Powerup Predictions and Discussion
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Que: Angry debate about whether Chuck Norris is better than Bruce Lee xD
please don't :(
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If you think Luffy will not Surpass Whitebeard and Roger than i have noting left to say to you…
Its a theme of all Manga's where the main character surpasses the previous Strongest.
concerning zoro, If Zoro has surpassed the likes of Rayleigh, Shanks, and Mihawk, than doesn't that mean he has reached the level of Whitebeard?
And Concerning The Two Yonkou in 1 crew comment.
Yonkou are Who they are because of Their entire CREW.
1 man does not make a Yonkou.
Take away shanks Crew and you got another Mihawk level Guy running around.
Yonkou are a Collective force of the entire crew.
Oh please. Whitebeard is a yonkou his crew isn't and don't compare Mihawk to Whitebeard. He beat BB and Akainu half dead easily. Imagine at his strongest point. Yonkou are the four emperors of the sea and they are the four strongest as well. Shanks is not Mihawk level even though it would be a swords fiht. Whitebeard and Shanks meeting split the skies. So your telling me in the future if Zoro and Luffy fight the skies will be split? That would just be over powered. Whitebeard can destroy the OP world; well now BB can but still. Luffy will not reach Roger; he will reach Whitebeard because he is going to have to beat Blackbeard which is basically Whitebeard's powers. Zoro will reach Mihawk level because he will have to beat Mihawk.
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I guess Blackbeard's second fruit doesn't make him stronger than Whitebeard for whatever reason.
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@Uncle:
I guess Blackbeard's second fruit doesn't make him stronger than Whitebeard for whatever reason.
Well was Whitebeard affected at all by the second fruit fighting Blackbeard? Also the second fruit has only an effect on DF users. So if someone like Shanks or SR fought him the second fruit wouldn't make a difference other then him being in more pain. It might negate Luffy's Gum-gum fruit but with his Haki he wouldn't really have too much of a need for it fighting BB.
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Well was Whitebeard affected at all by the second fruit fighting Blackbeard? Also the second fruit has only an effect on DF users. So if someone like Shanks or SR fought him the second fruit wouldn't make a difference other then him being in more pain. It might negate Luffy's Gum-gum fruit but with his Haki he wouldn't really have too much of a need for it fighting BB.
Erm… What?
Actually, the whole post... what?
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Erm… What?
Actually, the whole post... what?
My point is his fruit is not going to make a big difference. He was tooken down by Whitebeard in a matter of moments easily.. So his fruit wont make a big difference.
The yami-yami no mi makes no difference toward non DF users. Meaning that it won't make him too much stronger then Whitebeard. That means when Luffy has to beat Blackbeard he has to technically beat Whitebeard but the difference is that BB is smaller, weaker (toward raw strength), takes twice the pain, but can negate Luffy's Gumo-gumo fruit. Thats my point. -
Well was Whitebeard affected at all by the second fruit fighting Blackbeard? Also the second fruit has only an effect on DF users. So if someone like Shanks or SR fought him the second fruit wouldn't make a difference other then him being in more pain. It might negate Luffy's Gum-gum fruit but with his Haki he wouldn't really have too much of a need for it fighting BB.
I'm saying, Blackbeard has two fruits, one of which is Whitebeard's fruit. So my point is that Blackbeard WILL be more powerful than Whitebeard by the end of the series. And you must be trippin if you think the yomi yomi fruit's ONLY effective against other DF users. He destroyed an entire town with it and then held off Ace's strongest attack which, as noted by everyone else, could have destroyed the entire island.
Zoro is always going to be close to or equal to Luffy. This is the dynamic that has held true since the beginning of the series to this very day. He isn't going to stop at Mihawk level because if that was the case then he wouldn't be able to beat Mihawk. In order to beat someone, you have to surpass them. And this is precisely what Zoro is going to do.
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Don't see why people presume that Luffy absolutely must surpass Roger / Whitebeard. Unlike Zoro Luffy's goal is not to be better than anyone, but to do the same thing Roger did. Be the PK because it represents being the man with the most freedom (and being the strongest is a natural extension since if he can't be with the people he wants to keep close, protect them, it impairs on his dream). I see Luffy = Roger / WB and Zoro > Mihawk which can easily place Zoro as near equal with Luffy.
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@Uncle:
Zoro is always going to be close to or equal to Luffy.
That's all i want.
@Coruscation:Don't see why people presume that Luffy absolutely must surpass Roger / Whitebeard. Unlike Zoro Luffy's goal is not to be better than anyone, but to do the same thing Roger did. Be the PK because it represents being the man with the most freedom (and being the strongest is a natural extension since if he can't be with the people he wants to keep close, protect them, it impairs on his dream). I see Luffy = Roger / WB and Zoro > Mihawk which can easily place Zoro as near equal with Luffy.
Probably because he is going to have to fight Blackbeard in the future obviously?
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Don't see why people presume that Luffy absolutely must surpass Roger / Whitebeard. Unlike Zoro Luffy's goal is not to be better than anyone, but to do the same thing Roger did. Be the PK because it represents being the man with the most freedom (and being the strongest is a natural extension since if he can't be with the people he wants to keep close, protect them, it impairs on his dream). I see Luffy = Roger / WB and Zoro > Mihawk which can easily place Zoro as near equal with Luffy.
It's nothing about absolutes, it's just simple logic. This isn't some random fandom dream, there's evidence and foreshadowing that suggests that Luffy is going to surpass Roger. Not just in power but in fame, actions, what have you. He's going to surpass Roger in every aspect.
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Well I don't see it. It makes just as much sense for him to reach the same level, it isn't a Zoro and Mihawk situation where Luffy's dream is to surpass. It's just to accomplish the same thing. We still haven't actually seen that level since WB in the war was considerably lesser than his prime self, it will be appropriate that Luffy is the one that shows it to us. No need to go higher in my eyes.
Fighting BB doesn't mean he will either. BB might simply never become as strong as Whitebeard. It's too early to make absolute statements at this point in story.
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Well I don't see it. It makes just as much sense for him to reach the same level, it isn't a Zoro and Mihawk situation where Luffy's dream is to surpass. It's just to accomplish the same thing. We still haven't actually seen that level since WB in the war was considerably lesser than his prime self, it will be appropriate that Luffy is the one that shows it to us. No need to go higher in my eyes.
You're missing the point. It's not about necessity or Luffy's desires. >_>
It's implied that Luffy will surpass Roger because he's ultimately going to be the one that takes down the World Government. And in terms of pure power alone, Blackbeard is playing the metaphysical role that will show that Luffy has surpassed Roger. This man holds in his hands Whitebeard's power to destroy the world, the same person that, in his prime, was equal to Roger. But in addition to that power, Blackbeard also has the yomi yomi fruit. To suggest that for some reason Blackbeard won't be more powerful and that Luffy won't beat Blackbeard is… well it's silly.
I mean, you're free to think what you want, I'm fine with respecting that. But to me, these various signs suggest that Luffy is going to surpass Roger. After all, if he didn't then why are we even watching him? Why not just watch "The Adventures of Roger" instead if it's an equally enjoyable read?
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I'm not even acknowledging to Draculemihawk anymore, because he's delusional beyond saving. Proven by your statement that Mihawk is above Shanks "just because a Yonkou's crew isn't as strong as Mihawk."
Guess what? Strawhats together as one > Moria and Crocodile, slowly but surely > everyone else as well. Mihawk alone? < Strawhats, post time-skip I would wager.
If Mihawk is weaker than the Strawhats, he's weaker than Luffy, because there are no rules in war, Mihawk chose to be a loner so he dies if he faces off against Luffy (who has the Strawhats).
Just like he is weaker than Shanks.Don't see why people presume that Luffy absolutely must surpass Roger / Whitebeard. Unlike Zoro Luffy's goal is not to be better than anyone, but to do the same thing Roger did. Be the PK because it represents being the man with the most freedom (and being the strongest is a natural extension since if he can't be with the people he wants to keep close, protect them, it impairs on his dream). I see Luffy = Roger / WB and Zoro > Mihawk which can easily place Zoro as near equal with Luffy.
Really? Are we reading the same manga? Did you miss this chapter entirely?
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-590/page011.htmlI'M WEAK I CAN'T PROTECT SHIT, PIRATE KING? I'M A JOKE!
His goal/resolve/endgame is to be better than God, stop fucking being a fanboy damnit.
Zoro will always be weaker than Luffy, Zoro will never defeat Blackbeard or Shanks. He can always stay close to Luffy's level, but never surpass him.If Luffy is 1.0, Zoro will always be .99999 AT BEST, and I doubt by the end of the manga, he'll even be that close to Luffy, who will clearly have surpassed Roger in every way.
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^^ You could see it like that. I'm not sure though. Blackbeard is somewhat of a cheater - a planner and an opportunist, true, which aren't necessarily bad - and WB's power was honed for decades and grounded in his impossibly strong will. The man kept fighting until the moment he died, which he did on his feet. I'm not sure I see Teach having the Haoshoku Haki. To me it could rather be made a point out of Blackbeard for all his stacking Devil Fruits still not becoming as strong as the unparalleled - until Luffy, that is - Whitebeard (and thus Roger). But I can see where you're coming from as well I just don't really see the super strong signs for it.
To tell you the truth I've not once thought about Luffy surpassing Roger in power as a major appeal of the series. It's not a big deal at all to me. Whitebeard and Roger were these two individuals who represented a kind of peak strength that was simply unparalleled, they stood above everyone, and Oda is yet keeping this level hidden to us since Newgate was hampered in the war. I think it's just as plausible for Luffy to reach this level at the end rather than surpass it.
stop fucking being a fanboy damnit
It's being a fanboy to think that it's completely possible for Zoro to stay very close to Luffy at endgame? News to me. How did that chapter contradict any part of my post? It's exactly what I said. Being the strongest, protecting everyone, basically goes with the title. Being the man with the most freedom includes the freedom to kept those he loves close and not lose them. And I didn't say that Zoro would surpass Luffy either, did you even read what you responded to or did you just lash out at someone who dared disagreeing with your flawless opinion?
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My opinion isn't flawless in Zoro never surpassing Luffy, but being below him (perhaps he will be his equal (individually not as a force) if Oda choses to do so).
However it holds far less flaws than the theories that Mihawk alone (Shichibukai) is above Shanks (Yonkou + Crew). Or that Zoro could possibly ever hope to be as powerful as Luffy, while lacking his ability to form an army everywhere he goes.
Numbers will always overtake a single opponent, One Piece's Guts (Berserk, who can take on endless enemies) can most closely be associated with Whitebeard, and even he could not take on endless enemies, how could Zoro ever hope to surpass Luffy who will ALWAYS have millions of followers.
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Welll… yeah. That's pretty much all true. I can't imagine anyone seriously thinking that Mihawk > Shanks and his crew altogether. The thing is when most people talk about being "stronger" or "surpassing" they usually just mean individually, as in the individual's fighting power irrespective of followers or charisma or what have you. You can argue the merits of that definition but it's probably where some misunderstandings span from.
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We know that he is apparently using ES and will still be weaker than Zoro. Doesn't sound good for G2. How can people say that? They think Sanji will be because he focuses on his legs and they will be as strong as Luffy is in G2, hence he can move just as fast or faster. Not that I agree but it's a common viewpoint nowadays. Which I guess should say something about how people perceive G2's power now.
All assumptions. We know nothing about Hyouzo. Him blocking that Jet Pistol could be like Blueno evading a gatling and everything else Luffy threw at him in the Galley-la building. Something he may not be able to do again now that Luffy knows he is not a pushover. Or Hyozou could end up getting drunk and being a danger to Hodi's crew as well as the Princes because he is so strong and out of control. In which case he is a strong guy but not as strong as Zoro. Have no problems with the idea Zoro can block a pistol.
Where is that viewpoint coming from? Coby's legs are weaker than Luffy's but he doesn't need a stimulant to use Soru. So much wrong with that idea. We've yet to see Luffy go G2 like pre skip and that is significant. No proof Sanji was faster than base Luffy pre-skip despite the stronger legs. We simply gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was slightly ahead. How does slightly ahead=surpassing Luffy even in G2.
Well then.
Would that really matter? He didn't aim to do damage (and didn't from what I recall), only redirect it upwards, and only physical force would do that.
What? Why are damaging and pushing it upwards mutually exclusive? Pretty sure he knew it would take every bit of his strength to try and go toe to toe with Oars. If he underestimated Oars strength and it did destroy his fist then the plan went better than expected.
What is you're point here? DJ burns it targets. Burns would make a muscle unable to contract and metal more malleable. We still on this idea that DJ doesn't lower an enemies DT? What does it do then? Only apply burn damage if the attack goes through first? He used it on Oars because if he didn't it would look like he wasn't trying to give it us all.
Drake is (a lot) physically stronger than post TS Sanji? Not even using his Zoan? Good luck making me believe that. No it seems incredibly clear to me that Sanji barely even moving the PX was completely arbitrary and not at all because he didn't use enough force
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Please don't try to argue I'm saying that moving the Pacifista means he has more power. He clearly did little damage to it while Sanji broke its neck. Its not the same situation with Luffy because not only did Luffy slam it into the ground but clearly dealt enough damage for it to explode. Damage is more important than how much a target is moved by an attack. Drake did 1, Sanji did 2, Luffy did both.
I just don't know about that. They're gone the next page, you'd think he'd bother to keep them if they were so significant. He did keep the bruises on Jimbei's face even like an hour (!!!) later as we see in this chapter so why not those on his hands?
You're the only making it out to be important. It was never a significant point of mine. I was simply stating it did something to Jinbe so its not as minor an attack as you were stating. Oda makes mistake, like with Akainu's disappearing and reappearing injuries, but I'm sure he tries to remember to redraw big noticeable injuries like face shots. Something from a minor exchange is low priority.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2642-14/one-piece/chapter-535.html Don't know what those are if not bruises. They keep being present through the rest of the chapter and you can see one up close at point and it sure looks like a bruise.
And what does this prove? Maybe its blood. Must be some reason Oda drew it repeatedly. How does this mean other bruises from confirmed hits are not worth talking about?
No, post TS kicks. Without DJ, just his physical strength. I was saying that if the relative gap between G2 and base Luffy is the same as before then Sanji would be utterly and completely ineffective, do nothing at all. Preskip you had Luffy's fully charged Rifle not even putting a scratch on Lucci's Tekkai guard, in G2 he breaks it easily with every hit and Sanji's best kick combos should be roughly even with something like a Rifle in base, pre TS. If that gap remains then Luffy's advantage should by all rights be massive and Sanji kicking Jimbei shouldn't even count for a fly landing on him, but I just can't imagine that with all the "these legs strengthened in hell for two years!!" stuff.
Why is that wrong? His kicks hurt but did no damage to Jyabura. Now he is stronger but the opponent is Jinbei. Whats wrong with a guy blocking a jet attack taking similar or less damage from Sanji's kicks?
That was a special Tekkai where Lucci's pumped up his chest. Likely same principle as Zoro pumping his arms(100 instead of 1/3 of muscle mass mammals normally use). He never used that to block a G2 attack.
Its Jinbei….. Don't see why that is hard to imagine even without remembering the Jyabura fight. Moriah isn't as physically strong as Jinbei but he got up from a far worse beating than Sanji can put out without DJ. He trained in hell and now his legs can apparently generate more heat. He does a generic DJ without spinning which to me seems like he just vibrates his leg at incredible speed, similar to the flash. This shows that they've been through hellish training.
I'll agree with that conclusion unless it turns out Decken is stronger than we think.
Cool.
I was talking about a hypothetical G2, no Haki situation in response to yours. I think without Haki but with G2 it would still get slammed to the ground but wouldn't be one shotted.
Well DJ is a higher tier move than a pistol. A DJ doing more damage doesn't mean Sanji is physically stronger than Luffy. Bazooka, Bullets, and Spirals are different stories. Again DJ lets more force get through. Luffy's style is simply about applying more brute force to break through an enemies defenses. Haki or using a different move is how he'd do that.
Well they still aren't physically stronger than post TS Sanji so in the end it can still only be arbitrary on Oda's part.
Its not. They didn't crack the armor but they did overcome the Pacifista's physical ability to keep its footing. M.Trio, Franky, Chopper's arm point, couldn't do that. Sanji applied enough force to break its neck. Luffy did both. You can break something and not move it and you can move something without breaking it.
No, it was certainly drawn for effect. I don't disagree with that. It's the Sanji part that I see as arbitrary, not the Luffy part. I can see from looking at its face in the clear panels given to us that Luffy's attack did about the same physical damage as Sanji's, that matters more than whether it was slammed to the ground or not.
Oda knows most people are not going to see it that way. Collateral damage is one of the best ways to covey the power behind an attack in this type of medium, especially in a gore less more grounded series like OP. He drew such a dramatic defeat to illustrate just how far Luffy had come. Sanji had a similar scene but it was visually less impressive. Luffy looked better because that is the impression we were supposed to receive.
How do we know? The "theme" of that scene seemed to be that they all one-shotted it easily. Breaking its neck sounds just as grievous a wound as pushing its face in to me. I'd like to believe that Luffy did a lot more damage, by all rights he should have, but it doesn't look like it in the least.
Its a cyborg though. We have no idea if that is enough to actually kill it. How much damage it did is subjective. Zoro and Luffy unarguably destroyed them. With a different author I would just take it that they all one-shot it but with Oda I think he includes subtle details to understand where most fighters stand.
In the least? That is a bit much. To most people it looks clear who did more damage. Most people are not tossing out bits of information and nitpicking(not trying to be rude just can't think of a better word) and analyzing the scene before coming to a conclusion of what it was supposed to show.
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Like Sengoku said, One cannot overcome the gap of generations. It's the duty of the current generation to surpass the last, and since Luffy is going to be the next generation Pirate King, he needs to surpass Roger.
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Well DJ is a higher tier move than a pistol. A DJ doing more damage doesn't mean Sanji is physically stronger than Luffy. Bazooka, Bullets, and Spirals are different stories. Again DJ lets more force get through. Luffy style is simply about applying more brute force to break through an enemies defenses. Haki or using a different move is how he'd do that.
No it isn't A Gear 2 Pistol is > Than a no name DJ attack
Diable Jambe itself is not attack. it is an enhanced mode like Gear 2 and the strenght comes from the moves later on.
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That is like saying Jyabura went down to a no name attack. It was DJ. Names came later and they relate more to combos than entirely different moves.
DJ>Pistol. That is obvious since the much weaker Blueno took multiple pistols but Jyabura could only take 2 DJ.
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That is like saying Jyabura went down to a no name attack. It was DJ. Names came later and they relate more to combos than entirely different moves.
DJ>Pistol. That is obvious since the much weaker Blueno took multiple pistols but Jyabura could only take 2 DJ.
Thought Blueno's tekkai was the strongest of all CP9…
and you're only comparing pure strength... what about all the other attributes of each attacks? ie. pistols' reach and shock capability (well.. not shocking anymore... everyone knows Luffy can stretch..) and DJ's burning -
Pretty sure Lucci's was stronger. But that could be the exception.
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Bluenos was never stated to have the strongest tekkai. Tekkai is hardening their muscle mass so logically the strong you are the stronger the tekkai. Only thing that could put Blueno on the top guys level is Tekkai Go but that is impossible to rate.
What does any of that other stuff have to do with our discussion? Coru said he thought a plain pistol wouldn't have broke a Pacifista's face. I'm saying I agree but that doesn't mean Luffy is physically weaker than Sanji since pistols is such a low tier move to begin with. Its basically a jab while a Bullet is a cross in Rubberman terms. Sanji was a kick with his whole lower body behind it.
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That is like saying Jyabura went down to a no name attack. It was DJ. Names came later and they relate more to combos than entirely different moves.
DJ>Pistol. That is obvious since the much weaker Blueno took multiple pistols but Jyabura could only take 2 DJ.
Blueno went down against a NAMED DJ attack to his freaking neck while falling down several meters.
The first no name Sanji kick did nothing more than Luffy's pistol to Blueno.
By that logic a few kicks of Sanji would do much mroe damage than Gear 2 gatling gun against Lucchi which disrespects Gear 2 even more.
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Bluenos was never stated to have the strongest tekkai. Tekkai is hardening their muscle mass so logically the strong you are the stronger the tekkai. Only thing that could put Blueno on the top guys level is Tekkai Go but that is impossible to rate.
What does any of that other stuff have to do with our discussion? Coru said he though a plain pistol wouldn't have broke a Pacifista's face. I'm saying I agree but that doesn't mean Luffy is physically weaker than Sanji since pistols is such a low tier move to begin with. Its basically a jab while a Bullet is a cross in Rubberman terms. Sanji is a kick with his lower body behind it.
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Blueno#Rokushiki one of the strongest.. i'm guessing that Lucci is stronger still.
Just because pistol is the first move to be used doesnt mean that its strength won't have changed since then.. if luffy is stronger as a whole, surely his attacks will grow equally stronger.
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Jabura went down to a "Flambage Shoot" Diable Jambe. Lucchi has shown us "Tekkai Gou" so Blueno's is not the strongest.
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Blueno went down against a NAMED DJ attack to his freaking neck while falling down several meters.
The first no name Sanji kick did nothing more than Luffy's pistol to Blueno.
By that logic a few kicks of Sanji would do much mroe damage than Gear 2 gatling gun against Lucchi which disrespects Gear 2 even more.
Did you only start this to argue over technicalities? Sorry the first attack was no name, the finisher was named.
Which supports my point since Jyabura is more powerful than Blueno to begin with. That means Blueno would have been wrecked far worse by Sanji's DJ than the Jet Pistol. Lets remember Blueno took multiple jet pistols and a missile directly to the back and was still able to keep his footing after the final blow.
! Which if Coru is reading supports what I was saying about damaging a target without moving it. In this case without sending Blueno flying. Sanji's kick on the train also hurt but didn't move him. Most of those strikes were without Tekkai. One nameless DJ kick fucked Jyabura up.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2522-15/one-piece/chapter-415.html
That did a hell of a lot more damage to the more powerful Jyabura than a Jet Pistol did to Blueno. Blueno would have never gotten up from that same kick.How does my logic imply that? Jet Gatling is easily hundreds of pistols. We can't possibly know how many pistols=1 kick from Sanji. Except its not dozens or hundreds of times more powerful. That's the level his kicks would have to be in order to match a Jet Gatling.
http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Blueno#Rokushiki one of the strongest.. i'm guessing that Lucci is stronger still.
Just because pistol is the first move to be used doesnt mean that its strength won't have changed since then.. if luffy is stronger as a whole, surely his attacks will grow equally stronger.
That is wikipedia. That is just somebody coming to a baseless conclusion because of how much damage he took on screen. We have no idea how well Jyabura or Kaku could stand up to a similar assault from Luffy. I really hate how badly written OP wiki is. That bit on Tekkai is filled with loads of conjecture and information that has nothing to do with the subject.
I have no idea what the rest of your post is talking about.
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Franky and Robin are most due for a power-up soon. Everyone else has had one recently-ish.
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Franky and Robin are most due for a power-up soon. Everyone else has had one recently-ish.
they too, Robin can create clones, and franky has a new body full of powerful weapons.
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Sanji- Diable Jambe his strongest attack was able to defeat one of the CP9 with it doubt it would have done anything to Lucci. I don't think this technique can take him much futher what can he do to be elevated to the next level.
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Sanji- Diable Jambe his strongest attack was able to defeat one of the CP9 with it doubt it would have done anything to Lucci. I don't think this technique can take him much futher what can he do to be elevated to the next level.
What is this I don't even…
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Sanji- Diable Jambe his strongest attack was able to defeat one of the CP9 with it doubt it would have done anything to Lucci. I don't think this technique can take him much futher what can he do to be elevated to the next level.
I doubt it, Luffy at Gear 1, Zoro and Sanji seems to be equaled and when Zoro sees Luffy fightning against Lucci he clearly says that Lucci is a step above of him.
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Okay, I'm going to try a different angle here to convey the issue better to Ryuks. Maybe the Pacifista thing can be explained and I suppose I'll drop that point. But let's instead take it from the PoV of a hypothetical Luffy vs. Sanji fight at full power. If Luffy isn't physically weaker than Sanji, how is Sanji going to be able to give Luffy a decently tough fight considering all of Luffy's "boosts" above his base state? Sanji has DJ, fine, which can definitely hurt Luffy a lot if it connects. But Luffy has both G2, a speed boost, and CoO, basically a reaction boost, and we're supposed to believe that Luffy could somewhat evade and hold off Sanji purely in base? In that case how is Sanji going to have the slightest chance of landing a hit on Luffy using all his power? And how is Sanji going to defend himself even remotely well? If Luffy can keep up in base and DJ doesn't boost physical speed or reflexes as G2 and CoO do, how isn't Luffy using both full body (presumably better than partial) G2 and CoO going to be totally overwhelming for Sanji? I can't see how he would give him a high difficulty, really tough fight as people generally think under these circumstances. The only options I can see are 1) Sanji has Haki too, 2) Luffy has become super physically weak compared to Sanji or 3) Sanji just isn't as close to Luffy as people think and when Luffy pulls out all the stops it's basically GG.
How would you resolve this situation? I'm asking not so much to incite further argument but cause despite disagreeing earlier you seem to be able to figure these things out better than I can do on my own.
And for the record, I see this problem with Zoro as well if he has no Haki, but Sanji is easier to use for an example since people can't just say "well Zoro has swords" or some such.
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Why not mention Zoro once again… It would be the same problem^^
Now I ask you the other way around... Would it be good if Luffy would totally outclass Zoro and Sanji (even if I think they have haki) with Gear2 + haki and stuff? No it wouldn't... I know your problem and Gear 2 wasn't the smartest move from Oda.
Let us just say... We know that Luffy will use Gear 2 in the upcoming fights... That would mean that his opponents are all far stronger physically than Zoro and Sanji either. Even Hyozou blocked a gear 2 attack in an instant and does some sort of counter attack... So how can Zoro figth Hyozou if he is able to react to gear 2? That isn't right as well.
Same for Decken and even some others.
No matter how you look at it... Both sides sounds wrong... I can see your problem but you have to see the other way as well.
Trust in Oda and look at it more easy.
For example... All of us know that physically SO FAR Jozu showed much more impressive feats than Marco (Who is a physical fighter as well)... Would Jozu win? Probably not?
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I guess you posted before my edit.
And yes, this is all the fault of Oda creating Gear Second in the first place, but now it's there and will never go away and I just want to see if anyone can figure out a satisfying solution to it all. Maybe Oda will explain it better, but he may also not and we're just expected to buy it, and well…
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Just wait… if not just accept it... If you like it or not.
You can also look at it your way... But rally let it go for now and enjoy the story :happy:
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But let's instead take it from the PoV of a hypothetical Luffy vs. Sanji fight at full power. If Luffy isn't physically weaker than Sanji, how is Sanji going to be able to give Luffy a decently tough fight considering all of Luffy's "boosts" above his base state? Sanji has DJ, fine, which can definitely hurt Luffy a lot if it connects. But Luffy has both G2, a speed boost, and CoO, basically a reaction boost, and we're supposed to believe that Luffy could somewhat evade and hold off Sanji purely in base?
I'd like to say a few things. In a hypothetical fight, I would imagine that Sanji could give Luffy a hard time, but eventually Luffy would win, which should make common sense in this manga, being he's (Sanji) the third strongest in the crew. Now, from this hypothetical situation, I see you're assuming already too much. You're assuming that Sanji doesn't know haki, and that Sanji doesn't have a greater understanding of DJ. We don't even know if Sanji can use DJ in different ways either, or if he can control the scale of destruction when the attack meets its target. But he should in reality. Remember, Sanji used DJ on the pacifista pre timeskip and it hardly did anything, and post timeskip DJ broke the pacifista's neck. It can't be that straightforward, for Sanji to just have bulked up lots of physical strength alone over the timeskip and that is why DJ is stronger. I refuse to believe that Sanji didn't examine and master his DJ attacks to greater levels. What we do know, which is very little, is that Sanji "polished" his feet during his time in "hell". This means he focused on his strengths alone and whatever else was taught to him by Iwa, which could include a number of things, but at this point it's most likely haki. It's also not impossible to believe that during the timeskip, Sanji had eaten plenty of build up body food from those attack recipes he had to steal. Sanji could have eaten from one unique recipe that worked right for him, who knows. I'm saying this because there were way too many recipes for them not to be unique themselves. What I'm trying to get at here is that there are so many factors that have led up to Sanji's strength level that you're doing it a lot of injustice when comparing it to Luffy's abilities in this hypothetical situation when we know so little.
Maybe I should simplify a few things according to my understanding. Sanji has focused mostly on his feet techniques, right? This in all likelihood means that Sanji is close to Luffy's speed in "base", but not faster. But even if Sanji is faster, it doesn't have to correlate to Sanji being physically stronger than Luffy. (Kizaru is a light man, which should automatically make him one of the faster people in the series, but that doesn't mean he cannot be defeated by someone physically slower than he is.) When Sanji uses more advanced feet techniques, he should be faster and then that should still compete rather well with Gear 2nd, but in the end it should not surpass Gear 2nd speed. And again, even if Sanji is faster with him pushing past all of his limits compared to Luffy doing the same, it isn't bad. Luffy has Zoro who's an expert in swordsmanship and he has Sanji who is an expert with leg work. Obviously Sanji has a skill-set that is greater than Luffy's in terms of "leg work". Luffy is greater in a different way in his overall method of fighting and haki skills. Sanji being faster in no way means that he is stronger than Luffy, but it means that Sanji has specialized more in that specific area of the body and knows how to be faster through various techniques combined with strength that should be foreign to anyone else. Notice here that I'm guessing at this point according to two different hypothetical situations. As for CoO, Luffy has an advantage, but who knows how well he has tuned himself in this area to be able to avoid Sanji's ultimate attacks. And who says that Sanji hasn't acquired knowingly or not CoO haki. In all likelihood he should at some point in the future. People even assume that Sanji has CoA haki as well. We just don't know yet.
The only options I can see are 1) Sanji has Haki too,
He should and will. This is my prediction of course, as I do believe Sanji will fight an Admiral in the far future.
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DJ burns hotter obviously. I said it can hurt Luffy. That won't help if he can't hit him.
If Sanji is so fast and strong he can outspeed and fight on par with full body G2 Luffy's physical level, then Luffy would obviously have to be a lot physically weaker than Sanji (I don't know why you mention Kizaru as an example. He gets his speed from moving as light, a Devil Fruit). It isn't just about raw movement speed or leg work, G2 Luffy is taken to a higher physical level entirely. This was one of my options. Still doesn't remove Luffy's Color of Observation advantage, previously portrayed as a major one, where you basically just brush it off. I don't buy that, Luffy's main development can't be so insignificant. IF Luffy wouldn't be outclassed by Sanji in his base physical capabilities, and Sanji doesn't have CoO, I can't see how Sanji could keep up with Luffy. If Sanji has CoO it's still somewhat of an issue.
I would prefer it if he had Haki too, but that was one of the options. I'm not assuming either way yet which is why I mentioned several possibilities but I want to hear people explain it in the event that he doesn't have both colors.
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Okay, I'm going to try a different angle here to convey the issue better to Ryuks. Maybe the Pacifista thing can be explained and I suppose I'll drop that point. But let's instead take it from the PoV of a hypothetical Luffy vs. Sanji fight at full power. If Luffy isn't physically weaker than Sanji, how is Sanji going to be able to give Luffy a decently tough fight considering all of Luffy's "boosts" above his base state? Sanji has DJ, fine, which can definitely hurt Luffy a lot if it connects. But Luffy has both G2, a speed boost, and CoO, basically a reaction boost, and we're supposed to believe that Luffy could somewhat evade and hold off Sanji purely in base? In that case how is Sanji going to have the slightest chance of landing a hit on Luffy using all his power? And how is Sanji going to defend himself even remotely well? If Luffy can keep up in base and DJ doesn't boost physical speed or reflexes as G2 and CoO do, how isn't Luffy using both full body (presumably better than partial) G2 and CoO going to be totally overwhelming for Sanji? I can't see how he would give him a high difficulty, really tough fight as people generally think under these circumstances. The only options I can see are 1) Sanji has Haki too, 2) Luffy has become super physically weak compared to Sanji or 3) Sanji just isn't as close to Luffy as people think and when Luffy pulls out all the stops it's basically GG.
How would you resolve this situation? I'm asking not so much to incite further argument but cause despite disagreeing earlier you seem to be able to figure these things out better than I can do on my own.
And for the record, I see this problem with Zoro as well if he has no Haki, but Sanji is easier to use for an example since people can't just say "well Zoro has swords" or some such.
Why is a hypothetical fight between two people who will never face off against each other relevant and need to be resolved? Option 3 and a little 1. I see no real reason Luffy shouldn't be able to dominate Sanji in a fight. Zoro may have severely lessened the gap between him and the Captain but I see nothing wrong with Sanji not doing so. Luffy has a DF, had focused Haki training on an island with beasts stronger than the Demon Gaurds, Sphinx, and supposedly himself(so likely stronger than most of those 99 Okamas), literally went through hell, and fought in the War of the Best. If Sanji can match 80+% of what Luffy could do after all that there is the problem. How they fare against each other is only a concern for fans not Oda. Though its a bit of a no brainer Sanji and Zoro will learn Haki.
Also if going full body acts as a new power-up it will be against a boss Sanji would be entirely incapable of dealing with. I don't see the logic at all that Luffy shouldn't be far above Sanji if he used most of the tools at his disposal. G2 created a large gap at EL so why it the continued gap a problem now?
@KishidoNow I ask you the other way around… Would it be good if Luffy would totally outclass Zoro and Sanji (even if I think they have haki) with Gear2 + haki and stuff? No it wouldn't... I know your problem and Gear 2 wasn't the smartest move from Oda.
Let us just say… We know that Luffy will use Gear 2 in the upcoming fights... That would mean that his opponents are all far stronger physically than Zoro and Sanji either. Even Hyozou blocked a gear 2 attack in an instant and does some sort of counter attack… So how can Zoro figth Hyozou if he is able to react to gear 2? That isn't right as well.
Why exactly? He had to give us some reason why the younger member is the strongest besides "he's better just because" or "hidden power", excuse most authors give us. I don't get this asking for a solution stuff? Luffy will be noticeably stronger than Sanji for now on. Why is this a problem?
Luffy has only used partial Gear 2 so far. When he does fully it will be against someone physically stronger than Sanji.
How about we not underestimate either Sanji or Zoro's reflexes. Sanji may not be able to handle a full on assault from G2 Luffy but Hyouzo definitely couldn't either as he took a pill for Princes.
If Sanji is so fast and strong he can outspeed and fight on par with full body G2 Luffy's physical level, then Luffy would obviously have to be a lot physically weaker than Sanji (I don't know why you mention Kizaru as an example. He gets his speed from moving as light, a Devil Fruit). It isn't just about raw movement speed or leg work, G2 Luffy is taken to a higher physical level entirely. This was one of my options. Still doesn't remove Luffy's Color of Observation advantage, previously portrayed as a major one, where you basically just brush it off. I don't buy that, Luffy's main development can't be so insignificant. IF Luffy wouldn't be outclassed by Sanji in his base physical capabilities, and Sanji doesn't have CoO, I can't see how Sanji could keep up with Luffy. If Sanji has CoO it's still somewhat of an issue.
I would prefer it if he had Haki too, but that was one of the options. I'm not assuming either way yet which is why I mentioned several possibilities but I want to hear people explain it in the event that he doesn't have both colors.
Not really. Luffy has been caught of gaurd and tagged multiple times already(Robin, Decken's axe, being tied up, Jinbe, not recognizing Zoro&Sanji, not scanning for SH at SA or FI). He has been able to use it for attacks he knows are incoming but not much else. Doesn't seem at a level yet where he can accurately predict all or most of an enemies attacks or actions over a long fight. In its current form I think its main use will to prevent Luffy from getting owned by the unxpected like his initial confrontation with Blueno, Croc, and Mag but only in situations where he is already tense and focused(like in the Galley-la building or in front of an opponent). He wasn't expecting Jinbe to hit him and even if he did I doubt CoO let him see more than Jinbe throwing a punch. Wouldn't tell him that punch was going to send a ripple through the water and his body.
He can't and won't keep up with Luffy at full speed. FYI I don't think the gap is so huge Sanji will look pitiful compared to Luffy. I get the sense some of you are worried that may be the case. Right now we just have a firm grasp of Luffy's capabilities while we have only hints about Sanji. We got a pic of Sanji leg covered in flames and saw Blue Walk. Red Walk seems next turning Sanji into Captain Falcon on land possibly allowing him to dash on par or surpassing G2 speeds so I don't think we need to be woried about Sanji looking outclassed.
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But Hyozou and VDD took Gear punches without big scratches. Hyozou even somehow counter attacked it… So does that mean all of them are physically stronger than Zoro and Sanji?
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Though its a bit of a no brainer Sanji and Zoro will learn Haki.
Also if going full body acts as a new power-up it will be against a boss Sanji would be entirely incapable of dealing with. I don't see the logic at all that Luffy shouldn't be far above Sanji if he used most of the tools at his disposal. G2 created a large gap at EL so why it the continued gap a problem now?
I agree on that, but I'm not as sure that they (both of them) have it (both colors) currently.
I assume it will based on the latest chapter, where Luffy went full G2 to kick Hody away and it looked really impressive. And it's not really a problem for me personally that the gap remains. But it's a general mentality among fans that the gaps between the M3 are super small and maybe partly because of the Zoro is really close to Luffy, Sanji is really close to Zoro reasoning. I find it hard to really refute it as it feels a bit wrong to say that there is a large gap between Zoro & Sanji given how Oda portrays them. It's often played for comic relief, but even so. It doesn't feel wrong, for me, anyway, to say there's a larger gap between Luffy & Sanji and definitely not post EL but then we're back at Luffy vs. Zoro.
Not really. Luffy has been caught of gaurd and tagged multiple times already…
True enough, but I assumed that's because he isn't yet at the point where he uses it near-unconsciously and for everything. More that he has to focus and use it actively and we won't see him do so until a real longer fight comes around (as I assume Oda would tell us more or less explicitly when he uses it like he did CoA that first time). We tend to assume that he hasn't been using CoA for most of his attacks so far, even against Jimbei, so it seems logical that he wouldn't use CoO either. Haki is the "trump card" currently that comes out on a big boss or when Oda wants him to look especially impressive.
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Sanji and Zoro are equal. To me Sanji seems alot better since the timeskip but we know Zoro hasn't shown everything. Luffy is just way stronger than the two. 50 fights a day I wouldn't give any of them to Sanji or Zoro. Talking about progression look at the chins Sanji and Zoro are sporting in todays chapter. They have Luffy beat in that department.
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I agree on that, but I'm not as sure that they (both of them) have it (both colors) currently.
I assume it will based on the latest chapter, where Luffy went full G2 to kick Hody away and it looked really impressive. And it's not really a problem for me personally that the gap remains. But it's a general mentality among fans that the gaps between the M3 are super small and maybe partly because of the Zoro is really close to Luffy, Sanji is really close to Zoro reasoning. I find it hard to really refute it as it feels a bit wrong to say that there is a large gap between Zoro & Sanji given how Oda portrays them. It's often played for comic relief, but even so. It doesn't feel wrong, for me, anyway, to say there's a larger gap between Luffy & Sanji and definitely not post EL but then we're back at Luffy vs. Zoro.
Zoro was never dealing with Rob Lucci or full G2 either. Three of them are near equal in base but Asura pushes Zoro beyond Sanji and G2 pushes Luffy beyond Zoro. Being near equal in base is likely still true now. Now I don't feel Zoro is so beneath Luffy anymore but Sanji should definitely be when Luffy has so many skills.
True enough, but I assumed that's because he isn't yet at the point where he uses it near-unconsciously and for everything. More that he has to focus and use it actively and we won't see him do so until a real longer fight comes around (as I assume Oda would tell us more or less explicitly when he uses it like he did CoA that first time). We tend to assume that he hasn't been using CoA for most of his attacks so far, even against Jimbei, so it seems logical that he wouldn't use CoO either. Haki is the "trump card" currently that comes out on a big boss or when Oda wants him to look especially impressive.
Pretty much.
But Hyozou and VDD took Gear punches without big scratches. Hyozou even somehow counter attacked it… So does that mean all of them are physically stronger than Zoro and Sanji?
Hyozou blocked one attack and VDD was owned by a single jet attack. I'm pretty sure Zoro and Sanji can dodge, evade, and even tank some jet attacks far better than either of them. Are you talking about Pre-ts Zoro&Sanji? In that case yes apparently Hyozou for whatever reason is a little stronger than Zoro before(as illogical as that sounds unless he spends time in the NW) the TS. VDD's durability feat just seems like a Willpower/Retard strength feat. He got up because he wanted the Princess and seemed fine later because his injuries had no implications to the plot. The next time Luffy or someone hits him he won't take it as welll….or he is just that tough.
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Zoro was never dealing with Rob Lucci or full G2 either. Three of them are near equal in base but Asura pushes Zoro beyond Sanji and G2 pushes Luffy beyond Zoro. Being near equal in base is likely still true now. Now I don't feel Zoro is so beneath Luffy anymore but Sanji should definitely be when Luffy has so many skills.
Pretty much.
Hyozou blocked one attack and VDD was owned by a single jet attack. I'm pretty sure Zoro and Sanji can dodge, evade, and even tank some jet attacks far better than either of them. Are you talking about Pre-ts Zoro&Sanji? In that case yes apparently Hyozou for whatever reason is a little stronger than Zoro before(as illogical as that sounds unless he spends time in the NW) the TS. VDD's durability feat just seems like a Willpower/Retard strength feat. He got up because he wanted the Princess and seemed fine later because his injuries had no implications to the plot. The next time Luffy or someone hits him he won't take it as welll….or he is just that tough.
I'm talking about now. And VDD was more than OK after this hit.
But the point is… Corus can't see Sanji or even Zoro being able to handle Gear 2 cuz it pushes Luffy way above in physically appartements. I just meant every person, where Luffy needs to being in gear 2 from now, is stronger than Sanji and Zoro by that logic.
That's why I have thrown in Hyozou who managed to block, like Jinbei, a gear 2 attack.... But we know Zoro will beat him while hyozou probably taking pills as well.
But I will trust in oda
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I'm talking about now. And VDD was more than OK after this hit.
But the point is… Corus can't see Sanji or even Zoro being able to handle Gear 2 cuz it pushes Luffy way above in physically appartements. I just meant every person, where Luffy needs to being in gear 2 from now, is stronger than Sanji and Zoro by that logic.
That's why I have thrown in Hyozou who managed to block, like Jinbei, a gear 2 attack…. But we know Zoro will beat him while hyozou probably taking pills as well.
But I will trust in oda
VDD was not OK after that hit. However well you think he did against a tied up Luffy. Current Sanji and Zoro would do far better against against an untied Luffy.
Its amazing how much you manage to extrapolate from our logic. That is not what he was saying. We were talking about two scenarios. One is the possibility that Luffy going full G2(which he hasn't yet) instead of only on specific limbs provides a bigger boost reserved for bosses who logically should be much stronger than Sanji. Partial G2 would eventually overwhelm Sanji and full(if its a boost) would rape. Nobody is saying Sanji can't fight against G2 at all just that it will quickly overwhelm his abilities. Hyozou and VDD taking two casual moves from Luffy means nothing. Doesn't tell us how well they would do against more attacks nor how well Sanji&Zoro would handle similar situations.