Hey, speaking of Luffy's will…would Odz even have it? Luffy is motivated by his dream to be pirate king and his loyalty to his crew. Now that Odz has accepted Moria as his master, will he still have Luffy's will? I don't know if we can expect the same determination that Luffy used to beat Croc. This zombie isn't Luffy, and it isn't even the Odz of the past.
Chapter 470 "Odz vs Strawhats" Discussion
-
-
Hey, speaking of Luffy's will…would Odz even have it? Luffy is motivated by his dream to be pirate king and his loyalty to his crew. Now that Odz has accepted Moria as his master, will he still have Luffy's will? I don't know if we can expect the same determination that Luffy used to beat Croc. This zombie isn't Luffy, and it isn't even the Odz of the past.
That's a good point. I mean, if Luffy goes "Ooops!" with Moria, then Odz will either become a rampaging conqueror or an idiot with a ridiculous amount of fate on his dream of becoming the Pirate King.
Worst case possible, Odz recovers some of his past self like Cindry did and Moria is forced to use Luffy's Shadow to restrain Odz, allowing the mugiwara to finish him fast (I bet Coup De Vent + Sanji, Zoro and Chopper's Arm-Point could do the work), and then, when Luffy recovers his Shadow, Moria's Shadow-Bending will give him a lot of problems, but I still dunno if Moria has any control over shadows that are still stuck on people or Objects….
-
Luffy´s motivation to defeat his enemies has nothing to do with his dream to become the Pirate King but with his desire to protect his friends. All the fights where he surpassed himself aswell as the opponents were like that. He didn´t beat the crap out of Arlong because he wanted to be the Pirate King but in order to help Nami. He didn´t keep coming back each time Crocodile killed him to find One Piece but to help Vivi. He didn´t gave Rucchi his all to become Pirate King but to save Robin. That´s his main motivation in a fight.
And even though Odz might not have chosen freely to be on Morias side it can pretty much be expected that his bond and responsibility towards protecting Moria are the same as Luffy´s to protect his crewmates. So yep, even without the memory of the Pirate King goal, the desire to protect people close to you remains part of the souls personality.
-
@Kaimei-Karasuhebi:
Worst case possible, Odz recovers some of his past self like Cindry did and Moria is forced to use Luffy's Shadow to restrain Odz, allowing the mugiwara to finish him fast (I bet Coup De Vent + Sanji, Zoro and Chopper's Arm-Point could do the work), and then, when Luffy recovers his Shadow, Moria's Shadow-Bending will give him a lot of problems, but I still dunno if Moria has any control over shadows that are still stuck on people or Objects….
Obviously he doeesnt have any control over other peoples shadow as Luffys shadow was quite rebellious and trying to flee untill the "contract" was made.
-
Luffy´s motivation to defeat his enemies has nothing to do with his dream to become the Pirate King but with his desire to protect his friends. All the fights where he surpassed himself aswell as the opponents were like that. He didn´t beat the crap out of Arlong because he wanted to be the Pirate King but in order to help Nami. He didn´t keep coming back each time Crocodile killed him to find One Piece but to help Vivi. He didn´t gave Rucchi his all to become Pirate King but to save Robin. That´s his main motivation in a fight.
And even though Odz might not have chosen freely to be on Morias side it can pretty much be expected that his bond and responsibility towards protecting Moria are the same as Luffy´s to protect his crewmates. So yep, even without the memory of the Pirate King goal, the desire to protect people close to you remains part of the souls personality.
First off, Luffy's friends etc was brought up already.
Really? Even when Odz is forced to be Moria's servant? Luffy has love and respect and other emotions for his crew…what does a zombie have? What would really motivate Odz to go the extra mile for Moria in the same way that Luffy does for his crew? Odz barely knows anything about Moria, he was just created a few hours ago. Odz's bond to Moria is forced.
I think you're imaginging that the SHs are fighting a Luffy who's using a giant body. Rather they're fighting a zombie who's has some Luffy traits, but you can't expect them all to be the same as Luffy's personality--it's a mix up. For one thing, like someone mentioned--what if something drives Odz to bring his old personality up? Considering that Cindry did it 2 chapters ago that doesn't seem unlikely.
-
Luffy is motivated to engage opponents out of a number of reasons, foremost to protect friends (and yea, become the best). His persistence and will to continue despite what happens to him then isn't only a reflection of the depth of his feelings for his friends, but is just an inherent part of Luffy's personality. Luffy is a guy with a big heart who is willing to go to huge lengths once his will is fixed on something. So for me, even if Odz's desire to battle the SHs wasn't chosen out of free will, that doesn't change that other aspect of Luffy's personality. I can't even imagine a Luffy who would just half-ass it. That wouldn't even be Luffy anymore, which would kind of (IMHO) defeat the purpose of it being his shadow that was stolen.
I am reminded of Zeff's comments during the Krieg fight:
Zeff: Every once in a while,
You find an idiot who can't keep from fighting to his death once he's chosen his target…Sanji: Can't stop fighting...
Zeff: You don't want someone like that for an enemy...
- Page 23 -
Zeff: Whether he wins or loses the fight,
I like guys like him...
http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/op-v08c063.txt(Edited to remove 100 "Luffy's" in the first paragraph)
-
Luffy is motivated to engage opponents out of a number of reasons, foremost to protect friends (and yea, become the best). His persistence and will to continue despite what happens to him then isn't only a reflection of the depth of his feelings for his friends, but is just an inherent part of Luffy's personality. Luffy is a guy with a big heart who is willing to go to huge lengths once his will is fixed on something. So for me, even if Odz's desire to battle the SHs wasn't chosen out of free will, that doesn't change that other aspect of Luffy's personality. I can't even imagine a Luffy who would just half-ass it. That wouldn't even be Luffy anymore, which would kind of (IMHO) defeat the purpose of it being his shadow that was stolen.
Yep, beautifully said. Thats the part about his soul/personality that can´t be erased.
-
But the difference is that CP9 are themselves and don´t have Luffy´s extreme will to keep going on no matter what. Odz however has it, in fact he and Luffy are the very same on that field so it´s not like Odz is at disadvantage here like the other guys Luffy fought. As I said before, Brook vs. Ryuma stands as example for what makes the difference if the soul is the same = the body.
This is something I'm not too crazy about with respect to the story.
Ryuma retained Yohoho, but no other personality trait?
The hell? Then what does that say about Sanji's no-kicking-women policy or Luffy's desire to be Pirate King.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense because those are both things that could be considered malleable due to the pact with Moria, but…...why the laugh then? I never understood what the difference between what gets carried over and what doesn't. It's not one of Oda's stronger story points.
-
but IIRC, sanji and Luffy's shadows both lost those traits now.
and Ryuuma has been there long before the beginning of the arc, so it's not surprising Brook's traits were already gone.
I mean Oz is Moria's servant now. I think that is pretty obvious with the whole "I am Moria's servant "Oz" and hunting the strawhats.
and sanji's shadow attacked robin I believe.
-
If the Dog Penguin lost Sanji's desire to respect women, then it's not a stretch to believe that Odz DOESN'T have Luffy's "I'll never give up!" shit.
-
If the Dog Penguin lost Sanji's desire to respect women, then it's not a stretch to believe that Odz DOESN'T have Luffy's "I'll never give up!" shit.
Yes, thank you.
and Ryuuma has been there long before the beginning of the arc, so it's not surprising Brook's traits were already gone.
Right but that's not my point. If he supposedly lost all the traits except attacks, while does he still sit cross-legged sipping tea and laugh exactly like Brook?
I'm not putting down anyone's theories here, I'm just not crazy about what gets carried over and what doesn't and for what reasons are a little grey.
-
Holy shit, this was a good chapter. Oz owned some bitches!
-
Dogpen attacked Robin because it was a direct order, im guessing that they keep traits that don't contradict orders, maybe now that dogpen is orderless it won't attack women again.
-
Dogpen attacked Robin because it was a direct order, im guessing that they keep traits that don't contradict orders, maybe now that dogpen is orderless it won't attack women again.
I don't think so. And besides, if they were orderless…wouldn't they just stand around doing nothing? Maybe play a little Yu-Gi-Oh..but that's not much different than doing nothing.
-
Dogpen attacked Robin because it was a direct order, im guessing that they keep traits that don't contradict orders, maybe now that dogpen is orderless it won't attack women again.
From the comic :
Zombies: Hey, whottaya doin', new guy?!
We zombies is s'posed ta always follow our master's orders! It's programmed inta us!!
How… How can he fight back against it?!
...an' he's tough as a General Zombie, too...!!! -
Greg:
I'm assumeing that maxterdexter means the standing orders "apprehend/catch the tresspassers" doesnt neccesarily mean he is contradicting orders when refuseing to hit nami (although it doesnt really follow the orders given either)however that dogpen was given a direct order by hogback to attack and harm robin which he couldnt disobey or work around.
now that there arent any specific orders to inflict pain on any girls, he will go to some lenghts not to attack them untill ordered once again to do so.
-
I'm assumeing that maxterdexter means the standing orders "apprehend/catch the tresspassers" doesnt neccesarily mean he is contradicting orders when refuseing to hit nami (although it doesnt really follow the orders given either)
Which would make sense….if they didn't specifically say he was disobeying an order. Remember, that's Oda speaking, not them, so he's saying he disobeyed an order.
Anyway, I do like Ivotas idea in that traits which don't interfere with orders are left over, but to what degree and where can we draw the line of what's the original shadow and what's a result of 'obeying'? It would be nice if he clarified it at some point.
-
….... Anyway, I do like Ivotas idea in that traits which don't interfere with orders are left over, but to what degree and where can we draw the line of what's the original shadow and what's a result of 'obeying'? It would be nice if he clarified it at some point.
This might become the most interesting/decisive issue in the fight Odz vs. the crew. Will Odz be able to pull out full power (if that was necessary) while beeing cut of from the real characters most important sources of motivation (protect, become pirate king)?
Or will he just crumble from inner conflict? (my thought, when he explained himself on the last page, with his eyes shadowed)
-
Ryuma retained Yohoho, but no other personality trait?
What about "can I see your panties"?
The hell? Then what does that say about Sanji's no-kicking-women policy or Luffy's desire to be Pirate King.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense because those are both things that could be considered malleable due to the pact with Moria, but…...why the laugh then? I never understood what the difference between what gets carried over and what doesn't. It's not one of Oda's stronger story points.
I see the difference between the laugh/pantie thing and the pirate king thing that the first is a personality trait and the other simply a memory thing. It might be Luffy´s deep desire to become it but is connected to memories of past events. The development of a personality also is a bit dependent on experiences but it has a little more freedom of its own in comparison to the other. At least the way how I see it.
The only problem here is normally I would find Sanji´s no-woman-kicking policy something that has more to do with personality othern then memories. Unless of course something significant happened to him in past which got him there the first place. But since that never got mentioned its highly dubious.
-
Is there one piece this week?
-
Is there one piece this week?
:wassat:
It's just Tuesday… just wait...
(at least, I'm not aware that this is a no-one-piace-fucking-week) -
Answer the man.(And me too)
-
Answer the man.(And me too)
Talkin' to me? :blink:…
Yes there should be OP chapter this week.
I didn't read anything 'bout no chap. -
No,I reacted to the guy before you,but before I wrote it you already posted that thing and it got poot underneath it,witch kinda shifted its meaning.
-
It's probably a really forced sort of explanation, but wasn't Ryuma the only zombie who actually met and talked with (albeit while fighting) his shadow-donor? So maybe that was what gave him a couple more of Brook's distinctive traits.
-
Whether or not Luffy retained that particular facet of his personality doesn't even matter at this point; Odz clearly outmatched the crew in this chapter and it would only factor in if they're actually able to get back up and effectively counterstrike. I don't personally feel Oda even has to go this route for the storyline to end satisfyingly, but if he does, it would be more interesting for me if it is retained.
And, yea, Dogpen attacked Robin. Odz also beat the crap out of the crew and that isn't something the real Luffy would ordinarily do either. I don't personally see a huge difference between the two situations other than Sanji has pretensions towards an honor code regarding women (but nevermind that :unsure:). I thought most zombies become obedient after a period of time, which explains the discrepancy between Odz and Dogpen's initial behavior and what's happening now. But for the general question of what traits are retained and which are lost, I don't think it makes much sense either.
-
Whether or not Luffy retained that particular facet of his personality doesn't even matter at this point; Odz clearly outmatched the crew in this chapter and it would only factor in if they're actually able to get back up and effectively counterstrike. I don't personally feel Oda even has to go this route for the storyline to end satisfyingly, but if he does, it would be more interesting for me if it is retained.
And, yea, Dogpen attacked Robin. Odz also beat the crap out of the crew and that isn't something the real Luffy would ordinarily do either. I don't personally see a huge difference between the two situations other than Sanji has pretensions towards an honor code regarding women (but nevermind that :unsure:). I thought most zombies become obedient after a period of time, which explains the discrepancy between Odz and Dogpen's initial behavior and what's happening now. But for the general question of what traits are retained and which are lost, I don't think it makes much sense either.
the difference is that Sanji wont harm women nomatter who they are. (or if they are trying to kill him).
Luffy wont hit his own crew. but the strawhats arent Oggys crew. he doesnt know them at all, thus he will have no major qualms about harming them. -
Wow, this chapter turned out to be a pretty epic brawl!
/just caught up again
-
Right but that's not my point. If he supposedly lost all the traits except attacks, while does he still sit cross-legged sipping tea and laugh exactly like Brook?
I'm not putting down anyone's theories here, I'm just not crazy about what gets carried over and what doesn't and for what reasons are a little grey.
Same reason Sanji and Zoro's zombies don't get along.
They keep a few traits, but basically anything that would get in the way of them being servants disappears.
-
Same reason Sanji and Zoro's zombies don't get along.
They keep a few traits, but basically anything that would get in the way of them being servants disappears.
aren't you contradicting yourself here?:wassat:
-
Not really, since Hogback was able to gain control of them rather easily.(and IIRC, they WERE still following orders, since they viewed the other as getting in their way)
Not like when Oz went off to become the king of the pirates and the penguin-dog refused to kick nami.
-
Same reason Sanji and Zoro's zombies don't get along.
That had little to do with it.
Actually I'm glad you brought that up because I was afraid that point might get lost in translation. Their fighting has NOTHING to do with the two of them not getting along.
Robin or Chopper mentioned that it 'helped' that they didn't get along in life but the main issue was the key word that Hogback used in his order.
He said to eliminate "the interference" which of course meant Chopper and Robin. But when 108 Pound Cannon almost hit him, it 'interefered' with his action and when he attacks Jigorou he says, "Don't interfere with me!" It had nothing to do with them not getting along, it was specifically a loop-hole in his order.
Anyway, even if that was your point, it actually helps make my overall question more ambiguous. Let's say their fight WAS aided by their shadow's 'memories' so to speak. Why did that get left over when other traits are lost?
Again, I wish he'd clear it up.
What about "can I see your panties"?
Okay thank you! Perfect example. Yes, he also had that, so what's the difference? What decides what gets left behind? If Zoro and Sanji were at odds and if that DID increase the ferocity of their brawl even though it certainly wasn't the igniting factor, why left that trait behind?
What quirks get left over and for what reason? It doesn't make much sense when you try to think about it.
Which of course should never be the point of a comic book with talking reindeer in the first place.
-
This post is deleted!
-
greg which traits is it you think have been lost?
any special traits you would have wanted to carry over?
-
I don't think that there's any set criteria for idiosyncrasies that get left behind.
-
greg which traits is it you think have been lost?
any special traits you would have wanted to carry over?
Well Dogpen has no compunctions about attacking women now. What does that say about other traits?
I personally don't care or want any to be left behind etc. I just want to know what determines what's left behind.
I don't think that there's any set criteria for idiosyncrasies that get left behind.
I'm also under the same assumption that Oda has chosen 'what works' and 'what would be interesting'. But since mangaka tend to think in retrospect about such details and expand upon them later, I'd like to know what the deal is.
I mean we've got Dogpen who will no longer uphold an ideal Sanji risked his life for, while Ryuma was sipping tea, yohoho-ing and trying to see some panties.
-
Going to have to agree with Greg here. When it comes to comedy, being funny is a lot more important than logically explaining everything.
-
Okay thank you! Perfect example. Yes, he also had that, so what's the difference?
Huh, since when is it about difference? You asked if there was anything else besides the "Yohoho" that remained of Brook and that was my response. The thing about differences was what I explained later on with the personality argument.
Besides, one more thing that remains is the attacks. That counts not only for Ryuma but for Dogpen, Jigoro and Odz. It´s clear that the zombies don´t start from scratch even if most of the former life is erased.
-
You asked if there was anything else besides the "Yohoho" that remained of Brook and that was my response.
?
Erm, it was a rhetorical question and not what I was interested in the least ^_^; I'm not interested in precisely what was left over. I'm interested in why certain qualities get left over as opposed to others. And that being the case, there seem to be some conflicts in what is deemed 'loyal' or otherwise.
Besides, one more thing that remains is the attacks.
Well that's obvious, it's the main reason for the bonding.
But….again.....I'm not asking what gets left over. I'm pondering via text why they remain.
-
Just like some said that is possible that Odz retained the thing of protecting his nakama (In this case Moria and the other Zombies), then it's also possible that Dogpen's concept of women is far different from Sanji's. I mean, maybe what Dogpen consider as women are monsters like Lola or more average looking zombies like Cindry. Anyways, it's not like we have already seen some proof of Odz only considering Zombies as his Nakama, and who knows, maybe he retained something different from Luffy, the thing of using/relying on his Nakama to achieve his goals (Wich In this case would be making Moria the Pirate King), so maybe Odz will rather crush around any useless Zombie (Well, he's not Luffy after all) rather than avenging their defeat at the hands of the Strawhats.
Anyways, I think that Ryuuma's YOHOHOing and "I can see your panties" was just like an empty shell of what Brooke would have done. I actually doubt that he "felt" like laughing or even seeing Nami's Panties.
-
then it's also possible that Dogpen's concept of women is far different from Sanji's.
Unfortunately there's no evidence for this.
The zombies seem to be completely new entities with certain qualities that remain from the shadow. I think we can all agree that aside from the Sailor Moon-esque miracle displayed by Cindry, the personality has nothing to do with the body. Again, the best idea thus far offered was from Ivotas that basically said, any traits that might conflict with being loyal would be erased as per the agreement.
But if that's the case, there shouldn't have been any increased agression between Dogpen and Jigoroh.
There is also no evidence that shows their traits are 'changed' as you suggested. This applies most importantly to Odz who should have several traits from Luffy, but if his ambition (arguably Luffy's strongest suit) were to remain, this has dangerous consequences as it could drive him too far for something his size (or any fanfic idea we could come up with) which in turn makes such a trait remaining dangerous to his loyality, which would in turn cancel it out.
It's a goddamned vicious circle.
Anyway, I just hope Oda comments on it someday.
-
Anyway, I just hope Oda comments on it someday.
Well, yeah, I hope this argument about the traits retained by the shadow-powered zombies becomes material for a SBS.
Anyways, I still wonder if Nami will have any chance to defeat Absalom, even tough a fight with Lola is even more possible, considering how Oda is at the time of dealing with Nami.
-
I am going to be very vexed if their is no new chapter this week. I hope they are just late on the spoilers.
Anyway.
I think Nami is going to wake up soon and deal with Absalom, using Lola's help. Cause I think Lola is still on Nami's side for this (dunno how to explain this so well. Been months since I read the beginni- err, middle of Thriller Bark), so we might have a bit of comedy, then Lola getting pissed at Absalom and instead having LOLA take care of Absalom for us, leaving us with Nami to help beat Oz.
It's a wild guess, but maybe one or two things in there could happen? I dunno.
-
@Kaimei-Karasuhebi:
Well, yeah, I hope this argument about the traits retained by the shadow-powered zombies becomes material for a SBS.
What about this: when zombies get orders, they follow them no matter what. But most of the time they live their own life (:ninja:) and their natural traits emerge back…
-
Well that's obvious, it's the main reason for the bonding.
But….again.....I'm not asking what gets left over. I'm pondering via text why they remain.
To which I think I gave a proper explenation but if you continuisly prefer to ignore it and yet ask for more then its ok I guess.
-
Color + Cover for One Piece in WSJ #43 (Ch. 472)
Spoilers are slow this week.
-
826 暇人 ◆oDYN/1uR6o sage 2007/09/12(水) 17:25:25 ID:TNScHeQu0
ついで
42Go金玉(表紙+関東カラー)
ぬるP
愛汁
りぼん
鰤
とらぶる(Cカラー)
勇者1
うさぎ
ドラキュラ君と天使(読みきり)
勇者2
テニス(Cカラー)
M0
○○○
こち亀
P2
ムヒョ
ベル
なんとかなんとか
ジャガーお休み:わんぴ ←←←
43Go 関東カラー+表紙 わんぴ
Cカラー ○○○・P2・ジャガー(巻末カラー)・ロザリオとバンパイアIt seems that one piece is missing this week :(
-
Uh, weird.
Another reliable source has it listed.
-
@Battle:
Uh, weird.
Another reliable source has it listed.
what did it say in the last jump?
Maybe the idiots on 2ch are faking himajins' posts -
Let´s all get down on our knees and pray to our respective gods ….