i always pictured the story beign a made up from the WG just to justify such high bounty and in a way to not relate with Ohara. Quite a poor one since they only say: oooh she sunk 6 ships at age eight… and give no reason whatsoever.
Chapter 395 "Ohara vs. the World Government" Discussion
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I also think that it is made up by the WG to give the world an explenation why an 8 year old child is wanted by the government and has a bounty of 79.000.000 berries on her head.
Besides, if she could really destroy 6 ships at the age of 8 then why does she fear such a fleet now? With 20 years of experience in the underground she should actually be able to take out the whole fleet of 10 ships then.
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and even if she did manage to destroy the 6 ships, what happened to the other 4 I wonder…
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Hmm there were about 15 pages less of posts to read when I last visited this topic. I didn't read them through…
Anyways I just wanted to point out something that hadn't been said aloud back then (I'm sorry if someone pointed this out already), that the Gorousei certainly took their sweet time before ordering to shoot Clover down. If Clover had said something dangerous right off the bat, they would have ordered the shooting immediately. It made me wonder about the possibility of everything Clover said until the name of the 'kingdom' being either completely mistaken or at least partly erred. As the Gorousei knew the name and its implications, they didn't even want to listen if Clover had accurate knowledge or not. If the information before it was relevant somehow, they shouldn't have kept listening to stuff they already knew (and have it jeopardized in case of someone tapping in to the line, for example), not while they were already going to execute everyone involved from the island in either case.
It would have been more than easy to have Robin break into the library with her abilities and read all this information while exposing it to the readers. I think there was a whole different reason why we didn't hear it firsthand and had even that interrupted rather rudely -- That being the shaky, but educated guesses of Clover about the nature of WG and this ancient 'kingdom' (which could have been a pirate crew instead of a kingdom for all we really know). I'm not willing to paint WG as an enemy of justice just yet, but lets see about all those buried secrets of the past first.
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Hmm there were about 15 pages less of posts to read when I last visited this topic. I didn't read them through…
Anyways I just wanted to point out something that hadn't been said aloud back then (I'm sorry if someone pointed this out already), that the Gorousei certainly took their sweet time before ordering to shoot Clover down. If Clover had said something dangerous right off the bat, they would have ordered the shooting immediately. It made me wonder about the possibility of everything Clover said until the name of the 'kingdom' being either completely mistaken or at least partly erred. As the Gorousei knew the name and its implications, they didn't even want to listen if Clover had accurate knowledge or not. If the information before it was relevant somehow, they shouldn't have kept listening to stuff they already knew (and have it jeopardized in case of someone tapping in to the line, for example), not while they were already going to execute everyone involved from the island in either case.
While that is a good point, the reason they waited so long to give the order to kill him and everyone else, was most likely to see how much information. the people of Ohara had collected on the 'lost 100 years'. They propably didn't want to kill a person who was no threat to the safety of the World Government's position. This makes me suggest that the Gorousei are were mostly likely told they needed to do this, rather then, give the order of their own decision. As if the people who came before them instructed they must seek out anyone who knows about the 100 years and destroy them. I'm not saying Sengoku, told them to do it but more likely a group of men who made up an older version of "elders".
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The thought did occur to me that perhaps Clover's theory isn't completely correct, and that perhaps it might end up being one of those situations where we're led to believe something is true but then there might be a big plot twist, but it's hard to say at this point.
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In the manga, when Robin destroyed Igaram's ship, did it have the scene where we see a bunch of her hands? Or was that added in the anime? I figure if the question of how she destroyed his ship is ever answered, we could have the answer to whether or not she really destroyed the 6 ships?
My guess about Clover getting shot before naming the kingdom, is that its true name is so secret and potentially revolution-igniting that they couldn't even let the government employees on the island hear it.
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**Remember people it was a theory. The only way to know for sure the lost history is to read the rRio Ponyglyph. So it's only logicall that there are a whole bunch of holes and missing information. Otherwise Robins dream would have had already been accomplished.
Also the buster call was coming. the goursei would make sure no one would survive. And they problaey came to the conclusion that the one in a trillion chance someone who could read the ponyglyphs and had inetiions of exposing it would escape, would not happen.**
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@Bad-Beat:
While that is a good point, the reason they waited so long to give the order to kill him and everyone else, was most likely to see how much information. the people of Ohara had collected on the 'lost 100 years'. They propably didn't want to kill a person who was no threat to the safety of the World Government's position.
They were already going to kill them all for being involved in a capital crime.
@Stephen's:
Clover: If we assume those people were wiped out by some "enemy," it means those enemies should have survived later in history. Coincidentally enough… 800 years ago, at the end of the Lost 100 Years, was the precise birth of today's "World Government."
This is where they (IMO) should have ordered to eliminate Clover, if the information had any real signifigance…
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This is where they (IMO) should have ordered to eliminate Clover, if the information had any real signifigance…
well that's pretty much where his little speech ended anyway, the reason they waited until he said
"the name of this kingdom was…"
was just so Oda could leave us guessing once again, obviously it's name is a big deal so it's only right we be left on a cliffhanger about it for Oda-only-knows how long!
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Ya I bet Clover was full of shit, I mean he's the type of guy to attempt to tell the whole village something based on a flimsy theory, and the name he found, well he just made that up.
Oh wait, that's right, Clover's not that kind of guy. If Clover said it was important to know the name, it was important to know the name. Apparently it was so unimportant, that even not knowing the name the village knew too much and had to be annihilated.
rolls eyes
Way to downplay one of the baddest-ass character's in one piece. Clover's 'theory' is probably 100% correct, Robin still has to look for the true history because it goes far deeper than the name of the ancient kingdom, and he never got the name out in the first place.
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This is where they (IMO) should have ordered to eliminate Clover, if the information had any real signifigance…
**I believe the info had signifigance. They did say"He has learned too much". but I believe there are other things clover didn't find out. Some holes that the gouresi don't wan't anyone to hear.
I believe the name of the kingdom was one of these holes. And with the name one could uncover all the other holes. Which is what I believe clover mean by "the key to all"
I think any one of these holes would be a key that would open as many doors as the name of the kingdom
did.I mean why would the goursi care if people knew there was once a kingdom? Governments come and go and change. Knowing even that would probaley lead to other thing the gouresi don't want others to find out. some vital information.**
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As I said earlier, it would have been very simple to have Robin read all this information from the library firsthand and then have the WG attack the island. The scene of Clover being shot could even have started identically.
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As I said earlier, it would have been very simple to have Robin read all this information from the library firsthand and then have the WG attack the island. The scene of Clover being shot could even have started identically.
What, so instead of Clover giving the speech to the Gorousei and then getting shot by Spandine, you would have Robin do it instead?
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Well I´m still not sure that Clover´s last statement was about to end with the name of the kingdom. I mean he says, that the name is the key to it all so if he would already know it, wouldn´t the mystery have been solved already?
I don´t know how exactly the statement could have ended I just think the possibility that he was going to say something else is a valid option. :hmm:
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@Bad-Beat:
What, so instead of Clover giving the speech to the Gorousei and then getting shot by Spandine, you would have Robin do it instead?
I'm slowly getting convinced that you're arguing purely on some principle that I'm not aware of, because I didn't mean it like that in the least.
Clover's speech was exposed, but never established as fact.
It could have been established as fact (as far as scientific sources go), but it wasn't. Robin already knew about the secret nighttime meetings in the library, so why didn't she sneak in and read all their studies so that the reader could see them too? It's a writing technique also known as a "red herring", where the reader is being consciously mislead away from the real crucial plot points.
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Well I´m still not sure that Clover´s last statement was about to end with the name of the kingdom. I mean he says, that the name is the key to it all so if he would already know it, wouldn´t the mystery have been solved already?
I don´t know how exactly the statement could have ended I just think the possibility that he was going to say something else is a valid option. :hmm:
I didn't mean the whole of his statement, I just meant the bits that we heard him say..if that makes sense.
It could have been established as fact (as far as scientific sources go), but it wasn't. Robin already knew about the secret nighttime meetings in the library, so why didn't she sneak in and read all their studies so that the reader could see them too? It's a writing technique also known as a "red herring", where the reader is being consciously mislead away from the real crucial plot points.
well then it isn't much of a storyline is it. It's like Oda telling us what One Piece really is on the second page of Chapter One. By doing this it makes for a better storyline. Oda likes to keep people guessing throughout his story. If he told us all the information as soon as it became availible then One Piece wouldn't be very long at all, would it?
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"Clover's speech was exposed, but never established as fact."
Are you being stupid, or just a bad antagonist?
Clover's speech was correct, he wouldn't have yelled it out if he didn't have confidence in it. He had access to a poneglyph and a huge amount of information. So much that the Government itself decided it necessary to destroy it.
The whole scene would be retarded if it later turns out that Clover was full of shit, Oda wouldn't disrespect that awesome character like that, it's not going to turn out that he was wrong. He didn't get to say that much, but he did know a lot.
Robin's dream isn't over just because someone else accomplishes it before her, Gol D. Roger anyone? Even if Clover knew everything, he clearly didn't get to tell them, I think he found the key to further inquiry and understanding, the name of the ancient civilization. I think this because Clover thought it before he died, and Clover's not an idiot and he's not full of shit.
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Bad Beat you're avatar's almost as decent as mine man. It'd be better if it just said "Violence" and didn't have the animation though.
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If clover's speech was incorrect, why kill him? he'd pose no threat to the WG.
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@yokaiforte:
If clover's speech was incorrect, why kill him? he'd pose no threat to the WG.
A high authority claiming such a thing, whether it's not true or not, is a threat. It could cause unrest or a scandal among citizens disregarding if it's incorrect. Although I don't see why to doubt it's correctness. For Oda, storytelling wise it would be quite fool thing to do.
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@Octogon:
I believe the name of the kingdom was one of these holes. And with the name one could uncover all the other holes. Which is what I believe clover mean by "the key to all"
But we know already the name of the kingdom, or at least its capital: Shandora.
Kinai.
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But we know already the name of the kingdom, or at least its capital: Shandora.
Kinai.
err…Shandora is the old cizilization that Norland visited, hundreds of years ago. It is spoiler
the piece of land that got blasted into Skypiea, which the skypians call Vearth.
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@Bad-Beat:
err…Shandora is the old cizilization that Norland visited, hundreds of years ago. It is the piece of land that got blasted into Skypiea, which the skypians call Vearth.
The skypians call Vearth to every piece of earth.
But yes, you are right. Remember that in volume 28 Chapter 261 Robin found a monument that is "a tombstone for the city."From Null's translation the words of Robin are:
…year 402...that's 1100 years ago...time of destruction is ... 800 years ago ...!! That falls into the period when there was no record of history anywhere in the world, the "black decade…"Whit Eneru defeated and after recovering the gold bell we have other piece of the puzzle:
"Before the heart of truth there is no need for words. We are the recorders of the history existing in harmony with the sound of the great bell."
Kinai.
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Just because there was a Poneglyph in Shandora doesn't mean it was the ancient Kingdom talked about in 395. Alabasta has a Poneglyph but that wasn't the ancient Kingdom. The people that enscribed the poneglyphs were most likely the people from the kingdom, it wouldn't be the smartest thing, if they put all the poneglyphs together, now would it? By spreading them throughout the world, it makes it harder for the people who they don't want getting hold of them, from..getting them.
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But we know already the name of the kingdom, or at least its capital: Shandora.
Kinai.
Eh? Where did you get this from?
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@Bad-Beat:
Just because there was a Poneglyph in Shandora doesn't mean it was the ancient Kingdom talked about in 395.
You are right. But I am not talking about the Poneglyph.
1.-Nico Robin found a tombstone that set the time of the destruction of the city into the period when there wasn't record history.
2.-In Norlan's flashback Karugara said that:
a) It is called "the historical text"
b) "Shandora was decimated for defending the stone" and
c) that they are protecting the ancestors' past.
3.-Nico Robin found the words: "We are the recorders of the history existing in harmony with the sound of the great bell." before that she read Shandora Phoneglyph.
4.-Shandora's Phoneglyph gave the key to discover the rest of the Phoneglyphs to Gol D. Roger.
5.-Profesor Clover said that they've discovered that there was once a city, which no longer exists and Shandora was destroyed 800 years ago.
6.-And that It was a HUGE nation. If the nation was as powerfull and huge then they could cover its capital with GOLD.
7.-While only a few know about the Poneglyph in Alabastra, all the Cyandians tried to protect it.Of course I can be mistake, but in my opinion Shandora must be the city.
Kinai.
P.S: 8.-Chapter 272 Pag. 3 Nico Robin: "The original ancient text was taken to this city. This city was once at war with the enemy."
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A high authority claiming such a thing, whether it's not true or not, is a threat. It could cause unrest or a scandal among citizens disregarding if it's incorrect. Although I don't see why to doubt it's correctness. For Oda, storytelling wise it would be quite fool thing to do.
The gourosei was clearly dredged at having to call the buster call. He eliminated the entire Island after Clover let out the little bit that he WAS able to let out, and he had him shot before he could say the name of the ancient city.
OBVIOUSLY Clover wasn't full of shit, because they don't just lob the Buster Call around for the hell of it, and he specifically said, "Ohara knows too much" implying truth to Clover's statements.
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2.-In Norlan's flashback Karugara said that:
a) It is called "the historical text"
b) "Shandora was decimated for defending the stone" and
c) that they are protecting the ancestors' past.Correct me, if i'm wrong but, didn't the cochise (spelling??) tell "Karugara" (spelling??) that they won that war (800 years ago)? I seem to recall this from the ANIME version. I'm reading the MANGA version, but haven't reached Skypeia, yet, although i've read from chapter 356 to 395.
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I wonder why Clover said only the archeologists of the Island 'Ohara' could decipher the poneglyphs.
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@yokaiforte:
If clover's speech was incorrect, why kill him? he'd pose no threat to the WG.
I wouldn't say incorrect but, flawed yet having some truth in it…and of course, incomplete.
I hope we'll get some "D" infos by the end of the flashback...well, we'll obviously do...Sauro "D" was introduced in this flashback for a reason.
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You see the Gorousei say
"Ohara, knows too much"
of course that is going to mean that what Clover claims is true. the Gorousei aren't going to say….
"Ohara knows to much...but it isn't correct so Buster Call their asses for being complete newbs"
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Yeah, either Clover got it right, or got too close to the correct answer. If Clover was right and the name of the kingdom IS the key to it all, the simple fact the Oharans likely know this name makes them a threat.
I'm not so sure Shandora's the Lost Kingdom. Its destruction DOES time with that of the end of the Lost Century, but if they were decimated for defending the Poneglyph, then its more likely that Shandora battled the infant World Government after the Kingdom's fall. Plus, I think Shandora DID win that war, and their fall came after. Regardless, the existence of a Poneglyph suggests its NOT the Lost Kingdom, as it's unlikely that a weapon-knowledge bearing Poneglyph would've been hidden in the capital of the kingdom.
In fact, I think it might be more likely that there is NO Poneglyph in the Kingdom at all. If they saw their defeat coming, and wished to keep the stones a secret from the new World Government, then logically they would never hide one in the one place that, were they to lose, would absolutely be ransacked (the Kingdom itself).
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I believe everything Clover said was correct. But there are many,many other parts to the lost history that the gouresi don't wan't other to know. and clover had found out one of these, and that is the kingdoms name. for it seems that with the name you can discover new things the goursei would kill so that it would be kept a secewret.
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This was pointed out a few times, but it should be pointed out again. Supposing Clover knew everything perfectly, he then also had the name of the kingdom pinned down, which should have already solved the whole riddle. Yet the wording he uses makes it seem like he only had a tentative hypothesis about it.
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This was pointed out a few times, but it should be pointed out again. Supposing Clover knew everything perfectly, he then also had the name of the kingdom pinned down, which should have already solved the whole riddle. Yet the wording he uses makes it seem like he only had a tentative hypothesis about it.
**Yes a hypothes. And while he couldn't have gotten everything bt by bit. the info he had said was correct. And had grasped the concept.
And why is everyone assuming that if you know the name you know all? Sure it might be the key, but you still have to go and open the doors.**
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This was pointed out a few times, but it should be pointed out again. Supposing Clover knew everything perfectly, he then also had the name of the kingdom pinned down, which should have already solved the whole riddle. Yet the wording he uses makes it seem like he only had a tentative hypothesis about it.
A tentative hypothesis… hmm... the definition of hypothesis itself is a tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. But setting aside that, even if it were tentative, the Gorousei were very much startled by the evidence he presented, and as Octogon said, this shows that Clover seems to have grasped the concept. As long as he knows that, he is very much a threat to the stability of the WG.
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@Octogon:
And why is everyone assuming that if you know the name you know all? Sure it might be the key, but you still have to go and open the doors.
There's no definite answer for that, until we know the name. :P
It's always possible the supposed relevancy of this name was only Clover's theory, which might or might not mean anything meaningful to most of the people of the OP world.
Either way Clover didn't solve everything just by knowing the name, for some reason or the other. Most alarmingly he didn't know why the kingdom was a threat to WG - even while Clover's dialogue with Gorousei made it clear that he was aware of the ancient weapons. He said they could plan and handle the situation, and the Gorousei deemed that overly ideologist with good reason. Could there be something more to this that Clover knew about?
@Stephen's:
Spandine: Muhahaha…
Well, scholars of Ohara...!!!
THIS WILL MEAN
YOUR EXECUTIONS!!!
Oh what a shame...
That this day should be the end of all the greatest archaeologists in the world...!!They were going to Buster Call the island down regardless of what the extent of their knowledge was. I find the way Oda handled the revelations in the next chapter extremely suspicious and definitely hiding an ulterior motive or three. What's the secret, then? I don't know, other than it had everything to do with how much and what the reader learns about the ancient history.
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Ermm…. wasn't there evidence about something that Clover said about the Kingdom's ideals being a threat?
Clover: The Ancient Weapons are truly a threat to the world!!! BUT!!
More importantly, the existence and ideals of this country,
that threaten to be brought to light again are the GREATEST threat to your World Government!!!
I will not know what threat this is until it is revealed,
but the key to all,
the name of this fallen kingdom was–Phone: Kill him.
as you can see here, the name was the key, as was also the ideals that threatened the WG. On another note, they already had evidence of attacking Ohara, executing those who Nico Olvia went with and examining their items and noting that they came from Ohara.
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@yokaiforte:
Ermm…. wasn't there evidence about something that Clover said about the Kingdom's ideals being a threat?
It says right there he doesn't know what threat it is.
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no, he doesn't. But he knows that it is a BIG threat. He also knows that the key to all is the name.
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If the ideals were something WG is completely opposed to, like extreme pro-piracy, it would add up… but then again, would the citizens start to revolt just by knowing there was a pirate kingdom someday in the past? The puzzle pieces don't match...
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there's more to the WG than we know. Like Ivotas said once, Even if it isn't seen, it still happened, or something like that.
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Maybe it was a democracy (which the WG does NOT seem to be, on the whole) and it threatens their regime that way?
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possibly. It could be. It's just that just that fact doesn't stick to my mind as the only thing that could be a problem.
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I think the Buster Call IS the ancient weapon. CP9 was after Tom's blueprints because they could counter the ancient weapon, or so Iceburg says, and they might be inscribed in the Poneglyphs.
I'm starting to think that the Ancient people and their enemy fought with their respective weapons and "knocked" each other. The WG took advantage of this, "picked up" one of the weapons and "finished" the job. They couldn't "pick up" the other weapon because someone, with a D. in his/her name (maybe), got to it first. I think the Poneglyphs tell of this and that is why the WG fears anyone being able to read it.
The 2nd paragraph is shear speculation. Any comments?
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@HTC:
I think the Buster Call IS the ancient weapon. CP9 was after Tom's blueprints because they could counter the ancient weapon, or so Iceburg says, and they might be inscribed in the Poneglyphs.
I'm starting to think that the Ancient people and their enemy fought with their respective weapons and "knocked" each other. The WG took advantage of this, "picked up" one of the weapons and "finished" the job. They couldn't "pick up" the other weapon because someone, with a D. in his/her name (maybe), got to it first. I think the Poneglyphs tell of this and that is why the WG fears anyone being able to read it.
The 2nd paragraph is shear speculation. Any comments?
The buster call is not ONE weapon, it's a set of ships (Oda detailed it somwhere) all firing on one target.
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The buster call is not ONE weapon, it's a set of ships (Oda detailed it somwhere) all firing on one target.
Did you ever see Voyager (Star Trek)? In episode "Scorpion" (either part 1 or part 2), species 8472 use 8 starships, if i remember correctly, to fire on a ninth one, which CONCENTRATES it's destructive power, and obliterates a Borg planet. I was thinking something similar could apply here!
Besides, of all the powers we've seen so far, DF or otherwise, do you think any of them could destroy an island (i'm not referring to it's surface)? Remember: Spandam said that Ohara wasn't on any map the following year, didn't he?
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Reading these last few pages of responses, I see I might have inadvertently misled some people, specifically with regards to the last two lines of Clover's speech, regarding the name of the kingdom being the "key" to the puzzle.
In the Japanese the word order is something like this: "Holding the key to everything, the once-mighty kingdom's name is…" The "holding the key to everything" is a phrase that describes the second half of the sentence, although it could apply to TWO things: either "the kingdom's name" or just "the kingdom," whose name is dot dot dot. I made my original choice based on the flow of the sentence and didn't anticipate it leading to people thinking "the name is the key to the puzzle." I assume that when it is revealed it will be exciting and revelatory but it might not necessarily be as enlightening as some people might think based on the script. So I altered it slightly to match the Japanese a bit more.
It's not a big difference but when people are digging this deeply into semantics and syntax, I figure it's best to have my bases covered. Now it reads:
I will not know what threat this is until it is revealed,
but the name of this once-mighty kingdom,
which holds all the keys, was–In this case you can make the argument that the phrase "which holds all the keys" could apply to "the name of this once-mighty kingdom" or just "the kingdom." This is more in keeping with the Japanese.
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This chapter really has me questioning the relationship between the newly formed World Government and the Kingdom of Alabasta.
We know that Shandora fell during the time period when the WG came into existence. It would seem that the people of Shandora fought to protect their Poneglyph and this is what brought the ruin of their city.
Now, we know there is also a Poneglyph in Alabasta. According to a soldier who protests when Vivi wants to destroy the castle, Alabasta has a history streching back 4000 years, long before the creation of the WG and the period of lost history. Cobra seemed to realize the importance of protecting the Poneglyph, which means the kings of Alabasta have likely protected it since the period of the lost history.
But why then would Shandora be ruined while Alabasta remains untouched? Clearly Alabasta, like Shandora, must have been allied with the "kingdom" if they were willing to protect the Poneglyphs, but for some reason, the WG never came after Alabasta.
I wonder if perhaps the Alabastan king knew that the "kingdom" was going to be destroyed, so he publically allied his country with the WG so as not to be destroyed along with the "kingdom" and Shandora. But really, Alabasta was still allied with the "kingdom" and agreed to protect one of the Poneglyphs; their deception allowed them to slip through the WG's fingers.
I don't know what it all means, but I sure hope Oda gives us the flashback to this time period of lost history someday. I assume it will involve the ancient Alabasta and Shandora, possibly Water Seven, and probably other countries the crew will visit in the future. We've already had a 400 year old flashback so an 800 year old flashback isn't improbable. I'm really loving the scope of the history of Oda's One Piece world, it's just making this already amazing story that much more enjoyable.