Adding children into a story of adults is never a good thing.
Doctor Who
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@Thousand:
My point is there hasn't been any episode that has been wow this season, that you can at least say is up there. None of them have been of the level of the Doctor Dances or Girl in the Fireplace or Eleventh Hour. Only a few have been of Impossible Astronaut or Let's kill Hitler. Most of them aren't even better than say Gridlock.
No, none of them have been Vincent and the Doctor or the Doctor's Wife. But I still say the season overall has been 7 or 8 out of 10 on every episode for the most part. No real amazing standouts, but nothing below par, and certainly nothing as bad as Love & Monsters, Fear Her, The Sound of Drums, The Curse of the Black Spot, the two parter with the Slitheen, or most of the Dalek or Cybermen material of the first couple seasons, or nearly any scene with Rose.
Also, I LOVED The Rings of Akhaten, with the song and the epic speech and the most important leaf in the world, but no one else did, so that's just me. It won't be an episode I point to in 10 years as one of the best, but I really liked it this time around. I've watched it three times now, and I rarely rewatch the show.
@Thousand:
Adding children into a story of adults is never a good thing.
It works all the time. The Doctor should hang out with kids more often, really. It's great and in character for him and he's often at his best when he's around kids.
Just not on television scheduling apparently.
So basically a lot of that was because of the child actors scheduling..damn
And apparently Moffatt changing the structure of the season arc at some point. Seems like Victorian Clara was going to be the Clara and the kids were going to be more of a subplot of the season until pretty far along.
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Chalk it up to different tastes in the end but Power of Three, Angels in Manhattan and Journey to the Centre of the Tardis are up there for me.
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Well the showrunner will change and the doctor will regenerate and the show will feel entirely different in a year or three, maybe you'll like it better then.
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@RobbyBevard:
Mostly I don't understand why there seems to be so much negative opinion towards this season, (Aside from it being gypped as a 50th anniversary year with only a handful of episodes, that complaint I get) when I've enjoyed the whole thing pretty thoroughly. The only ep I really haven't cared for was the western with the robot, but most of the season has been pretty good. Interesting concepts, high production values, great work from Smith in every episode…
But thats sort of been the case for a while now. Given that I hated a whole mess of the early NuWho, but have really liked most of Moffatt's tenure... I dunno. Maybe others are looking for something different in Who than I am. Want a different show out of it... while I'm getting exactly the show I always wanted.
I will admit to having referred to season 7 as "my least favorite season yet" back when I caught up to it last year, and I do still think that the first half of this season lacked any genuinely strong episodes, but now that you mention it, yeah, I suppose I might have been kind of harsh on it. I mean, even if Power of Three was lame as hell, Asylum made no sense, Angels Take Manhattan turned the Statue of Liberty into a Weeping Angel and then didn't even do anything with the idea (which was a ridiculous idea to begin with– How could a gigantic world-famous landmark possibly be a threat if you turn it into a creature that literally temporarily ceases to exist whenever someone looks at it?) and the remaining two episodes + the Narnia-based Christmas special were only okay at best… I suppose it was still on the whole better than season 4, which aside from Silence in the Library, Midnight, Turn Left and the presence of Donna Noble in general, was kind of a mess.
And in any case, I do think the second half has been a considerable improvement over the first. By which I mean the only episode I didn't think was all that good was Journey to the Center of the Tardis, which honestly felt like a huge waste of an interesting premise, and the whole twist with the robot-guy actually being human... Just... what the hell, writers?Oh, and season 7 part 2 shipped early, you say? (Didn't even dare to directly quote that post in case of spoilers) Well, that is very interesting indeed...
Checks his usual streaming-site to see if they have The Name of the Doctor up now
...They do not. Ah well, I suppose that means I have to instantly start avoiding every Doctor Who related topic on tha interwebz already. -
I still get all goofy giddy when I hear the title "Dinosaurs on a spaceship." The idea alone is just so fun it pretty much covers any weakness the actual episode might have had.
@Vegard:
Angels Take Manhattan turned the Statue of Liberty into a Weeping Angel and then didn't even do anything with the idea (which was a ridiculous idea to begin with– How could a gigantic world-famous landmark possibly be a threat if you turn it into a creature that literally temporarily ceases to exist whenever someone looks at it?)
Well that's the entire appeal of that idea… that something so famous and always being seen would be frozen in place constantly as a result of it's nature, that it's locked as a result of how famous it is. It's ironic and also awesome at the same time. (Also, whatever has the appearance of an angel becomes one, so postcards or tv images of it could eventually be granted that menace and it being a famous spread around the world icon....)
It moving around twice is what killed it as an idea though. Once you could see happening with the angels at full power and manipulation and as a last minute surprise twist. The giant getting around the city twice to the same building unseen is what pushed it too far.
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I've thoroughly enjoyed the 2nd half of season 7, least favorite probably being Rings of Akhaten, but it wasn't awful by any means, Smith's speech and the leaf moment still give me goosebumps. Smith's acting in general has been awesome, especially with this last episode because acting as
! 2 personas in one body fighting each other can look really redundant and stupid, yet Smith pulls it of wonderfully.
Also, how exactly were the dvds released early? As in, was it an error on behalf of the sellers like Amazon, etc.? Upon google search, all I keep seeing is that "they were shipped early to fans in the US", so was it just any site that had pre-orders?
That being said, I'm going to be cautious with anything Doc Who related online until Saturday.
@RobbyBevard:
The funny part is The Doctor's Wife wasn't really that good an episode because the villain was pure nonsense… the entire companion subplot and the overall resolution was weak... But Gaiman got to do a once-in-the-series sort of event with the talking Tardis and so its a super memorable for that part of it and he's going to be compared to every time he does anything.
I agree with the companion subplot and resolution being weak, but I didn't think the villain was all that bad, being a body-less threat. Granted, it had Aunty, Uncle and Nephew doing his work, but the idea of it taking over the TARDIS and using it to mess with Amy was just so cruel and fitting for a villain like House.
Not every episode can reinterpret 48 years of show in a one off event to make itself more special. (Thus, its great in the context of a 48 year old series, fantastic to long time fans, but only okay as a by-itself episode.) Same way not every episode can have the doctor on screen for two minutes on video tape and carry off being one of the best episodes. Its a really awkward standard to try and hold a writer to every time they go out.
Come to think of it, Gaiman's the only writer I can think of that got to dabble in the mythology of Who (talking about when he first met the TARDIS) more than any other writer, minus showrunners.
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@Vegard:
Angels Take Manhattan turned the Statue of Liberty into a Weeping Angel and then didn't even do anything with the idea (which was a ridiculous idea to begin with– How could a gigantic world-famous landmark possibly be a threat if you turn it into a creature that literally temporarily ceases to exist whenever someone looks at it?).
There was a spoiler or theory that Angels Take Manhattan was going to involve the angels turning off all the lights in order to bring the Liberty angel to life, and I guess feast on New York, which sounded like a much more exciting plot and better use of that gigantic world famous landmark that the human battery farm tripe of the actual episode.
@Vegard:
Oh, and season 7 part 2 shipped early, you say? (Didn't even dare to directly quote that post in case of spoilers) Well, that is very interesting indeed…
Checks his usual streaming-site to see if they have The Name of the Doctor up now
...They do not. Ah well, I suppose that means I have to instantly start avoiding every Doctor Who related topic on tha interwebz already.I reckon it's hype or a publicity stunt to get people talking, I think we would've been flooded with gifs and screencaps by now if it had leaked!
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I reckon it's hype or a publicity stunt to get people talking, I think we would've been flooded with gifs and screencaps by now if it had leaked!
People are trying to respect the staff wishes, same way they kept spoilers on about Clara being in Asylum of the Daleks. Also, its seems only a few copies went out and those fans are being… nice. Or just have no interest in leaking it. (I know if I got one of the advance dvds, I couldn't convert and upload the file for a torrent even if I wanted to anyway.)
Also, the BBC is reeeeally cracking down on torrents.
Also, possibility a hoax, but the BBC seems to believe videos were shipped early, so...
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I think the "We'll give you a video of SmithXTennant, if you don't spoil the episode" sounds a bit of a stunt to me. I think fake leaks are the new press releases. I'll wait until saturday, but lord help me if Clara's secret turns out to be a load of convoluted time-wimey waffle in lieu of a solid explanation I'll be a bit disappointed.
Robby, did the early draft of the Gaiman script you saw mention 3 million cybermen? I too felt they would have been a bit more intimidating if there were a smaller, yet unstoppable number, I always liked this line from Closing Time:
CYBERMAN:
When we are ready we will emerge. We will convert this planet to Cyberform.DOCTOR:
What, the six of you?CYBERMAN:
You know that is enough. You know us. You are the Doctor. -
Robby, did the early draft of the Gaiman script you saw mention 3 million cybermen? I too felt they would have been a bit more intimidating if there were a smaller, yet unstoppable number, I always liked this line from Closing Time:
I haven't seen a draft. Just those notes that I posted earlier.
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Just saw Nightmare in Silver. I really enjoyed it.
! As everyone else has, it really feels like the episode should've been fleshed out a bit more and it would've been great to see what Gaiman originally planned for it, and, yes, the kids can't kid. But aside from that, it was a good Cybermen episode, and Smith gave a great performance as usual.
@RobbyBevard:
Also, I LOVED The Rings of Akhaten, with the song and the epic speech and the most important leaf in the world, but no one else did, so that's just me.
No Robby, we all loved that. The problem is that that all took place in the last 10 mintues of the episode. The rest of the episode just really wasn't that interesting.
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! Another trailer for the up coming episode hints a bit more about Clara. She says "I was born to save the doctor"
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More pictures and text summaries have been leaking, so… yeah. Keep being beware.
Below is something actually in the trailer, so its not technically a spoiler leak by itself... but the fans being super observant fans reveals something interesting, that totally DOES make it a big spoiler.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/there-could-be-something-amazing-hidden-in-next-weeks-503083269
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@RobbyBevard:
More pictures and text summaries have been leaking, so… yeah. Keep being beware.
Below is something actually in the trailer, so its not technically a spoiler leak by itself... but the fans being super observant fans reveals something interesting, that totally DOES make it a big spoiler.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/there-could-be-something-amazing-hidden-in-next-weeks-503083269
! There's a picture on the Doctor Who Magazine website that's a spoiler if you look closely. You can see Clara in 80's clothes with the Sixth Doctor in the background.
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Spoilery image from the finale. Nothing plot related (I guess?), but a blast from the past.
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No, that's pretty obviously plot related.
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@RobbyBevard:
No, that's pretty obviously plot related.
My reasoning being
! it might just be a cameo, since that's obviously not Colin Baker but probably some similar looking actor.
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! It is just a cameo, but it is plot related indeed. And if you look at the trailer you can see Clara inserted in some footage from the Five Doctors.
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Holy Fuck. What an ending that was…..
! Do not read any further unless u watched it
! Ending on a Cliffhanger leading into the 50th aniversary…and John Hurt as the doctor?
! wtf.....who was he?
! Also, they used the River Song who died, does that mean its the last we'll see of her or will we see her again? -
Obvious twist was obvious. Except for the final one.
! John Hurt as the Valeyard Doctor?
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Come on torrent sites, update already! The episode has been over for like 10 minutes! What are you waiting for?
And no, the obvious fake uploaded 11 hours ago does not count.
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@RobbyBevard:
Come on torrent sites, update already! The episode has been over for like 10 minutes! What are you waiting for?
And no, the obvious fake uploaded 11 hours ago does not count.
Can't you like change your I.P address or something and access BBC IPlayer?
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Could you share it when you got it Robby? I wanna see!!!
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Ok, that episode totally made up for the uneveness of the season.
Holy crap at the cliffhanger.
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Can't you like change your I.P address or something and access BBC IPlayer?
…..no?
I can barely even make a torrent work.
Could you share it when you got it Robby? I wanna see!!!
They're out and about now in force. Any torrent site should have it by now. Just make sue to stick to ones within the last hour. Any older will be fake. And make sure its not an EXE file.
Dammit, I've gotten three different ones but they're all the BIG gig sized one. I want the small faster download 300 meg one, but those don't seem to want to work. Arrrg.
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@RobbyBevard:
…..no?
I can barely even make a torrent work.
They're out and about now in force. Any torrent site should have it by now. Just make sue to stick to ones within the last hour. Any older will be fake. And make sure its not an EXE file.
Dammit, I've gotten three different ones but they're all the BIG gig sized one. I want the small faster download 300 meg one, but those don't seem to want to work. Arrrg.
has free trial, very simple to use. Worth a shot and could be a lot quicker than waiting for a gig sized download.
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Usually the finales are some of the worst episodes from the season (Last of The Time Lord, Journey's End, End of Time, Wedding)
Well, this one is a stunning exception
! That spoiler from a month ago about John Hurt was true after all. I guess, like the rumor said, he's a Time War Doctor between 8 and 9
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Yeah, this is the only finale that has actually resolved properly bar perhaps doomsday.
! John Hurt, as always, was outstanding - his two lines were the best part of the episode! I get the feeling his explanation is also going to resolve how the valeyard exists. From their brief conversation, I'm guessing Hurt was the regeneration that used the Moment.
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Episode was pretty good overall. Great pacing, great writing, some great acting from Smith (rather than the usual silly overacting, he actually acted human in this episode). But that ending…I'm sorry but who was that guy?
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You don't know the actor or you don't know the role he was playing?
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I don't know anything. Is the name of the actor important? He was just some guy to me. What are the implications of this epic twist that everyone keeps going on about? I don't know. Who is he?
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! -Hurt's name appearing on screen is just to increase anticipation for November. He's a very famous actor in the UK.
-The implications - to me at least - are that the doctor had a regeneration between McGann and Eccleston that he has blocked out, probably because he ended the time war in a way that the doctor wouldn't. It also picks up on the doctor talking about choosing a name, as touched upon when tennant explained about The Master a few years back during that arc. It also touched upon the valeyard, another name the doctor has chosen somehow, sometime. To get the most out of this you have to have watched Who since its return(this is all RTD stuff), and for bonus anticipation, Trial of a Timelord from the ill-fated Colin Baker era. -
Oh, that's interesting. I figured it was something like that given how the Doctor seemed to have been repulsed by the guy. I was just worried that he was someone that everyone knew exactly who he was. That's cool then. Looking forward to the 50th anniversary then
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Well, that was a hell of a thing.
The two big surprises (at the start and the at the end) I already knew.
But still. A hell of a thing.
! The opening video insert into old clips was rather nice, even played multiple times. Still not as good as a full blown walk on by the still living actors, but… very nice all the same. Knew it was coming due to the obsessive fans noting the five doctors footage and Colin Baker and such, but still.
! The entire middle was all very solid, and did nicely to help tie together the entire otherwise loose season. If that's the true final farewell for River, it's a good sendoff. I think pretty much everything with her has been covered now... even if the sonic screwdriver handoff is only on a dvd bonus feature.
! As for the ending...
! I can't believe the crazy ass fan theories based on a COAT from one set pic turned out to be true. Well, I can believe it, but it seemed like such crazy-man talk.
! And hey, name dropping the Valeyard. Nice. Moffatt's pretended for years he didn't want to drudge up that particular ancient history, but… there it is.
! Also, since he's probably time-war based... makes sense that only the doctors after that would be involved in the actual special. And if he does horrible horrific stuff that's not kosher with the chosen name of the doctor, he can still be a lost regeneration without changing the numbering. Nice and tidy.
! It'll put some new context on the first episode of NuWho where Eccleston is looking at his new face for the first time.... -
@Thousand:
Is the name of the actor important? He was just some guy to me. What are the implications of this epic twist that everyone keeps going on about? I don't know. Who is he?
!
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http://doctorwhotv.co.uk/moffat-thanks-fans-for-not-spoiling-finale-49560.htm
moffat-thanks-fans-for-not-spoiling-finale
Well that was all a bit Keystone Cops, wasn’t it? Our biggest surprise, our most secret episode, a revelation about the Doctor that changes everything…
… and we’d have got away with it too, if we hadn’t accidentally sent Blu Ray copies of Name Of The Doctor to 210 Doctor Who fans in America.
Erm – security-wise, that’s not GOOD, is it? I mean, it’s not top notch, it’s hard to defend as professional level, hard-line secrecy.
My favourite fact is that they’re BLU RAYS. Listen, we don’t just leak any old rubbish, we leak in high def. 1080p or nothing, that’s us. Every last pixel in beautifully rendered detail. It’s like getting caught extra naked.
But here’s the thing. Never mind us blundering fools, check out the fans. 210 of them, with the top secret episode in their grasp – and because we asked nicely, they didn’t breathe a word. Not one. Even Doctor Who websites have been closing their comments sections, just in case anyone blurts. I’m gobsmacked. I’m impressed. Actually, I’m humbled. And we are all very grateful.
Now you might be thinking, what does all this matter? It’s a plot development in the mad old fantasy world of Doctor Who, why is that important? Well of course, it’s not important, and in the scheme of things, it doesn’t matter at all. Just as it doesn’t matter when you’re telling a joke, and some idiot shouts out the punchline before you finish. It’s irritating, that’s all. It’s bad manners.
Well no bad manners here! 210 Doctor Who fans kept the secret, and many, many more fans helped. I wish I could send you all flowers, but I don’t know where you live (and given our record, you really shouldn’t be sharing private information with us.) So instead, if we can get our act together – and I forgive you for thinking that’s a BIG if – there will be a little video treat released later tonight.
10 plus 11 gives you…
Is this that video? I dunno.
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Tennet's still my favorite doctor. Matt Smith is great but Tennet brings a humanity in his performance that I don't think Matt Smith has brought (though this episode, he came damn near close). it helps that Tennet has the episodes that most explored the Doctor's humanity. Family of Blood, the God Complex, End of Time. Plus he has the two best episodes. It's going to be a pleasure seeing him again.
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the God Complex
That's a 11th Doctor story. Did you mean Waters of Mars ? (where he does have some sort of God Complex at the end, and it is indeed an excellent episode)
While my personnal all time favorite is Midnight (by Russel T. Davies), I like the 11th Doctor and the Moffat era the most.
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The ending is so cool because basically it means the 50th is going to play with a story that was hinted at oh… 24 years ago or so that we never really thought they'd get to even though it was always kind of a Really Big Deal.
I'm really kind of geeking out about that.
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Oops sorry, I meant the Lazarus Experiment. I don't know how I mixed up the two.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
@RobbyBevard:
The ending is so cool because basically it means the 50th is going to play with a story that was hinted at oh… 24 years ago or so that we never really thought they'd get to even though it was always kind of a Really Big Deal.
I'm really kind of geeking out about that.
! You mean the Time War where the Doctor killed everyone? That was never shown right?
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@Thousand:
! You mean the Time War where the Doctor killed everyone? That was never shown right?
The time war happened between the old series and the new. Yes, nothing of it was ever shown, but that's still only 8 years old. The plot thead that was hanging out there since near the end of the original series, with the Sixth Doctor…
! Was that eventually in one of his future regenerations, between the 12th and 13th, the Doctor would go majorly super nasty and became the Valeyard, who would do many, many nasty horrible things.
! So that's something that's sort of been lurking at the back of all old fan's minds for some time. Would he try to fight that future when he saw it coming? Were things like him wiping out a fleet of Cybermen, or having a dark side in "Amy Choice", or just his general darker moments… were those all signs of things to come? (Basically, A Good Man Goes to War has a lot more weight with that info behind it.) Would the show actually play with the drama of hitting regen 13 as "the last" when the time came?
! Also there was a period of time in NuWho where they didn't explicitly say which regeneration Eccleston was, so there was some doubt as to if McGann counted or if there were any more. I don't think they gave the number till Tennant, and it honestly wasn't until Moffatt's run that they started making regular references to all of the old ones.
! This of course also all tied into "Time Lords only have 13 regenerations" and led to bonus theorizing when 10 did his "send the extra energy into his hand to make a clone" trick. And stuff.
! http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Valeyard
! Basically it was a major, MAJOR thing that was sort of assumed lost to the hiatus as something no current team would really want to deal with… mostly due to it being a 24 year old plot thread that none of the new audience would get... But I'm sure they'll explain at least the gist of this this for the anniversary special... AND finally tell us how the Time War ended. Indeed, screwing over the timelords in an act where he's not even using his healer title would count.
! There's also very strong, very specific rumors that
! actual potential spoiler here...
! >! McGann has filmed a brief regeneration scene so we'll finally get to see 8 go to X… and presumably by the end of the special have X go to 9. -
Damn, that was cool…
! I don't think I've been this pumped for Doctor Who since I first started watching it. The middle part of the episode was a little slow and confusing (well, this is Doctor Who) and that was kind of a weak payoff for the GI, but the ending blew me away.
Man, once I'm done with DS9 (or, heck, maybe even while I'm watching DS9) I'll have to try and catch up on all the Classic Who episodes I haven't seen. That is, all the 5th, 6th, and 7th DW episodes, plus the movie. -
I'll have to try and catch up on all the Classic Who episodes I haven't seen. That is, all the 5th, 6th, and 7th DW episodes, plus the movie.
Well, maybe not all the 6th and 7th…
Though really they only have a handful each, so even as bad as they generally are, its not for very long.
(The doctors were fine, but the show around them was crashing badly at the time.)
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@RobbyBevard:
Well, maybe not all the 6th and 7th…
Though really they only have a handful each, so even as bad as they generally are, its not for very long.
(The doctors were fine, but the show around them was crashing badly at the time.)
I'm a completionist. I take the good with the bad.
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I watched the finale with a bunch of NuWho only people, and, while they all loved it, no one was nearly as excited I was.
I just can't wait for November. Though now I'm even more bummed that the anniversary will only be an hour. It seems like so much more time will be needed.
I also can't fathom how the AV Club gave this episode a C+. That's just…wrong.
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Well… That was some quite marvelous misdirection you were throwing our way, Mr. Moffat. If I was wearing a hat I would take it off for you.
! So, I take it this was not the event so ominously foreshadowed at the end of season 6 then… Because, y'know, they were quite specific about that whole thing with how when that time came, he would have to answer the question, ("where no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer…") which he in this case seemed to avoid easily enough. I don't exactly think a hostage-situation is quite enough to live up to that description. Oh, and the question of where River learned the Doctor's name remains unanswered. Also I suppose this would mean that what the Doctor saw back in his room in The God Complex was the John Hurt "Not-Doctor" character.
Oh, and also while I was waiting for this episode to download, I rewatched The Bells of Saint John, and it just occurred to me… Did we ever find out anything about who that "lady in the shop" who gave Clara the Doctor's number was? -
Nope. Maybe she's Rose (I hope not but well, she's in the special), or Kate Stewart… It's probably a season 8 plot-point.
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The only weak point for me was that, the GI's hatred seemed to come out of nowhere, wish there had been an episode where we could see just how much the GI hates him.
So this John Hurt business came up because Eccleston refused to do the annivesary? Though it does make sense since his version was just fresh out of the time war
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@Vegard:
Oh, and the question of where River learned the Doctor's name remains unanswered.
It was answered. She buggered him enough until he told her.
He thought the only context he'd ever reveal it was in the context of this episode, but she got it from him some time after marrying him. 50 or 100 years of regular pestering and sexing from your wife will accomplish the trick eventually, is what's implied.
Alternately, when she got on her timeline to being right before the library adventure, he told her because she knew when he first met her. It'd be a thing if the last thing he trusted her with was a new screwdriver and his name… right before she meets him for the first time.
Oh, and also while I was waiting for this episode to download, I rewatched The Bells of Saint John, and it just occurred to me… Did we ever find out anything about who that "lady in the shop" who gave Clara the Doctor's number was?
Can't it simply be "the lady in the shop"? Does everything have to tie in and be part of an uber-plot? The Doctor has met and influenced a lot of people, he has people to give out messages when he thinks they need to. It could have been the girl from Blink. Or it could have been an alt Clara. It's a fairly unimportant point.
So this John Hurt business came up because Eccleston refused to do the annivesary?
No. Without actually knowing details, apparently Rose was added to the 50th because Eccleston refused. John Hurt was always in the plan.