Note -> Manga/Franchise isn't doing so well -> Author Blame and not Publisher Blame.
My intention wasn't to state that it was exclusively their fault for Toriko not doing so well. My intention was to point out Toei's role in the possible editorial pressure behind the rushing (if it exists) because frankly I'm tired of Toei having such cash cows and, despite that, having such quality.
In other words, my intention was not to deny the fault of others, like the author, for the overall shape of the franchise. My intention was to say that, if the author is being rushed by others (editorial pressure) that certainly leads back to the failed expectations for the franchise, for which Toei's poor anime certainly was a factor.
Or are you saying that One Piece is the #1 series in Japan and highly popular in the world isn't because of the author but the publisher? The fact that One Piece has 18 years of running in the magazine and that Oda can write without any rush is because of the Publisher, or because he made a pretty good and popular series that is recognized?
No, but I'm pretty sure that the chances for One Piece to be even bigger would only improve if the anime was better, and that the chances of One Piece to become this big would have been less if the anime had been worse than it is.
Let's assume you're right, and the anime was so poor and horrible that it had such a major negative impact in the franchise. The thing is that it ended, and after the so called negative impact it provided, it had nothing more to do with the franchise. The fans that after that stayed and the readers of the magazine, weren't influenced by the anime anymore. And so the author became the only real influence in the popularity of the franchise henceforth.
And so we got the Skip of Komatsu rescue, we got the 1st arc of Gourmet World being in Human World, we got Air and Heracles(Nightmare in the Viz Jump) arc, we got Pair and Monkey King arc, and we got the rest.
So, the thing is, are you complaining of the situation the series got right now and the real culprit, or are you just freeing your frustrations by daydreaming about what the series could be if the anime adaptation wasn't poor? Because if the later, that is being childish! What is in the past is in the past. Focus in what is important and relevant. Not in evading the real problem here.
Here are the sales for Toriko since the beginning:
! 2008
Did not appear in the yearly list.
! Last seen rankings, both volumes released together.
69,177 Toriko vol.1
66,847 Toriko vol.2
! 2009
Did not appear in the yearly list.
! Last seen rankings.
153,252 Toriko vol.3
149,487 Toriko vol.4
186,365 Toriko vol.5
179,648 Toriko vol.6
! 2010
Did not appear in the yearly list.
! Last seen rankings.
167,067 Toriko vol.7
173,254 Toriko vol.8
184,113 Toriko vol.9
158,452 Toriko vol.10
190,911 Toriko vol.11
! 2011. (Nov 22nd 2010 - Nov 20th 2011)
No volume ranked but the overall sales for the year still ranked.
By series
*5, *4,665,634 Toriko
! Backlog Sales: ~2.220.000 (don't have the accurate numbers for the volumes so this is a general estimate)
! Last seen rankings.
222,368 Toriko vol.12
209,894 Toriko vol.13
216,554 Toriko vol.14
anime started
311,498 Toriko vol.15
315,061 Toriko vol.16
331,144 Toriko vol.17
! 2012. (Nov 21 2011 - Nov 18 2012)
By series
11, *3,005,339 Toriko
! By volume
58, *,487,114 Toriko vol.18
61, *,479,739 Toriko vol.19
66, *,466,116 Toriko vol.20
89, *,399,838 Toriko vol.21
! Backlog Sales: 1,172,532
! Last seen rankings.
353,555 Toriko vol.18
345,942 Toriko vol.19
365,494 Toriko vol.20
352,560 Toriko Vol.21
! 2013. (November 19 2012 to November 17 2013)
Volume 25, 26 and 27 did not rank on the yearly list.
By series
13 *2,844,248 Toriko
! By volume
*83 *,463,879 Toriko vol. 22
*87 *,447,716 Toriko vol. 23
*89 *,441,906 Toriko vol. 24
! Backlog Sales: ~550.000
! Last seen rankings.
*,344,353 Toriko vol.22
*,364,585 Toriko Vol.23
*,344,237 Toriko Vol.24
*,340,805 Toriko Vol.25
*,307,909 Toriko Vol.26
(released close to the cut off date) *,322,602 Toriko Vol.27
! 2014. (November 18, 2013 - November 16, 2014)
Toriko did not rank in the main yearly list, but did rank in the later released list
By series.
- Toriko (1,877,287)
! By volume.
55. *,392,584 Toriko Vol.28
70. *,380,454 Toriko Vol.29
168 *347,011 Toriko Vol.30
Vol 31 and 32 did not appear in the yearly list.
! Backlog Sales: ~250.000
! Last seen rankings in the weekly list.
315,626 Toriko Vol.28
313,560 Toriko Vol.29
anime ended
281,268 Toriko Vol.30
267,400 Toriko Vol.31
257,990 Toriko Vol.32
! 2015. (November 17, 2014 - November 22, 2015)
Did not appear in the main yearly list.
! Half yearly 2015 list
*,322,026 Toriko Vol.33
*,299,240 Toriko Vol.34
http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1389545
! Last seen rankings in weekly list.
May or may not appear in the 2015 list.
*,263,043 Toriko Vol.33
*,264,412 Toriko Vol.34
*,260,524 Toriko Vol.35
*,254,190 Toriko Vol.36
! 2016.
! Last seen ranking in the weekly list.
*, 237,049 Toriko Vol.37
! http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1369397
So, as you can see, current Toriko Volumes still sell better nowadays without the anime than volumes prior to the anime (for example Volume 37 versus volume 11).
That means that, since the sales aren't that bad, if there is editorial pressure to rush it's because of failed expectations regarding Toriko's franchise, because it's not doing as well as they expected/wanted, and something very relevant for that was the poor anime adaption, which was what I pointed out and criticized.
That simple statement was my point.
My intention was never to say that Toei was the possible sole factor and the only possible culprit. So no, I'm not daydreaming, I'm pointing out a particular factor that, if there is editorial pressure, it certainly played its part in the situation.
Now about the negative impact to the franchise that the anime provided. This is totally your biased opinion. It has nothing of real in there. Provide me proof instead of just blatantly shout about it.
I never claimed that I speaking anything other than my opinion. That's what a forum is for, stating our opinion. And since my opinion is basically that the better the anime, the better the chances of the franchise to be big, and the worse the anime, the worse the chances for the franchise to be big, which seems to to be entirely logical to me, you are free to disagree all you want, even though I see no logic in that.
Every indicator shown that the anime got a highly positive effect to the franchise, and there is no negative impact anywhere to be seen. The manga got a extremely good boost, 210k, even appearing in the yearly Manga Top list, while the anime was running. The anime got amazing TV ratings! The franchise got great merchandise sales, even in 2012 appearing in the Character Database Top 100 list, with earnings of 19.9 Billion yen(164.3 Million dollars). It was Toei Animation 4th best Domestic franchise during 2012, 2013 and 2014 Fiscal years. Only being behind One Piece, Precure and Dragon Ball. It was even able in 2013 to be Toei 4th best Overseas Film franchise, surpassing Sailor Moon, Saint Seiya and Precure in that years. And just got behind One Piece, Dragon Ball and Digimon.
Never said or intended to say that the anime didn't have a positive impact on the franchise when it started.
I said two things:
1- I said that, after it ended, because it ended suddenly and horribly, and also because it had never been that great and had only been becoming worse as time went on in terms of quality, it had a negative impact.
2- That if the anime had been better (like Toei certainly should be able to do and consistently fails to so like we see in many of their animes), the chances of the franchise to become big would certainly be better, which was what everyone seemed to be pushing for (Toriko becoming big), but, despite this, they still didn't make a better anime.
My intention was nothing more, nothing less than that and my main point was the second one.
You can disagree with either, and frankly I even admit, regarding the first point, that it's entirely possible that the overall effect of the anime was more positive than negative, but it seems obvious to me that the quality of the anime, and how it degraded and ended, had a backlash, and the chances for the franchise to become big were certainly less than they would have been with a better anime.
About it ending suddenly and so not providing chances for the franchise to become an established or big franchise, that is totally wrong.
Better chances. The way you put it, it makes it sound like I'm suggesting that without the good anime the franchise had no chances, like that was the sole factor. I think it's clear that that was not my point.
And how is it wrong to say that it ended suddenly? In just a few episodes that scrapped by an ending so that they could have a sort of ending to the anime when it was obvious that that wasn't really the original plan. It wasn't a matter of how long it had been running, but of flow, plot and intention.
Is obvious you don't know how things work for saying such a thing.
So, if a anime has better quality, the franchise doesn't have a better chance to be big…? Because that's pretty much what I'm saying.
First Toriko had 3 years before the anime adaptation to establish itself. During all that time it was only able to sell 270k copies per volume(and this was its best volume), My Hero Academia reached 300k by its 1st volume, while Toriko was doing similar number to Nurarihyon no Mago, for 3 ENTIRE years! The anime adaptation ran for 3 years. 3 years is already an incredible long time. Most long running series only get between 1-3 years of anime. Yu Yu Hakusho? Slam Dunk? Saint Seiya? D. Gray Man? Gash Bell? 2 years! Shaman King? Hunter x Hunter 1999? Sket Dance? Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo? 1 year(and something). 3 years of running is an amazing time to establish a franchise! One Piece got to the end of Alabasta in 3 years, Hunter x Hunter 2011 ran all of the manga in 3 years! Evangelion spent half an year to do get established, and current seasonal series also do it.
And during that time, the better the quality of the anime, the better the chances of the franchise to be big. It might not happen, of course, but the chances would certainly be better.
Saying that 3 years wasn't enough to establish an anime franchise is stupidity.
Since I never mentioned anything at all about how long it run, just about its quality, that is not really directed at me. Still, I feel that you meant to call me stupid all the same…
Toriyama never criticized Dragon Ball Super!
Then maybe you should tell the folks over at Kanzenshuu that, if you are so sure: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1040503#p1040503
The points I was trying to make with this discussion are these:
- Toei has some of the biggest cash cows out there;
- Despite this, Toei consistently produces anime that seem inferior in quality to many/most of the other studios;
- This deserves criticism, regardless of how it relates to Toriko;
- Regarding Toriko, since the better the anime, the better the chances of a franchise to be big, Toei not making a better anime, despite everyone pushing Toriko to be big, certainly didn't improve its chances, like it could with an anime with better quality, so we can blame Toei on that point;
- If there's currently editorial pressure to rush the manga, and we don't know for sure if there is, the last point certainly played its part in it because the only justification for that is Toriko not managing to become as big as they wanted, and it would have had a better chance for that with a better anime;
- none of this means that Toei is the only one who played a role in this or that could possibly be blamed, obviously, nor do I fully understand why someone would take the discussion in that direction since I didn't have that intention, unless I was misunderstood, possibly due to not having been clear enough in my statements (but at least I didn't call anyone stupid…).