@Blowfish:
But Oda has multiple panels of people telling Jinbe to be more selfish. Aside from The Sun Pirates encouraging him I can think of the meeting He had with Neptune before the crew left FI, about flying Luffy's flag in substitute of Big Mom's. His characterzation is that of someone who's selfless in his actions and loyalties and the one thing he didn't care about, perhaps even despised in the politics of fishman/human relations became his dream through the deaths of people he really respected. Just like every other Strawhat.
Jinbe's story is just alittle different because he's a seasoned veteran who's seen a few things and started his pirating later in life and his life changing experiences happened when he was already middle aged, unlike most of the crewmembers who's life altering moments happened when they were children. I think that's the disconnect here with what was just as much Jinbe's flashback (the POV character) as Fishman Islands as a whole. The events that took place back then changed him the most which is what happend with the others imo.
That's why his so casually dismissing betraying Big Mom is so hilarious, it's very unlike Jinbe and more Strawhat like in nature.
You're right. I'm just saying that Jimbei's dream of improving Human-Fishman relations, which embodies everything he's done up until now, what the Fishman Island flashback was about, and still hasn't been solved, shouldn't be completely forgotten or disregarded by Jimbei. Having his character become more selfish does not mean he has to shelve that dream away. It just means he doesn't have to be so recklessly self-sacrificial and try to handle dealing with big factions or the sake of others anymore now that Luffy's around. He can actually get self-satisfaction out of his life. And in a way that still helps the Fishmen too as a bonus effect! That's all I meant to say. Jimbei learning to become more selfish and his dream being to improve Human-Fishman relations do to have to be mutually exclusive at all. Just like how Brook emphasized how much he wanted to make friends after being alone for so long and gaining the will to live, even though his dream is to reunite with Laboon to play his crew's Tone Dial recording.
Because let's be honest here, Oda is not writing a Big Mom personal vendetta trip to FI when all of the momentum and build up is headed towards a confrontation with Kaido and The Beast Pirates at Wano, it just doesn't make any narrative sense when like I said the most valuable asset (hate to use that term, really do) in Shirahoshi and the entire Royal Family for that matter are at Reverie. So what tension is there to be exploited I guess is my point?
Yes FI is Jinbe's home but it's not as valuable in it's physical sense as people think if we're already supposed to expect it's demise (By Luffy personally I might add, who's definitely headed to Wano after this. Shirley's never been wrong) and it's people eagerly wanting to migrate to the surface.
If anything the last thing Oda will do is have something instigate it's destruction this early in the game specifically of it's connections to the void century and the ponyglyphs. To destroy FI will mean having to develop those plot threads and they're clearly being left off for future developments for specific reasons unknown to us at the moment.
There's pretty much no tension. I can't even see Kaido attacking Fishman Island despite having Caribou potentially spill the beans on Shirahoshi being Poseidon, because so much build-up and thematic relevance demands satisfaction from his defeat being in Wano Country. At most, I expect some of the Beast Pirates to try raiding the Reverie or something, which may end up publicly exposing to the world about Poseidon's identity. And then THAT could get the ball rolling for Fishman Island's eventual destruction at the ends of somebody else, with Linlin and Kaido only being red herrings (and just stepping stones at the end of the day if we're being honest here. Huge stepping stones, but still stepping stones as arc antagonists).
I bet those future developments involve Blackbeard wanting to test Pluton by trying to destroy either Fishman Island or Mariejois (which is right above the Red Line, which is thus right above Fishman Island). But that's just my theory since it doesn't make sense for either Big Mom or Kaido to destroy the island when looking at the scope of how One Piece's narrative will likely go down. Also, it doesn't have to be Luffy. Do you really think it's a coincidence that all straw hats are all the rage now in Fishman Island? Shirley only saw a silhouette of someone wearing a straw hat, which made her prejudicially assume it had to be Luffy because he's a big bad human who beat up her half-brother. Of course, Oda could pull a twist of it still ironically being Luffy anyways. Whatever the case, it doesn't make any sense for the Straw Hats to backtrack to a place like Fishman Island before they at leafs get all four Road Poneglyph scripts.
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@Gizmo:
Chopper didn't join the crew to be the best doctor in the world. He just wants to see the world and have friends because Luffy asked him and he's never had friends before, just parental like figures. Brooke joined not to see Laboon again but because Luffy asked. It's not like once Brook reaches Laboon he's bailing ship. Jinbe can have the dream of human-Fishman relations, but for his primary reason to join is to be because he wants to instead of because it will better human-Fishman relations is simple yeah, but for me that's not shallow or weak characterization IMO, especially given he's been doing so much out of a sense of "responsibility" otherwise.
There is such a thing as a burden of living for someone else, and if you find living for own life/enjoyment after fighting for the sake of others for a long time is irritating or something Jinbe shouldn't be driven by, then I dunno where to go from there. It's just two ships passing in the night by that point.
And outside of that line, if there's a genuine reason why being under Luffy is key to human-Fishman relations, than feel free to explain it via evidence from the manga (one that wouldn't equally be solved by serving under Big Mom for example).
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
And to clarify, his inner demons is my way of saying his need to be self sacrificing for others. Whether it's his fellow Fishman, or Whitebeard/Ace. I'll do X even if it costs me my life. That's Jinbe.
Okay, now I think we were just having miscommunication. I thought we were talking about dreams, since it was the topic of how being on the Straw Hats could help Human-Fishman relations that started this whole discussion. But apparently you're solely referring to why members join the crew in the specific moments that they do. In that context, I pretty much agree with you lol. Yes, for several members, being with the crew specifically to enact their dreams is because they value being with the Straw Hats in and of itself. It's part of why Robin decided not to have Rayleigh tell her what the Roger Pirates discovered about the Void Century so early in their journey (besides their findings possibly being inaccurate and would thus make Robin's perspective as a scholar biased). I apologize for the misunderstanding, because I thought you were claiming that Jimbei's dream was insufficient due to not being selfish enough or something lol. It can get confusing because I've actually seen people try to argue that before as a reason why Jimbei can't join. So yes, Jimbei's priority to join as of the moment is because he likes Luffy lol. But it doesn't mean he does not see the merit that Luffy has improving Human-Fishman relations either, and the same goes for everybody else who is trying to enact their dreams even though their primary reason they're adventuring together is because they're friends.
Its fine for Jimbei to not continually put his life on the line so recklessly and alone like he's always done. He deserves some genuine happiness. But that doesn't mean that he should forget about why he's done everything he's done for Fishman Island and still acknowledge that the fight for equality isn't over yet. After that's done, sure. Jimbei can go on with wanting to become the best helmsman in the world without a care in the world. All of this development is moreso about Jimbei not having to shoulder the responsibility alone ANYMORE, rather than it being flawed that he chose to do so in the first place like with Sanji and Franky's guilt trips. With Luffy protecting Fishman Island, he can actually find some leisure and more selfish satisfaction in life without having to deal with his business all on his own. But that doesn't mean it would be good for his character to completely forget about the plight of the Fishmen when they still haven't achieved equality. That's all I'm saying. Jimbei's dream is still relevant and helped in joining Luffy. But like you said, it's not the sole reason that he joined. He's doing that because he likes him.
Well, I would think that not being bound by someone who destroys territories if they can't pay candy quotas would at least be a start lol. And Jimbei at least gets that Luffy mysteriously shakes up the foundation of the world in a miraculous protagonist fashion. Really, he only essentially needs Luffy for protection. But during Fishman Island, Luffy stood as an inspiring human who showed that not all humans were just oppressors like Arlong and Hody claimed. He's become a hero. So being under such a new icon of human-Fishman coexistence is VERY effective for stifling the cycle of intergenerational hatred of humans, which is focused on in how the children see Luffy's actions to know he's good rather than listening to the ignorant words of the biased prejudicial older generations. Look at how straw hats are even making a commercial boom at Fishman Island because of how inspiring Luffy is. Jimbei told Luffy that he needed to act as the hero of Fishman Island if he were to fight Hody, and that's what he's pretty much doing by making Fishman Island his territory and Jimbei a crew member. And I'm willing to bet that Fishman Island's support of Luffy will play a pivotal role in the Reverie when it comes to them trying to push for acknowledgment and equal status alongside humans from the World Government (although I doubt they'll be successful at this time of the story).
I agree on that. In fact, that's pretty much the character development emphasis that's being placed on Sanji this arc. So the juxtaposition of that and having Jimbei join this arc work well to compliment each other.