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You're probably overreacting just a bit, don't you think, Kiden?
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You're probably overreacting just a bit, don't you think, Kiden?
I know the point has already been made twenty times, but what the hell, I have nothing better to do.
The battleships always seemed like the icing on the cake to me, ever since we first heard what the Call consisted of. Most real fighters in OP are plenty capable of disabling/disposing of large ships if they're being manned by the standard marine grunts; its universe is filled with so many superhumans, after all. It's the high-ranked officers that are (almost certainly) just as superhuman that pose the real threats.
Hell, the end of 396 gave a perfect example of the vice admiral's worth in comparison to the battleships. Vice admirals take out the real resistance, battleships are there to clean up the random scholars/look pretty.
I concur with almost everything that's been said here, especially by Ubiq, theinvisibleworm, and the clicky pen. I think the Buster Call is more than what we've seen thusfar. Theinvisibleworm made a very valid point earlier: Sauro is running towards the ships, not away from them. Surely, that says something about what's to come.
I can understand why someone might be disappointed, but I remind them: there's still at least one chapter of Robin's flashback left (though I can't see it being finished in next chapter alone). There's still time for you to see the true power of the Buster Call and the vice-admirals who run it.
I think there's a perception from the anime that the marine ships are weak; but in the manga (correct me if I'm wrong), I think the only time we saw someone taking on a marine ship head on and win before chap 396 was during the Arlong Park arc. I mean, Mr. 2 got his butt kicked when he tried to take on one. So with that in mind, I would say a Buster Call is actually VERY powerful.
Marine ships is as weak as they are built and seen to what people located on/in them. The ship that got destroyed at Arlong Park was a low level ship with weak guys in it.
We kinda see the diffrence if we compare the sizes of the ships. :) One of Sauls fingers is like a human, and the ship he is lifting is at least 10-20 times bigger than him. So, that's one hell of a ship. :D
I wonder if Saul is counted as one of the Vice Admirals in Busters Call, or if they had the time to fix one new when he ran away. =/
I don't see how anyone can say they are dissapointed in the Buster Call when we haven't seen it in action. The Buster Call having cannons s pretty much a given. Besides the government agents were still on Ohara, they need to get out first. And those ships are gigantic.
It wouldn't surprise me if ao kiji was the replacement for Saul which is why he owes him if he is luffys grandpa.
I somewhat understand what kiden is saying. I was more expecting going there, landing the admirals on the island, which using ao kiji like powers destroy and neutralize everything that might be a hostile, go back the ships and from the ship actually destroy the whole island. I really cannot imagine obliterating and removing an island from a map just using cannons. For me that is like destroying a wall with a rifle (a la RTS games). It is theoritically possible, but, meh, that would be a long, long week
What astonishes me about the whole Buster Call concept is how "dumb" it seems.
Press the button, and wherever you send them ceases to exist, is the impression they give.
There seems to be no attempt at intelligence gathering, no selecting the weapons to fit the target, no cleanup/ensuring there's nothing salvagable (why doesn't the WG COLLECT the Poneglyph in Ohara to keep it out of circulation, if they can't break it?), and half of me wonders if there's any validating the target. I could imagine it being incorrectly deployed and the BC ships mindlessly firing on a WG participant nation or a Marine facility.
What astonishes me about the whole Buster Call concept is how "dumb" it seems.
Press the button, and wherever you send them ceases to exist, is the impression they give.
Never heard of the Cold War? The biggest fear back then was actually that either one of the powers would literally "push the button". And the exact consequences would be that what gets hit by the power that gets unleashed ceases to exist.
I don´t see anything dumb beyond that concept. It is actually very plausible, logic and even can be compared to the real world.
Never heard of the Cold War? The biggest fear back then was actually that either one of the powers would literally "push the button". And the exact consequences would be that what gets hit by the power that gets unleashed ceases to exist.
I don´t see anything dumb beyond that concept. It is actually very plausible, logic and even can be compared to the real world.
I meant "dumb" in the sense it's "brute force and ignorance" rather than a well-considered attack designed for the specific threat. It's "dumb" like using the same gun to shoot a 400kg bear and to shoot a 15 gram lizard.
Well, the situation actually is a closer parallel to today's "war on terror" than the cold war. You've got a single superpower (the WG) with a stated quest to destroy a "moving target" that can't actually be associated with a specific location (pirates).
If the superpower does press the button, it may not actually get the target (see invading Afghanistan and Iraq), but it will result in massive outcry from the neighbours. I could almost see it turning, like the "war on terror", into a blanket licence to engage in state-craft. Build a new Ohara over the old and staff it with complaint people.
I'm curious what the WG does to placate the "indirect" victims of a BC. If you're a neighbour of a nation hit, you'll lose significant trade, it might impact your tourism, and depending on the technical nature of the weapon, you might have fallout or pollution to cope with. If they do it in the wrong place, they'll make more foes than they had before.
There seems to be no attempt at intelligence gathering,
Unless, of course, you count the CP9 ship that went there first, which may well be SOP.
no selecting the weapons to fit the target,
Why should there be? It's a specific military operation that uses specific assets. Sometimes, a Buster Call will use far more firepower than was necessary while some other missions will be much more difficult.
no cleanup/ensuring there's nothing salvagable (why doesn't the WG COLLECT the Poneglyph in Ohara to keep it out of circulation, if they can't break it?)
No reason to complain about that until the Buster Call is actually complete. For all we know, the bombardment is followed by an amphibious assault by Marines. The initial bombardment by the Navy may just be to destroy all major facilities and possible defenses within range of the guns.
and half of me wonders if there's any validating the target.
Well, again, Spandine was right there and actually had the Gorosei speak directly to Clover, so they were bound to have known that it was the right target.
I could imagine it being incorrectly deployed and the BC ships mindlessly firing on a WG participant nation or a Marine facility.
They're not idiots for God's sake; I'm sure that if they are ordered to fire on a target, they wait for clear identification first.
WRT misdirected calls, apologies; I've heard some people proposing "I'd love to see the Golden Den-Den-Mushi go off in Spandam's hands and they'd level HIM!" and figured it was a blind assault.
It's not the smartest or most efficient way to fight if you just use "specific assets" for every Call. If you drop thousands of tonnes of explosives on an already levelled area, it's a waste and potentially increases the risk because they're carrying more explosives that could go off onboard.
I meant "dumb" in the sense it's "brute force and ignorance" rather than a well-considered attack designed for the specific threat. It's "dumb" like using the same gun to shoot a 400kg bear and to shoot a 15 gram lizard.
I really don´t your point. From the very beginning the Buster Call has been introduced as a destructive power, strong enough to burn islands. It´s a big military force. What else do you expect?
Well considered sneaky attacks are done by either a super special military force or by secret agents. The WG could have easily used such people to do the job and make everything look like a big accident.
But that was never the point. They wanted to state an example to the world. They wanted to show what happens if anybody goes against them. And that´s why a powerful and destructive fleet was sent to Ohara.
Well, the situation actually is a closer parallel to today's "war on terror" than the cold war. You've got a single superpower (the WG) with a stated quest to destroy a "moving target" that can't actually be associated with a specific location (pirates).
Yes it is a closer parallel to todays war on terror. However that was never the point I made. I was just showing an example about the push-the-button-fear. The Cold War is the perfect example for that because for several decades people were scared of exactly that thing.
I'm curious what the WG does to placate the "indirect" victims of a BC. If you're a neighbour of a nation hit, you'll lose significant trade, it might impact your tourism, and depending on the technical nature of the weapon, you might have fallout or pollution to cope with. If they do it in the wrong place, they'll make more foes than they had before.
We´ve already seen that the Gorousei give a shit about the little people that belong to the WG. Not only because of what happened to Ohara or what was going on at Water 7 but because of Drum and Arabasta.
Drum was a member government of the WG. However when the Blackbeard Pirates rampaged there which even caused the government to flee the WG didn´t do anything against it. Sengoku even said that he never even heard of Teach.
Furthermore, in Arabasta there´s been a rebellion going on for 3 years. They didn´t even bother to be of help there. If Smoker wouldn´t have been captured together with the Strawhats by Crocodile, then the Marine wouldn´t have even been there.
The WG didn´t give a shit about the problems of the member governments. But if they themselves are in trouble then they want those governments to help them. The meeting at Mariejoa six years ago when Dragon was on the agenda is the perfect proof for that.
All in all, the WG couldn´t care less how they infect the small man with their actions in Ohara. All that matters is that they state an example on how far they´ll go if somebody goes against them. And to prove that, a big destructive military force is the perfect choice.
But that was never the point. They wanted to state an example to the world. They wanted to show what happens if anybody goes against them. And that´s why a powerful and destructive fleet was sent to Ohara.
But bombing rubble doesn't really add much more "awe" to the situation, but it's expensive. It could even be considered comical, like the last 20 or 30 repetitions of Usopp Hamma against Chuu. If it's impressiveness you want, a well-publicised, perfectly surgical strike can actually be as awesome as carpet-bombing, and a lot cheaper/safer/less likely to result in bad press or blowback.
Yes it is a closer parallel to todays war on terror. However that was never the point I made. I was just showing an example about the push-the-button-fear. The Cold War is the perfect example for that because for several decades people were scared of exactly that thing.
:nod: I agree, it just occured to me when you spoke of the cold war, and I wanted it written down.
The WG didn´t give a shit about the problems of the member governments. But if they themselves are in trouble then they want those governments to help them. The meeting at Mariejoa six years ago when Dragon was on the agenda is the perfect proof for that.
The WG has amazing "tunnel vision" for long term thinking. They can see people researching who MIGHT come across something which MAY threaten them, but they can't see their policies aren't really encouraging long-term compliance? If the WG can only rely on many of its members out of fear of military intervention, the moment a Buster Call fails or a well-publicised Marine scandal, they stand to lose everything.
You'd think for that reason, they'd never want to actually call the Buster, to avoid the risk of failure.
But bombing rubble doesn't really add much more "awe" to the situation, but it's expensive. It could even be considered comical, like the last 20 or 30 repetitions of Usopp Hamma against Chuu. If it's impressiveness you want, a well-publicised, perfectly surgical strike can actually be as awesome as carpet-bombing, and a lot cheaper/safer/less likely to result in bad press or blowback.
I understand what you mean. But this is not what it´s about. The WG wanted to prove one thing: "Oppose us and we declare war on you!" They want to stake an example of their power that will echo through world unlike and clean perfectly surgical strike could ever do.
Just imagine the fear that everyone would have because of this clear act of war. Nobody in their right mind would like to see that coming for their hometown/city/country. Because unlike with a clean surgical strike only the responsibles get finished, but with such a brutal act of war many innocents can be punished too. Just imagine the responsibility you´d have there if the Buster Call would be coming for you. You couldn´t say "send all at me that you got. I don´t care." because you´re not the only one who would suffer the effects of it but actually many people you know and love too.
The Buster Call is perfect to achieve all of that. A clean surgical strike no matter with how much propaganda couldn´t spread that much fear throughout the world as this brutal act of war does.
The WG has amazing "tunnel vision" for long term thinking. They can see people researching who MIGHT come across something which MAY threaten them, but they can't see their policies aren't really encouraging long-term compliance? If the WG can only rely on many of its members out of fear of military intervention, the moment a Buster Call fails or a well-publicised Marine scandal, they stand to lose everything.
This is actually why Dragon is so dangerous. They don´t fear just him but they fear that he could find a large number of followers to be a serious problem to the WG. And the WG unwillingly does all it can to give Dragon even more potential sympathies. Best is if you compare it to Star Wars.
The Empire used Alderaan to state an example not only to the Rebellion but to anyone who dares to oppose them. It was a brutal miliary strike and actually useless but it was an efficient way to demonstrate their power and their determination.
But with all of that there was even more people that desired to bring the Empire to fall and joined the Rebellion. I think that to an certain extent in One Piece the same thing could happen.
My point on topic: I've yet to be disappointed by Buster Call. So far it's been exactly what we've told it would be. Ten powerful warships (and I think these are easily higher grade ships than we've seen in the past). Even fi I was finding it disapointing now, the attack only JUST started, after all.
There have been complaints of why even have the Vice Admirals there, but perhaps vice admirals or higher are the only soldiers with the rank/authority to run the vessels. The biggest baddest ships aren't going to be captained by actual Captains, I would think. (In fact, I could be wrong, but it seemed like the boat Smoker sails in on the Grand Line is smaller than the battleships we're seeing right now. Could even be that the V.A.'s are there as part of a procedure to protect the battleships from outside attack (such as Sauro's).
Those Ships are definitely the biggest Marine vessels we´ve seen so far in One Piece.
Within this chapter we actually see all the five different kinds of marine ships that appeared so far. I´ll list it from the smallest to the biggest:
1. Small: Has 2 masts. The first one has 1 normal sail on it. The second one has 1 back on it. It has a little sail on the bow. Seen on page 15. The one Olvia escapes with. Also the same as Smoker´s ship.
2. Medium: Has 2 masts too. The front one has 2 sails, the back one has 1 sail. Has no back sails. Like Smoker´s ship it has a little sail at the bow. Seen on the title page of this chapter.
3. Large: Has three masts. The first two have two sails each. The last one has a back sail on it. The one Saul escapes with on page 15.
4. Xtra Large: Has 4 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The second one has 2 sails. The third one has 1 sail again. And the last one has a back sail. Garp´s ship. Probably personal flag ships for Vice-Admirals.
5. XXtra Large: Has 4 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The two middle ones have 2 sails each. The last one has 1 sail again. It has no back sails. And if you look at page 12 you´ll see that it has one hell of an strong hull. The Buster Call babies of course.
Ivotas thanks for the run-down of marine ships, you even went so far as to give references, and I really appreciate it because that's something I was wondering about.
By the way does Smoker's ship kind of remind you of the going Merry, or at least the way that panel is setup, it just reminds me of the going merry from that angle (worry not though, I know they are different types of ships and everything).
Ivotas thanks for the run-down of marine ships, you even went so far as to give references, and I really appreciate it because that's something I was wondering about.
:dito:
By the way does Smoker's ship kind of remind you of the going Merry, or at least the way that panel is setup, it just reminds me of the going merry from that angle (worry not though, I know they are different types of ships and everything).
Smokers ship does remind me of merry. esp the shape, for the most part.
Within this chapter we actually see all the five different kinds of marine ships that appeared so far. I´ll list it from the smallest to the biggest
Nice work, let's see what we have here.
1. Small: Has 2 masts. The first one has 1 normal sail on it. The second one has 1 back on it. It has a little sail on the bow.
It's also Fullbody's ship and the first Naval ship that we see in the actual storyline. Considering how common it is and it's size, it's probably safe to call it a corvette.
2. Medium: Has 2 masts too. The front one has 2 sails, the back one has 1 sail. Has no back sails.
Considering that it's intermediate in size, this is probably a frigate or a destroyer.
You seem to have missed one by the way, so I'll add it here.
2A. Medium: Has three masts; two sails, three sails, two sails, and a back sail. Smaller than the next ship, which also has three sails, but is bulkier and presumably more powerful. We see this one during Jango's flashback to the night Kuro abandons his identity.
Let's call this one a light cruiser. It appears to be fairly fast, but not particularly sturdy or well armed compared to the next ship.
3. Large: Has three masts. The first two have two sails each. The last one has a back sail on it.
Also the type of ship that carries Purinpurin's unit to Arlong Park. Seems to be commanded by a flag officer. Considering it's size, it's probably a heavy cruiser or even a battlecruiser.
4. Xtra Large: Has 4 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The second one has 2 sails. The third one has 1 sail again. And the last one has a back sail.
I don't have the raw anymore and I haven't downloaded a scanslation yet, but does Kuzan's ship have the same general appearance? If so, it's probably a battleship that is the personal vessel of a high ranking military officer. If Kuzan's is different, then this is probably a battlecruiser that has been altered to fit Garp's own style.
5. XXtra Large: Has 4 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The two middle ones have 2 sails each. The last one has 1 sail again. It has no back sails.
Identified as a battleship. Not much more to say than that.
Which type of ship did Hina's squadron have by the way?
The Buster Call is exactly what I expected it to be: Excessive force used on a civilian target.
Archaeologists, serfs, etc.; these aren't fighting pirates that are being bombed, they're scholars with little or no fighting experience, old and young people that are just simply living their plain, ordinary lives.
What makes Robin fear the Buster Call is just that: It's EXCESSIVE. Extremely. You don't rob Dairy Queen with a Bazooka, do you? The government is throwing their elite at a small, backwater island in West Blue because of their transgression. Robin, being an eight year old child, is naturally going to be traumatized.
This isn't the Cold War. The World Government doesn't have nuclear missles waiting to go. If they did, the Pirate age would be DONE.
And the Buster Call can't be the end all, beat all strategy. For one thing, it's expensive. The Gorosei can't pull giant cannon balls out of their asses… people have to be paid to manufacture them, the ships have to be built, the Marines have to be paid. Thus, they can't just use it on any Tom, Dick and Harry pirate that comes along swinging a six-shooter and calling himself Kaizoku-ou.
The whole reason Ohara was a target was simple:
A. It's a small island in the middle of West Blue, far removed from other islands (As far as we know)
B. No famous government representatives live there, nor their kin. As far as I can tell, Clover is the Mayor.
C. None of these people hold any power or sway over how things are run around the rest of the world.
It's basically a scapegoat: Defy the Gorosei, they'll blow you to hell. It's pure and simple. CP9 was sent there with the Battleships right behind them: the battleships weren't even on standby. It was all planned, really... If the government had thought that Ohara might be innocent, they wouldn't have had all the battleships on standby.
A question... Didn't Smoker take Crocodile's ship after the Alabasta incident? I think he told Tashigi to move the dance powder and the criminals to his ship, and he took Croc's ship as his own.
@ Ubiq: Thanks for the reference to the Jango flashback ship. I completely forgot about that one.
However after I checked it I have to say that I´m having quite some problems to determine whether it´s better placed between ships 2 (Medium) and 3 (Large) or between ships 4 (Xtra Large) and 5 (XXtra Large).
The reason is because it has 4 masts. The back sail is attached on a mast too. It actually resembles Garps ship very much except for the one difference that the middle mast has one saiil more then Garps ship. Plus just like the Buster Call ships, it has big canons at the bow too.
However it doesn´t really look that big and bulky as Garps ship does. It just has one sail more. But that alone doesn´t determine size. Maybe it´s best placed between Saul´s and Garps ship. It looks much like Saul´s ship just that it has more sails and the cannons. Maybe it´s a battle version of that one.
Well, anyways I´m off to Uni right now. When I get back later on, I´ll be re-doing the list again and maybe I´ll even include some pics within the post.
About Kuzan´s ship. It looks the same as the other 9 Buster Call ships. So it´s not like Garps.
Hina´s squadron had those little ships Smoker has. Makes sense if you think that the highest present officer is a Captain.
It looks much like Saul´s ship just that it has more sails and the cannons.
The bow is also different if you notice.
Maybe it´s a battle version of that one.
Considering that it replaces the bowsprit with a battery of cannons, it might be some sort of fast pursuit ship.
Personally, I'd keep it a medium or large ship; it may be fairly long in comparison to the frigate/destroyer type, but it's definitely less massive than your larger sizes.
About Kuzan´s ship. It looks the same as the other 9 Buster Call ships. So it´s not like Garps.
Which makes Garp's a different class most likely then. Probably a battlecruiser.
Hina´s squadron had those little ships Smoker has. Makes sense if you think that the highest present officer is a Captain.
At a guess, Nezumi's ship was also of this variety. At least, I don't recall ever actually seeing his ship.
Of course, the ship that takes Morgan to Garp seems to be of the second category, though it could just be the poor quality of the scan I have of that chapter.
Ok, I´ve been checking through everything again and I found that my previous list wasn´t really complete. Hoping that the list is complete now, there are 9 different kinds of Marine ships that appear through the manga. However the small, medium, large, xtra large, xxtra large classifications still work. In fact, there´s two different kinds of small and medium ships aswell as three different kinds of large ships. So they´ll be labeled as small I and II respectively medium I and II aswell as large I, II and III.
In order to avoid confusion I´ll write a new list here instead of just listing the changes. I think this way it works best. Well, here it goes:
1. Small I: Has 2 masts. The first one has 1 regular sail, the second one has a back sail. Has a small sail on the bow.
Used by Fullbody, Smoker and Hina´s squadron and by Olvia.
2. Small II: Has 2 masts too. The front one has 2 sails, the back one has 1 sail. Has no back sails. Except for the additional equipment it doesn´t seem much bigger then Small I.
Hina´s ship.
3. Medium I: Has 3 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The second one has 2 sails. The third one has a back sail. Appears to be a bit more massive then the small ones.
Ship from Morgan´s previous base. That one he escaped from.
4. Medium II: Has 4 masts. The first one has 2 sails. The second one has 3 sails. The third one has 2 sails again. And the last one has a back sail. Has canons at the bow. Except for the additional equipment it doesn´t seem to be much bigger then Medium I.
The one that captured the fake Kuro.
5. Large I: Has three masts. The first two each have 2 sails. The last mast has a back sail. Has a more massive hull then the medium ones.
Nezumi´s ship.
6. Large II: Has three masts too. The first two each have 2 sails too aswell as the last one has a back sail. The only difference over large I is that it has 1 additional sail at the bow and that the hull is shaped differently. Can´t really say which one of the two large ones is bigger.
The ship Saul escapes with.
7. Large III: Has 3 masts. The first one has 2 sails, one regular and one triangular. The second mast has 2 regular sails. The last one has a back sail. Also has one sail at the bow and one that connects the bow to the first mast. Has a different shape then the other two large ships, though they probably have all the same size.
Only testing. Will be deleted immediately
Purin Purin´s ship.
8. Xtra Large: Has 4 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The second one has 2 sails. The third one has 1 sail again. And the last one has a back sail. Appears to be more massive then the large ones.
Garps ship.
9. XXtra Large: Has 4 masts and 1 tower. The first mast has 1 sail. The two middle ones have 2 sails each. The last one has 1 sail again. Has no back sail. Has huge canons at the bow and at the sides. Has the most massive hull of all ships we´ve seen so far.
The Buster Call ships of course.
Well yeah, that´s about it. I tried to keep it as basic as I could. Ubiq, I wouldn´t mind if you would do the namings again. Since the list became a bit bigger and the classifications changed a bit after careful consideration I´d be really interested in hearing them.
1. Small I: Has 2 masts. The first one has 1 regular sail, the second one has a back sail. Has a small sail on the bow.
Seems to be a light vessel, used as escort ships as part of a squadron, and also seems to be a patrol ship. Most likely a corvette.
Strictly speaking, it's a sloop, but the fact that Oda uses battleship instead of ship-of-the-line means that modern naming conventions should be okay.
2. Small II: Has 2 masts too. The front one has 2 sails, the back one has 1 sail. Has no back sails. Except for the additional equipment it doesn´t seem much bigger then Small I.
Seems to be a step up from the smaller class, but could still fulfill the same roles as the lesser ship. I'll say frigate or destroyer. Let's go with destroyer.
3. Medium I: Has 3 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The second one has 2 sails. The third one has a back sail. Appears to be a bit more massive then the small ones.
This is probably a light cruiser of some sort as it lacks the more heavy armament and bulk of ships of the same or greater size.
4. Medium II: Has 4 masts. The first one has 2 sails. The second one has 3 sails. The third one has 2 sails again. And the last one has a back sail. Has canons at the bow. Except for the additional equipment it doesn´t seem to be much bigger then Medium I.
Judging by the bow armament, this is probably a fast pursuit ship of some kind. Probably a light cruiser itself, despite it's armament.
5. Large I: Has three masts. The first two each have 2 sails. The last mast has a back sail. Has a more massive hull then the medium ones.
Ah, so Nezumi's ship did pop up. I forgot about that scene as well as the other one where he arrives in Cocoyashi Village. When it docks at Cocoyashi, it doesn't appear to be all that long in comparison to some of these other vessels; it seems to be bulky, but I think that's partially because of perspective. It'd be nice if there was a scene where this type popped up next to one of the others to get a true sense of scale.
I'm going to call it a cruiser, but it may well be a destroyer.
6. Large II: Has three masts too. The first two each have 2 sails too aswell as the last one has a back sail. The only difference over large I is that it has 1 additional sail at the bow and that the hull is shaped differently. Can´t really say which one of the two large ones is bigger.
Seems to be intermediate in size between the other two Large classes. It has better lines and seems longer than Nezumi's ship, but is smaller and has considerably fewer guns than Purinpurin's ship. Oddly enough, it seems to have less guns than Nezumi's ship during the escape scene despite having a larger appearance. It could have more deck guns to make up the difference or the lack of guns might even be an artistic gaffe of some sort.
Probably a cruiser.
7. Large III: Has 3 masts. The first one has 2 sails, one regular and one triangular. The second mast has 2 regular sails. The last one has a back sail. Also has one sail at the bow and one that connects the bow to the first mast. Has a different shape then the other two large ships, though they probably have all the same size.
Appears to be less powerful than Garp's ship, but has quite a few more guns than either of the other two large vessels. Probably a heavy cruiser as it doesn't seem as massive as Garp's ship and would presumably have less armament.
8. Xtra Large: Has 4 masts. The first one has 1 sail. The second one has 2 sails. The third one has 1 sail again. And the last one has a back sail. Appears to be more massive then the large ones.
Heavily armed and massive, but less so than the battleships. Definitely a battlecruiser as there is no sign of any escorting vessels.
10. XXtra Large: Has 4 masts and 1 tower. The first mast has 1 sail. The two middle ones have 2 sails each. The last one has 1 sail again. Has no back sail. Has huge canons at the bow and at the sides. Has the most massive hull of all ships we´ve seen so far.
Classified by Oda as a battleship, should be the largest and most powerful variety of naval vessel commonly seen.
Since the list became a bit bigger and the classifications changed a bit after careful consideration I´d be really interested in hearing them.
Done.
Here's my reasoning for these by the way:
The small ships are designed to work independently of each other or in concert, which is usually the role fulfilled by corvettes, frigates, or destroyers. I chose to use corvette for the first class because they're the smallest ship commonly fielded by the Navy.
Small II could either be a frigate or a destroyer depending on what Nezumi's class is. To be honest, I would feel more secure in calling the former a frigate while the latter is a destroyer based on length, but the bulky appearance of the 16th Branch ship calls that into question.
The medium and large through extra large ships seem designed to act independently of each other and are especially common in the Blues. These are probably cruisers as those varieties are designed to operate for a long period of time without replenishment. The smaller ships appear to be more common on the Grand Line than they are in the Blues (Fullbody pursued Krieg from the Grand Line, which means that he was originally stationed somewhere around Mariejoie), which makes sense as they are likely to be operating from a base with far more resources.
The battleships are designed to act in concert with one another and have exceedingly heavy armament. They would require a great deal of supplies; most likely, they rarely ever venture into the Blues and, on the odd occasion that they do so, probably return to Marine Headquarters as soon as their task is finished.
Thanks Ivotas and Ubiq, I think this info should be added to Arlong Park site if there is a place for this kind of thing, for easy referencing.
Purinpurin's ship seems to be of the same type, or close to it…
Oh shit! I forgot about Purin Purin´s ship. Well ok, I´ve just edited my previous post by adding it. It´s better then rewriting everything again.
Done.
Here's my reasoning for these by the way:
The small ships are designed to work independently of each other or in concert, which is usually the role fulfilled by corvettes, frigates, or destroyers. I chose to use corvette for the first class because they're the smallest ship commonly fielded by the Navy.
Small II could either be a frigate or a destroyer depending on what Nezumi's class is. To be honest, I would feel more secure in calling the former a frigate while the latter is a destroyer based on length, but the bulky appearance of the 16th Branch ship calls that into question.
The medium and large through extra large ships seem designed to act independently of each other and are especially common in the Blues. These are probably cruisers as those varieties are designed to operate for a long period of time without replenishment. The smaller ships appear to be more common on the Grand Line than they are in the Blues (Fullbody pursued Krieg from the Grand Line, which means that he was originally stationed somewhere around Mariejoie), which makes sense as they are likely to be operating from a base with far more resources.
The battleships are designed to act in concert with one another and have exceedingly heavy armament. They would require a great deal of supplies; most likely, they rarely ever venture into the Blues and, on the odd occasion that they do so, probably return to Marine Headquarters as soon as their task is finished.
Thanks for those elaborations. Very interesting IMO.
@ theinvisibleworm: Don´t worry, I´ll inlcude it to Arlong Park when I get the time to continue my work on it. For now I still have to finalize the "OP world" section before I work intensively on the ships.
BTW, I have a question to those who understand japanese. Is "warship" a mistranslation or does it work too? I just don´t feel comfortable with calling the Buster Call ships battleships after all. I mean every armored ship somehow is battle ready but not every kind of those ships can be classified as a warship. Only the strongest ones deserve to be labeled as warships. That´s why I prefer that term personally, but if it is a mistranslation then I won´t go with it.
Oh shit! I forgot about Purin Purin´s ship. Well ok, I´ve just edited my previous post by adding it. It´s better then rewriting everything again.
Pretty much… are you going to delete that entry after all or leave it the same? If the former, then I'll add a seperate entry to my notes as well and will probably downgrade Saul's ship to a cruiser. Purinpurin's ship is obviously much better armed.
Only the strongest ones deserve to be labeled as warships. That´s why I prefer that term personally, but if it is a mistranslation then I won´t go with it.
Hmm… must be a linguistic difference because any of these ships could be classified as a warship as they all have a legitimate combat role. Strictly speaking, any military vessel with a combat role is a warship. Role as well as size and armament determine the class of the vessel, but they're all still warships. At least, that's how it works in English.
Why take issue with the word battleship when these are by far the largest naval vessels with the heaviest armament seen in the series so far?
Though I do wonder if it's "senkan" in the original or if battleship is just a substitute. So ocean, stephen, or Selphish, which is it? Senkan or something else?
Warship = 軍艦 military ship aka war vessel.
Battleship = 戦艦 war ship.
Ha ha ha. I don't remember what was the original Japanese used in OP, but yeah, above is the definition.
Pretty much… are you going to delete that entry after all or leave it the same? If the former, then I'll add a seperate entry to my notes as well and will probably downgrade Saul's ship to a cruiser. Purinpurin's ship is obviously much better armed.
I delete my previous post. In fact I edited it and included Purin Purin´s ship too. So I guess it´s ok now.
Hmm… must be a linguistic difference because any of these ships could be classified as a warship as they all have a legitimate combat role.
Why take issue with the word battleship when these are by far the largest naval vessels with the heaviest armament seen in the series so far?
Well maybe it´s just my personal connotation of those words. For my personal view war is much heavier as battle. You can have battles outside of war. In other words not every battle is serious and brutal. With war however you get the ultimate non-plus-ultra. Nothing is more serious and brutal then that. That´s why I personally prefer the word war to label ships like the Buster Call ones that release hell on an island.
Though I do wonder if it's "senkan" in the original or if battleship is just a substitute. So ocean, stephen, or Selphish, which is it? Senkan or something else?
Does senkan mean warship?
Warship = 軍艦 military ship aka war vessel.
Battleship = 戦艦 war ship.
You mind writing that down in romaji. My computer doesn´t show japanese signs. I just get those ugly squares instead.
Warship - Gunkan
Battleship - Senkan
Does senkan mean warship?
Senkan literally means warship
戦 (war) 艦 (ship)
Thanks for the info ocean. So the german translators didn´t get it wrong after all. They translated Gunkan Island as Warship Island. :idea:
So literally senkan means warship but actually battleship is the proper translation, right? <_<
That´s why I personally prefer the word war to label ships like the Buster Call ones that release hell on an island.
It doesn't really work that way in English though; the heaviest ships are called battleships because the word is derived from ship-of-the-line, which were traditionally the heaviest ships that might be encountered in a battle line formation.
Warship is a much more generic term. Kriegschiff for instance could apply equally to the Prinz Eugen or the Bismarck, but the first is a Schwerer Kreuzer and the second is a Schlachtschiff. Heisen or gunkan could apply equally to Oyodo or the Yamato, but the first is a junyokan while the second is a senkan.
Does senkan mean warship?
Battleship actually; it's literally warship, but the proper translation is battleship because that's the role those vessels filled in the Imperial Navy. Uchu Senkan Yamato for instance.
Now, gunkan can mean either battleship or the more generic warship. From the ships that we've seen, they're battleships.
It doesn't really work that way in English though; the heaviest ships are called battleships because the word is derived from ship-of-the-line, which were traditionally the heaviest ships that might be encountered in a battle line formation.
Warship is a much more generic term. Kriegschiff for instance could apply equally to the Prinz Eugen or the Bismarck, but the first is a Schwerer Kreuzer and the second is a Schlachtschiff. Heisen or gunkan could apply equally to Oyodo or the Yamato, but the first is a junyokan while the second is a senkan.
Well, I guess it truly is a german thing there. Schlachtschiff (battleship) already sounds intense but Kriegsschiff (warship) sounds like something that brings hell to you.
Battleship actually; it's literally warship, but the proper translation is battleship because that's the role those vessels filled in the Imperial Navy. Uchu Senkan Yamato for instance.
Now, gunkan can mean either battleship or the more generic warship. From the ships that we've seen, they're battleships.
Well ok, I´ll stick with battleship then.
All the marine ships we've seen so far would be broadly defined as warships. A warship is basically 'any' ship used by governments with warfare in mind.
Those battleships used for the Buster Call only have two gundecks, so they must be third rate or lower. First rate battleships have three gundecks. So, presumably, there are still larger battleships in the Navy's fleet, probably the personal ships of the taishou and gensui themselves.
First rate battleships have three gundecks. So, presumably, there are still larger battleships in the Navy's fleet, probably the personal ships of the taishou and gensui themselves.
That rating system doesn't really work that well in light of the fact that the Navy's battleships have turrets on top of their more mundane armament. Cannons mounted in a turret can easily take the place of more cannons mounted in a traditional fashion. They have superior fields of fire and should be more powerful to boot thanks to the fact that much of the manual labor normally associated with firing cannons has been lessened or automated entirely.
Mind you, I'm not saying that there are not individual classes of battleship out there other than the ones seen here, but that the lack of a third gundeck does not necessarily mean that larger varieties of battleship exist.
First, props to Ubiq and Ivotas for the ship listing and classification- way cool that you guys took the time to do it.
Secondly, I can somewhat understand how Kiden feel; I too am a bit dissapointed in Buster call/ Robins flashback up 'till now, though not for the same reasons. I find the "cannon issue" fine, because I'm 100% sure it's not it -theres' more to come.
To me, it just haven't been as dramatically told as I'd hoped. I mean, I know it's One Piece and all, but I'd have liked it so much more if the marines hadn't even bothered to rescue the civilians (as said earlier, they don't seem to care for the little people), or if we'd just seen somebody DIE already.
I mean, explosions are everywhere, yet we haven't seen anyone get hurt. I'd be satisfied with random guy #341 being blown away, anything to increase the drama.
But, I have faith that 397 will turn all this around.
Like I said, I'm positive that the barrage will be followed up by something even more devastating. Why? Spandam said Ohara was removed from the maps. Even if you scorch and island it's still there, and there's no reason it would be removed 'cause it's "forbidden", because Buster call is there to destroy what could make it so.
Ergo, an even more powerful weapon must be deployed, to remove the island itself. We've already seen the potential of the bomb in Alabasta, and there seems to be nothing in the way of making a more powerful version.
What if it's LITERAL?
They stopped putting Ohara on the maps, and are suppressing its existence like they try and suppress the true history. Just roll out new standard maps to the Marine, and they'll get widely accepted. If OP world cartography is still pretty primitive, an island disappearing could just represent a more accurate map, like how old maps made North America 4 times its actual size.
@The:
Why? Spandam said Ohara was removed from the maps. Even if you scorch and island it's still there, and there's no reason it would be removed 'cause it's "forbidden", because Buster call is there to destroy what could make it so.
Ergo, an even more powerful weapon must be deployed, to remove the island itself.
Well, until we see otherwise, there's no reason to assume that Spandam was using anything other than a fairly common expression. They probably made it a capital offense to even go there on the offchance that somebody might find something that had managed to avoid total destruction.
We've already seen the potential of the bomb in Alabasta, and there seems to be nothing in the way of making a more powerful version.
On the other hand, we've yet to see anything on the battleships that even remotely looks big enough to fire a shell as massive as the one Crocodile was planning to use. That was a mortar rather than a cannon anyway and would be practically useless on a battleship as it would be an actual hindrance in any naval battle rather than an advantage due to way a mortar operates.
Oda might have them use some sort of finishing weapon, but there is no real need to. Naval bombardment of this sort is more than enough when there are so many ships completely ringing the target and especially when the target is made up for flammable materials. A massive library on an island dominated by a tree? Instead of Flower-Arranging, they should have named it Tinderbox Island.
Actually if you look at the cannons on the side of the ship Sauro picked up they seem about the same size as the huge cannon in Alabasta (in that their barrels are almost as large as Sauro's head).
Actually if you look at the cannons on the side of the ship Sauro picked up they seem about the same size as the huge cannon in Alabasta (in that their barrels are almost as large as Sauro's head).
They don't appear much larger than the cannons mounted in the turrets to me and we clearly see how big those are on the page before. At best, they're about two feet across judging by the Marines standing next to them and that's being exceedingly generous. The Alabasta mortar was large enough that Pell could have walked inside of it with several feet of headroom to spare.
The Marines may well have monitors somewhere capable of mounting a behemoth like the Alabasta gun, but these battleships don't seem to have them unless they're buried inside of the superstructure, which is poor design to say the least. There's no way to miss a gun with a eight or foot diameter on a ship that size.
You're not looking at the same cannons I'm looking at, apparently, because the ones I see are at least as big as Sauro's mouth were he to open it, and Sauro, being a giant, has a pretty big mouth.
The ones I'm talking about have no marines standing near them, they are literally on the front and back of the ship (but on the side) they seem a little bit below deck and they are sticking through turrets (NOT the turret thing with three cannon barrels on it, I mean square holes that the heads of the cannons are sticking through.
Then again, even the three cannons on the circular turret are huge, Sauro is the closest to them when he picks the ship up so it's really best to use him a a size reference, not the people that are 20 - 30 feet away.
I just looked and I see where you were looking, it's really hard to gauge the cannon size from that panel because the marines are standing behind them and we have a sort of flat view of them, and the cannons look pretty long. The cannons aren't as big as the one in Alabasta, I'm not claiming that. I'm just claiming that they 'are' big and that they 'could' pack a pretty big explosion.
You're not looking at the same cannons I'm looking at, apparently, because the ones I see are at least as big as Sauro's mouth were he to open it, and Sauro, being a giant, has a pretty big mouth.
Sauro appears to be between twenty and thirty feet tall; if the battleship's guns are as large as the Alabasta gun, then they would have to be at almost a third to one half of his height.
(NOT the turret thing with three cannon barrels on it, I mean square holes that the heads of the cannons are sticking through.
Yes, the cannons that are on the gundecks. They don't appear to be larger than the guns in the turrets to me. Even then, that's not a good position for a mortar. The turrets are much, much better suited for the purpose of shore bombardment.
Then again, even the three cannons on the circular turret are huge, Sauro is the closest to them when he picks the ship up so it's really best to use him a a size reference, not the people that are 20 - 30 feet away.
Check the previous page again.
The shell connects with Sauro and we see Marines commenting on such while standing around and between three smoking barrels right next to each other in a row. Presumably, they're either standing right in front of the turret or perhaps even on it. We then cut to Sauro's perspective and see a turret aimed right at him with smoking barrels. As we do not see any explosions around him during the period, these are obviously the same guns that fired on him seconds before.
Well, until we see otherwise, there's no reason to assume that Spandam was using anything other than a fairly common expression. They probably made it a capital offense to even go there on the offchance that somebody might find something that had managed to avoid total destruction.
I may take it too literally, but it's because this thought struck me: If, say, the Hawaiian islands were bombed, and no building/ person were left, the islands would still remain. And they'd still be call Hawaii.
However, you say it's removed, as in being hidden/forbidden. But Seeing as how Buster call is total destruction, wouldn't surviving info make it a failure? And I'd say the marines in this case would be pretty stupid if they were to just leave the island after the bombardement, instead of searching it manually afterwards.
But supposing Ohara was intact, and some sort of unremovable info was there: What good would it do to stop making maps of it? What of the maps in existance? Are the marines to scour west blue (which, being devoid of magnetic fields, should have more detailed maps then GL) for maps showing Oharas' location?
And what of the civilians from the island? They know where it is too.
Forgetting all this, even if no one knew it's location, there'd be nothing to prevent a passing ship from seeing the island. And an uncharted island is just begging for explorers, which the marines would be trying to avoid.
Of course, they could defend the island, but then it wouldn't be hidden.
All this is why I think Ohara, literaly, is no more. Or at the very most, a few small uninhabitable pieces of land sticking out of the sea.
Well, I guess we'll see tomorrow.
@The:
But supposing Ohara was intact, and some sort of unremovable info was there: What good would it do to stop making maps of it? What of the maps in existance? Are the marines to scour west blue (which, being devoid of magnetic fields, should have more detailed maps then GL) for maps showing Oharas' location?
If maps in the OP world are of poor quality, like pirate-age maps of our world, it may be enough to "disguise" Ohara by removing it from the maps. Bits and pieces of land appear and disappeared on those maps as the information became more accurate, so there's a "justification".
When someone comes across it, and it's not on the mainstream maps, it could be just interpreted as an inaccuracy in the maps, bad navigation, or an island not worth noting. Not enough of a story to get people interested.
I'd assume that the WG and Marine can supply the world with the "percieved best" maps because they're the ones with the resources and need to (presumably) do it right. I'd expect many pirates and civlians work with copies of their maps, for that reason, so it's not really a matter of collecting the old maps.
The only problem is the "my Auntie lived in Ohara, where is she?" people.
The only problem is the "my Auntie lived in Ohara, where is she?" people.
Are these like "the ten o'cklock people," from that Stephen King short story? If your auntie lived in Ohara, you can see the true history? XD