This is my last post on the topic of Lucci versus Crocodile, since its sort of off-topic seeing as Croc isn't a shichibukai anymore
Lucci just needs to get some water on his fist, then Shigan fist Crocodile's face. That would basically break his nose and implode his brain. LOL
Shichibukai Discussion Thread
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Crocodile will suck him dry! Lucci can't touch Crocodile, period!
Lucci will lose.
Considering how much Lucci knows about fighting and how tactful he was against luffy, Fighting against the croc would be no problem, and being int he assassin group of the Navy , he would've
probably've studied up on the shichibukai, and I'm sure lucci would figure out water was his weakness after a while.And If Kuma had a bear Zoan fruit that would be so cleshay, and most unlike Oda.
If seastone were used on moria what would happen to the shadows you think?
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nothing. exactly the same as if you beat moria up.
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He wouldn´t be able to use Doppleman though. Other than that, nothing happens to the shadows.
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I think Jimbei will not fight against the Strawhats.
I think this because since Jimbei is suppose to be a whale shark fishman and in real life whale sharks are gentle and don't attack humans.
Proof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark#Behaviour_towards_divers -
It would be weird if Jimbei would be a good guy because he used to be the leader of Arlong´s crew. Arlong and his crew were all evil, disrespectful and racist towards humans. If Jimbei was a "gentle" guy why would he be a former nakama to a cutthroat like Arlong?
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It would be weird if Jimbei would be a good guy because he used to be the leader of Arlong´s crew. Arlong and his crew were all evil, disrespectful and racist towards humans. If Jimbei was a "gentle" guy why would he be a former nakama to a cutthroat like Arlong?
Could this possibly be the reason behind their speration?
Also I stand firm that in a way, Arlong was one of the least evil because he cared for his Nakama more than any other Villian (that I can recall) in the series. -
@Kitsune::
Could this possibly be the reason behind their speration?
Also I stand firm that in a way, Arlong was one of the least evil because he cared for his Nakama more than any other Villian (that I can recall) in the series.Yeah but in the same way he enslaved a whole other race of people because of it. That's pretty mean.. ;[[
Arlong Park is such a great arc. I can only hope Fishmen Paradise will be the same.
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@nessfromhyrule:
I think Jimbei will not fight against the Strawhats.
I think this because since Jimbei is suppose to be a whale shark fishman and in real life whale sharks are gentle and don't attack humans.
Proof:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_shark#Behaviour_towards_diversFinally somebody agrees with me on the whole jimbei being a nice character.
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finally? that theory have been up a few times…
atleast once in the "theories that dont deserve their own thread" ... thread.
http://www.apforums.net/showthread.php?p=562732&highlight=Jinbei#post562732 -
@Kitsune::
Could this possibly be the reason behind their speration?
Also I stand firm that in a way, Arlong was one of the least evil because he cared for his Nakama more than any other Villian (that I can recall) in the series.Having a supremist outlook really doesn't qualify him as nice. I'd say he was far more evil than any of the other East Blue villains based on that alone.
I don't see why people want Jinbei to be nice, or are inferring he's nice because Arlong seperated from him. Arlong probably wouldn't have stayed with a captain that had human sympathies for too long, and their history seems to span long enough for Arlong to be his first mate.
I see Jinbei as being just as much a surpemist as Arlong but is willing to hide it for the sake of furthering his own goals.
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k the only reason mora has a high bountey is cause you can ressurect the deadand take shadows frome people
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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I'm pretty sure the reason some people think Jimbei will be a "nice guy" is because whale sharks are known to be gentle, non-predatory fish. Whether this disposition is something that will translate over to the character remains to be seen. In my opinion it seems unlikely; after all, he used to hang around with Arlong, not to mention the fact that he was obviously a very powerful pirate.
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Nonsesne!
Jinbeis is a Shichibukai, he is going to be bloodlusted and he will want to kill.
Barthalamew Kuma will be the strongest shichibukai…Bible > Anything.
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@no:
k the only reason mora has a high bountey is cause you can ressurect the deadand take shadows frome people
Nice deduction from the 4 pages we saw him fight.
Which I might add, he had his eyes closed and was in a reclined position, still blocking luffy's attacks.
I have high hopes for Moria and he is my favorite schichibukai member revealed BY FAR.
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I think you guys are mistaken a little with your overall judging. I'd say this now cleanly, don't kill me please. Thanks.
Croc's stronger than Moria.
If you still can't understand why/how it's connected to anything, I'll explain or something. But I ain't no writing long stuff for nothing :x
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@Rai:
I think you guys are mistaken a little with your overall judging. I'd say this now cleanly, don't kill me please. Thanks.
Croc's stronger than Moria.
If you still can't understand why/how it's connected to anything, I'll explain or something. But I ain't no writing long stuff for nothing :x
So far all we've seen him do is fight using other people, zombies and his shadow. He has done nothing himself. So to date, the thoery that he is weak is STILL counted as he hasn't actually done anything himself yet.
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I got to that because we know that Croc was stronger than Luffy when they first met, then Luffy used experience to surpass him [which is completely legit, don't get me wrong], but thing is if Luffy was to fight Croc as a new opponent, right now, Croc will most definitely win the first battle yet again.
And we know Current Luffy > Moria.Wow, that actually didn't turn out long.
I'm so good at summarizing stuff~ All hail me!
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i dont get that logic Rai…. why do we know Luffy > Moria?
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Not too mention even if Luffy seems to be handling Moria okay, Moria still seems to be barely putting any effort.
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Ah, so Moria's gonna win and then Luffy will challenge him again like he did with Croc?
I don't think he has that kind of luxury.
Common sense? -
Nah, I just think Luffy will have to kick it up a notch once he gets Moria mad enough to stop being lazy.
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…You're missing the point.
Whatever notch he kicks up that notch still won't be able to hurt Croc anyway.
I knew it was strange how my post wasn't long. -
Because Croc's a logia right?
But Rai, you cannot make such a judgement without having seen the extent of Moria's fighting ability. For all we know, he might have a certain attack that could fuck Croc up in seconds. We haven't even seen Moria himself fight yet.
How you came to the conclusion "Luffy > Moria" is beyond me. The fight hasn't really started properly, except Luffy trying to hit Moria who seems to be sleeping. I wouldn't underestimate Moria yet, especially with his bounty, and the concern on Robin's face when she heard his name.
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Seems rai bases it on the fact that we know the hero will beat the villain… what we dont know however is if the villain will go all out or will be limited because of something our hero didnt do... (say the other stawhats gets Luffys shadow back from Odz and then TB exits the fog and sunlight weakens Moria)
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So again you HAVE to get facts on facts for it to seem legible and can't just guess something obvious?
Luffy's gonna beat Moria in whatever way, and that will mean Luffy's stronger than Moria and Croc's stronger than Luffy. THUS I CONCLUDE Croc > Moria.
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But you're basing it on logia power.
It's like saying Shanks can't beat Crocodile because Crocodile has a logia DF ability.
Of course Luffy is gonna beat Moria. Shit, Luffy will beat everyone in his way. What's your point? Oh, because Crocodile beat Luffy twice? Luffy had never dealt with a logia before, and it took him a while to find the weakness. It doesn't matter, Crocodile got his ass kicked in the end anyway.
Luffy is much stronger now than he was before. He's clearly stronger than Crocodile, as he was before when he battered Croc 50 feet into the air.
Croc is no way stronger than Luffy. As I've said, if you're basing it on logia ability, then you'd be saying that Croc can beat two of the already-stated Yonkou, because they haven't got that ability.
Luffy beat Croc. THUS I CONCLUDE Luffy > Croc.
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@Rai:
So again you HAVE to get facts on facts for it to seem legible and can't just guess something obvious?
Luffy's gonna beat Moria in whatever way, and that will mean Luffy's stronger than Moria and Croc's stronger than Luffy. THUS I CONCLUDE Croc > Moria.
Not trying to be a scumbag but based on this logic –-> Luffy would be the strongest of the world , as we already know that he s gonna beat everyone on his path.
And what made me smile is also the contradiction in your sentence:
Luffy beats Moria = Luffy is stronger then Moria
Luffy beats Crocodile = Croc is stronger then Luffy
hmmmm don't quite undertsand you logic -
I can't believe I'm still not giving up.
Did you read my reply to the reply to my first post [intended]?
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think Rai means Croc is stronger then Luffy because Luffy cant beat him without resorting to Gimmick fighting (aka going water luffy).
we dont know if yonkou or other people later in the series will need to resort to gimmick fighting vs logias. bringing up people that may end up beeing beaten later in the series is just bad arguments imo since we can no nothing about the circumstances in which they are beat.
And on that note i want to point out to Rai that we dont know yet under what circumstances Luffy will defeat Moria…
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No matter what gimmick it is it's still counted as fighting, so that's not what I meant when I say Croc's stronger. Actually it's the exact opposite, as long as someone uses a gimmick well he's counted to be stronger.
Luffy won the war, yeah, but he lost the first fight against Croc, in a situation he is now against Moria. He lost to Croc that time, he's gonna beat Moria. Doesn't matter who helped him or who got him into a disadvantage, it's his own strength wether he uses it/avoids it. So unless Luffy LOSES and someone else beats Moria [which will never ever happen] Luffy's gonna be counted as stronger than Moria where he was weaker than Croc. If you somehow erase the Alabasta arc and bring Luffy to fight Croc as an unknown fighter again, Luffy will most likely lose and repeat what happened.Which I've been trying to get in you people's heads for some time now. If you still don't get it then go ahead and assume Moria's stronger than Croc and have a twisted view on the whole thing.
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@Rai:
No matter what gimmick it is it's still counted as fighting, so that's not what I meant when I say Croc's stronger. Actually it's the exact opposite, as long as someone uses a gimmick well he's counted to be stronger.
Luffy won the war, yeah, but he lost the first fight against Croc, in a situation he is now against Moria. He lost to Croc that time, he's gonna beat Moria. Doesn't matter who helped him or who got him into a disadvantage, it's his own strength wether he uses it/avoids it. So unless Luffy LOSES and someone else beats Moria [which will never ever happen] Luffy's gonna be counted as stronger than Moria where he was weaker than Croc. If you somehow erase the Alabasta arc and bring Luffy to fight Croc as an unknown fighter again, Luffy will most likely lose and repeat what happened.Which I've been trying to get in you people's heads for some time now. If you still don't get it then go ahead and assume Moria's stronger than Croc and have a twisted view on the whole thing.
Firstly… this is a different Luffy we're talking about. A stronger, more experienced Luffy. Croc would get his ass handed to him first time around now too. Especially now Luffy is way stronger and holds new states (gears). Secondly, as I've said already, Moria might have an attack that could defeat Crocodile in an instant. You speculate on Moria's fighting ability.
Also, in terms of attributes, who would you say is stronger? You wouldn't know until you've seen Gecko Moria fight seriously.
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I'm surprised noone pulled the bounty card yet…
aw well since this has already derailed into the monstrosity it is now i might as well.
Sir Crocodiles acctuall bounty is only 60% of Morias Frozen bounty... thats almoast half of what Moria got.
Since you count gimmicks as strenght and i count zombie army as gimmick (hope you dont mind) we can come to the concluesion that Moria > Crocodile.
(yes i know this is stupid... there is not that much conviction in my word. iv pretty much given up i just want to see what Rai responds to the bounty card...)
What the…? Holy smurf am I slow! Until this statement of yours I never even realized that an octopus is actually serving octopusballs. Talk about not seeing the forest because of too many trees. facepalm
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Rai, I think using Luffy to compare Moria and Crocodile's strength in inheritly flawed. First off, what difference does it make to Moria that Crocodile nearly killed him a few times? The Luffy of today has a different type of power then the Luffy of the past. Look at the time Lucci impaled Luffy–wasn't it similar to the time Luffy impaled Crocodile? Yet, at Water 7 Luffy recovered from that injury easily, while at Alabasta it "nearly killed him." Also, what would Crocodile's hook do to Moria? He's huge, that thing wouldn't reach most of his vital areas. If Luffy fought Croc now he'd beat him easily--he doesn't even need water since blood would work. In fact, doesn't gear 2 cover him in mist?
Also, I don't get how Luffy not knowing Croc's ability would make a difference vs. Moria--does he know about Logia abilities? Seeing as Moria traveled to the New World he might. We can't assume that everyone is in the dark concerning Logia powers.
I think you have to compare Moria vs. Crocodile in how their attacks would effet each other, and you can't until we see all of Moria's moves.
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I'm surprised noone pulled the bounty card yet…
aw well since this has already derailed into the monstrosity it is now i might as well.
Sir Crocodiles acctuall bounty is only 60% of Morias Frozen bounty... thats almoast half of what Moria got.
Since you count gimmicks as strenght and i count zombie army as gimmick (hope you dont mind) we can come to the concluesion that Moria > Crocodile.
(yes i know this is stupid... there is not that much conviction in my word. iv pretty much given up i just want to see what Rai responds to the bounty card...)
Yeah, the army is a fair gimmick. But it all depends on how you use it.
About the bounty you should firstly consider personalities. I've actually wanted to say it for some time but always forgot. That bounties are affected the LEAST from the actual strength [including gimmicks]. You should already know that of the countless people who had the power to put Enies Lobby in dust [including newcomers in the same situation as Luffy] will pass by not because they're scared, but because they don't put a shit on it. You can easily see which one of Croc or Moria will be more likely to invade a place similiar and cause a rockus. Not to mention Luffy's bounty is overrated [though underestimated to his strength] because of the shock the WG got from mistaking EL to be some holy shit.Rai, I think using Luffy to compare Moria and Crocodile's strength in inheritly flawed. First off, what difference does it make to Moria that Crocodile nearly killed him a few times? The Luffy of today has a different type of power then the Luffy of the past. Look at the time Lucci impaled Luffy–wasn't it similar to the time Luffy impaled Crocodile? Yet, at Water 7 Luffy recovered from that injury easily, while at Alabasta it "nearly killed him." Also, what would Crocodile's hook do to Moria? He's huge, that thing wouldn't reach most of his vital areas. If Luffy fought Croc now he'd beat him easily--he doesn't even need water since blood would work. In fact, doesn't gear 2 cover him in mist?
Also, I don't get how Luffy not knowing Croc's ability would make a difference vs. Moria--does he know about Logia abilities? Seeing as Moria traveled to the New World he might. We can't assume that everyone is in the dark concerning Logia powers.
I think you have to compare Moria vs. Crocodile in how their attacks would effet each other, and you can't until we see all of Moria's moves.
Luffy's stronger than he was, of course, but all he advanced in was a field he was superior to Croc even before. He could probably end it in the second fight, but you should see what the results are when Luffy confronts someone with half-assed abilities since he underestimates people, then he gets fucked up for the most idiotic reasons. Do you think Luffy, in the same situation he was in the 2 minutes bonus against Croc, go "Shit he turns into sand maybe if I activate Gear 2nd somehow he wouldn't become sand"? He'd lose again.
And now you see Moria losing to Luffy who is losing to Croc. Saying Moria can win using an attack that can work against Croc is opening another fucking VS debate, leave me out of it. -
Rai, you're basing this all on Croc's logia. The only reason Luffy lost twice was because of Croc's logia ability.
You're saying that logia users > non-logia users. Well, so far that's been proven right, however I think that when somebody comes to a certain strength, logia attacks can be avoided. I do not see someone like Whitebeard (a non-logia user, highly likely) lose to someone like Croc.
Rai, using the logia arguement would be better for you. Using the "Luffy lost twice" means nothing, as Luffy is different now, and it had all to do with the logia ability, which Moria doesn't have.
And for the third time, you're judging too early. Wait 'till Luffy vs Moria.
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I don't use the Logia excuse nor the Luffy Lost Twice excuse.
It's a fact that Croc was stronger than Luffy when they first met, and this is likely still compatible with the current Luffy. It's a fact that Luffy is stronger than Moria [don't make me!].
That's all.I would have, seriously, tried to explain better and all of that shit, but bear with it and gather some common sense and help me out a little. I'm dying for various reasons right now as it is.
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And you can prove that Croc is stronger than current Luffy, how? With the logia excuse of course.
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Rai im going to argue with you here, since you accepted that Morias zombie army is a gimmick, that Moria > Luffy simply because Moria managed to steal Luffys shadow (with the help of his army).
Some sunlight and Luffy is dead. Moria has already beaten Luffy.What the…? Holy smurf am I slow! Until this statement of yours I never even realized that an octopus is actually serving octopusballs. Talk about not seeing the forest because of too many trees. facepalm
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Rai im going to argue with you here, since you accepted that Morias zombie army is a gimmick, that Moria > Luffy simply because Moria managed to steal Luffys shadow (with the help of his army).
Some sunlight and Luffy is dead. Moria has already beaten Luffy.Moria chose to run away, how did Luffy lose?
He could have won but he didn't. Croc could have won and did.$abZ: Yeah, of course. Is there any other reason Croc is as strong as he is? What I meant with Logia excuse is that you said I might mean Moria might lose because he doesn't know what a Logia is.. something like that.
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Croc never made it to the New World. Moria is stronger. Now STFU or GTFO.
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Well, Luffy's not that strong. He's no better than a Logia. So far, most of Luffy's fights had been won due to his luck of damage being reduced greatly because of his rubber body. I mean, Luffy would have lost to Lucci (Not in leopard form) if he was as normal as Zoro or Sanji. Hell, we can also argue that Rokougan's true strength, wich I assume was massive internal damage, was kinda useless against Luffy, so soometimes it's ridiculous when people argue about Luffy surviving trough that shitload of punishment just because he possibly has super human endurance, wich I don't doubt, tough….
PS: Moria vs Crocodile would be interesting, even tough Crocodile's most lethal weapon was the poisoned hook, wich somehow was useless due to Luffy's constant stretching....
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@Rai:
I don't use the Logia excuse nor the Luffy Lost Twice excuse.
It's a fact that Croc was stronger than Luffy when they first met, and this is likely still compatible with the current Luffy. It's a fact that Luffy is stronger than Moria [don't make me!].
That's all.I would have, seriously, tried to explain better and all of that shit, but bear with it and gather some common sense and help me out a little. I'm dying for various reasons right now as it is.
Still incompatible? Luffy would easily beat Croc at this point, considering that by the end of the fight luffy had a complete advantage in speed and strength. Plus, he now knows about Logia's…why are you taking them away in your argument?
And it's unfair to compair that to Luffy's future opponents, because Luffy now has the same speed and strength that beat Croc in the end, and more. The Luffy that beat Crocodile is right now fighting Moria. Don't undo One Piece current "reality" to prove your point, it doesn't make sense.
Tell me, what would Luffy in Alabasta do against Moria now? Look at their fight so far, Moria took a kick in the ass with little damage. Meanwhile, if Croc took that kick he'd have his body distorted.
Of course, the point of this was whether or not Moria is stronger then Crocodile, right? Well, what evidence do you have that isn't based Crocodile killing Luffy, cause against Moria those attacks would work differently. For one thing, Moria's shadow could probably easily block the hook, as well as any attempt to touch him and drain the water from his body.
After all, we can assume that Crocodile is slower then Luffy right? Well, isn't Moria right now blocking all of Luffy's attacks--even gatling--with just his first shadow move? Moria's doing better then Crocodile right now, because unlike that logia Moria's shadow is blocking attacks well and even when hit Moria isn't a complete wuss at taking damage.
@Kaimei-Karasuhebi, I disagree that Luffy's rubber fruit gives him a "lucky" advantage.
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Still incompatible? Luffy would easily beat Croc at this point, considering that by the end of the fight luffy had a complete advantage in speed and strength. Plus, he now knows about Logia's…why are you taking them away in your argument?
Tell me, what would Luffy in Alabasta do against Moria now? Look at their fight so far, Moria took a kick in the ass with little damage. Meanwhile, if Croc took that kick he'd have his body distorted.
Of course, the point of this was whether or not Moria is stronger then Crocodile, right? Well, what evidence do you have that isn't based Crocodile killing Luffy, cause against Moria those attacks would work differently. For one thing, Moria's shadow could probably easily block the hook, as well as any attempt to touch him and drain the water from his body.
After all, we can assume that Crocodile is slower then Luffy right? Well, isn't Moria right now blocking all of Luffy's attacks--even gatling--with just his first shadow move? Moria's doing better then Crocodile right now, because unlike that logia Moria's shadow is blocking attacks well and even when hit Moria isn't a complete wuss at taking damage.
Well, we could say that Moria's Lard is his own Impact Reducing Rubber Body, while Crocodile only had a body that was fit for his stealthy Logia fighting style. Arguing about who's stronger would be like arguing something like why Baku-Baku would be more effective on Moria, someone who uses shadows, than it was on Crocodile…
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@Rai:
Moria chose to run away, how did Luffy lose?
He could have won but he didn't. Croc could have won and did.I do not recall Moria running away.
when exactly did Crocodile win? when he stuffed Luffy in the Sand pit? or when he drained him?
How is stealing his shadow knocking him out for an extended period of time and placeing him on the ship awaiting to be shipped off never able to lerave the fog any different from crocodiles win? -
Then with that you're all demanding proof again. Like I said, I don't have it. So I can't argue with that in any way.
It might get you guys a little angry I'm not answering what you wrote, but leave that. The point in why I made that statement in the first place was for bounty comparison and we left that in dust already.
Oh, btw onemoment, Croc is slower than Luffy for the same reason Luffy is slower than bullets. If they needed to they'd practice to avoid it in a different way, but they don't need to, so they didn't practice. Which is why I hate gimmick arguments.
EDIT:
Gorlom: It's different because what Moria won wasn't a fight, it was pure stealing.
But darn, refer to second paragraph.ONE LAST EDIT:
Wanting and needing to go to sleep. Don't miss me <3 -
@Kaimei-Karasuhebi:
Well, we could say that Moria's Lard is his own Impact Reducing Rubber Body, while Crocodile only had a body that was fit for his stealthy Logia fighting style. Arguing about who's stronger would be like arguing something like why Baku-Baku would be more effective on Moria, someone who uses shadows, than it was on Crocodile…
I'm aware that this argument might be useless, as many on the Internet are. But….I have time.
Anyway, what is your point? Moria's fat isn't an excuse for why he can take hits better then Crocodile, the point is he just can (though the fact that he's a giant might be it). But, I find it a little ridiculous to suggest that Crocodile is stronger then Moria. This is a Crocodile vs. Moria arguement.
Oh, btw onemoment, Croc is slower than Luffy for the same reason Luffy is slower than bullets. If they needed to they'd practice to avoid it in a different way, but they don't need to, so they didn't practice. Which is why I hate gimmick arguments
I don't care why Crocodile is slow, I just said that he is. My point to that was that Croc is slower then Luffy, who is getting blocked (mostly) by Moria's shadow. So, that's one advantage that Moria would have in a fight against him, since that blocks Croc's deadliest attacks.
But, from your post it seems that you don't want to argue. I just wanted to clarify that first.
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@Rai:
I got to that because we know that Croc was stronger than Luffy when they first met, then Luffy used experience to surpass him [which is completely legit, don't get me wrong], but thing is if Luffy was to fight Croc as a new opponent, right now, Croc will most definitely win the first battle yet again.
And we know Current Luffy > Moria.Wow, that actually didn't turn out long.
I'm so good at summarizing stuff~ All hail me!Um…..yea, retarded logic imo.
Sorry, that's all I see it as.
Luffy was never "weaker" than croc. You just can't touch him without water. No amount of strength changes that. Once he figured that much out, Croc basically couldn't do anything to him but dry out the area and land a cheap shot.
and I'm not about to discuss "whos stronger" in one piece because there is no such thing really. One piece has physical strength and abilities, and then powers that even out the playing field. No real comparable power levels.
All I will say though is that someone whom is that relaxed in a fight is no bitch.
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This is a fun arc.
I believe that it could be a tie. Without minions though… perona could whup Croc's ass, and Baroque Works Agents could whup Moria's ass when working togehter
But still
In an open field one on one
Moria takes Croc's shadow (somehow, with his laziness and all)
Croc turns into sand.
Can't be burnt when he's in sad form. He then just needs to torture Moria with fists and sand in his eyes and stuff until he gives back his shadow. Of course, thats assuming that Croc isn't burnt up.
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