the titan so I take it that the kid, who is assumed to be Mikasa's kid, will find the creature, become a titan and then the entire conflict will repeat itself or something.
! As for what this actually means and what it wants to convey, I don't personally get it. There was a much more compelling way to fold this type of scenario while also bringing in the timeloop stuff that people heavily theorized.
! Edit: Actually that kid could be Mikasa's grandson or great grandson. The panel where we see Mikasa and Jean with their kid is followed by another panel with who I assumed is an really old Mikasa and Jean and then we see old Mikasa who has passed on or at least that's what it looks like to me. I assume the time jump is fairly big.

Satsuki

Well if that's what it means then that's one shitty ending.

HeartOfDarkness

Just waiting for someone to come in and go on about how brilliant this otherwise meaningless ending seems to be.

I'm open for different interpretations and being able to look at this stuff from a different point of view but so far, the ending is just awkward, and outta nowhere nonsense and this new addition doesn't really help. All of this needed more time to bake in the oven.

gyuukarubi

@HeartOfDarkness:

Just waiting for someone to come in and go on about how brilliant this otherwise meaningless ending seems to be.

I'm open for different interpretations and being able to look at this stuff from a different point of view but so far, the ending is just awkward, and outta nowhere nonsense and this new addition doesn't really help. All of this needed more time to bake in the oven.

I posted my take on the previous page. Personally, I can’t think of a more fitting end.

I think a lot of readers’ expectations were set by the anime, but this FEELS like the perfect way to conclude the manga. Wit Studio’s adaptation was too hopeful and they realized it too late.

zeltrax225

I'm going to pretend the manga ended when Eren decided to go full genocide and pretend he ended everyone else besides Paradise.

HeartOfDarkness

@gyuukarubi:

I posted my take on the previous page. Personally, I can’t think of a more fitting end.

I think a lot of readers’ expectations were set by the anime, but this FEELS like the perfect way to conclude the manga. Wit Studio’s adaptation was too hopeful and they realized it too late.

You can't think of a better ending other than the one that makes the entire series basically pointless and meaningless? The one that destroys the character arc of the main character? That fundamentally brings out ideas that were never build up and throws other stuff out the window? Not to mention how it fundamentally tries to make the most useless and boring character like Mikasa into like an important plot relevant character when her character has been nothing more than a generic killing machine that wants senpai to notice her.

I usually don't care about fans creating their own ending when they are dissatisfied with the actual ending but this is one of the rare moments where the ending created by the fans has a better grasp of the previous story stuff then the actual writer. Where they actually respect the story, themes and characters compare to the writer who seems like someone that literally forgot what he established in the first place.

This is some serious teenage edgelord material.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

Accurate.

Kizuchan

I think the story made it pretty clear far before this final chapter what it thinks about genocide.

The additional 6 pages really drove it in, though.

The only ones who benefitted from Eren's genocide were his friends and that's the most leeway he should be given. Those additional 6 pages show that Eren really did not fix anything in the bigger picture.

And genocide should not fix anything. It should be for nothing because otherwise it'll be portrayed as a viable solution to any problem and I feel like that's not something that should happen.

Unlike a portion of the redemption arcs of mass murderers in shounen, Eren is dead and the world heavily suffers from the consequences of his actions afterwards.

desa

I dont think making the genocide, have the main character die in good terms with the cast and the cast living happy knowing it was thanks to the genocide is much of a strong denouncement of genocide.

It protrays him to much as the guy that found the working middle ground. And killing 80% is not a middle ground.

I like the couple pages have Mikasa having a life which I prefer. But the ending is just more of a mess.