Volume 86 Predictions/Discussion
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I don't know how old she was in that second bounty poster, but I guess she was still a kid… Her puberty must have been insane. I think she would've been way cooler if she had always looked more like she does now/as a child!
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Different Women designs? Smoothie, compote, galette, amande, brulee… they clearly look all like Nami and Robin.
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Yep, which is one of the reasons I like the BMP. Many new different female characters
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Different Women designs? Smoothie, compote, galette, amande, brulee… they clearly look all like Nami and Robin.
And yet take notice of how the most prominent female Big Mom Pirate who isn't the captain, Pudding, looks like Nami with a third eye.
Oda only seems to break out of his trend of Nami/Robin clones when showcasing young women if they have a notable presence in an island's supporting cast like on Amazon Lily. There are obviously exceptions, but it's clear what Oda favors when having major female characters plot-wise.
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Hm… My friend told me some sbs info, translated from 2ch..
It seems that Mochi Mochi no Mi changes from Logia to Paramecia in the Volume. I guess Katakuri's DF has been awakened?There is a cat mink in Hawkins Pirates.
There are Snakeneck Tribe in Totland (yes, we saw many of them). Big Mom also has 2 twin Snakeneck son and daugter, named Mascarpone and Joscarpon (must be these 2: https://i.imgur.com/RiMO35B.png)
Thanks for the infos:happy:
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28 years old Big Mom is decently hot. I bet that was the height of her baby making period. People wanted to hump her constantly and she was more than happy to oblige. As why she looked like that Steussen might have help a makeover to help get more willing partners. Long story short it was all the sex.
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@Count:
And yet take notice of how the most prominent female Big Mom Pirate who isn't the captain, Pudding, looks like Nami with a third eye.
Oda only seems to break out of his trend of Nami/Robin clones when showcasing young women if they have a notable presence in an island's supporting cast like on Amazon Lily. There are obviously exceptions, but it's clear what Oda favors when having major female characters plot-wise.
Yeah but i wouldnt buy Sanji to fall in love with someone wo isnt looking lik nami…
Its like saying that the Zorro Face/Sixpack guy is also in every arc...
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Yeah but i wouldnt buy Sanji to fall in love with someone wo isnt looking lik nami…
Its like saying that the Zorro Face/Sixpack guy is also in every arc...
But are there any major male characters that have Zoro's face as much as Nami or Robin's? Oda creates so many designs that he is bound to repeat certain faces. That's common sense. However, he loves to experiment with male character proportions and sizes. Repeated faces are not the norm for male characters.
With females, outside this arc and Amazon Lily… it's a lot more recurrent for major female characters that are supposed to look young/beautiful to look the same compared to Nami or Robin's faces and hourglass figures. Even though there are all sorts of ways you can portray that. Tashigi, Hancock, Pudding, Violet, Rebecca, Shirahoshi, Vivi, Kalifa, Miss Valentine's Day, Monet, Baby-5, Alvida post-Devil Fruit, Reiju, along with younger versions of Tsuru, Dadan, and Kokoro.
You see where the problem is coming from here? And then this connects to other things relating to female portrayal. Like there being no major female arc villains besides Alvida and Big Mom (and Big Mom not even being defeated this arc lol), who just happen to look monstrous and not "beautiful". Or how Nami only fights female characters while Robin has barely gotten any fights at all (although her Devil Fruit is freaking broken). Or how "beautiful" female characters either get relegated to fighting fodder and briefly clashing with characters, get defeated with in quick one-hits or psychological weakness, and can only challenge male characters if they have hax powers that do not rely on physical strength. Or that stupid gag Oda loves doing where only guys get amazed when they hear of cool things like ninjas and robots while female characters like Nami and Robin are completely indifferent (not that there aren't certain women who don't care about that stuff, but these jokes always highlight a shallow gender divide). Or... Smoothie in general lol.
Also, Sanji "loves" Robin as much as he does Nami. He "loves" all women. He's a chivalric pervert like that. People can prefer certain types, sure, but that doesn't mean they are only interested in just one type of face/body.
Compare this:
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!To this:
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And just for the fun of it, try to see how many characters you can identify without checking other sources.
This SBS about Big Mom is small in the grand scheme of things, but only adds to how annoying female portrayal can be in this manga lol.
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Digital colored manga is life when it comes to this. Color is pretty important in character design. It really helps to appreciate the differences between some female characters.
I mean Rebecca looking like Nami isn't as obvious when you can't see their hair color. -
I have seen this pictures a dozen times and always with the same arguments… half or more of them are side characters, i have named you alone in this arc enough unique looking Womens... you can say that Oda likes to make the "princess" look like a model and Nami and Robin, but other its just ridiculous to say he hasnt different designs...
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Digital colored manga is life when it comes to this. Color is pretty important in character design. It really helps to appreciate the differences between some female characters.
I mean Rebecca looking like Nami isn't as obvious when you can't see their hair color.Different hair, color, and attire should not be enough to distinguish and appreciate character designs. That is a superbly mediocre bar to set when creating designs, especially in a series as diverse and surreal as One Piece. And when we're reading this series as a black and white manga, which Oda should take into note as a mangaka. People can actually get confused between Robin and Violet in Dressrosa. Hell, I got confused between Pudding and Nami once during the early chapters of Totland lol.
I have seen this pictures a dozen times and always with the same arguments… half or more of them are side characters, i have named you alone in this arc enough unique looking Womens... you can say that Oda likes to make the "princess" look like a model and Nami and Robin, but other its just ridiculous to say he hasnt different designs...
They are not side characters in their respective arcs though. They are some of the most prominent named characters in those arcs. And when Nami and Robin themselves are main characters, there should be higher standards when diversifying females. We're not saying that Oda doesn't EVER draw different female designs. We're saying that he copy and pastes Nami and Robin's faces and figures way too much compared to how differently most of his male characters can look on a consistent arc-to-arc basis.
The fact that your argument hinges on pointing out this arc and this arc only just goes to show how Oda's problem is unveiled at the forefront when the supporting cast of an arc only has a few women compared to a bunch of them like in Totland and Amazon Lily. Which affirms that Oda only likes to change up designs for young women when he can't get away with making a whole antagonist crowd of Nami and Robin faces without being called out on it.
Oda even said that once in an interview that when he used to work as an assistant, one of his greatest moments of shame is when he drew most or all of an entire crowd with the same type of face. That only goes to show that crowds of female characters are the only point that really forces him to go for female design diversity.
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@Count:
Different hair, color, and attire should not be enough to distinguish and appreciate character designs. That is a superbly mediocre bar to set when creating designs, especially in a series as diverse and surreal as One Piece.
It is not!
No matter the talent of the artist there is an unconscious bias when drawing the most difficult part of a character : the face. A bias that ironically can become all the more noticeable after years of practice. It is part of an artist touch. His art style. He can't just decide to get rid of it by training in the mountains. Let alone when he has to deliver 16 pages every weak. He has been drawing Nami and Robin for 20 years, of course he has unconscious reflexes to copy them.
Colors and clothes are what let an artist escape this bias and infinitely renew his designs and characters.Drawing myself, watching a lot of perv…huh deviantart artists, and reading tons of mangas, I assure you that it is not mediocre. People don't just draw a face, they ACHIEVE it. It is the hardest part. That's why they unconsciously repeat what they can do. You all make it sounds like Oda has an issue that other artists does not have with female characters. When it's the same for any good artist or manga I am following.
Why do you think he started changing the outfits of the strawhats so often ? Outfits and colors are as important as the face in character design. -
It is not!
No matter the talent of the artist there is an unconscious bias when drawing the most difficult part of a character : the face. A bias that ironically can become all the more noticeable after years of practice. It is part of an artist touch. His art style. He can't just decide to get rid of it by training in the mountains. Let alone when he has to deliver 16 pages every weak. He has been drawing Nami and Robin for 20 years, of course he has unconscious reflexes to copy them.
Colors and clothes are what let an artist escape this bias and infinitely renew his designs and characters.Drawing myself, watching a lot of perv…huh deviantart artists, and reading tons of mangas, I assure you that it is not mediocre. People don't just draw a face, they ACHIEVE it. It is the hardest part. That's why they unconsciously repeat what they can do. You all make it sounds like Oda has an issue that other artists does not have with female characters. When it's the same for any good artist or manga I am following.
Why do you think he started changing the outfits of the strawhats so often ? Outfits and colors are as important as the face in character design.I have actually met and worked with artists who have these types of biases. It's completely human to be flawed in depicting a certain gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation in a non-stereotypical/repetitive fashion, whether it has to do with art or writing. But you know what they do? Rather than ignore being progressive representation/creativity and bask in that ignorance with indulgent pride, they listen to criticism and work to overcome that bias. Like a good artist should. Working on a manga for so long is not an excuse. Especially when Oda's art style, as well as that of others like Kishimoto for Naruto and Araki for Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, continuously adapt and evolve over the years for better/worse as they learn from what they perceive to be flaws. Although it's ironic that I use them as examples because Naruto dumbed down its art-style and character designs in Part 2 and Jojo has a similar issue with clone faces lol.
You're basically saying that if an author has a hard time depicting a certain type of demographic, they should either bask in their flaw without trying to overcome it or maybe even hand it off to somebody from that demographic to write/draw. As if you can't blame the author's will to overcome a flaw they have, it's just something innate we must accept without question as if a bias is something we're born with rather than what we're cultured into believing/preferring. You don't quit just because it's hard, as that only goes to show that you don't care about quality in artistic expression as much as you care doing whatever you want that makes you feel the most comfortable. A shallow feeling of false satisfaction like that should never be praised, and it does a disservice to both the medium and creators who are actually willing to try to improve.
Clothes and colors don't "escape" from this bias or "renew" anything, they are only used as a superficial crutch to rehash what's already easy to do in the same way you try to sweep crumbs of food under your rug instead of putting in the effort to throw them in the trash for good. Nobody has said that it is easy to overcome such biases, they shouldn't since it can be difficult. But that is not a proper excuse to neglect pushing your series to be as qualitatively high as possible in what you know would be good for it. It's a disservice to the creators themselves and their fans.
If Oda has enough time to be serendipitous enough with his arcs to make up the designs for nine Supernovas in a few hours and decide to have Shanks appear at the end of the Marineford AFTER the arc has already started, he has time to spare in trying improve his female design diversity.
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Oh, fuck…
One of the things I loved about Linlin is that she wasn't one more of that One Piece "gag" (if you can call it that) of women who become absurdly ugly once they grow old. It would be funny if it happened once, maybe twice, but when every single old woman used to be beautiful when they were young and then became absurdly ugly, I can't help but see it as "old women are ugly. Don't grow old, girls lololol".
I really liked the fact Linlin always looked like that, as a child and older (although now I suppose that older was not that much older. Maybe just pre-teen?). She wasn't really beautiful before, and she is not particularly ugly now (she is just not attractive).Her case is still not that bad, though, I suppose she still is an improvement in the sense her lack of attractiveness (?) was never something brought up in the manga and much less used as comedy material.
Still, it's pretty stupid how 5yo and ??yo Linlin look so much like the 68yo one, but 28 looks like a completely different person.
EDIT: Forget it, the more I look at "thin mom", the more I hate it. It is so... unfitting. I was looking at it simply from a general way, but when you think about the character herself it just makes no sense and goes against her characteristics and themes.
Funny how Napoleon came to be so much later than Zeus and Prometheus, btw.
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@.access:
Still, it's pretty stupid how 5yo and ??yo Linlin look so much like the 68yo one, but 28 looks like a completely different person.
You mean 48 years old? I have to admit, asking Oda what Big Mom looked like in twenty year intervals is a bit of a weirdly specific question to ask lol. Although I appreciate it nonetheless, even if I don't sound that way in recent comments.
Funny how Napoleon came to be so much later than Zeus and Prometheus, btw.
Ugh, I have been wanting to post this in the thread for long but kept forgetting. Yeah, it is a bit interesting.
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I think Oda is more or less aware of the same face syndrome with his female characters.
To be fair to him, he also draw "handsome" guys with the same face. The Law syndrome. Sabo also look like a mixture of Coby & Luffy.
BUT he only make like 10% of his male characters "handsome". And with the huge amount of male characters, it's not outright noticeable.However, when it's comes to female, he makes like 95% of them pretty because IDK. So, they end up having the same face. When he doesn't care about making them look pretty, they actually look different.
Oda can totally design unique female characters if he wanted to. But he's really deadset with making them look pretty so Namiface all the way.He isn't going to change unless his daughters point out all the females look all the same.lol
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He isn't going to change unless his daughters point out all the females look all the same.lol
Considering how I am 99% sure his parenting bias poured into how he wrote Rebecca and Kyros' characters arcs, this is probably true. Scarily true. I think even remember him saying in an interview or SBS that he cultivated his idealized vision of beautiful fictional women due to originally being criticized by his editor that his females weren't pretty/sexy enough many years ago.
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@Count:
Considering how I am 99% sure his parenting bias poured into how he wrote Rebecca and Kyros' characters arcs, this is probably true. Scarily true. I think even remember him saying in an interview or SBS that he cultivated his idealized vision of beautiful fictional women due to originally being criticized by his editor that his females weren't pretty/sexy enough many years ago.
Exactly. I was going to say this. That early criticism changed completely how he designed women. Also, with big mom I think funnily enough it works well if you go from 8-68-48-28. It's an almost perfect telling of a makeover and diet through the years. You could make a movie.
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@Count:
You mean 48 years old? I have to admit, asking Oda what Big Mom looked like in twenty year intervals is a bit of a weirdly specific question to ask lol. Although I appreciate it nonetheless, even if I don't sound that way in recent comments.
By ??yo I mean this one:
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Exactly. I was going to say this. That early criticism changed completely how he designed women. Also, with big mom I think funnily enough it works well if you go from 8-68-48-28. It's an almost perfect telling of a makeover and diet through the years. You could make a movie.
lmao Oh my God, that is freaking hilarious.
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If it was just regular same-face syndrome I wouldn't mind it so much, it can be difficult going outside your comfort zone and it might not be in your interest either. Artist's choice. What's frustrating is that Oda is clearly capable of creating varied women. They just never get the spotlight. Instead we get Nami 2.0 or Robin 2.0 while the male cast is far more varied.
That said, I'm still extremely happy with Big Mom and her crew. It's the first time since Amazon Lily we've had this much variation. Hopefully it carries on to future arcs. Carrot has also been nice, maybe not the most unique in appearance but it's been so much fun having a non-mature girl on board. Brulée also deserves some mention.
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Oda change Mochi Mochi no Mi from Logia to Paramecia (1st picture from Jump (Logia - 自然系) and 2nd picture from Volume 86 (Paramecia - 超人系)).
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So it was either a mistake, or Oda realized that Mochi isn't natural. Kind of funny how it negates all of the convos everyone had about it, or reinforces those who said it should be Paramecia. So does this mean Big Mom has no Logia's on her crew? Makes it even more impressive that they're so strong.
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Doesn't make sense.Ichiji split Katakuri is half after all.
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Wait wait wait wait wait. Katakuri got changed from a Logia to a Paramecia? Seriously? So we had all of those debates about whether or not Logias are elemental/nature-themed and if food can count into that because of Grand Line weather for nothing?
The fact that we have explicit confirmation that even Oda himself thought a mochi Logia either sounded too stupid or was a mistake just made my day.
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This kind of stuff can't be made up.
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Don't forget the possibility that the volume screwed up.
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Don't forget the possibility that the volume screwed up.
…I think this might a slight, very slight possibility given how Bege shot bullets through Katakuri who reacted just like an intangible Logia would. Maybe he has a passive ability like Luffy, but Luffy is rubber all of the time while Katakuri has to actually transform into mochi to be mochi.
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I too think it's hard to believe given how serious is japan about One Piece. Unlike France that gets this kind of mistake two or three times per volume.
Is the chapter where Ichiji cuts Katakuri in half in this volume ? -
Well, this would be quite a bizarre retcon, assuming the volume didn't screw up.
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I can see the original text being wrong and the mistake being carried over to the volume, but actually changing the existing text to something wrong? Specially something so specific as changing the category of a DF? I can't see it happening.
Problem is, as pointed out, it being a Paramecia doesn't make sense since we already saw Katakuri's body can enter an intangible state.
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Is Katakuri pulling a Trebol or what?
"Behehe, Logia? I was a Paramecia all along."
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Not another paramecia wannabe logia. If trebol was some kind of contorsionist, how does this fruit work? It allows the user to transform when he wants into the substance like logia do or is his body all the time mochi like luffy? And why does he have intangibility?
Next time we see carbiou turns out he was paramecia too. Since people still had problems about swamp logia.
I wish DFs never existed in the first place.
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Holy shit is he a dwarf using an armor like Cracker ?!!!!
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Holy shit is he a dwarf using an armor like Cracker ?!!!!
Now that would be funny.
Next up, Smoothie isn't actually the real Smoothie. It's a decoy made of orange juice.
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@uniaka:
Next time we see carbiou turns out he was paramecia too. Since people still had problems about swamp logia.
Caribou is mud or some sort of bog. That's completely natural.
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I too think it's hard to believe given how serious is japan about One Piece. Unlike France that gets this kind of mistake two or three times per volume.
Is the chapter where Ichiji cuts Katakuri in half in this volume ?Ichiji cuts Katakuri in half : chapter 871
meanwhile, vol 86 from 859 until 869.!
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Holy shit is he a dwarf using an armor like Cracker ?!!!!
I have wanted a competent Dwarf antagonist in this series ever since Dressrosa. And I felt really cheated out when we got that glimpse of a Dwarf in Big Mom's crew and he never ended up becoming a relevant character. So imagining the thought that Katakuri wears a scarf over his face, not because he looks ugly/scarred, but because that scar is covering up a whole Dwarf above a body of mochi, is just… I need to see this.
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@Joy:
Doesn't make sense.Ichiji split Katakuri is half after all.
Remember when Kyros beheads Doffy?
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Well, to be fair, the change is from "Logia" to "special Paramecia"…
@Count:
I have wanted a competent Dwarf antagonist in this series ever since Dressrosa. And I felt really cheated out when we got that glimpse of a Dwarf in Big Mom's crew and he never ended up becoming a relevant character. So imagining the thought that Katakuri wears a scarf over his face, not because he looks ugly/scarred, but because that scar is covering up a whole Dwarf above a body of mochi, is just… I need to see this.
Stop doing this! Stop giving me hopes… dreams...
... ok, now I want him to be a dwarf.
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@.access:
Well, to be fair, the change is from "Logia" to "special Paramecia"…
Well, now this just opens an entirely new can of worms.
Who else is a special Paramecia? Whitebeard? Magellan? Doula Mongo?
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@Count:
I have wanted a competent Dwarf antagonist in this series ever since Dressrosa. And I felt really cheated out when we got that glimpse of a Dwarf in Big Mom's crew and he never ended up becoming a relevant character. So imagining the thought that Katakuri wears a scarf over his face, not because he looks ugly/scarred, but because that scar is covering up a whole Dwarf above a body of mochi, is just… I need to see this.
Where did we get that glimpse?
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@Count:
Most underwhelming reveal ever.
Idk but the traitor reveal probably isnt gonna be pedro/carrot/wanda orinuarashi/nekomamushi so it probably wont be a bombshell either way, im sticking to the idea that someone got a piece of them stolen when they didnt know it
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@Long:
Idk but the traitor reveal probably isnt gonna be pedro/carrot/wanda orinuarashi/nekomamushi so it probably wont be a bombshell either way, im sticking to the idea that someone got a piece of them stolen when they didnt know it
I would be more fine with that than random background Mink who showed up in two sparse panels lol.
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Where did we get that glimpse?
Chapter 829:
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Wow what a retcon! I'm not sure what to think at all. I distinctly remember Katakuri getting shot full of holes and made to look intangible. If this "special paramecia" business is true then I have no idea what to make of it.
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This post is deleted!
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@.access:
Well, to be fair, the change is from "Logia" to "special Paramecia"…
Oda… ODA. STOP. First "superior" Devil Fruits and now this? What is going to come next?
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@Count:
I have wanted a competent Dwarf antagonist in this series ever since Dressrosa. And I felt really cheated out when we got that glimpse of a Dwarf in Big Mom's crew and he never ended up becoming a relevant character. So imagining the thought that Katakuri wears a scarf over his face, not because he looks ugly/scarred, but because that scar is covering up a whole Dwarf above a body of mochi, is just… I need to see this.
Men in black style…
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@Count:
Oda… ODA. STOP. First "superior" Devil Fruits and now this? What is going to come next?
Angel Fruits.
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@trio:
Remember when Kyros beheads Doffy?
That was a clone though