Come to think of it, "the breath of all things" makes no sense, but it had a flashback.
I think that Zoro came out with this technique while blocking Kaku's attacks so quickly. In the heat of battle, Zoro became like a monster.
Come to think of it, "the breath of all things" makes no sense, but it had a flashback.
I think that Zoro came out with this technique while blocking Kaku's attacks so quickly. In the heat of battle, Zoro became like a monster.
To be honest, why should the means be so important?
Well, it may be irrelevent to you, but it's quite interesting ot me.
Anyway the point is…. at super high levels, sometimes strong guys like Zoro will have an aura that gives manifestations, more commonly in the form of a Tiger or a Dragon. I don't know why people are taking this Asura thing so damn literally. Tatsumaki gives off a silhouette of a dragon, but it would look weird if Zoro's arms turned into a dragon. This Asura move is a so-called "9 sword style" which is at such high level that Zoro was giving off manifestations even before he got into his pose. A lot of mangas have characters whose moves are always drawn with the image of animals and deities (like Tenten for example); it's just that Zoro's 9 sword style is manifested in his own body is all.
That's basically what I was trying to say, but that explains it alot better than I did.
Come to think of it, "the breath of all things" makes no sense, but it had a flashback.
**I don't see how it makes no sense. Great warriors in the real world have told of such things. It is basiccly sensing the energy, the chi, that comes from all things. In this case "breath" is interchangable with "Chi" or "energy"
I suspect you must understand this universal presense before you must cut something made of the same matieral as your weapon. Otherwise your weapon would break. It most likley has something to do with using the chi to finding a "weak spot" and cutting in a special way.**
@Octogon:
I don't see how it makes no sense. Great warriors in the real world have told of such things. It is basiccly sensing the energy, the chi, that comes from all things. In this case "breath" is interchangable with "Chi" or "energy"
"Breath" is a Buddhist term that can mean, "Qi," but that is essentially the same thing as "Ki," or "Chi," though "Qi" is more of a referrence to weather.
What I like about the "Breath," in Zoro's case, is that it seems to follow a more realistic veiw than in other animes such as Dragon Ball.
Hmm… You know something? I think I just realised something: When he was fighting Mr.1, he almost died/lost because he couldn't cut metal, but he pushed himself so far as to discover "Ki," right? Well, doesn't that seem to corresponed to Zoro's situation in chapter 417 when Kaku was pressing foward and seemingly about to beat him? Mabey Zoro's new powers manifest themselves when he's in a corner, so to speak, and needs to rise above his limitations and go to a new level of strength; the "Asura" thing just seems to be a whole new catagory of that.
I don't know, that's just my observation.
"Breath" is a Buddhist term that can mean, "Qi," but that is essentially the same thing as "Ki," or "Chi," though "Qi" is more of a referrence to weather.
What I like about the "Breath," in Zoro's case, is that it seems to follow a more realistic veiw than in other animes such as Dragon Ball.
Hmm… You know something? I think I just realised something: When he was fighting Mr.1, he almost died/lost because he couldn't cut metal, but he pushed himself so far as to discover "Ki," right? Well, doesn't that seem to corresponed to Zoro's situation in chapter 417 when Kaku was pressing foward and seemingly about to beat him? Mabey Zoro's new powers manifest themselves when he's in a corner, so to speak, and needs to rise above his limitations and go to a new level of strength; the "Asura" thing just seems to be a whole new catagory of that.
I don't know, that's just my observation.
Good theory. Zoro is unlocking new strength as he gets pushed to the edge by his enemies. Mr.1 pushed him to near death and Zoro learned to cut steel, while Kaku pushed Zoro in intense combat and unlocked the power to become like a demon/deity–the Asura.
I don't see the problem with Zorro using his power to make more arms and heads appear when Kaku and Jyabura can make Shuriken and Wolf shaped kick-projectiles. It's just not on the same level as the sort of crap those two guys pulled in their fights.
I'm pretty sure Zoro has gotten to the level where he can bring about his wrath of destruction on command. Maybe it's just me but I don't he was ever in a corner in this chapter. I mean he knew Kaku was a strong opponent and that he had to break out his 9 sword style to win, but I don't think that constitutes as being put in a corner.
Yes, Zoro often seems to "discover" these talents when he's down, but as he said after Alabasta, he has to learn to "call it on command" or he wouldn't have grown. I go with Kibagami: he didn't seem that much "down" as he has before, so it seems that he's slowly learning to gain more control over it.
Here's something interesting:
The golden Pelony. Luffy makes what appears to be dozens of his arm and the golden ball stuck to it. No "speed lines" like in Gomu gomu no gatling (at least not in that last panel, the one I want to focus on), just what seems to be multiple arms. Yet, the explaination for this clearly must be speed.
I imagine the "Asura" is similar to this move. With speed Zoro creates an illusion of multiple arms and heads.
And yes, Zoro's neck is probably strong enough to do this.
@Sven:
I don't see the problem with Zorro using his power to make more arms and heads appear when Kaku and Jyabura can make Shuriken and Wolf shaped kick-projectiles. It's just not on the same level as the sort of crap those two guys pulled in their fights.
IMO, attacks are allowed to get a little more absurd with Kaku and Jyabura because they're devil fruit users. If something doesn't make sense, make up an explanation having to do with devil fruits. Well that's fine for devil fruit users since the number of people with devil fruit abilities are limited, and since we really don't understand how devil fruits work. With non-devil fruits users on the other hand, if we start using things like a character's "power" to explain absurd things, well then pretty much anything goes in One Piece.
I think some people just don't want to see this turning into another Naruto where all those crazy, unblievable, ridiculous crap characters pull are all conveniently explained with chakra. Nor do they want to see Zoro doing Spirit Bombs or KameKameHa's left and right. Devil Fruits already add enough absurdity to the story, and we accept that. Adding another level of absurdity would just be totally lame.
Its just Chi images guys, weve seen animals images, now were seeing god images
The change from animals to gods/demons is just to show that Zoro just made a major increase in power, but he doesn't turn into an Asura anymore than he turns into a bear or a gorilla or a dragon. Its just his Chi is stronger now, so the enemy is actually able to see Zoro's aura take the shape now when he does the moves.
Why is this so complicated? Its not a major twist, its the natural progression of his techniques. The form of the aura indicates his power when doing the move. Gorilla moves gave him gorilla strength, etc.
The Asura is a powerful swordsmanship technique that gives him the power of 9-swords, even though he really only has 3.
Beyond that, don't overcomplicate it, or your just reading way too deep into it.
Its just Chi images guys, weve seen animals images, now were seeing god images
The change from animals to gods/demons is just to show that Zoro just made a major increase in power, but he doesn't turn into an Asura anymore than he turns into a bear or a gorilla or a dragon. Its just his Chi is stronger now, so the enemy is actually able to see Zoro's aura take the shape now when he does the moves.
Why is this so complicated? Its not a major twist, its the natural progression of his techniques. It's still just illusions though, Kaku made that clear. But illusions that indicate his power nonetheless.
No one can accept that Chi exists in OP. I really can't buy it myself. I can't even see the progression to Zoro using chi–I thought the "breath of all things" was a type of skill. I thought those animal images in the backgroud were artistic representation.
I accept the "Ki" idea, I think that Zoro learned how to use it when he learned to cut metal. Mabey it's not "Ki" in the non-fictional sence, but it's still pretty interesting.
Besides that, I stated before that "Breath" is a buddhist term for "Ki." To me, that says, "Zoro learned how to utilize 'Ki,' simple as that."
The only reason I'm putting so much stock in this "Asura" thing, is because I was really interested, but mabey over-thought the idea. I think it's an actual manifestation, and not speed; that's just my opinion.
No one can accept that Chi exists in OP. I really can't buy it myself. I can't even see the progression to Zoro using chi–I thought the "breath of all things" was a type of skill. I thought those animal images in the backgroud were artistic representation.
**Why can't you accet that chi exists in OP? I remember one time I played soccer and I sucked. I decided to concentrate for a while and suddenly a ball cam at my face. I did not hear, smell, taste, feel or see the ball. but Somehow I was able to pull my leg up and block it from hitting my face. I consider this using your chi.
I do believe that the Asura has some chi elemns. Like using chi to help make the illusion. And changing a state of mind. But I am certian that his chi does not take ohysical arms. I say it is mostly a speed-based tenique which is amplified with the use of chi.**
@Octogon:
**Why can't you accet that chi exists in OP? I remember one time I played soccer and I sucked. I decided to concentrate for a while and suddenly a ball cam at my face. I did not hear, smell, taste, feel or see the ball. but Somehow I was able to pull my leg up and block it from hitting my face. I consider this using your chi.
I do believe that the Asura has some chi elemns. Like using chi to help make the illusion. And changing a state of mind. But I am certian that his chi does not take ohysical arms. I say it is mostly a speed-based tenique which is amplified with the use of chi.**
The speed based idea is plausable, but I think that the "aura" manifestation thing sounds like a better explanation. I mean, take a look at this image: http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/ShinmeiryuuOugi/page051.jpg . He's not moving, he's standing still with his swords in different positions, aside from his head, and unless he can move at the speed of light, speed just wouldn't account for that.
The speed based idea is plausable, but I think that the "aura" manifestation thing sounds like a better explanation. I mean, take a look at this image: http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c9…gi/page051.jpg . He's not moving, he's standing still with his swords in different positions, aside from his head, and unless he can move at the speed of light, speed just wouldn't account for that.
Ya, speed has nothing to do with this.
It's simply a killing intent type illusion caused by Zoro's demonic chi. But just because the arms are not real, that mean the attack is any weaker than if they were. Its a visual metaphor for the power of the attack.
Let's face it, itd be boring to simply have Zoro slice through the attack and gut Kaku. The Asura stance is powerful enough to deserve a visual spice, and that's all this is, and its still perfectly in line with what Zoro has shown in the past with the animal images.
The speed based idea is plausable, but I think that the "aura" manifestation thing sounds like a better explanation. I mean, take a look at this image: http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/ShinmeiryuuOugi/page051.jpg . He's not moving, he's standing still with his swords in different positions, aside from his head, and unless he can move at the speed of light, speed just wouldn't account for that.
In manga, we can't really say whether or not he's moving. Listen, for even the illusion of multiple arms in gomu gomu no gatling you'd need to move at the speed of light, yet most people would say that Luffy couldn't do that.
Take the "after-image" in dragonball for example. No one in DBZ can move at the speed of light, supposedly, yet to move so fast that you create a light illusion you'd have to move at the speed of light.
Physics that relate to speed usually aren't right in shounen manga.
Really, I think it's speed. Aura and chi are just other words for Zoro's strength.
Mabey they're real to an extent, like Kage Bushins; they're images, but solid ones.
The form is, indeed, a metaphor for his state of mind, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it. It may be true that it's alot more simpler than we think it to be, but it's enjoyable to think of it as something that's complex, I suppose. Besides that, there's many people veiwing this, and each one of us has our own opinion of what this Asura thing is. Meh… despite what it is, it's fucking awesome...
Really, I think it's speed. Aura and chi are just other words for Zoro's strength.
Well, to each his own. I respect your opinion, as fellow One Piece fanatic, and won't try to sit here and change it.
In manga, we can't really say whether or not he's moving. Listen, for even the illusion of multiple arms in gomu gomu no gatling you'd need to move at the speed of light, yet most people would say that Luffy couldn't do that.
You wouldn't have to move anywhere near the speed of light for that. I can kinda make it look like I have extra arms if I punch really fast. It's just that luffy's are so fast that the eye can barley follow it. Resulting in the brain think ing the arm is still there, thus causing a whole illusion of luffys arms.
Mabey they're real to an extent, like Kage Bushins; they're images, but solid ones.
The form is, indeed, a metaphor for his state of mind, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it. It may be true that it's alot more simpler than we think it to be, but it's enjoyable to think of it as something that's complex, I suppose. Besides that, there's many people veiwing this, and each one of us has our own opinion of what this Asura thing is. Meh… despite what it is, it's fucking awesome...
You know, I still don't buy the existance of chi in OP(in the Dragonball or Naruto chakra sense), but maybe it's still not a big deal. I mean, it's still possible that the next chapter will give us a good explaination. The Asura has only existed for about 4 pages.
@Octogon:
You wouldn't have to move anywhere near the speed of light for that. I can kinda make it look like I have extra arms if I punch really fast. It's just that luffy's are so fast that the eye can barley follow it. Resulting in the brain think ing the arm is still there, thus causing a whole illusion of luffys arms.
Well, when I look at the image, I see no speed lines, or anything like that, that would signafy high speed movement going on. It looks, to me, like Zoro is standing there with six arms, and three heads. Like I said, that's just how I see it.
And the name of the technique, 'demon energy: Nine Sword Syle' that just sounds like it's a manafestation technique of Zoro's demonic aura, or something, and not speed; the name even shows that he may well be using nine swords. Also, didn't the Asura manafest itself during Kaku's onslaught? I just don't really see how the speed thing would seemingly work itself out like that in that situation. I've already stated my theories, so, I won't blabber on about what I think.
(in the Dragonball or Naruto chakra sense)
Well, of couse not in the DBZ, and Naruto sence. Zoro's Ki has a more realistic value to it, but not very realistic. And hell, Kaku even said that his "Flow of ki was like that of a demon;" that's my evidence, anyway.
Here's something interesting:
[qimg]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/onemoment1985/op_297_14.jpg[/qimg]
The golden Pelony. Luffy makes what appears to be dozens of his arm and the golden ball stuck to it. No "speed lines" like in Gomu gomu no gatling (at least not in that last panel, the one I want to focus on), just what seems to be multiple arms. Yet, the explaination for this clearly must be speed.
I imagine the "Asura" is similar to this move. With speed Zoro creates an illusion of multiple arms and heads.
And yes, Zoro's neck is probably strong enough to do this.
This all sounds okay, but I think what I mentioned speed lines in another post. In the "Golden Pelony" Panel, Luffy appears to have made multiple arms and gold spheres without the speed lines. They just aren't there.
Well the upside of the whole debate is at least weve moved from "What just happened!?" to "Which explanation do I go with till Oda explains it" - cause we really have a number of reasonable explanation on hand due to this discussion
Well the upside of the whole debate is at least weve moved from "What just happened!?" to "Which explanation do I go with till Oda explains it" - cause we really have a number of reasonable explanation on hand due to this discussion
Indeed we do. And now, we all know a thing, or two, about Hindu mythology; another upside.
cp9 left:
how will luffy beat lucci in the end???
will the 3rd gear enough to beat lucci?
cp9 left:
- lucci
- spanda
how will luffy beat lucci in the end???
will the 3rd gear enough to beat lucci?
Thank you for finally changing the subject.:happy:
I wonder if Luffy's gear 3 verses Lucci's beast man Zoana will make it look like David and Goliath in their battle.
i don't think gear 3 will be enough since it seemed to me like gear two was just enough to beat bluneo since luffy thought he would have to use gear 3
i don't think gear 3 will be enough since it seemed to me like gear two was just enough to beat bluneo since luffy thought he would have to use gear 3
Gear 1 was outclassing Blueno. Gear 2 completley decimated him. And besides, the gears are far from linear. Gear 1 might help in some situations Gear 3 could never touch.
@Octogon:
Gear 1 was outclassing Blueno. Gear 2 completley decimated him. And besides, the gears are far from linear. Gear 1 might help in some situations Gear 3 could never touch.
Correct me if i'm wrong but … wasn't Luffy about to show Blueno gear 2 when Blueno fell to the ground, defeated?
Correct me if i'm wrong but … wasn't Luffy about to show Blueno gear 2 when Blueno fell to the ground, defeated?
That was gear 3.
Well, when I look at the image, I see no speed lines, or anything like that, that would signafy high speed movement going on. It looks, to me, like Zoro is standing there with six arms, and three heads. Like I said, that's just how I see it.
Then your saying Zoro also grew swords, sleeves, and bandannas.
@Octogon:
Gear 1 was outclassing Blueno. Gear 2 completley decimated him. [[/FONT]quote]
Why does people keep saying this? in chapter 383 he landed two hits, sure, but I think we've all agreed that Blueno underestimated Luffy. In chapter 385, Luffy was completely on the defensive, saying things like "Waah" and "shit!" and getting trapped. And in 387 they were completely even, neither damaged or sweating.
Theres no doubt gear 1 Luffy could have won in time, but You're not giving Blueno enough credit.
Luffy was above Blueno's level. There is no way he couldv'e won. The only hit Blueno got on luffy was the door. And Luffy dodged Blueno even when he had a door on his face. If's thats noot out classing I don't know what is.
This all sounds okay, but I think what I mentioned speed lines in another post. In the "Golden Pelony" Panel, Luffy appears to have made multiple arms and gold spheres without the speed lines. They just aren't there.
But that's when he's swinging his arms around. Zorro keeps all arms visible while running and even after attacking without a single speed line.
@Sven:
But that's when he's swinging his arms around. Zorro keeps all arms visible while running and even after attacking without a single speed line.
Yeah, so what if Zoro can walk around like that? I still think that Golden Pelony and Asura are similar techniques. Zoro just is skilled to the point where he can walk for a few seconds while moving his upper body so fast that it produces more arms and heads.
I'm just saying, in that panel Oda didn't draw the speed lines but still drew multiple arms and gold spheres for Luffy's attack. I think the same thing happened here.
…I can't wait for 418 to come out.
Yo when you talk about ougon peony or Kaku s attack –> that s speed ok everyone agrees on that
BUT
When Zoro achieved his attack , Kaku is cut in pieces he s behind him why does he need to do speed movements to keep the illusion WHY?
and if you want to explain everything with speed , explain to me how speed can make his swords look bent in his enbima yonezu oni giri attack.
To me it s simple his spirit/ki/..... became so powerfull that he s able to influence his surroundings
Like in Rurouni Kenshin when he fought against shishiyo makoto he could make leaves fly with his ki and shishiyo enraged the flames around them with his ki so it s simple as that.
Then your saying Zoro also grew swords, sleeves, and bandannas.
I don't see how he couldn't, if it was some kind of temporary "Solid Illusion."
I don't even know why I'm still arguing, the subject has been changed, anyway.
Wow…that chapter was good. Japanese people likes to use the three-headed-six-arm diety/demon/whatever alot. I saw something similiar in Ranma 1/2. At least it's close to the end for this fight. Can't wait to see them get off that island fast, with Robin.
@silent0listener:
Wow…that chapter was good. Japanese people likes to use the three-headed-six-arm diety/demon/whatever alot. I saw something similiar in Ranma 1/2. At least it's close to the end for this fight. Can't wait to see them get off that island fast, with Robin.
Spandam is going to be so dead when they all show up at the Bridge of Hesitation…
The look on his face will be priceless when he sees all 8 Straw Hats in front of him, with weapons ready....
Yo when you talk about ougon peony or Kaku s attack –> that s speed ok everyone agrees on that
BUT
When Zoro achieved his attack , Kaku is cut in pieces he s behind him why does he need to do speed movements to keep the illusion WHY?
Maybe that's just Zoro winding down his attack in slow-motion (it's possible that a panel could be portraying things in slow motion) and what we see are the after images of that. When someone achieves super speed, they can't just immediately stop. There needs to be some deceleration.
and if you want to explain everything with speed , explain to me how speed can make his swords look bent in his enbima yonezu oni giri attack.
The same way CP9 use kami to make their bodies look twisted and bent.
The same way CP9 use kami to make their bodies look twisted and bent.
That's not speed. If anything, techniques like Kami, Tekkai, Moon step, etc. are best explained by the use of Chi.
That's not speed. If anything, techniques like Kami, Tekkai, Moon step, etc. are best explained by the use of Chi.
Geppou was already explained as a technique that involves rapidly kicking in the same place 10 times, or something to that effect.
And I think Kami has to do with the martial arts philosophy of moving fast and fluid like water. Except Kami is at a whole different level.
Not sure how Tekkai works but it probably has something to do with body conditioning and muscle control.
Geppou was already explained as a technique that involves rapidly kicking in the same place 10 times, or something to that effect.
And I think Kami has to do with the martial arts philosophy of moving quick and fluid like water. Except Kami is at a whole different level.
Not sure how Tekkai works but it probably has something to do with body conditioning and muscle control.
Actually, Soru was explained as kicking 10 times. Geppou has had no such explaination.
Damn, how does anyone explain Geppou?
Actually, Soru was explained as kicking 10 times. Geppou has had no such explaination.
That's right. My mistake.
Damn, how does anyone explain Geppou?
Perhaps it's done in the same way Soru is done? Seems logical.
Maybe Geppou is done by using tekkai outside your body, solidifying the air, then kicking off it. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's a theory.
Anyway, slightly off topic, but aren't most of the CP9 going to die? I'm pretty sure that most of them aren't going to get up in the next ten minutes. The only few I can see surviving are Spandam (Gates of Justice) Kumadori (got knocked back to the courthouse) and Blueno (also at the courthouse). All the others are probably going to get caught up in the Buster Call. No Kaku, don't die!
Anyway, slightly off topic, but aren't most of the CP9 going to die? I'm pretty sure that most of them aren't going to get up in the next ten minutes. The only few I can see surviving are Spandam (Gates of Justice) Kumadori (got knocked back to the courthouse) and Blueno (also at the courthouse). All the others are probably going to get caught up in the Buster Call. No Kaku, don't die!
They'll be fine, and eventually, we will probably see a cover story on them.