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Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead)
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I dunno man, the fact Oda can write an actual story for the likes of Senor Pink between a random fight and the next, but he couldn't be arsed to do the same for Mr. "New Strawhat Crewmate" in an arc so with so many scenes like Wano, just says a lot.
I'm too busy being annoyed that we had to spend so much time with that non-character instead of somebody more interesting like Denjiro or freaking Bepo to start considering if Yamato deserves to be promoted to protagonist of the whole freaking manga.
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Honestly, when Yamato was talking about joining the crew in the second chapter after his introduction, I felt it was a huge red flag already.
First, because it was very unlike Oda's style. He likes to keep readers guessing until the very last moment.
Second, because it felt like a cheap attempt to make people care for the character. Instead of slowly building Yamato up with the usual drip-feeding of information, he front-loaded most of Yamato's story, and just telling, rather than showing, it. Then Oda used the next crewmate card to say "this character is important, he matters, so keep an eye on him".
Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@black-leg-jex
He doesn't have conflict. He doesn't grow or change. He doesn't learn anything. He doesn't lose or gain anything. If there was a story about how he decided to become Oden, we certainly didn't see it.This is objectively not true. For starters, we know exactly why Yamato wanted to become Oden. When he was a child he was inspired by Oden due to his actions and everything Shinobu said, and it made Yamato infatuated with the Samurai Spirit, so much so that Yamato said he wanted to grow up to be like Oden and carry on his spirit. This pissed Kaidou off and he beat Yamato and put chains on him, but Yamato wouldn't give up on this idea and so he was eventually locked away. There he met the Daimyo and they taught him how to read Oden's journal, fed him and ultimately sacrificed themselves to save his life. All this only deepend Yamato's love for the samurai and it's also where he learnt about Oden's wish to open Wano, about the 9 Scabbards and the fated war in 20 years. Through all this, Yamato developed his first dream about fulfilling Oden's wish and saving Wano, embodying the spirit of Oden in anyway possible.
Over this 20 year period, Yamato started gaining the desire to leave Onigashima and Wano so he could go on adventures just like Oden did, and when he met Ace this desire only increased. But Yamato had spent all this time running from Kaidou and only fantazising about leaving, mainly because of the explosive shackles but also because he was relying on Ace to return and save him. It's only after he learnt of Ace's death that Yamato was emboldened to actually try and defeat Kaidou all on his own while he waited for Luffy to arrive instead.
But part of Yamato still didn't want to hate his father, despite all the abuse. He just knew that defeating Kaidou is the only way to save himself and Wano. It's only after Luffy confirms that the cuffs would have absolutely exploded and killed Yamato that he realised that Kaidou didn't care about him and so he decided to cut Kaidou off entirely. He fully dedicates himself to the Samurai, even being willing to die alongside them if they fail.
It's also Yamato's infatuation with the Samurai that keeps him in Wano in the end. He's aware that Momo and the others aren't strong enough to deal with any type of threat and believes if he leaves then the Samurai run the risk of just being captured again. Even if that delays Yamato's dream from coming true, he chooses to stay there until Momo or someone can get strong enough that Yamato isn't needed anymore. He realises he can't just leave, and while it's frustrating for us as readers it makes sense that he would come to this conclusion in-universe.
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I think Yamato's character in wanting to continue taking on Oden's persona as is will really depend on how happy and satisfied Yamato is with doing so.
Again, I think back to what Iceburg said back in Chapter 437. He said things to Franky like:
"You stay here out of guilt."
"You called yourself a bounty hunter just so you could protect this island from pirates who tried to sack this city."
"You did it all to protect this city of water that Tom loved."
"You suppressed your dream all this time."
"You've long since earned the right to live out your dream."
And I very much agreed. I would have really hated if Franky had to suppress his dream due to Aqua Laguna wrecking the entire city or pirates sacking it. So if any of you guys wanted to know why I wasn't so keen on Yamato being forced to stay on Wano forever, whether because of some tree branch Admiral, a cursed fruit, a sense of duty, or whatever, then just think about to what could have happened to Franky, because he could have ended up staying on Water 7 forever out of guilt, whilst letting his dreams die away and never getting to enjoy his time at sea with Luffy.
If Oda had the idea for Iceburg to call out on Franky's bullcrap back then, then it wouldn't surprise me at all if he had a similar idea he wanted to play out between Momo and Yamato. Momo calling out on Yamato's lie for why she stayed and Yamato accusing Momo of being too much of a weakling for his failure with that tree branch Admiral is def something that would totally make sense.
If Oda had to come up with a reason of what would further motivate Momo to train his best in becoming the Wano defender he said he wanted to be, even if it meant fighting against Yamato himself to prove it, then I think drama like that would certainly be a way to do it.
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So long after the fact, I can say that pulling the "I'm going to join your crew!" card with Yamato wasn't really that great of an idea. It created unreasonable expectations for the character - he'd have to get a striking flashback, a unique fighting style, some funny or endearing interactions with the crew, a greater struggle with Kaido and a bigger sense of catharsis when he finally went down.
Then of course none of that happened, because Yamato was a Wano side character, which is fine. But if he was to become a crewmember, I was expecting much more from week to week and in the end it became frustrating and a lot of the Yamato stuff ended up feeling like a waste of pages. In hindsight, though, there was nothing wrong with Yamato as a side character, in particular as Momo's mentor and "other half". That's the role he actually played in the story, and he worked well enough for that - aside from, again, all those pages wasted for the fire subplot that didn't really accomplish anything.Can't understand how people still expect him to join the crew, after the ship has already sailed and after the character didn't get any of the typical developments a crewmate gets. Even Jinbe's delayed joining made sense, since he had a higher standing than Luffy back in Fishman Island, but that's not the case for Yamato. And Jinbe got more of the typical treatment anyways, some of his scenes with Luffy in Marineford and Fishman Island were very heavy, he had a flashback and he interacted a lot with the other crewmates, particularly with Nami.
So Yamato should come back randomly one day, join the crew for no reason, being uber stronker than anyone else, already knowing Luffy's endgame without having sailed with him, and being instantly beloved by everyone without the audience getting to see how that bond formed? That's 100% Poochie territory.
Isn't it better if he just remains a side character that will probably play some important role (alongside Momo) in the grand finale? Oda knows better than to make the last crewmate a Poochie. He can still do amazing backstories, Kuma and Bonney just got one, why couldn't the last crewmember get it? -
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@black-leg-jex
He doesn't have conflict. He doesn't grow or change. He doesn't learn anything. He doesn't lose or gain anything. If there was a story about how he decided to become Oden, we certainly didn't see it.This is objectively not true. For starters, we know exactly why Yamato wanted to become Oden. When he was a child he was inspired by Oden due to his actions and everything Shinobu said, and it made Yamato infatuated with the Samurai Spirit, so much so that Yamato said he wanted to grow up to be like Oden and carry on his spirit. This pissed Kaidou off and he beat Yamato and put chains on him, but Yamato wouldn't give up on this idea and so he was eventually locked away. There he met the Daimyo and they taught him how to read Oden's journal, fed him and ultimately sacrificed themselves to save his life. All this only deepend Yamato's love for the samurai and it's also where he learnt about Oden's wish to open Wano, about the 9 Scabbards and the fated war in 20 years. Through all this, Yamato developed his first dream about fulfilling Oden's wish and saving Wano, embodying the spirit of Oden in anyway possible.
Over this 20 year period, Yamato started gaining the desire to leave Onigashima and Wano so he could go on adventures just like Oden did, and when he met Ace this desire only increased. But Yamato had spent all this time running from Kaidou and only fantazising about leaving, mainly because of the explosive shackles but also because he was relying on Ace to return and save him. It's only after he learnt of Ace's death that Yamato was emboldened to actually try and defeat Kaidou all on his own while he waited for Luffy to arrive instead.
But part of Yamato still didn't want to hate his father, despite all the abuse. He just knew that defeating Kaidou is the only way to save himself and Wano. It's only after Luffy confirms that the cuffs would have absolutely exploded and killed Yamato that he realised that Kaidou didn't care about him and so he decided to cut Kaidou off entirely. He fully dedicates himself to the Samurai, even being willing to die alongside them if they fail.
It's also Yamato's infatuation with the Samurai that keeps him in Wano in the end. He's aware that Momo and the others aren't strong enough to deal with any type of threat and believes if he leaves then the Samurai run the risk of just being captured again. Even if that delays Yamato's dream from coming true, he chooses to stay there until Momo or someone can get strong enough that Yamato isn't needed anymore. He realises he can't just leave, and while it's frustrating for us as readers it makes sense that he would come to this conclusion in-universe.
All of this is likely to have happened, but the problem is that we didn't see any of it. It's all implied. We didn't see Yamato deciding to become Oden. We just saw a very short chapter of him being abused as a kid. We didn't see him deciding to go to the sea. We just got a character whose arc was complete by the time he appeared and had no growth left to get. Yamato has an arc, but not in One Piece. And it's in One Piece that I want people to have arcs. All other strawhats have conflicts when they first appear, which are solved by interacting with Luffy and they have epiphanies and life changes. Yamato just exists, as some person who wants to go to the sea just because, because we didn't get to see him coming to that realization so we can't empathize with him. Heck even the stuff with him deciding to stay in Wano is off-screened. Oda wouldn't be arsed to show it.
There are other characters like Yamato who don't have conflicts to solve. I e. Alladdin. But those are minor characters. I don't need Alladdin to have characer development shown in-story because he only appears in half a dozen panels. Yamato on the other hand is a massive waste of panel time for someone who doesn't gain or lose or change or add anything to the story. You remove Yamato from Wano altogether and the changes you need to make are very small, provably just pick someone to hold off Kaido among the 20 or so strong fighters you have and that's it.
Also him realizing Kaido is evil when Luffy removes his shackle is fanfiction. He already knew his father was a jerk years before the manga started.
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Honestly, Yamato feels like some self-insert fanfic character. Appears suddenly in the middle of the arc with no setup and announces he will join the main cast. Has a very stylish appearance, a cool LGBT identity that everyone respects, including his evil dad. Is related to the main villain and uses his moves, but is also connected to the arc's lead mentor figure, and also to Ace. Knows Luffy's dream. Has a mystic devil fruit, which is cute but also badass.
I'm gonna make a guess and say someone close to Oda requested to have their fan character added and that's how we got Yamato. Probably one of Oda's daughters.
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@Deicide said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Honestly, when Yamato was talking about joining the crew in the second chapter after his introduction, I felt it was a huge red flag already.
First, because it was very unlike Oda's style. He likes to keep readers guessing until the very last moment.
Second, because it felt like a cheap attempt to make people care for the character. Instead of slowly building Yamato up with the usual drip-feeding of information, he front-loaded most of Yamato's story, and just telling, rather than showing, it. Then Oda used the next crewmate card to say "this character is important, he matters, so keep an eye on him".
@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Honestly, Yamato feels like some self-insert fanfic character. Appears suddenly in the middle of the arc with no setup and announces he will join the main cast. Has a very stylish appearance, a cool LGBT identity that everyone respects, including his evil dad. Is related to the main villain and uses his moves, but is also connected to the arc's lead mentor figure, and also to Ace. Knows Luffy's dream. Has a mystic devil fruit, which is cute but also badass.
I'm gonna make a guess and say someone close to Oda requested to have their fan character added and that's how we got Yamato. Probably one of Oda's daughters.
While I don't actually believe it is the case (or rather not want to) - remembering about the one editor that loved Carrot, I can't help but think the same, if not similar thing happened with Yamato.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
I'm gonna make a guess and say someone close to Oda requested to have their fan character added and that's how we got Yamato. Probably one of Oda's daughters.
I don't think so. We saw the concept art, and it's clear Oda struggled with Yamato. The only constant elements in Yamato's evolution were: daughter of Kaido, and companion to Momo.
At one point, Yamato had no gender issues and was clearly a "she". In one version, she bought into Kaido's propaganda and believed the Kouzuki were devils. In another, she was a 3-eyed martial artist. In one concept, she wants to become a samurai.
But in every incarnation it was always Yamato and Momo meeting and developing together.
Oda originally intended Yamato to meet Momo still in the mainland of Wano, way before the Onigashima raid. It points to Yamato being introduced in Act 1 or 2.
My guess is that Oda had to delay Yamato's introduction for Act 3, and other changes resulted from that. There would be less time to develop Yamato, so here's the next crewmate card to make people hype her. Oda wanted a big surprise for the character's introduction, so here's the gender issue by having people expect "Kaido's Son" instead.
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Editors might nudge Oda to give certain characters more screentime, but putting "I'm gonna join!" into their mouths over and over again?
Also lol at "Oda likes to keep readers guessing". Zoro, Usopp and Sanji were pretty straightforward but they don't count since they were very early on, right? Just look at Nami, I'm sure there was a lot of guessing if she was really gonna leave! ... Right!? Then Chopper... also straightforward, but also early, so doesn't count! There was a lot of guessing with Rob– nope, her joining was a surprise to everyone. But we readers were meant to guess in Water 7 with all the shipwrights, and especially Franky vs. Paulie! Just remember the discussions! ... Aaand then Franky got the flashback and the colorspread and wasn't delegated to the arc-specific ally fodder group. Now, Brook joining was debatable for sure! ... If you ignore the fact that he was asked to join within the very same chapter of his first appearance, a quirky skeleton and being the musician that Luffy has been looking for. But we can't have another swordsman! What, he's the one Laboon has been waiting for?! Fine. Jimbei though, I'll give you that one, just don't look at Brennen's well-thought out theory on why Jimbei's was being set up as the next crewmate.
So all in all, I think we see that yes, Oda likes to be unpredictable on who's going to join next. If you ignore all the outliers that make up the majority of the crew.
Never change, Nakama thread. Never change.
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@Dragon-D-Luffy said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Also him realizing Kaido is evil when Luffy removes his shackle is fanfiction. He already knew his father was a jerk years before the manga started.
Nah, Yamato has a whole line to Luffy about how he doesn't believe that Kaidou would actually be so evil to kill his own son but him being unsure about this is why he's been hesitant to attempt an escape before now. And then it's only after the cuffs come off that we see Yamato crying over the fact his dad did intend to kill him and it's only then that we get Yamato denouncing his father and cutting all ties with him. He knew his father was a jerk but a part of Yamato still wanted to believe that Kaidou cared about him, but that scene shows otherwise.
On the topic of everything else, yeah all the Straw Hats have a conflict when they meet Luffy but so did Yamato. He had his freedom stolen by kaidou and had literal chains on him. And it's Luffy that freed and liberated Yamato. Reaching out to Luffy and interacting with him is what saved Yamato.
It's the exact same as it was for Jinbei and Zoro when they first met Luffy. Jinbei's conflict was that he was imprisoned in Impel Down and meeting Luffy freed him. Zoro's conflict was that he was imprisoned by Morgan and meeting Luffy freed him. As for any epiphanies the Straw Hats have, some of them have those in the arcs where they meet Luffy, like Sanji and Usopp, but others take several arcs to have their epiphines, like Robin and Nami. But they joined before they got those epiphines so I don't say why Yamato has to be different.
I think claiming that you can't empathize with Yamato is more of a you problem than a story issue. Yamato's conflict falls in line with one of the core themes of the entire series, that people should be free, and I think it's pretty clear that Oda wants us as readers to empathise with Yamato due to the abuse he suffered and the isolation he has gone through - all stuff that the manga absolutely did show us (and the anime greatly expanded upon).
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@Coookie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Now, Brook joining was debatable for sure! ... If you ignore the fact that he was asked to join within the very same chapter of his first appearance, a quirky skeleton and being the musician that Luffy has been looking for.
This is truly it, isn't it?
People claim Yamato declaring they want to join in their introduction is a red herring but Brook being asked to join in his wasn't and in fact was an obvious sign that he would join. The duality of the Nakama thread.
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I started reading when Brook was already in, but what really sells him in Thriller Bark, more than Luffy asking him to join, is everything that comes after.
One full chapter of bonding with the crew while some mysteries about his past and motivations still linger. Him saving Franky and Robin and impressing them with his backstory, which at that point is still under wraps. Then the Laboon twist, and the recovery of Brook's shadow becoming one of the main reasons Luffy fought Moria for, with Zoro even commenting that now they have to recover one more shadow. The afro scene! The fact that in the fight against Oars he was already doing team moves with the crew. Then, his flashback which is not only moving but also very unique still 55 volumes later, culminating in a crying scene (THAT is what every single crewmate has actually gotten).
And last but not least, Brook of course has that striking design (not that Yamato's is bad but it's not a gentleman skeleton with an afro and a yohoho). All this from Vol. 45 to 50.
Meanwhile in the same amount of chapters Yamato speaks to Luffy like twice and to Franky for one panel. There's no twists or mysteries to his story, and I wouldn't rank his half-a-chapter long flashback among the best of the series. The emotional center of the arc still lies very clearly in Momo with a side of Kin'emon....and then of course, Brook joined while Yamato didn't.
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@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Coookie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Now, Brook joining was debatable for sure! ... If you ignore the fact that he was asked to join within the very same chapter of his first appearance, a quirky skeleton and being the musician that Luffy has been looking for.
This is truly it, isn't it?
People claim Yamato declaring they want to join in their introduction is a red herring but Brook being asked to join in his wasn't and in fact was an obvious sign that he would join. The duality of the Nakama thread.
Yeah, it’s funny how people accuse Yamato of being a “fanfiction character” because of appearance and moved too fast with joining. Even though Brook said yes to joining Luffy right away and is similar to Jack Skellington from The Nightmare Before Christmas, and also dresses up in rockstar outfits.
So, where are those people calling Brook a fanfiction character? lol
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@Zanze well said.
I remember Thriller Bark weekly discussions. It was Brook’s surprising connection to Laboon that sold him as a crewmate to me.
Luffy asking people to join? He did it to Kin’emon’s legs, Zombie Tree, Gaimon…
It’s bizarre to see people still arguing Yamato wanting to join the crew wasn’t a red hering this late…
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I wasn't here for weekly Thriller Bark discussion but I get the impressions that prior to the Laboon connection @Deicide, you were also saying that Luffy asking Brook to join was a red herring.
And Yamato asking to join clearly isn't a red herring in the grand scheme of things because it's pretty evident that Yamato WILL join the Straw Hats by the end of it, even if we only see it in the epilogue (the same goes for Tama). That's not what most people who advocate for Yamato joining want obviously, because it means very little if we don't get to see him hang out with them, but Yamato still joined just as Oda said he would.
@Zanze said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
I started reading when Brook was already in, but what really sells him in Thriller Bark, more than Luffy asking him to join, is everything that comes after.
One full chapter of bonding with the crew while some mysteries about his past and motivations still linger. Him saving Franky and Robin and impressing them with his backstory, which at that point is still under wraps. Then the Laboon twist, and the recovery of Brook's shadow becoming one of the main reasons Luffy fought Moria for, with Zoro even commenting that now they have to recover one more shadow. The afro scene! The fact that in the fight against Oars he was already doing team moves with the crew. Then, his flashback which is not only moving but also very unique still 55 volumes later, culminating in a crying scene (THAT is what every single crewmate has actually gotten).
And last but not least, Brook of course has that striking design (not that Yamato's is bad but it's not a gentleman skeleton with an afro and a yohoho). All this from Vol. 45 to 50.
Meanwhile in the same amount of chapters Yamato speaks to Luffy like twice and to Franky for one panel. There's no twists or mysteries to his story, and I wouldn't rank his half-a-chapter long flashback among the best of the series. The emotional center of the arc still lies very clearly in Momo with a side of Kin'emon....and then of course, Brook joined while Yamato didn't.
Well yeah, my point wasn't to compare both of Brook and Yamato's situation, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the red herring argument. Yamato suffers from Wano's bloat which is an issue Brook didn't have with Thriller Bark and while both do have an existing connection with a friend of the Straw Hats (Laboon for Brook, Ace for Yamato) the former is far more impactful because of how little focus Laboon actually had and how long it was between his introduction and Thriller Bark.
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Yeah, I'm not understanding where this "Oda keeps us guessing" and "Red Herrings" when it comes to nakama is coming from. Robin is the only one I would consider a surprise out of the nine and I don't subscribe to the idea that Oda is placing characters in arcs to fuel nakama discussion. Most of the time characters in a story are just characters in a story. Yamato is the only one where Oda truly tried to fool the reader, as it stands now, though technically he did join.
As far as Yamato not having a character arc, both Nami and Robin joined without getting a character arc until later. Robin joined without anything checked off. Certain events needed to happen before Oda could tell that story and who's to say that's not the case for Yamato. Sorry, Oda doesn't work on your timetable and he's not sitting at home thinking, "Welp, I didn't do a thing in Wano so I have to scrap Yamato and come up with a new character to be the last SH." Now I have no idea if Yamato is joining or not and I'm not the type of person to put all his money on one character and ride it to the end. As long as there is an ancient weapon sitting under Wano, I don't think it's a stretch for people to think there is a chance.
It's certainly isn't more of stretch than Viva abandoning Alabasta, Kuma leaving Bonney, Smoker quitting the Marines, or Boa leaving Amazon Lily to join the crew. I get we hope/think certain characters will join but at the end of the day only one character was possibly created to be the last crew member and the rest never really had a chance.
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@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Yeah, I'm not understanding where this "Oda keeps us guessing" and "Red Herrings" when it comes to nakama is coming from. Robin is the only one I would consider a surprise out of the nine and I don't subscribe to the idea that Oda is placing characters in arcs to fuel nakama discussion. Most of the time characters in a story are just characters in a story. Yamato is the only one where Oda truly tried to fool the reader, as it stand now, though technically he did join.
As far as Yamato not having a character arc, both Nami and Robin joined without getting a character arc until later. Robin joined without anything checked off. Certain events needed to happen before Oda could tell that story and who's to say that's not the case for Yamato. Sorry, Oda doesn't work on your timetable and he's not sitting at home thinking, "Welp, I didn't do a thing in Wano so I have to scrap Yamato and come up with a new character to be the last SH." Now I have no idea if Yamato is joining or not and I'm not the type of person to put all his money on one character and ride it to the end. As long as there is an ancient weapon sitting under Wano, I don't think it's a stretch for people to think there is a chance.
It's certainly isn't more of stretch than Viva abandoning Alabasta, Kuma leaving Bonney, Smoker quitting the Marines, or Boa leaving Amazon Lily to join the crew. I get we hope/think certain characters will join but at the end of the day only one character was possibly created to be the last crew member and the rest never really had a chance.
To give "sketchy" joinings like Robin's joining, Brook's joining, or Jinbe's joining a free pass while Yamato gets criticism after criticism with no free pass willingness at all just doesn't seem totally right to me somehow.
Oda could have explained Nojiko in Orange Town when Nami met Luffy, or Ohara in Alabasta when Robin joined Luffy, but he didn't.
Instead he did things like save more focus on Robin for later, possibly because it would have taken focus away from Vivi's story in Alabasta and such.
Oda didn't even focus on Sanji's parents and Germa until much later in the story either.
So if Oda didn't elaborate on things like Yamato's mom in Wano or more of Yamato's feelings, then that might also fall into the same category of saving things for later, or otherwise it might have taken focus away from Momo's story, since Wano was pretty much Momo's arc in the long run, since he's the one who went through the most change and emotional conflict in that arc.
Heck, even in this final saga, Oda still took the time to make developments like Vivi's Will of D. heritage and Bonney's link with Kuma and Nika, the latter having just received an 8-chapter flashback.
So I feel good in thinking how Oda is still willing to take his time on further developing past characters whenever he wants. He could even be planning on giving Yamato more development in the next cover story for all we know.
It might be more to Yamato's benefit since Wano during downtime is prob a more appropriate structure to develop Yamato in than during the war in Wano, because so many things were happening while Kaido was standing, that it prob would have made it all the harder for Oda to reveal any more at the time than he did.
So as always, I look forward to what Oda has in store. :)
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@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Well yeah, my point wasn't to compare both of Brook and Yamato's situation, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of the red herring argument. Yamato suffers from Wano's bloat which is an issue Brook didn't have with Thriller Bark and while both do have an existing connection with a friend of the Straw Hats (Laboon for Brook, Ace for Yamato) the former is far more impactful because of how little focus Laboon actually had and how long it was between his introduction and Thriller Bark.
Eh, you can only tell what was a red herring and what wasn't with hindsight. I didn't think Yamato had "the sauce" to become a main character, but only because his role in Onigashima wasn't really building up to that. From his introduction alone it could have gone either way.
But I'm sure Oda could have developed him more if he was a priority. Law got a ton of focus during Dressrosa, which was also a very crowded arc, and Yamato had plenty of screen time anyways, it's just that Oda didn't do much with it... Which I also didn't like, because future crewmember or not, Yamato's past with Kaido was very interesting and it feels like it all kinda got glossed over. Like a lot things Kaido, in fact. Ah well.@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
As far as Yamato not having a character arc, both Nami and Robin joined without getting a character arc until later. Robin joined without anything checked off. Certain events needed to happen before Oda could tell that story and who's to say that's not the case for Yamato. Sorry, Oda doesn't work on your timetable and he's not sitting at home thinking, "Welp, I didn't do a thing in Wano so I have to scrap Yamato and come up with a new character to be the last SH."
In principle, sure, but I couldn't see this working in Yamato's case. He never left Onigashima in his whole life iirc, and the man responsible for all his pain and suffering was Kaido, the arc villain and his very own father. You'd think that would be the arc where Yamato gets the most amount of focus. Like, he could find his Hogback later, but his Wapol was Kaido.
Instead of being front and center of the struggle against Kaido, Yamato got more or less relegated to playing second fiddle to Momo. He wasn't even mentioned by Luffy when he was gathering his forces before the final Gear 5, and he even named Pedro there.I'm not saying that the character is worthless or is never going to get any other important role in the future (in fact it's pretty clear that he will), just that he never got the amount of development that's usually reserved to crewmembers, and the ship has sailed without him.
I'm pretty sure that whatever happens with Pluton will involve both him and Momo (and hopefully my boy Kin) because that's more or less what the story has been setting up, then of course I could be wrong.And also, Vivi has already abandoned Alabasta. Not willingly, of course... but if I had to bet on a pseudo-crewmember becoming very, very important it would be her.
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Actually, seeing as how Zoro, Nami, Sanji, and most of the others rejected Luffy after they met, Yamato rejecting Luffy would fit into that as well. It’s just that whereas the others weren’t planning on joining him, Yamato was basically planning on joining him, and yet still rejected him. That would def make Yamato more unique in the case.
In addition to Usopp and Robin leaving the crew, Yamato would def fit into that “pattern” of them rejecting Luffy in some way or opposing him in some way.
And Yamato only really planned to join Luffy because he was the brother of Ace, who died, so it could almost be as if Yamato was only planning on joining him because he was Ace’s brother and presumably the person Oden hyped up in the journal.
In that case I’m rather glad Yamato didn’t join under those circumstances. I’d much rather she join because she’d genuinely want to be with him for him, while accomplishing a grander purpose of her own, not joining him just for the sake of partying with Ace’s brother at sea.
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Yamato apologists embarrassing themselves again lol. Her introduction is awkful, her character is awful, and she brings the arc down with her sole existence and actions. That aside, when she inevitably joins the crew, perhaps the landing won't be TOO cringy. That is all we can hope for.
To answer the earlier Hachinosu discussion - the navy and/or WG won't risk warring with BB over one simple geezer, ironic how it'll reflect his earlier philosophy he taught Koby and the others, no point in trying to save the elderly if you truly are out of options to save anyone and everyone. MAYBE they'd go there if a big shot in his prime (Akainu) was captured. Someone on Akainu's caliber seems to be the only option the WG'd ever consider to save, because they didn't move for a big hero like Koby, and they certainly won't for Garp either.
That's the whole point of SWORD tho. Koby will disassociate himself from the marines (at least temporarily) because he and the others care about saving Garp. Normally, going to face the BB armada alone would be a suicide mission for him and Grus and whatnot, but good thing Katakuri and possibly Luffy or Shanks will be all up in Hachinosu's face too. Many people have a bone to pick with BB, fortunately, so it doesn't really matter that Fujitora or Greenbull never would have been bothered with the issue. One will handle Cross Guild and the other has to deal with Marco.
Smoker is unlikely to be involved in all those conflicts, he's only gonna do his own thing as always, and said own thing ALWAYS has to do with Luffy so watch him appear in Elbaf.
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@Gear-4-Sauce said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Yamato apologists embarrassing themselves again lol. Her introduction is awkful, her character is awful, and she brings the arc down with her sole existence and actions.
Well, respectably taking your criticisms and observations into account, and assuming you're willing to humor me, what would you say would have to be done in order for things to be less "awkful"?
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Just hoping she chills and drops the Oden stupidity. She's actually a fun and/or cool character in the rare moments where that silliness isn't a thing.
There's no going back in time and changing Onigashima for the better.
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Man, if only Zoro wouldn't get lost all the time. He's a much cooler character in all other instances, but personal flaws just bring it down.
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@Gear-4-Sauce said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Just hoping she chills and drops the Oden stupidity. She's actually a fun and/or cool character in the rare moments where that silliness isn't a thing.
There's no going back in time and changing Onigashima for the better.
I don't think there was really any good set-up for Yamato to "drop the Oden stupidity" during the Onigashima war.
The only ones actively objecting with Yamato's Oden stupidity was Kaido and his lackies, and Yamato disliked all of them anyway, so it's understandable she wasn't swayed by them.
Luffy objected at first saying "Everyone loves Oden. You can't be him." but then moved on to focus on defeating Kaido.
Now that the war is over and the dust has settled though, Yamato's downtime might give her better opportunity to better focus on reassessing herself alongside Momo, who's aiming to actually surpass Oden instead of being exactly like him.
It's actually a rather interesting set-up. Putting a character who wants to be like Oden and a character who's wanting to surpass Oden together def has potential and I can see a lot of interesting character moments coming from this.
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@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Coookie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Now, Brook joining was debatable for sure! ... If you ignore the fact that he was asked to join within the very same chapter of his first appearance, a quirky skeleton and being the musician that Luffy has been looking for.
This is truly it, isn't it?
People claim Yamato declaring they want to join in their introduction is a red herring but Brook being asked to join in his wasn't and in fact was an obvious sign that he would join. The duality of the Nakama thread.
He said no though the chapter after because of his obligations with his shadow and because of Laboon. There was something for Brook to overcome his joining.
Originally Posted by Nightwing
Stay focused, cause right now you have a decision to make. Are you a man perpetually looking back at what he’s lost, or a man looking forward, to what he might become?
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@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
I wasn't here for weekly Thriller Bark discussion but I get the impressions that prior to the Laboon connection @Deicide, you were also saying that Luffy asking Brook to join was a red herring.
Memories can be tricky, they are far from trustworthy.
However, one needs to consider that opinions change as more info becomes available. What I expect after reading Ch 1103 may change once Ch 1104 brings new developments to consider.
For instance, I started hating Hancock, and now she's my favorite character. And if you search enough you can find posts of me shooting down Hancock as a candidate at the end of Amazon Lily, because I only started considering it after seeing her comedic potential with Magellan, Hannyabal and Momonga in Impel Down.
What I remember is that I became favorable to Brook joining way faster than to Franky or Jinbe, both of which I carried doubts way longer.
What you may be thinking of is me probably saying something like "Calm down, Luffy asking him may be a red hering, let's wait a bit" to those who jumped on the bandwagon too early.
Brook then disappeared for most of early Thriller Bark, only reappearing when Robin and Franky, the last strong crewmates standing, were about to be captured by that spider-zombie. It was then that I started warming up to Brook. But it was his connection to Laboon that made me consider he had a higher chance of joining than not.
I remember arguing for Brook in these forums, against others who pointed out that Brook was being saved by Zoro or that once he get his shadow back he'd sail back for Laboon.
Brook had too much in his favor: quirky, exotic, musician (Luffy wanted one since Chapter 2!), connection to someone Luffy made a promise to see again, time and opportunity to bond with other crewmates (Franky, Robin, Zoro, Sanji...), fought alongside the crew...
I can be as stubborn as anyone else, but when I stood my ground doubting Yamato's chances it wasn't just out of unwillingness to change opinion, it was because I saw the story not moving Yamato into becoming a crewmate. What I saw was a character with a very basic backstory, that was bonding with Momonosuke over the crew, and too thematically bound to Wano (up to being its "Guardian Deity").
Also, one needs to mind that I never went "Yamato wanting to join is a red hering", but "Yamato wanting to join may be a red hering" at first, just like with Brook. As things evolved, that impression just got stronger, but only now, with Wano over, I can say for sure that it was a red hering. Oda was setting up expectations he wasn't going to fulfill.
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@Gizmo said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@black-leg-jex said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Coookie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Now, Brook joining was debatable for sure! ... If you ignore the fact that he was asked to join within the very same chapter of his first appearance, a quirky skeleton and being the musician that Luffy has been looking for.
This is truly it, isn't it?
People claim Yamato declaring they want to join in their introduction is a red herring but Brook being asked to join in his wasn't and in fact was an obvious sign that he would join. The duality of the Nakama thread.
He said no though the chapter after because of his obligations with his shadow and because of Laboon. There was something for Brook to overcome his joining.
Brook also had someone sentimental he had to leave behind in the form of Laboon (and maybe Crocus). If Yamato would have left in 1057, then there’s nobody she would have really had to give a sentimental goodbye to since she didn’t really know anyone on that sort of level.
Even Robin has someone to return to from her past given how Saul is alive.
Brook also turned down the opportunity to go back back to Laboon immediately after Thriller Bark. Another example of him overcoming his own desire in favor of the rest of the crew moving forward.
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That is the whole point. Lack of setup means she might not even develop, and so she will continue to be one-note, with one of the most unfunny gimmicks ever.
At least it was topical back in Wano, when she was introduced while everyone and their grandma - including the big bad himself, Kaido - had Oden living rent-free in their heads. The Oden lore, the Wano lore etc. it was all fresh in our minds, especially since Onigashima came right after the dedicated Oden flashback.
When she joins at, say, Elbaf, who will care about the Oden schtick? Nobody. No straw hat knew the guy. There is maybe Shanks who will just find her to be an absolute weirdo (though he'll quickly laugh it off) who impersonates one of his deceased childhood friends.
I'm sure in-universe, nobody bats an eye after the first few times. But for us weekly readers? Having to put up with stupidity and nonsense all the time is jarring.
You can tell how much of a non-character she is because nobody ever has discourse (let alone has any normal conversation) about her, that's not a whole debate gender lmao. And you know that kind of debate isn't exclusive to Yamato or One Piece, both sides of the argument have their agenda, this poor Oden fanatic is just being used as a tool to fuel either side.
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@Gear-4-Sauce said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
You can tell how much of a non-character she is because nobody ever has discourse (let alone has any normal conversation) about her, that's not a whole debate gender lmao. And you know that kind of debate isn't exclusive to Yamato or One Piece, both sides of the argument have their agenda, this poor Oden fanatic is just being used as a tool to fuel either side.
That’s the thing, now that she’s in Wano with someone like Momo, will Yamato continue to not receive any discourse?
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@Gizmo said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
He said no though the chapter after because of his obligations with his shadow and because of Laboon. There was something for Brook to overcome his joining.
Yeah, it's weird that no other Straw Hat had personal issues that kept them from chasing their dreams unless some random guy shows up and helps them overcome it.
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Also, I felt to mention again how I thank Oda for potentially giving Vivi a tangible goal to act on as a Straw Hat: looking the answers behind her Will of D. heritage and Nefertari D. Lily
That would def develop Vivi beyond someone sailing with Luffy just to party with him. So yeah, I thank Oda for making that development for her.
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The Oden-shtick is basically a non-point imo. We know that Yamato goes by both Yamato and Oden and it's not like anyone really acknowledges the Oden part. Everyone calls him Yamato. It's an unfunny gag really, but Oda does that with his crew (just look at Brook and his panty jokes).
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Your reasoning is sound about Yamato and Kaido, but your assuming that's the only possible scenario when Oda could have something else in mind for his character arc. We simply don't know. All we know is we're going back there at some point because Oda left Pluton in Wano. The stuff about Luffy mentioning names is a nonfactor for me.
That being said, I don't think anyone should be betting money on Yamato joining either. Personally, I don't think anyone should be betting on a particular character joining above all others. Wano should be a lesson for everyone that your speculation is most likely not Oda's intention and sometimes characters are simply just characters and not SHs or meant to be teased as SHs.
If you don't think Yamato is the final crew member, that's fine. However, I don't see the sense in saying Oda's words are set in stone for one character and yet they get handwaved for other characters. That's not directed towards you, I'm saying this in general. Saying one character can't join for reasons then that same person jumps through hoops to justify another character joining is just crazy to me.
Also, when I say abandon I mean abdicate her throne, which she hasn't done and would have to do to go from honorary to full-time crew member. Nobody is doubting she is going to get a major role in the story, but there are other major roles that are not crew member related.
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@Coookie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Gizmo said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
He said no though the chapter after because of his obligations with his shadow and because of Laboon. There was something for Brook to overcome his joining.
Yeah, it's weird that no other Straw Hat had personal issues that kept them from chasing their dreams unless some random guy shows up and helps them overcome it.
that was to show Yamato didn’t have that. That was the comparison between Yamato and the others. Yamato was willing to join the crew straight from the jump with nothing holding him back. The others did by refusing initially with Luffy winning them over. There wasn’t an arc that Yamato went through when joining the crew.
But then there’s Usopp and Robin and then I remember arguing in this thread is a doomed process.
Originally Posted by Nightwing
Stay focused, cause right now you have a decision to make. Are you a man perpetually looking back at what he’s lost, or a man looking forward, to what he might become?
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@Gizmo said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
that was to show Yamato didn’t have that. That was the comparison between Yamato and the others. Yamato was willing to join the crew straight from the jump with nothing holding him back. The others did by refusing initially with Luffy winning them over. There wasn’t an arc that Yamato went through when joining the crew.
But then there’s Usopp and Robin and then I remember arguing in this thread is a doomed process.
Yeah, nothing was holding Yamato back from setting out and chasing his dream. No exploding handcuffs, no father that repeatedly beat him into submission, no threat to the country he wants to be safe.
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@Zin-Magala I see. To be fair I don't think Vivi is joining either, I just think she's going to play the most important role and to get the most emotional reunion with the crew out of all the pseudo-crewmembers in the grand finale.
Actually, I'm a next crewmate atheist.
It's just been Luffy to Brook for such a long time, Jinbe works because he's also been around since forever and he already went through quite a few big story arcs as basically a crewmate anyways. I can't see any entirely new character join this late in the game and be convincing as a part of the group. In fact, I probably shouldn't even be posting in this thread. Crew's full! -
"No one else joining" is a perfectly fine stance to take. I have my doubts about another crew member as well. I do hope there is another one but I'm not sure. I've given myself a hard cut off to keep myself from continuing to go down this rabbit hole. For now I'm going to continue to participate in the discussion and see where Oda takes us.
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@Gizmo said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Coookie said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
@Gizmo said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
He said no though the chapter after because of his obligations with his shadow and because of Laboon. There was something for Brook to overcome his joining.
that was to show Yamato didn’t have that. That was the comparison between Yamato and the others. Yamato was willing to join the crew straight from the jump with nothing holding him back. The others did by refusing initially with Luffy winning them over. There wasn’t an arc that Yamato went through when joining the crew.
Yeah, I agree nothing was holding Yamato back, like how the restaurant held Sanji back or how Water 7 held Franky back.
But now that Yamato has rejected Luffy in favor of helping Momo at Wano, maybe it's possible Wano is now holding Yamato back, maybe it's possible that it isn't.
The Straw Hats from Zoro and Jinbe, for one reason or another, felt that they had a reason to say "no" to Luffy and reject him in some way or oppose him in some way, and now Yamato felt she had a reason to say no to him and reject him, just as the others had in the past.
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You still don't understand.
I'm not saying Yamato getting a character arc is a prerequisite for him to join the SHs. I don't care about that anymore.
I'm saying him getting a character arc is a requirement for him not to be one of the worst characters in the entire manga, and one of Oda's biggest failures as a writer.
Burder of proof is still on oda to show that he did not waste my time my introducing Yamato into the story.
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Man, it all would have been so much simpler if Jinbe the Warlord and "Saigo" the fishman helmsman weren't likely combined into one character*. We would have gotten the full crew just before departing for the New World with a huge party to cap it off, with 5 from the East Blue and 5 from the Grand Line, you can have the SHs face actual navigation challenges early on so the helmsman position doesn't need a Green Room asspull, the expectations regarding SHs bonding with each arc's characters would have tempered...
Of course Oda and the editors and Shueisha would have lost all that sweet constant discussion about who's joining next that materializes into online fandom wars, merchandising and such, but oh how better it would have been.
*speculation obviously
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@Logia said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
While I don't actually believe it is the case (or rather not want to) - remembering about the one editor that loved Carrot, I can't help but think the same, if not similar thing happened with Yamato.
Speaking of Carrot, I felt to bring up again this dialogue from the extra anime episode.
I assume a lot of people are yelling "non-canon" and all that, and that's fair.
But that said, I think it warrants the question: if it's impossible for Carrot to have willingly changed her mind after thinking over the offer to look over Zou, then in that respect, what should we assume happened in Carrot's thought process that would have led her to go to Zou instead of the Straw Hats then?
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You’re right, the burden of proof is on Oda so you can either continue to think he deliberately wasted your time or give him the benefit of the doubt. I was frustrated by Wano’s ending too and felt my time was wasted. It’s been over year now and I choose to hear Oda out and let him tell his story.
I don’t think there being more to Yamato’s story is an unreasonable take and when we go back, we’ll see if it was all worth it or not.
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@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
You’re right, the burden of proof is on Oda so you can either continue to think he deliberately wasted your time or give him the benefit of the doubt. I was frustrated by Wano’s ending too and felt my time was wasted. It’s been over year now and I choose to hear Oda out and let him tell his story.
I don’t think there being more to Yamato’s story is an unreasonable take and when we go back, we’ll see if it was all worth it or not.
I don’t think I can really ever understand why exactly people felt their time was wasted with Yamato given how she did well in the role she was given at the time of protecting Momo and stalling Kaido for Luffy. Yamato’s bonding with Momo was also setting her up with a family surrogate she never really had, and the further bonding in Wano with others will give her an entire family she’ll feel sentimental towards and thus make Wano a more sentimental place, as opposed to one she just wants to escape from. So her going from demanding Luffy take her sailing for being friends with Ace’s brother to being willing to delay that to help Momo is good character progression for her.
Do I wish we had more focus on her feelings, sure. Do I feel Oda was trying to waste our time and make us feel stupid, no.
Given how the main focus of the Wano arc was on Momo and his rise to becoming a shogun, then as far as that went, it did all it needed to do, and any further developments are best saved for later. For as much as I could wish things played out differently, I can understand where Oda is coming from.
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@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
You’re right, the burden of proof is on Oda so you can either continue to think he deliberately wasted your time or give him the benefit of the doubt. I was frustrated by Wano’s ending too and felt my time was wasted. It’s been over year now and I choose to hear Oda out and let him tell his story.
I don’t think there being more to Yamato’s story is an unreasonable take and when we go back, we’ll see if it was all worth it or not.
Occam's Razor is Oda simply dropped the ball and that's about it. Yamato might appear when the other 200 allies appear in the final war though, I suppose.
I don't mind it that much considering I love 99% of OP. For every great story, there is a Yamato.
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I feel Yamato will have some important moment later, but the next crewmate tease was just a cheap trick to make people care for him after his introduction in an arc too bloated to give him proper attention.
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Very real possibility, I'm afraid. It's better to focus on other things for now.
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@Zin-Magala said in Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 10 - Egghead):
Very real possibility, I'm afraid. It's better to focus on other things for now.
Well we could talk more about Bonney, who's invested in Nika, and Vivi, who was recently revealed to have Will of D. heritage and linked with potentially one of the most important Void Century figures, Nefertari D. Lily, which I've previously brought up. Yet it seems quite a number of others are still interested enough to bring up Yamato despite not being in the current arc.
I only really bring her up since others have, since forums are for discussion after all. But it makes me wonder, that if Oda had things play out the way he did to motivate people to still remember her and bring her up despite not being in Egghead. If Yamato was really just another Shirahoshi or Rebecca, then Yamato would only get as much mention as they do, but that doesn't quite seem to be the case.
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So Kuma got his Whitebeard moment, but now he can’t move. I wonder where Kuma and Bonney will go from here.
