Chapter 456 "Demon from the Frozen Land" Discussion

Gorlom

So kaidou can translate into 2 different houses of worship?

could he in anyway be related to Bartholemew Kuma? (random Theory tossing)

game2005: It steems from people denying Brook membership to the SH club because "he is a swordsman and he would have to do battle with Zoro to see who is the strongest". If he has fought with Ryuuma on 2 or more occations and lost and Zoro shows up to defeat Ryuuma, Zoro will without a doubt be considered stronger then Brook right? Also Brook has already lost a "crushing defeat" atleast once to Ryuuma which makes us speculate it is likely it will happen again.

Lieju

I wonder if Oz is of some species that is closely related to the modern giants of the OP world?

Like what the Neanderthals were to the modern humans…

game2005

Well, Luffy got a crushing defeat from Crocodile twice. Going by that logic, Luffy should lose to Crocodile the third fight too. If Luffy is able to prevail after several battles, Brooke should be able to win this fight too.

Gorlom

Well luffys battle is kinda different imo… he suffered crushing defeats by his own strenght due to Crocodiles abilities, when he finally sealed Crocs DF powers with water and blood (trumph card?) he came out victorious.

Brook cant effect the battle outcome with salt (presumably) he needs to beat Ryuuma before he can purify him and reclaim his shadow.

Lieju: do you think the Giant "neanderthals" still exists side by side with current giants or did the modern giants evolve out of the primitive ones?
500 years seems a bit short for any evolution to take place to me when the lifespan of a giant is 300 years.
Personally i have trouble with giants like that existing "today" in OP. he probably is very special or had something special happen to him that altered his apearance. (possibly Hogback made some cosmetic surgery to make him look more frightening to give a psychological advantage)

Chino

@Gorlom:

Personally i have trouble with giants like that existing "today" in OP. he probably is very special or had something special happen to him that altered his apearance. (possibly Hogback made some cosmetic surgery to make him look more frightening to give a psychological advantage)

I think Oz already looked like that when hogback found him as he said "When I saw this guy's body from the frozen land, I couldn't stop trembling".

Lieju

I meant that they would be to the giants what the neanderthals were to the modern humans; another species(or subspecies) of the same genus that co-existed with other one for a time.

I agree 500 years is too short time for the modern giants to evolve from giants like Oz.

We don't know if this species still exists somewhere. (and since there are islands with dinosaurs on the GL, why not?)

Gorlom

since he knows the name of the guy and when he died he probably knows alot about him and his reputation when he was alive. Which means he could have trembled because he found someone he knew was immensly strong and not because he found someone that looked frightening/strong/cool.

but you are right. he could have looked like that when Moria/hogback found him. i just dont think he did (Hogback seems to have done atleast some reconstruction and modification unless Oz race all has a striped patch on their bellys)

@Lieju:

We don't know if this species still exists somewhere. (and since there are islands with dinosaurs on the GL, why not?)

One reason could be: because unique and unbeliveble phenomenons occur in GL. the northen continent is most likely not part of The GL which makes it more likely reason applies to the origin of Oz.
the world outside GL to me seems relativly safe. something like that monsterous giant should be confined to somewhere at the end of the new world imo.
but theese are all baseless speculations of mine and i am not set in my belives about Oz.

Lieju

We don't know where Oz was originally from. And seeing how little we actually know about him, we can't do much more then speculate.

Gorlom

I'm assuming Oz is not from GL because the seastone application to the bottom of a ship is fairly new invention of Dr vegapunk, Zeff is credited to be one of the VERY few to ever leave GL at the beginning of the series.

and Oz is 500 years old and Montblanc was exploring GL 400 years ago which would indicate transvering the calmbelts was not a common practice.

Ofc his home COULD be/have been somewhere in the first part of GL makeing it possible to escaped through the red line.

smurfx

what if oz was a product of genetic experimentation? maybe he was created by the same people that created the devil fruits? he seriously does not look the slightest bit like a human and he doesn't really look like a fishman either. i've always thought that somebody created the devil fruits and who ever it was must of been a really advanced society and who knows maybe they even created the devil fruits to fight off the ones who would eventually create the world government. that or perhaps the ones that created the world government created the devil fruits but i doubt that since the world government doesn't know all the devil fruits. who knows maybe there is another race besides humans and fish people, maybe animal humans? maybe they went extinct during the void century?

Ivotas

@Gorlom:

I'm assuming Oz is not from GL because the seastone application to the bottom of a ship is fairly new invention of Dr vegapunk, Zeff is credited to be one of the VERY few to ever leave GL at the beginning of the series.

and Oz is 500 years old and Montblanc was exploring GL 400 years ago which would indicate transvering the calmbelts was not a common practice.

It is still not said that there is no regular way other then crossing the Calm Belt to leave the Grand Line. Our best guess is still that at Maryjoa there´s a way to leave it going by Norlands words after speaking about returning home.

Gorlom

Yes but why bother bringing a criminal from the GL out to the northen continent?

and shame on you ivotas for cutting my post short in your quote! =P

Ivotas

I repeat my question, where exactly does the "northern continent" part stay? I somehow managed to always skip it when I read it. Any help would be nice.

As to why bothering to bring someone far away - Does that even need to be answered? If he´s a criminal and you want to deal with him you lock him away as far out of your reach as possible. That´s the principle how prisons work. And seeing it that the Grand Line seems to be the main part of the WG territory you want to have them as far out of reach as possible. Don´t see whats so unclear here.

And I cut your quote because I was only replying to that part. That´s actually something everybody should do when replying to a post that contains more then one thought that could be replied to. It´s supposed to make the conversation easier by showing which matters are being adressed actually. ;)

Gorlom

I dont know i just get the feeling the seas werent as simple to travell back then. and there wouldnt be much point in takeing a strong dangerous guy OUT of the ferocious GL to the relativly calm and safe waters outside it imo.

No idea where the northern continent bit comes from… cant find it atm either but im a really lazy guy. but since it was talked about in the same context as "could 900 be Saul" i assume it was before this chapter.

Ivotas

Seeing it that the current WG was created 800 years ago and that it is a union of the four Blues plus the Grand Line I´d say that it was pretty much able 800 years ago already to sail the Grand Line like today (which means the New World is still the big unkown).

I mean compare it to Guantanamo. Why sending people that the US Govt. considers as criminals to Cuba? If they are criminals to US standards why not imprison them within the USA? It´s the same "the further away the less I´m bothered by them" concept as for the place Oz has been sent to.

Gorlom

well i cant say anything about that… even though the WG union i still got the impression that the sea was kinda inaccesseble. Perhaps to everyone that was not a sactioned expedition to the WG? Maybe the only way out was through Majeora(sp?) and you needed the WGs permission for that.

the distance was never really the issue Ivotas. it was bringing someone that dangerous out to a blue where the currently highest Bounty (highest danger) is around 20 million. The bounty is only mentioned to argue that north, east, west and south blue are generally safer places then the GL.
This is all under the assumption that the frozen country/northen continent is outside the GL. if that is the case i belive Oz homeland is also outside the GL.

Raven Bay

Dont know if this has been mentioned, but do we think that Oz is named after Australia (which is often dubbed Oz by locals). Seeing as Oz comes from a country founded by criminals, and that australia was originally used as a penal colony. (UK and wales shipped out criminals to australia, where they founded their own country)

Lieju

I think someone mentioned it a while back. Can't blame you for not noticing it, though, seeing this thread is rather long.

Gorlom

It was mentioned but the information about locals calling Australia for Oz is new i think.

there was also a mention about the Tv prison series called Oz but that one is probably unlikely =P

AWB

Oz reminds me of

.

WanMQ

Rootbeer, how delightfully unrelated! What a diversion! (I did, actually, find it very enjoyable).

Oh, I'm beginning to think that Brooke will indeed join the crew, though that still isn't entirely clear. Oda could want us to think that Brooke's going to join. Or maybe he wants us to think that he thinks that we think Brooke will join. Ah, the dizzying mind of an artist.

I do think Brooke will have to defeat Ryuuma, for the sake of his honor…and his ancestors...and his daimyou. If someone else beats Ryuuma, then Brooke's existence for the last five years was in vain.

This Oz fellow is an interesting development. He is terribly big, isn't he? As for what I think will happen, that rebellion theory sounds pretty good. Yeah, I'll go with that.

I do like this story, really I do.

We're off to see the wizard...

SuperStar

@Moria:

I have a few predictions for next chapter and future chapters after that.
1. Brook's past - This has got to be coming up soon, with Ryuuma and Brook beginning their fight. I think something like Brook died from jumping in the way of some sword or something to save a crewmember. Then, he died but his crewmember and crew still were all slaughtered. Then Brook probably wanted revenge but got his shadow stolen, nd then went after Ryuuma, a possible crewmate of his, and lost. Thats probably why Franky cried.
Either that will be revealed next chapter,the start of it anyway… or...
2. Oz awakens with Luffy's shadow, Brook and Ryuuma start to fight, and in the end Sanji and Zoro begin to awake while Franky and Robin meet up with the weak weak trio.

Brooke really does NOT need a flashback of how he was defeated by Ryuma when Brooke's past info was already revealed on how he made it to Thriller Bark and got his bones handed to him by Ryuma. Brooke and Ryuma are going to fight, we don't need a flashback of their current battle, don't you think that would be too much for a Mini arc?

I like your second theory though…...

Pants-eater

Oz being related to Australia would be awesome.

He probably has some sort of Uluru cannon.

AWB

This post is deleted!

Kaze no Barako

@Pants-eater:

Oz being related to Australia would be awesome.

He probably has some sort of Uluru cannon.

Is… this a Legend of Legaia reference? O_O

And yes, that would be awesome. Countries of outlaws ftw. :3

Pants-eater

Uluru cannon as in firing giant fucking chunks of rock.

But I think it's just meant to sound cool.

Greg

Not only does his design freaking rock balls and make up for the fact that Moria looks like a highly infected penis, but just the thought that THAT is going to have Luffy's personality….........

Oh, it's just too amazing to even begin imagining. I don't even want to think about it because I get chills out the the HILARITY that is going to transpire.

And Brooke is so in.

Ivotas

Stephen´s script is out.^^

game2005

Sorry if this is brought up, but someone in GameFaqs thought Oda must have came up with Oz based on this:

And for what Oda might have based this zombie on (you know how he makes so many references), I'm thinking about the 9th circle of hell (The Divine Comedy).
-9th Circle has the offender FROZEN to a certain point, and Oz has been in a huge freezer.
-He's called a devil, so hell.
-He's got the number 900 on his shoulder.

Gorlom

Hmm seems Brook has already fought Ryuuma this time and got tossed out of Hogbacks mansion.

So that is 2 losses for Brook total.

Ivotas seems we know what "continent" came from now… since he pulled Islands together it is a logical conclusion that he created a "continent". so its probably from the spolier (don't know if its a mistranslation or not)

(didnt Arlong try something similar? or he didnt move the islands themselves perhaps)

Greg

GODDAMN I LOVE THE FACT THAT LUFFY'S SHADOW IS GOING TO BE MOVING THAT THING!!!!!

It's going to be legendary. This is the greatest awesome cool thing/gag Oda has ever pulled.

I love it…..LOVE IT!!!!

Ivotas

@Gorlom:

Ivotas seems we know what "continent" came from now… since he pulled Islands together it is a logical conclusion that he created a "continent". so its probably from the spolier (don't know if its a mistranslation or not)

Yeah, as always my the understanding of a chapter reaches its peak after reading Stephen´s translations. I didn´t even get the "Nation-Puller" part beforehand. I completely understood it different beforehand.

Pretty nice idea actually to not only conquer an island but also take it you back home like some sort of trophy. Me likes.

Another thing that I just catched after reading this trans is the entire Perona thingy not knowing Brook. The "…no WONDER he passed through our surveillance." is something that I didn´t get before. I´m quite curious to see that part elaborated. I´m sure there´s more to it.

(didnt Arlong try something similar? or he didnt move the islands themselves perhaps)

Huh, when did Arlong move any islands? The only thing in the Arlong arc when something got moved was when Hachi moved that large rock underwater.

Rai

@Greg:

GODDAMN I LOVE THE FACT THAT LUFFY'S SHADOW IS GOING TO BE MOVING THAT THING!!!!!

It's going to be legendary. This is the greatest awesome cool thing/gag Oda has ever pulled.

I love it…..LOVE IT!!!!

What's scary is that Oda managed to connect him and Luffy perfectly. Having that thing as a brawler who goes all out every single time, ready to protect his nakama with his life. HELL YEAH

Ah, Stephen's script! Thanks Ivotas.
Shame I need to go right now, anyways post here if something important was discovered there. :D

Gorlom

No i meant that Arlong was creating a kind of empire and there seemed to be more villages on the island Arlong park was located on but i dont think he acctually moved any islands.

i made a connection between them for some reason when i read that.

Ivotas

But isn´t that something every conqueror does?

Greg

What's scary is that Oda managed to connect him and Luffy perfectly. Having that thing as a brawler who goes all out every single time, ready to protect his nakama with his life. HELL YEAH

Well, I dunno about that but I can't wait for the thing to get INSANE meat cravings and have sparkly eyes at the potential of adventure.

Hiso

Thanks for Stephen's script, looks like Brooke made another Bone joke and we didn't noticed it XD

@Gorlom:

Hmm seems Brook has already fought Ryuuma this time and got tossed out of Hogbacks mansion.

So that is 2 losses for Brook total.

It's possible that Brooke wasn't defeated by Ryuma when he caused this giant mess on Thriller Bark 5 years ago… but it's interesting that Brooke looks really nervous.
Well, I want to say that something seems very wrong to me on this island: Both sides, Brooke and the Thriller Bark-people, are very nervous. Why are Hogback and Co. so freaked out, when they heard about Brooke? Of course, he went berserk and killed several Zombies, but on the other hand, Brooke says that he was crushing defeated. So... there must be a person on Thriller Bark, who's able to take out Brooke easily (perhaps Ryuma, but his "warning" to Brooke sounds like they meet each other the first time). So, if such a persons exits, why are Hogback and Co. so nervous? They could say "Call the guy who took out Brooke the last time!" and everything would be fine :wassat:

Ah yes, and I noticed something: Some people believe that Brooke's promise to his nakama is to leave the fog together with new nakama... but that's impossible. If I get Brooke's story right, his entire crew was killed BEFORE he found the barrel, wich leads his ship into the fog... his crew was killed several years ago, but he found the trap five years ago. But on the other hand: I think in chapter 443, Brooke said that he entered the fog together with his nakama. Something's wrong here, too oo" (or maybe I just get the entire case wrong...)
Well, Brooke's sentence "I might escape this sea of demons and complete my promise to my fellows!!!" can have two meanings: He fulfills the promise with leaving the fog OR he's able to fulfill another, unknown promise, after he left the Florian Triangle. But I can't imagine that the promise was just to escape the Triangle... I mean, I can't imagine that Brooke ran in he middle of the battle to all his friends and said "YOu know, I'm going to be the only survivor and I promise to leave this fog, yohohoho!"

Aeque

It'd be pretty funny if it ate something salty right away and they had to go re-steal the shadow.

But I doubt they even keep any on the premises (aside from in the rations they stole from the Sunny).

EDIT: Oh, and someone on GameFAQs theorized that perhaps Brook's crew had composed some music together, and his promise was to get the world to hear it.

Greg

I can't wait for Brooke's flashback. Gonna be fantastic.

ITSALION

@Hiso:

Thanks for Stephen's script, looks like Brooke made another Bone joke and we didn't noticed it XD

It's possible that Brooke wasn't defeated by Ryuma when he caused this giant mess on Thriller Bark 5 years ago… but it's interesting that Brooke looks really nervous.
Well, I want to say that something seems very wrong to me on this island: Both sides, Brooke and the Thriller Bark-people, are very nervous. Why are Hogback and Co. so freaked out, when they heard about Brooke? Of course, he went berserk and killed several Zombies, but on the other hand, Brooke says that he was crushing defeated. So... there must be a person on Thriller Bark, who's able to take out Brooke easily (perhaps Ryuma, but his "warning" to Brooke sounds like they meet each other the first time). So, if such a persons exits, why are Hogback and Co. so nervous? They could say "Call the guy who took out Brooke the last time!" and everything would be fine :wassat:

Ah yes, and I noticed something: Some people believe that Brooke's promise to his nakama is to leave the fog together with new nakama... but that's impossible. If I get Brooke's story right, his entire crew was killed BEFORE he found the barrel, wich leads his ship into the fog... his crew was killed several years ago, but he found the trap five years ago. But on the other hand: I think in chapter 443, Brooke said that he entered the fog together with his nakama. Something's wrong here, too oo" (or maybe I just get the entire case wrong...)
Well, Brooke's sentence "I might escape this sea of demons and complete my promise to my fellows!!!" can have two meanings: He fulfills the promise with leaving the fog OR he's able to fulfill another, unknown promise, after he left the Florian Triangle. But I can't imagine that the promise was just to escape the Triangle... I mean, I can't imagine that Brooke ran in he middle of the battle to all his friends and said "YOu know, I'm going to be the only survivor and I promise to leave this fog, yohohoho!"

Brooke never said anything about being led into the fog; he was already in the fog when he died. He specifically tells everyone how his SOUL got LOST. Remember? The Yoni Yoni no Mi?
He's been in the fog since before he died.

Gizmo

@Hiso:

It's possible that Brooke wasn't defeated by Ryuma when he caused this giant mess on Thriller Bark 5 years ago… but it's interesting that Brooke looks really nervous.
Well, I want to say that something seems very wrong to me on this island: Both sides, Brooke and the Thriller Bark-people, are very nervous. Why are Hogback and Co. so freaked out, when they heard about Brooke? Of course, he went berserk and killed several Zombies, but on the other hand, Brooke says that he was crushing defeated. So... there must be a person on Thriller Bark, who's able to take out Brooke easily (perhaps Ryuma, but his "warning" to Brooke sounds like they meet each other the first time). So, if such a persons exits, why are Hogback and Co. so nervous? They could say "Call the guy who took out Brooke the last time!" and everything would be fine

They're probably really nervous because he knows the zombie's weakness. So, even if there is a zombie that could beat him, it still doesn't change the fact that Brooke can cause damage to the zombie army by getting rid of valuable forces.

I also like how Brooke seems to be near the freezer. Although its probably just to fight Ryuuma to get his shadow back, I think that his crew is in there as corpses and he just wants to say goodbye to them one last time.
That's sappy, and just the kind of manly honorable thing to do to make Franky and Robin like him.

Buuhan1

finally read the chapter Holy f-in' shit man. This arc is turning EPIC.

game2005

What do you think Brooke's dream is? Seeing that he is a musician, maybe he wants the whole word to listen to the music he composed.

Ivotas

Nah, I thinks is rather composing a music masterpiece. Probably the story of the next Pirate King. Remember that in many cultures hero legends are transfered through songs. Would work here too.

If that´s the case I actually see one more factor for combining Strawhat dreams. If the Rio-Poneglyph really leads to One Piece and revails the void century (which hopefully will change the order of the world) then this is also subject for a song of legends that has to be heard by the entire world. Just thinking out loud.

Buuhan1

But really, for Brooke to still join after all this, I honestly believe he's gonna have to gain flesh. Which I don't know how'd this happen as it rotted away.

who is this kaidou that moria was reffering to has he been mentioned in the past before

ITSALION

No, Kaidou is someone completely new.

Onigumo

In reading Stephens script, I noticed something.
Franky wanted to ask Brook a question. When we see Franky and Robin again, we see Franky having one of his emotional "not" crying moments, and Robin asking why Franky asked such a question.

Franky: Oww!!
What?! I ain't cryin', punk!!
Don't look at me!!!
Hauh…

Robin: Why... Why did you ask him that?

So what was the question that Franky asked? and will we ever find out? and is it important or stupid?

Ivotas

@Onigumo:

So what was the question that Franky asked? and will we ever find out? and is it important or stupid?

Of course we will find it out before this arc is over. Oda doesn´t create suspense scenes for nothing.

ctarlong910

I don't think Oda sits there saying to himself " what secrets can I make and never revea?"