Things That You Would Like to See in the Manga

[Darth]

@kcity:

I agree that the Marines don't seem to be as strong of a force as they should be. There's still the Gorosei and Kong though, they seem to be more than just weak people in high positions. I also stand by Coby getting way stronger as well, but we'll see.

Neither of them seem to be be actually taking part in action. They are probably strong fighters, but I don't expect them to take part directly before the series reaches final arc.

Sabo stopping Fujitora basicaly tells us that this is a New World and Oda can just pull that trick whenever he wants. Which kills any tension Admiral appearing could have. Rank itself is not enough. Implied strength is not enough.

@kcity:

Why is it such a stretch though? I don't know what the outcome of the fight will be, but I don't see it being that much of a stretch really. Ace already fought on par with Aokiji and as a commander of Whitebeard was an equal to Marco and Vista, who held their own against an Admiral and the worlds strongest swordsman respectively. Sabo who was pretty much equal to Ace, has two years on him, inherited his devil fruit and seems to have trained under Dragon directly as well. So he doesn't rely as much on his devil fruit as Ace did, but still has those powers to top it off.

Ace had elemental advantage over Aokiji, and he managed to tie. When the situation was reversed, he went down instantly.

And commanders… let's not talk about commanders.

[kcity]

@LightningAce:

Ace got his ass handed to him by Akainu, and Ao Kiji on the other hand fought him for 10 days before he was beaten, so its pretty clear if Kuzan had actually gone all out against Ace, he'd have whooped his ass pretty badly.

I dun think Sabo is quite there yet, but almost. He just needs to master his new powers and that will take him up a few levels without a doubt…

I agree that Aokiji would beat Ace, Akainu beat him as badly as he did because of their fruits and Ace protecting Luffy though. I just mentioned as Ace already nearing admiral level to some degree. Sabo seems to be ahead of Ace by a lot already with his added years and powers as I explained. I agree he isn't quite there yet, but almost, it's just far from being a stretch.

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@Darth:

Neither of them seem to be be actually taking part in action. They are probably strong fighters, but I don't expect them to take part directly before the series reaches final arc.

Sabo stopping Fujitora basicaly tells us that this is a New World and Oda can just pull that trick whenever he wants. Which kills any tension Admiral appearing could have. Rank itself is not enough. Implied strength is not enough.

Ace had elemental advantage over Aokiji, and he managed to tie. When the situation was reversed, he went down instantly.

And commanders… let's not talk about commanders.

If Ace had the elemental advantage over Aokiji, then so did Akainu against Aokiji. So that comparison goes right out of the window. Let's not go into commanders indeed, it was only to prove Ace was somewhat worthy already and Sabo being ahead of Ace.

[Darth]

@LightningAce:

Ace got his ass handed to him by Akainu, and Ao Kiji on the other hand fought him for 10 days before he was beaten, so its pretty clear if Kuzan had actually gone all out against Ace, he'd have whooped his ass pretty badly.

I dun think Sabo is quite there yet, but almost. He just needs to master his new powers and that will take him up a few levels without a doubt…

And then he will take on all three of the admirals, and Dragon will wipe WG singlehandedly.

How the fuck goverment still exists? Twenty years olds are capable of stopping their highest ranking officers, and their pirate servants do more harm then good. They have thousands of pirates, plus revolutionaries, plus Yonkou that are class in and of itself, as enemies.

They only have three Admirals, the rest of the entire force being basicaly mooks, incapable of catching any strong pirates.

They should be burned to the ground by now!

[kcity]

@Darth:

And then he will take on all three of the admirals, and Dragon will wipe WG singlehandedly.

How the fuck goverment still exists? Twenty years olds are capable of stopping their highest ranking officers, and their pirate servants do more harm then good. They have thousands of pirates, plus revolutionaries, plus Yonkou that are class in and of itself, as enemies.

They only have three Admirals, the rest of the entire force being basicaly mooks, incapable of catching any strong pirates.

This I agree with, they need a major boost. Oda will take care of that somehow though…

[airy-0]

@kcity:

Why is it such a stretch though? I don't know what the outcome of the fight will be, but I don't see it being that much of a stretch really. Ace already fought on par with Aokiji and as a commander of Whitebeard was an equal to Marco and Vista, who held their own against an Admiral and the worlds strongest swordsman respectively. Sabo who was pretty much equal to Ace, has two years on him, inherited his devil fruit and seems to have trained under Dragon directly as well. So he doesn't rely as much on his devil fruit as Ace did, but still has those powers to top it off.

It's not a big stretch, he should be able to clash with an admiral pretty well, but saying they are completely equal would mean Fuji is too weak. And I don't think Akainu would pick a weak Admiral.
Ace pre-TS was pretty weak outside his DF powers, and even with just DF he lost to Akainu pretty easily as said above.
Sabo would've been stronger than Ace to begin with, or he had a massive asspull powerup.
It's possible Sabo was stronger, but he's really young to stand toe to toe with admirals yet I feel, and he's not even the protagonist.

@Darth:

Machiavellan is not evil.

It's amoral.

But even from amoral standpoint (And I should know, being a machiavellan myself), this plan is not good. It sacrifices many people, for questionable benefits.

Doflamingo admited to wanting to kill the entire country in front of thousands, not to mention WG agents and Marines among his toys.

He is hardly minimizing casualties here.

Having read The Prince, if someone is fully following Machiavellian ideals, that person is a at least a sociopath and is probably a evil dude.
Mingo is a much better example of being Machiavellian. Hell the best example is probably Akainu.

The world government gives almost no fks about what Shichibukais do most of the time. Dressrosa is only a small island kingdom, Alabasta was a country with several major cities and the marines didn't do anything until the civil war had ended. WG agents and marines are fodders and Akainu wouldn't blink an eye even if they die.
Remember when Doflamingo first arrived in Dressrosa? Marines give no fks. Until that is, when one of their admirals can provide massive evidence and shows the result of Mingo's actions.

Also do you really believe everyone in Dressrosa is going to die? Cause that's not gonna happen, not even close.

[Darth]

@kcity:

This I agree with, they need a major boost. Oda will take care of that somehow though…

Fujitora IS the major boost. It was said, multiple times, that the conscription is part of what made Marines stronger then ever before. Only that isn't the case.

I do not trust Oda with the marines. At all. Not after PH, and not after insane ramblings of Fujitora.

[God of Skypeia]

@Darth:

And then he will take on all three of the admirals, and Dragon will wipe WG singlehandedly.

How the fuck goverment still exists? Twenty years olds are capable of stopping their highest ranking officers, and their pirate servants do more harm then good. They have thousands of pirates, plus revolutionaries, plus Yonkou that are class in and of itself, as enemies.

They only have three Admirals, the rest of the entire force being basicaly mooks, incapable of catching any strong pirates.

They should be burned to the ground by now!

The World Government has forces other than the Marines that haven't been showcased yet. The introduction of Kong and CP Aegis Zero is teasing that the Marines are not the full extent of their power.

[Darth]

@airy-0:

Having read The Prince, if someone is fully following Machiavellian ideals, that person is a at least a sociopath and is probably a evil dude.
Mingo is a much better example of being Machiavellian. Hell the best example is probably Akainu.

Having studied The Prince, Discourses and other work of Machiavelli, I wholehearthedly disagree. Especially with Mingo being Machiavellan.

Akainu is probably the closest anyone in this series come to being truly Machiavellan. And I think he is a psychopath, but no evil.

@airy-0:

The world government gives almost no fks about what Shichibukais do most of the time. Dressrosa is only a small island kingdom, Alabasta was a country with several major cities and the marines didn't do anything until the civil war had ended. WG agents and marines are fodders and Akainu wouldn't blink an eye even if they die.

Remember when Doflamingo first arrived in Dressrosa? Marines give no fks. Until that is, when one of their admirals can provide massive evidence and shows the result of Mingo's actions.

Also do you really believe everyone in Dressrosa is going to die? Cause that's not gonna happen, not even close.

So what evidence is Fujitora going to gather? What is his plan? How can Doflamingo incrimate himself further?

You are making very little sense with this, sorry to say.

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@God:

The World Government has forces other than the Marines that haven't been showcased yet. The introduction of Kong and CP Aegis Zero is teasing that the Marines are not the full extent of their power.

And the Admirals are called Goverment Strongest Weapon because they have many other stronger at their disposal, I suppose?

Come on. You are grasping.

[kcity]

@airy-0:

It's not a big stretch, he should be able to clash with an admiral pretty well, but saying they are completely equal would mean Fuji is too weak. And I don't think Akainu would pick a weak Admiral.
Ace pre-TS was pretty weak outside his DF powers, and even with just DF he lost to Akainu pretty easily as said above.
Sabo would've been stronger than Ace to begin with, or he had a massive asspull powerup.
It's possible Sabo was stronger, but he's really young to stand toe to toe with admirals yet I feel, and he's not even the protagonist.

The reason he lost as badly as he did was because he both protected Luffy and Akainu's devil fruit was the superior to Ace's. I already explained in the post you quoted why Sabo is a lot stronger than Ace though.

@Darth:

Fujitora IS the major boost. It was said, multiple times, that the conscription is part of what made Marines stronger then ever before. Only that isn't the case.

I do not trust Oda with the marines. At all. Not after PH, and not after insane ramblings of Fujitora.

I just think either Oda will boost the Marines a lot more when necessary ( Green Bull, Coby, Ass Pull) or the Marines indeed will become less significant and will be substituted by the yonkou and pirates like Kidd.

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@Darth:

And the Admirals are called Goverment Strongest Weapon because they have many other stronger at their disposal, I suppose?

Come on. You are grasping.

Can you show where they said that? They might have said the Marines' strongest weapon.

[Darth]

@kcity:

Can you show where they said that? They might have said the Marines' strongest weapon.

I'm pretty sure both Gorosei and Robin refer to them as such. Chapters 303 and 319 respectively, but I would advise tracking down volumes. I have yet to find scans of good quality for those chapters.

[airy-0]

@kcity:

The reason he lost as badly as he did was because he both protected Luffy and Akainu's devil fruit was the superior to Ace's. I already explained in the post you quoted why Sabo is a lot stronger than Ace though.

Ace shielding Luffy with his own body shows that he isn't strong enough to clash with Akainu when Akainu was serious. Otherwise he could redirected the attack like Rayleigh did to Kizaru, but since Ace had no haki he couldn't.
Yeah I believe Sabo had to be stronger than Ace if he's admiral level now.

@Darth:

Having studied The Prince, Discourses and other work of Machiavelli, I wholehearthedly disagree. Especially with Mingo being Machiavellan.

Akainu is probably the closest anyone in this series come to being truly Machiavellan. And I think he is a psychopath, but no evil.

So what evidence is Fujitora going to gather? What is his plan? How can Doflamingo incrimate himself further?

You are making very little sense with this, sorry to say.

Committing genocide in Ohara is evil, even if he wasn't the one in charge. He was the one who wanted to make sure everyone was killed.
At Marineford, he executes an innocent marines, and almost Coby.
We can't argue what we think is moral/evil. Everyone has different opinions/definitions.
Perhaps the reason behind Mingo's actions isn't very Machiavellian, but his actions and cunning portrays someone who is. Maybe that doesn't count.

How can Doflomingo incriminate himself further? People dying and a high level marine officer doing something about it.

All Fuji needs is to present the death toll on top of what the Joker does in underground, arms deals to incite war and his secret take over of Dressrosa. Akainu can't risk getting rid of another Admiral, and people will start to notice more and more problems with Shichibukai system.

As for what Fuji's actual plan is, who knows just wait for it.

ps. I thought Kong is the head of the army? Could be wrong tho.

[kcity]

@Darth:

I'm pretty sure both Gorosei and Robin refer to them as such. Chapters 303 and 319 respectively, but I would advise tracking down volumes. I have yet to find scans of good quality for those chapters.

Still, even lackluster scans won't be quick to translate marines as world government or vice versa. Both those references as they are in the 'non quality' scans now that I've read, they make it seem as Robin and the Gorosei talk about them as the strongest Marines. So for the time being they definitely aren't proven to be the strongest in the World Government, so God of Skypiea is definitely not grasping as of yet.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@airy-0:

Ace shielding Luffy with his own body shows that he isn't strong enough to clash with Akainu when Akainu was serious. Otherwise he could redirected the attack like Rayleigh did to Kizaru, but since Ace had no haki he couldn't.
Yeah I believe Sabo had to be stronger than Ace if he's admiral level now.

It's why I said 'as bad as he did'. He would have lost regardless.

[Darth]

@airy-0:

Committing genocide in Ohara is evil, even if he wasn't the one in charge. He was the one who wanted to make sure everyone was killed.

Arguable.

@airy-0:

At Marineford, he executes an innocent marines, and almost Coby.

Desertion and Mutiny were crimes, last time I checked. Punishable by death. In modern, democratic, first world countries.

@airy-0:

We can't argue what we think is moral/evil. Everyone has different opinions/definitions.

I know, I study the bloody things. Hell, by some definitions, there is not a single good, moral, person in the entirety of One Piece.

@airy-0:

Perhaps the reason behind Mingo's actions isn't very Machiavellian, but his actions and cunning portrays someone who is. Maybe that doesn't count.

Problem with that is that intention counts for a lot in Machiavellan political philosophy. And if we consider his current actions, he basicaly tries to recreate State of Nature, as protrayed by Hobbes. Some of his methods might be consider Machiavellan in workings, but in principle he is not a Machiavellan.

@airy-0:

How can Doflomingo incriminate himself further? People dying and a high level marine officer doing something about it.

All Fuji needs is to present the death toll on top of what the Joker does in underground, arms deals to incite war and his secret take over of Dressrosa. Akainu can't risk getting rid of another Admiral, and people will start to notice more and more problems with Shichibukai system.

How does Fuji tries to prevent the death toll? As far as I know, he doesn't do anything towards that. And he already has the evidence of his secret dealings and arms deals. Why explicitly forbid going after Doflamingo though?

@airy-0:

ps. I thought Kong is the head of the army? Could be wrong tho.

He is CiC. What does that mean, it's anyone's guess.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@kcity:

Still, even lackluster scans won't be quick to translate marines as world government or vice versa. Both those references as they are in the 'non quality' scans now that I've read, they make it seem as Robin and the Gorosei talk about them as the strongest Marines. So for the time being they definitely aren't proven to be the strongest in the World Government, so God of Skypiea is definitely not grasping as of yet.

Scans I've read, Gorosei refer to Aokiji as the strongest man in headquoters period, which instantly makes me doubt them.

Robin, however, refers to them as WG strongest assault force, so, it's fifty-fifty.

[kcity]

@Darth:

Robin, however, refers to them as WG strongest assault force, so, it's fifty-fifty.

The scan you refer to says: "Those three men are crowned the title 'ultimate assault force' by the World Government, and he is one of them". Which doesn't say they are the strongest in the World Government at all. It's just a statement by the World Government. Ultimate assault of what? The World Govenrment or the Marines? Or maybe just of Marine HQ? It leaves it up to debate. Even the term 'ultimate assault force' arguably doesnt equal strongest either.

Coupled with the Gorosei's statement, as it stands, the admirals being the World Governments strongest is nothing more than a possibility

[Darth]

@kcity:

The scan you refer to says: "Those three men are crowned the title 'ultimate assault force' by the World Government, and he is one of them". Which doesn't say they are the strongest in the World Government at all. It's just a statement by the World Government. Ultimate assault of what? The World Govenrment or the Marines? Or maybe just of Marine HQ? It leaves it up to debate. Even the term 'ultimate assault force' arguably doesnt equal strongest either.

Coupled with the Gorosei's statement, as it stands, the admirals being the World Governments strongest is nothing more than a possibility

So you are suggesting that they just happen to have many others hidden about?

There is a limit to asspulls, you know?

[airy-0]

@Darth:

Desertion and Mutiny were crimes, last time I checked. Punishable by death. In modern, democratic, first world countries.

Problem with that is that intention counts for a lot in Machiavellan political philosophy. And if we consider his current actions, he basicaly tries to recreate State of Nature, as protrayed by Hobbes. Some of his methods might be consider Machiavellan in workings, but in principle he is not a Machiavellan.

How does Fuji tries to prevent the death toll? As far as I know, he doesn't do anything towards that. And he already has the evidence of his secret dealings and arms deals. Why explicitly forbid going after Doflamingo though?

Desertion nowadays is mainly punished by imprisonment, but theoretically it's possible to be executed, but hasn't happened in the States since ww2.
Considering that the punishment is theoretically harsh is due to the risk the action present to fellow soldiers, but in this case 2 fodders makes no difference anyway. Public execution is unnecessary.

Yep, Akainu is a much better example.

He told his troops to stop those who are under control by the birdcage, but that's it. I meant that he needs a number of casualties to present to WG.

If he goes after Doflamingo he'd allying himself with revolutionaries and pirates, that's unacceptable in the present day WG, especially as an admiral.
Not to mention how many more people would die if his fodder troops go with him and leaving the controlled citizens behind.

[kcity]

@Darth:

So you are suggesting that they just happen to have many others hidden about?

There is a limit to asspulls, you know?

Both the Gorosei and Kong seem to be more than just higher ups, looking at their designs. Kong as the highest ranked Marine, and the Marines pretty much following rank=strength standards support him to be at least significantly strong. They also got introduced early enough so that they wouldn't be considered asspulls.

I'm not hoping for anymore asspulls either by the way, I'm just saying it's not set in stone yet. I mean we pretty much agree that the World Government/Marines needs another major boost. You just don't see it happening at all while I'm still 'hoping' for it, that's all.

[RamistaR]

To be fair, trying to justify the Old Gambler's current behavior is just as wrong as saying that he isn't important to the story. (IMO)

[Darth]

@airy-0:

Desertion nowadays is mainly punished by imprisonment, but theoretically it's possible to be executed, but hasn't happened in the States since ww2.
Considering that the punishment is theoretically harsh is due to the risk the action present to fellow soldiers, but in this case 2 fodders makes no difference anyway. Public execution is unnecessary.

It was unnecessary, but I do not think Akainu was out of line there. Especially since we judge him according to current moral and legal standarts, when he himself lives in the world that seems closer to XVI, XVII, at best XVIII century in that regard. And laws were quite a bit more harsh during those days.

Coby, however… even in current law, commanding officer is punishable by law if he doesn't actively stop the mutiny. So definetly not out of line there.

@airy-0:

Yep, Akainu is a much better example.

On that we agree.

@airy-0:

He told his troops to stop those who are under control by the birdcage, but that's it. I meant that he needs a number of casualties to present to WG.

If he goes after Doflamingo he'd allying himself with revolutionaries and pirates, that's unacceptable in the present day WG, especially as an admiral.
Not to mention how many more people would die if his fodder troops go with him and leaving the controlled citizens behind.

Why not go after all of them, then? This plan is stupid because there is a high chance that revolutionaries and pirates DON'T succed in defeating Doflamingo. And what then?

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@RamistaR:

To be fair, trying to justify the Old Gambler's current behavior is just as wrong as saying that he isn't important to the story. (IMO)

He is important only because of what we think he might do.

And when was the last time a Marine succeded at moraly sound goal?

And his current behavior is either insane or stupid, so I will give you that.

[Shadowgreed]

[hide][/hide]

[kcity]

@Shadowgreed:

[hide]http://gatlinburgspaceneedle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/pointing-up-bw-CAS.jpg[/hide]

! Up?

[airy-0]

@Darth:

It was unnecessary, but I do not think Akainu was out of line there. Especially since we judge him according to current moral and legal standarts, when he himself lives in the world that seems closer to XVI, XVII, at best XVIII century in that regard. And laws were quite a bit more harsh during those days.

Coby, however… even in current law, commanding officer is punishable by law if he doesn't actively stop the mutiny. So definetly not out of line there.

Why not go after all of them, then? This plan is stupid because there is a high chance that revolutionaries and pirates DON'T succed in defeating Doflamingo. And what then?

Well in the earlier days the amount of desertion is rampant whenever possible, pretending to be dead was very popular.
Coby was just a basic soldier in Marineford since most of the marines there were "elite" marines.

They are going after them as well, but were stopped by Sabo. It would be much easier for him if the pirates/revolutionaries fight it out with Mingo first, then taking the victory by defeating whoever was left. Then it becomes a great victory for the Marines as well as a start to the end of Shichibukais. He also need to go to where Koala was to seize the evidence.

[God of Skypeia]

Darth is right. Desertion is tantamount to murder in war. Akainu did what he had to do. Making an example like that discourages desertion.

[drew8324]

Guns Guns Guns Guns. Bounty Hunter and Gun Use no one strong we have seen use a gun in a "Important" fights. Like no one see's them are use full on top of that no one uses df in conjunction with their fighting abilities or once a df is achieved they totally forget their old fighting styles. Also we need more Skypieans and Poneglyph action or talk. And a More violent non-kid friendly content. Make some of these Pirates vile and crude like real ones.(Seriously Caesar used his super "bomb" to "kill" everyone but we find out their alive -_-. And Marine with Conqueror's haki i swear like every bad pirates it But no Marines????

[Darth]

Guns were used to kill Whitebeard… :ninja:

Of course, the guy can shrug off anything Marines throw at him, but few stabs and bullets from pirates? He goes down.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

Guns were used to kill Whitebeard… :ninja:

Of course, the guy can shrug off anything Marines throw at him, but few stabs and bullets from pirates? He goes down.

Oh dear lord, Darth, you have to stop this.

Nobody likes to listen to a broken record.

Especially a biased broken record.

[RamistaR]

Seriously Darth, you're supposed to like the marines more than anyone else, yet you're the only guy who sees them as losers.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

Oh dear lord, Darth, you have to stop this.

Nobody likes to listen to a broken record.

Especially a biased broken record.

Oh by the gods, you are not going to argue that it was somehow earned? Whitebeard cared not for bullets, cannonballs, and bloody magma up until Blackbeard showed up.

I'm well aware that it was purpoesly done, but it doesn't make it any less stupid.

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@RamistaR:

Seriously Darth, you're supposed to like the marines more than anyone else, yet you're the only guy who sees them as losers.

I'm sorry, and you see them anything but because…?

If someone fails, constantly, they are losers. As simple as that. They are given consolation prizes, constantly, for you to be manipulated into thinking they are serious opponents. They are not.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

Oh by the gods, you are not going to argue that it was somehow earned? Whitebeard cared not for bullets, cannonballs, and bloody magma up until Blackbeard showed up.

I'm well aware that it was purpoesly done, but it doesn't make it any less stupid.

His illness and being impaled, shot, hit with cannonballs, having half his face blown off etc. brought him to the edge.

A one way 8 vs. 1 wild west shoot out put him over the edge.

It's not really that ridiculous.

He had already collapsed during the battle more than once, and shown damage from grievous wounds.

It's not like he tanked every attack and then out of nowhere a few bullets killed him.

C'mon man.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

His illness and being impaled, shot, hit with cannonballs, having half his face blown off etc. brought him to the edge.

A one way 8 vs. 1 wild west shoot out put him over the edge.

It's not really that ridiculous.

He had already collapsed during the battle more than once, and shown damage from grievous wounds.

It's not like he tanked every attack and then out of nowhere a few bullets killed him.

C'mon man.

He made more powerful counter-attack after every previous wound he got, and he was still going strong, and show no signs of stopping, up until Blackbeard showed up.

And even then. One does assume that Marines shoot at him. Probably more bullets then Blackbeard and his crew. After he got all those grievous wounds.

So yeah, he literaly tanked everything up until this point, and then he get's shoot and stops coming at Blackbeard. That's what bloody happens in the story, man. There is not even an implication that he is that far gone. His strongest attack is after getting half of his head ripped off, for crying out loud.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

He made more powerful counter-attack after every previous wound he got, and he was still going strong, and show no signs of stopping, up until Blackbeard showed up.

And even then. One does assume that Marines shoot at him. Probably more bullets then Blackbeard and his crew. After he got all those grievous wounds.

So yeah, he literaly tanked everything up until this point, and then he get's shoot and stops coming at Blackbeard. That's what bloody happens in the story, man. There is not even an implication that he is that far gone. His strongest attack is after getting half of his head ripped off, for crying out loud.

He didn't tank everything though, he did actively show damage from several serious wounds and a major illness.

Just because he did the typical shonen anger powerup doesn't change that.

He pushed his body past its limits and he eventually couldn't go any further.

Also, you gotta kinda take into account that the BB's all started shooting him from about 10 feet away, rapid fire, when he was obviously at the absolutely most damaged he had been during the whole battle, compared to random marine grunts firing random shots from however far away.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

He didn't tank everything though, he did actively show damage from several serious wounds and a major illness.

Just because he did the typical shonen anger powerup doesn't change that.

He pushed his body past its limits and he eventually couldn't go any further.

Also, you gotta kinda take into account that the BB's all started shooting him from about 10 feet away, rapid fire, when he was obviously at the absolutely most damaged he had been during the whole battle, compared to random marine grunts firing random shots from however far away.

You mean, the damage was shown on him. Up until the moment he gets shot by Blackbeard's, he is shown slowing down because of illness once: When he collapses.

And he immediatly got up, and then blown away all of the marines.

I can't even enjoy wins Marines got in that arc, because every win they did got is attributed to their opponents handicap, and not the characters themselfs. Some act downright stupid, or not act at all.

Beyond Marineford, what wins do they have? I mean, really?

Antagonists must be defeated by Straw Hats.

Protagonist got plot shields.

I'm sentenced to watch Marines never succed at all, because they are neither main Heroes, nor main Antagonist. They are being kept in limbo. They can't really lose, but they can't win either.

And it pains me deeply.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

You mean, the damage was shown on him. Up until the moment he gets shot by Blackbeard's, he is shown slowing down because of illness once: When he collapses.

And he immediatly got up, and then blown away all of the marines.

I can't even enjoy wins Marines got in that arc, because every win they did got is attributed to their opponents handicap, and not the characters themselfs. Some act downright stupid, or not act at all.

Beyond Marineford, what wins do they have? I mean, really?

Antagonists must be defeated by Straw Hats.

Protagonist got plot shields.

I'm sentenced to watch Marines never succed at all, because they are neither main Heroes, nor main Antagonist. They are being kept in limbo. They can't really lose, but they can't win either.

And it pains me deeply.

I really don't understand you, Darth.

You'll fight tooth and nail when somebody says that the WB commanders were equal to the Admirals.

Yet you apparently can't take any joy from that and the victories, in your mind, aren't legitimate.

It kind of feels like you're just looking for things to complain about at this point.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

I really don't understand you, Darth.

You'll fight tooth and nail when somebody says that the WB commanders were equal to the Admirals.

Yet you apparently can't take any joy from that and the victories, in your mind, aren't legitimate.

It kind of feels like you're just looking for things to complain about at this point.

No, you misunderstand.

I feel like the victories are legitimate. I feel like marines had obvious advantage in the war.

And I feel like Oda's done everything in his power to undermine that.

I can't take joy in it precisesly because I need to fight for them to not be considered equal.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

No, you misunderstand.

I feel like the victories are legitimate. I feel like marines had obvious advantage in the war.

And I feel like Oda's done everything in his power to undermine that.

I can't take joy in it precisesly because I need to fight for them to not be considered equal.

When you really break down the results of the war, it's obvious that the admirals outclassed the commanders.

That the marines won overall.

It was presented in such a way that it wasn't quite as obvious at first glance, to keep the remainder of the WB pirates looking like major players.

It's just a balancing act.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

When you really break down the results of the war, it's obvious that the admirals outclassed the commanders.

That the marines won overall.

It was presented in such a way that it wasn't quite as obvious at first glance, to keep the remainder of the WB pirates looking like major players.

It's just a balancing act.

And then you get "But if Commanders weren't distracted" "But if Whitebeard wasn't sick" "But if Whitebeard wasn't stabbed" and other such crap.

We both saw it happen.

And again, if you have to make your characters act stupid, or out of character, for the purpoes of the plot, you fail as a storyteller, in my opinion.

Neither are silly strings of every bloody thing working towards Whitebeard and his agenda.

And now we have Admiral, leading three thousands marines, and two Vice Admirals, incapable of doing a thing.

And I'm, for some reason, expected to buy that it will all be remedied by later arcs.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

And then you get "But if Commanders weren't distracted" "But if Whitebeard wasn't sick" "But if Whitebeard wasn't stabbed" and other such crap.

We both saw it happen.

And again, if you have to make your characters act stupid, or out of character, for the purpoes of the plot, you fail as a storyteller, in my opinion.

Neither are silly strings of every bloody thing working towards Whitebeard and his agenda.

And now we have Admiral, leading three thousands marines, and two Vice Admirals, incapable of doing a thing.

And I'm, for some reason, expected to buy that it will all be remedied by later arcs.

Sorry, what particular instance of stupidity/out of character-ness are we talking about?

To be fair, I don't think the marines have actually been that bad in this arc.

Aside from a particularly underwhelming showing from Bastille (let's face it though, Sabo is just ruining everybody's fun) I'd say the marines have performed ok.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

Sorry, what particular instance of stupidity/out of character-ness are we talking about?

To be fair, I don't think the marines have actually been that bad in this arc.

Aside from a particularly underwhelming showing from Bastille (let's face it though, Sabo is just ruining everybody's fun) I'd say the marines have performed ok.

Kizaru in general, neglecting to shoot anyone dead, even though he clearly could. And then there the whole key business.

Neither Sengoku nor Garp step in to save grunts from Whitebeard, something that isn't in character for them.

Sengoku doing transformation, instead of just sending Luffy down with a punch, as Garp has done with Marco earlier.

Akainu ignoring obvious chance to kill Whiteabeard.

All three Admiral doing almost nothing in the period between Whitebeard sending Luffy forward, and Ace being freed.

Not one of them stopping Oars before he could break through walls, even though they were fully capable of doing that.

That about covers it?

Marines are perfoming… well. They are perfoming ok. Which, coincedently, is not something we would expect out of bloody Admiral.

I'm sorry. But they fared a lot better in war, and their opposition there was much stronger.

[kcity]

@Darth:

Kizaru in general, neglecting to shoot anyone dead, even though he clearly could. And then there the whole key business.

Neither Sengoku nor Garp step in to save grunts from Whitebeard, something that isn't in character for them.

Sengoku doing transformation, instead of just sending Luffy down with a punch, as Garp has done with Marco earlier.

Akainu ignoring obvious chance to kill Whiteabeard.

All three Admiral doing almost nothing in the period between Whitebeard sending Luffy forward, and Ace being freed.

Not one of them stopping Oars before he could break through walls, even though they were fully capable of doing that.

That about covers it?

Marines are perfoming… well. They are perfoming ok. Which, coincedently, is not something we would expect out of bloody Admiral.

I'm sorry. But they fared a lot better in war, and their opposition there was much stronger.

Gotta agree with the plot haki at Marineford, but there's just too many factors involved to make it work the way Oda wants the story to. The more variables you introduces, the more problems you run into, it's just part of the equation. Other writers wouldn't even try it, but Oda just does it anyway and still makes it work to some degree. People love the giant adventurous world of One Piece that is not seen in any anime/manga, therefor people cut him some slack for giving us that in place of some consistent short story.

An Admiral has pretty much been the measuring stick for a while now. Post TS and into the New World, territory of the Yonkou, the ante is upped and strong people will come closer and closer to that measuring stick that is the Admirals.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

Kizaru in general, neglecting to shoot anyone dead, even though he clearly could. And then there the whole key business.

If Kizaru does that even once, then it just opens a massive can of worms.

He does that once, and the story is totally ruined. So I can see why Oda decided to not have him do it.

So the next best thing he could do in the instance of the platform, was destroy the key that could release Ace…keeping him defenceless.

I don't see the major issue.

Also...it's BORSALINO, he's always been characterised as a total airhead.

@Darth:

Neither Sengoku nor Garp step in to save grunts from Whitebeard, something that isn't in character for them.

It's almost like Garp was wrestling with his role in the war and Ace's execution in general, and Sengoku was maintaining a tactical vantage point/guarding Ace.

@Darth:

Sengoku doing transformation, instead of just sending Luffy down with a punch, as Garp has done with Marco earlier.

He wanted to take Luffy out of the equation entirely, most likely. It's the more efficient route…Marco got back up and continued having an effect in the war didn't he?

@Darth:

Akainu ignoring obvious chance to kill Whiteabeard.

Sorry, could you show me this page? I'm not sure what particular moment you're talking about.

@Darth:

All three Admiral doing almost nothing in the period between Whitebeard sending Luffy forward, and Ace being freed.

…Weren't they all fighting/holding back more threatening New World grade opponents? I seem to remember Kizaru attempting to phase towards Luffy but then being slashed by WB, in particular.

@Darth:

Not one of them stopping Oars before he could break through walls, even though they were fully capable of doing that.

Maybe an attack of that magnitude, in that kind of enclosed space would have risked the lives of their own men? Maybe it happened to fast? Maybe they didn't want to break ranks? Maybe they didn't want to leave themselves open to a counter attack from one of the WB commanders, or WB himself? Take your pick.

@Darth:

Marines are perfoming… well. They are perfoming ok. Which, coincedently, is not something we would expect out of bloody Admiral.

Exactly, they're performing ok.

The Admiral seems to be pursuing his own agenda and is now locked into battle with a top ranked WG opponent.

I'm not disappointed with his performance in this arc.

@Darth:

I'm sorry. But they fared a lot better in war, and their opposition there was much stronger.

A war in which they had the home turf, the plans, the defensive strategy laid out in advance, a complete picture of who they'd likely be facing, secret weapons like a legion of pacifista, and pretty much every single top ranked marine at their disposal.

You can't compare an all out war between 2 world powers, that changed the era, with an incident on an island that was deemed to be just about great enough to warrant an Admiral's attention.

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

If Kizaru does that even once, then it just opens a massive can of worms.

He does that once, and the story is totally ruined. So I can see why Oda decided to not have him do it.

So the next best thing he could do in the instance of the platform, was destroy the key that could release Ace…keeping him defenceless.

I don't see the major issue.

Also...it's BORSALINO, he's always been characterised as a total airhead.

Also, quite efficient at taking people down, when he wants to.

Hell, first thing he asks when Luffy and Co. appear is permission to execute them all.

If Oda didn't want him to kill people, then he should have made that integral part of his character and not make him a ruthless individual that he appears to be.

@RobZilla:

It's almost like Garp was wrestling with his role in the war and Ace's execution in general, and Sengoku was maintaining a tactical vantage point/guarding Ace.

I will give you Garp, but he still does nothing after Ace is freed. And he does nothing to stop Whitebeard. Neither does Sengoku. The guy is rampaging through their forces and they do nothing.

@RobZilla:

He wanted to take Luffy out of the equation entirely, most likely. It's the more efficient route…Marco got back up and continued having an effect in the war didn't he?

But Luffy is not Marco. He had one shot at saving Ace, and he would've lost that if not for Sengoku going into his final form, and then taking pain inducing time to actually hit him.

@RobZilla:

Sorry, could you show me this page? I'm not sure what particular moment you're talking about.

!

Here you go.

All that was needed: One Meigo.

@RobZilla:

…Weren't they all fighting/holding back more threatening New World grade opponents? I seem to remember Kizaru attempting to phase towards Luffy but then being slashed by WB, in particular.

Nope. They don't appear at all after Luffy is revived by Iva, until Ace is freed, with the exception of Kizaru.

And, least you forget, all of the big New World grade opponents were sent to help Luffy by Whitebeard. Continuity, it's a wonderful thing.

@RobZilla:

Maybe an attack of that magnitude, in that kind of enclosed space would have risked the lives of their own men?
Maybe it happened to fast?
Maybe they didn't want to break ranks?
Maybe they didn't want to leave themselves open to a counter attack from one of the WB commanders, or WB himself?
Take your pick.

Okay, I will.

1. Ha! As if either Kizaru or Akainu care. Kizaru even gave Sentomaru permission for destroying their own warships. Akainu did that magma fist that rained vulcanic rocks over the whole battlefield. They would totaly go for it.
2. Oars take entire chapter to walk there. He fights giants on the way. Kizaru moves at the speed of light. Do the math.
And if Kuma had enough time to make his Ursus Shock bomb, then Kizaru definetly had time to move.
3. First action of Kizaru and Aokiji in the war is to break ranks. Akainu bloody calls them on it.
4. That would be true if any of them actually did anything to the accord.

@RobZilla:

Exactly, they're performing ok.

The Admiral seems to be pursuing his own agenda and is now locked into battle with a top ranked WG opponent.

I'm not disappointed with his performance in this arc.

I am. But then again, I got spoiled by Akainu.

@RobZilla:

A war in which they had the home turf, the plans, the defensive strategy laid out in advance, a complete picture of who they'd likely be facing, secret weapons like a legion of pacifista, and pretty much every single top ranked marine at their disposal.

You can't compare an all out war between 2 world powers, that changed the era, with an incident on an island that was deemed to be just about great enough to warrant an Admiral's attention.

Yes I can. Opposition hell of a lot weaker then it was at Marineford, and hometurf meant nothing once Whitebeard and Commander broke througt to the Plaza.

And in that fight in the Plaza, open fight between strongest crew of the seas, and marine Admirals, Admirals dominated.

So don't tell me that another of them being stopped by Sabo is an okay perfomance.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

Also, quite efficient at taking people down, when he wants to.

Hell, first thing he asks when Luffy and Co. appear is permission to execute them all.

If Oda didn't want him to kill people, then he should have made that integral part of his character and not make him a ruthless individual that he appears to be.

He continually makes these kind of mobid comments…but then also acts goofy and sarcastic for the other half.

We don't even really know what's going through Borsa's head.

@Darth:

I will give you Garp, but he still does nothing after Ace is freed. And he does nothing to stop Whitebeard. Neither does Sengoku. The guy is rampaging through their forces and they do nothing.

Yeah, and I already said why they were staying were they were.

@Darth:

But Luffy is not Marco. He had one shot at saving Ace, and he would've lost that if not for Sengoku going into his final form, and then taking pain inducing time to actually hit him.

Or the son of Dragon and CoC user might come back yet again.

It makes more sense to try and completely destroy him while he has that kind of proximity.

@Darth:

! http://img.batoto.net/comics/2014/06/15/o/read539e28e543a2b/img000011.png

Here you go.

All that was needed: One Meigo.

Meigo as in the thing that tore off WB's face?

At this point, we've already seen his resistance to being impaled, I doubt it's academic that WB would have died.

@Darth:

Nope. They don't appear at all after Luffy is revived by Iva, until Ace is freed, with the exception of Kizaru.

And, least you forget, all of the big New World grade opponents were sent to help Luffy by Whitebeard. Continuity, it's a wonderful thing.

Yeah, but what were the commanders doing at this point?

@Darth:

Okay, I will.

1. Ha! As if either Kizaru or Akainu care. Kizaru even gave Sentomaru permission for destroying their own warships. Akainu did that magma fist that rained vulcanic rocks over the whole battlefield. They would totaly go for it.
2. Oars take entire chapter to walk there. He fights giants on the way. Kizaru moves at the speed of light. Do the math.
And if Kuma had enough time to make his Ursus Shock bomb, then Kizaru definetly had time to move.
3. First action of Kizaru and Aokiji in the war is to break ranks. Akainu bloody calls them on it.
4. That would be true if any of them actually did anything to the accord.

Hmm, I forgot that Oars took that long to walk.

Maybe the admirals just expected a similar result to when they attacked WB initially, and the attacks were blocked by the commanders.

@Darth:

Yes I can. Opposition hell of a lot weaker then it was at Marineford, and hometurf meant nothing once Whitebeard and Commander broke througt to the Plaza.

And in that fight in the Plaza, open fight between strongest crew of the seas, and marine Admirals, Admirals dominated.

So don't tell me that another of them being stopped by Sabo is an okay perfomance.

Yeah, and the quality and quantity of Marine at MF was much greater as well.

Ok, we really need to stop you thinking about Sabo as some hick.

WG's biggest threat , second in command. He's one of the strongest in the world!

[Darth]

@RobZilla:

He continually makes these kind of mobid comments…but then also acts goofy and sarcastic for the other half.

We don't even really know what's going through Borsa's head.

Hmph. I still say going so easy on people is not in character for him.

@RobZilla:

Yeah, and I already said why they were staying were they were.

What you said makes sense until the platform was destroyed and Ace freed. Not afterwards.

@RobZilla:

Or the son of Dragon and CoC user might come back yet again.

It makes more sense to try and completely destroy him while he has that kind of proximity.

Does it also makes sense for his one blow to take three pages?

Either Sengoku's speed sucks, or it was stupidity on his part.

And if he is adamant on killing him, why simply punch him, instead of using his shockwaves?

@RobZilla:

Meigo as in the thing that tore off WB's face?

At this point, we've already seen his resistance to being impaled, I doubt it's academic that WB would have died.

He probably wouldn't, but it isn't in character for Akainu, a man notorious for overdoing things to the extreme, to simply pass the chance of ripping Whitebeards whole head off.

@RobZilla:

Yeah, but what were the commanders doing at this point?

They were ordered to help Luffy. Vista is even shown doing that.

@RobZilla:

Hmm, I forgot that Oars took that long to walk.

Maybe the admirals just expected a similar result to when they attacked WB initially, and the attacks were blocked by the commanders.

Maybe. I still think it's quite weird.

@RobZilla:

Yeah, and the quality and quantity of Marine at MF was much greater as well.

Ok, we really need to stop you thinking about Sabo as some hick.

WG's biggest threat , second in command. He's one of the strongest in the world!

I will give you quantity, but quality?

Fujitora is an Admiral. Person of true strenght among the marines. A guy that Doflamingo himself refers to as venereable beast. One of the only two Admirals to be found in the conscription that took place over entire world.

Dragon is the biggest threat because he acts against goverment directly, and not because he is the strongest, or something.

And I refuse to believe that Sabo stands there with people like Whitebeard and Rayleigh. I simply do.

[Furisu]

I'd like to see a strong crew/organization with people which don't use Devil Fruits or Haki. Basically a stronger version of the majority of the East Blue antagonists.

[RobZilla]

@Darth:

Hmph. I still say going so easy on people is not in character for him.

I suppose we'll have to disagree on this one, I don't think Borsa has ever had a particularly narrow characterisation.

@Darth:

What you said makes sense until the platform was destroyed and Ace freed. Not afterwards.

What, that he didn't instantly shoot Ace through the head? Didn't Kuzan engage Ace pretty quickly at that point?

@Darth:

Does it also makes sense for his one blow to take three pages?

It's a pretty serious attack drawn out for effect. It's not a big deal.

@Darth:

Either Sengoku's speed sucks, or it was stupidity on his part.

And if he is adamant on killing him, why simply punch him, instead of using his shockwaves?

He's transforming into a massive Buddha, I can live with that taking a little while to get done.

I suppose he thought a punch like that would be sufficient. He's pretty tactical is old Sengoku.

@Darth:

He probably wouldn't, but it isn't in character for Akainu, a man notorious for overdoing things to the extreme, to simply pass the chance of ripping Whitebeards whole head off.

Yeah, he could have used more force I suppose.

@Darth:

They were ordered to help Luffy. Vista is even shown doing that.

Yeah, but where were the other commanders who had actually been shown standing up the Admirals?

Stopping them would also qualify as helping Luffy by blocking them.

@Darth:

Maybe. I still think it's quite weird.

Yeah, I suppose.

@Darth:

I will give you quantity, but quality?

Fujitora is an Admiral. Person of true strenght among the marines. A guy that Doflamingo himself refers to as venereable beast. One of the only two Admirals to be found in the conscription that took place over entire world.

Just because Fuji is an admiral doesn't make him automatically as strong as the other Admirals that were at MF.

@Darth:

Dragon is the biggest threat because he acts against goverment directly, and not because he is the strongest, or something.

Considering that he's Garp's son, and Luffy's dad, as well as the head of the revolutionaries, I think we can safely assume that Dragon is a beast.

@Darth:

And I refuse to believe that Sabo stands there with people like Whitebeard and Rayleigh. I simply do.

I didn't say say he was.

For one thing though, Sabo is in his prime, those two weren't when we saw them fight.

I'm thinking Sabo is at least as powerful as a Yonko Commander, and they were shown to at least be able to stand against an Admiral before being eventually overwhelmed.

We've not seen how the fight between Fuji and Sabo is actually going.

[airy-0]

@God:

Darth is right. Desertion is tantamount to murder in war. Akainu did what he had to do. Making an example like that discourages desertion.

I agree about Akainu but…
You don't want to go there.

Darth you seem so depressed about the Marines, what do they have to do for you to be satisfied?

[Darth]

@airy-0:

Darth you seem so depressed about the Marines, what do they have to do for you to be satisfied?

Hmph.

One character with unique design killed or arrested without the use of their whole forces in the entire world.

And the arrest sticking. Not the whole "Oh, they got thrashed and then totaly got away, cause plot shields" kind.

Hillariously, I can already tell that this isn't going to happen. Marineford will be remembered as crowning achievement of Marines in this universe, mark my words.

[airy-0]

@Darth:

Hmph.

One character with unique design killed or arrested without the use of their whole forces in the entire world.

And the arrest sticking. Not the whole "Oh, they got thrashed and then totaly got away, cause plot shields" kind.

Hillariously, I can already tell that this isn't going to happen. Marineford will be remembered as crowning achievement of Marines in this universe, mark my words.

So like a supernova getting caught and/or killed by the marines in a skirmish or something, but unlike Bonney.

Probably.

[Darth]

@airy-0:

So like a supernova getting caught and/or killed by the marines in a skirmish or something, but unlike Bonney.

Probably.

For example, yes.

Bonney being free irks me, but I assume she made a deal with WG, or she has otherwise aquired freedom of movements, since Akainu clearly knew who she was.

That isn't going to happen. Supernova, captured or killed? If they managed to evade Light Logia Kizaru, in pre-timeskip, pre-haki world, then chances of any of them getting caught are null.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

And before anyone bring Crocodile, or something: "Arrested" as in "Defeated and taken to custody by the marines" and not "Cleaning after more succesful pirates"

[kcity]

@Darth:

Hmph.

One character with unique design killed or arrested without the use of their whole forces in the entire world.

And the arrest sticking. Not the whole "Oh, they got thrashed and then totaly got away, cause plot shields" kind.

Hillariously, I can already tell that this isn't going to happen. Marineford will be remembered as crowning achievement of Marines in this universe, mark my words.

The execution of Roger seems to be their biggest achievement, eventhough that might be even worse considering Roger turned himself in…