Chapter 628: "Cleansing" Discussion

KaizokuJinbei

But hey that's my way of seeing things and I realize majority of this forum probably think they are half way through their power ups and are no where near Admiral level yet and will somehow manage to get to that level in the following weeks/ months it will probably take them to travel the rest of the way here on GL (naturally it is possible they will travel for years, but somewhat from past experience and what has been seen so far, I seriously doubt it….)

I actually more see that the Admirals got stronger because I'm pretty sure they weren't sitting around and twittling their thumbs for 2 years. Short and simple Strawhats at pre timeskip Admiral level and post timeskip Admirals at a undetermined level.

Ryuksgelus

I said this in the theories thread but I think the rest of the story will occur over a far greater elapsed amount of time than the first half. Instead of days or weeks between arcs months will have transpired. Each adventure/arc also won't lead directly to another like Alabasta>Jaya>Skypiea>Davy Back>Water 7/EB>TB>SA etc.

Instead between each major arc the SH will have visited multiple islands and have smaller adventures and experiences. This way they visit more of the New world and enough time passes for Zoro and Sanji to develop haki through experience and observation of Luffy's skills. Also means they won't jump from around Jinbei/Iva level to WB level with Luffy being crowned Pirate King in less than a year.

Louis cypher

@Urouge:

Anyway, if we assume that Zoro in particular will learn haki, then he should already have a basic grasp of it. Luffy didn't spend 2 years learning it so that Zoro could have it written in as a random powerup in some future arc, I'd hope, since it would trivialize the 2 years Luffy spent learning it.

True, I'd still prefer him to have some way of fighting against the logia users using sword techniques, but that's a stretch.

Louis cypher

@Urouge:

Anyway, if we assume that Zoro in particular will learn haki, then he should already have a basic grasp of it. Luffy didn't spend 2 years learning it so that Zoro could have it written in as a random powerup in some future arc, I'd hope, since it would trivialize the 2 years Luffy spent learning it.

True, I'd still prefer him to have some way of fighting against the logia users using sword techniques, but that's a stretch. I tend to simply take one side without fully thinking it through, I just like to argue.

Noqanky

@KaizokuJinbei:

I actually more see that the Admirals got stronger because I'm pretty sure they weren't sitting around and twittling their thumbs for 2 years. Short and simple Strawhats at pre timeskip level and post timeskip Admirals at a undetermined level.

This goes back to the whole jinbe vs luffy argument in that most of the staw hats, due to their age, have a larger progress of learning versus the admirals, who we can assume have refined their techniques over their rise through the ranks and probably don't undergo such radical growth.
Granted, we don't know what the admirals have been through. Or who the new admiral is, who replaced whoever became vice-admiral.

Spire

Haki is also a useful technique when it comes to deal damage to highly resistant fighters due to their DF powers (Luffy, Daz Bones or Jozu for example), without insane brute force. What Lucci did with really strong punches, Rayleigh could do it with a pinch. It's not just a way to deal with Logia users.

Urouge

@Louis:

True, I'd still prefer him to have some way of fighting against the logia users using sword techniques, but that's a stretch. I tend to simply take one side without fully thinking it through, I just like to argue.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but Rayleigh said that haki exists as the only reliable thing to combat fruit users with (I'm sure he didn't take Blackbeard's fruit into account).

Noqanky

@Urouge:

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but Rayleigh said that haki exists as the only reliable thing to combat fruit users with (I'm sure he didn't take Blackbeard's fruit into account).

Or seastone weapons, like Smoker's now-broken jutte.

Louis cypher

@Urouge:

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but Rayleigh said that haki exists as the only reliable thing to combat fruit users with (I'm sure he didn't take Blackbeard's fruit into account).

Yeah suuure you hate to, I bet you go around telling little kids Santa isn't real for kicks.

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

I would like to point out that haki isn't just some cheap trick to beat a logia type or see something coming. It's already been said that anyone can train the first twi haki obs and armor. Those two alone give a fighter an advantage in battle. If they didn't learn Haki they would pretty much knowingly give up an advantage to their bound to be strong future opponents. It wouldn't make sense if Sanji and Zoro couldn't learn Haki. Zoro wants to be able to cut through anything and Sanji wants to kick hard without his leg breaking. Now I know I'm going to hear a lot of arguring about they could do that without haki but imagine if they could do that without haki and then use haki… The best way to achieve unreal power is to develop Haki realistically. I just feel like the difference between Luffy Zoro and Sanji has never really been that much, but it's always been clear so why change that now and make it such a huge difference. Luffy needs to be able to rely on those two if he can't do it himself and they both know that.

Coolnerd89

@Louis:

I bet you go around telling little kids Santa isn't real for kicks.

That's my favorite past time :D
Aside from the synical comments, I kinda agree with Urouge on this one… Since it can be the only "Reliable" force to combat fruit users.
Sure you can use a weapon like Smokers, but as you saw, it's breakable. Take that away from him and he only has... well, his fruit powers. Which is a bad example.
You get the point though.

Urouge

@Louis:

Yeah suuure you hate to, I bet you go around telling little kids Santa isn't real for kicks.

Sooo juvenile. I tell them he has cancer.

isrnick

The translation of chapter 628 by Cnet:
http://mangahelpers.com/t/cnet128/releases/30131

MrXYZ

Luffy: Jimbei!! That man has captured my friends!! / If I don't do something about that Hordy, my friends and everyone else will be in trouble. // I'm going!! If you really want me to stop… / ...then you'll have to make me!!!

what the…even cnet wrote everyone else, aohige didn't say anything like that

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

I told my little cousin Santa only comes to naughty kids… Needless to say it back fired on me in the long run.

Sry that's off topic, just reminded me.

Louis cypher

@Urouge:

Sooo juvenile. I tell them he has cancer.

Best idea EVER!

Noqanky

@Coolnerd89:

That's my favorite past time :D
Aside from the synical comments, I kinda agree with Urouge on this one… Since it can be the only "Reliable" force to combat fruit users.
Sure you can use a weapon like Smokers, but as you saw, it's breakable. Take that away from him and he only has... well, his fruit powers. Which is a bad example.
You get the point though.

Haha, smoker's broke pretty much because only the tip was seastone. I guess that was a poor example as well.

But judging from the handcuffs, something made entirely of seastone shouldn't have a problem.

Demonicpoodle

@Urouge:

Sooo juvenile. I tell them he has cancer.

I fucking lol'd.

On topic, we'll see over the course of time, but yeah Haki does not = insta-win. We saw super-strong guys (Marco & Vista) both visibly slash Akainu with him commenting on their Haki, but Marco's claw and Vista's swords, which should have left Akainu bleeding 'cause he had a "dent" in his manga, just left his Logia form dented. So maybe it all depends on the mastery of your Devil Fruit, or Akainu's Defense Haki (Color of Armament) overpowered their attack Haki (Color of Armament as well, just honed into an attack).

Gia Sado

@Noqanky:

Or seastone weapons, like Smoker's now-broken jutte.

Or haki imbued weapons, but that would require haki…..so nevermind

Juvar

Glad to see everyone is pretty much agreeing now… That's what makes me love discussions like this I'll stand half-corrected and go with the thought that them not developing Gaki would be weak for the progression of the story due to it being a reliable way to be ABLE to fight Logias - not an instant win, of course.

That said and probably established, I still hope that they haven't just developed it fully over the timeskip (even using it at will at a lesser degree would be kind of a stretch in my eyes..), but instead REALISED that they have a strong potential, maybe pointed out by their respective trainers...

It is, IMO, likely that Zoro hearing the "voice" of stone, steel and such is a clear indication of his high affinity to CO, Mantra, while Sanji's DJ as well as now being able to break a Pacifista's neck when before he'd nearly break his own leg are an indication for CA.

So, I think they both have a vague grasp of those abilities, however are not yet "trained" to use this at a high degree of control - instead, they are required to train their "raw skills" as smn put it over the course of the story.

brennen.exe

@Juvar:

That said and probably established, I still hope that they haven't just developed it fully over the timeskip– even using it at will at a lesser degree would be kind of a stretch in my eyes.

I glanced over the discussion through the past few pages– which, really, this should go in another thread but whatever-- and while I'm not sure if someone mentioned it, assuming both Sanji and Zoro have some level of control using Haki, my guess is that they were not trained to use Haki, but rather developed their own skills that unknowingly use Haki, or in Zoro's case learned a different skillset that uses it by another name. I had made arguments like these loooong before Rayleigh confirmed it, but we now know for sure that other cultures in the series use Haki by other names, the most notable being Mantra. I've always argued that some Rokushiki techniques use aspects of Haki, and also that Zoro's sword skills use it as well. Shishi Sonson, 'breathing', etc.

Doing this allows both Zoro and Sanji to use aspects of Haki without knowing they are using "Haki"; rather they are using techniques that they learned or taught themselves (by incorporating their 'presense', as Ray put it) that just so happen to use what other people recognize as Haki. I'd like to think Diable Jambe, Zoro's 'breath', and Shishi Sonson are elements of this. Given that, I don't expect them to ever learn Haki, but rather pursue their own techniques that happen to use it.

Louis cypher

I'd like that, it's a good compromise between what's expedient for the story and the purity of the crew members fighting style.

Juvar

Yes, thank you, that is pretty much what I thought and tried to convey but couldn't express it as well as you did them unknowingly using it already with some of their techniques makes perfect sense to me, that is why I said them using Haki AT WILL would be a bit of a stretch. As you put it, it'd be perfectly acceptable and interesting to see what else they come up with.

Perfect compromise.

SH-Avenger

I just thought of something, isn't VDD following them/after the princess while the whole Flashback and announcement is going on? I'm thinking he may just make an appearance, coincidentally just as Luffy and Jinbei begin to do battle.

Juvar

Yeah that's what I thought as well, if you look a few pages back - VDD appearing is probably the most convenient way to end or at least intervene with the fight.

brennen.exe

I still think Nami is the ideal solution to their problem. She is, after all, the person who just forgave Jinbe and effectively "ended the cycle of hatred" so to speak. She's also Oda's favorite tool for literally smacking sense into people. To top it off, Oda already planted the seed of Sanji vs. Vander Decken by having Luffy leave Shirahoshi in his care. I'm not sold on that last part myself, however, as I've figured Sanji would battle Caribou, if anyone… but then I don't really care much about "match ups".

Jelly-Kun

i dont think so…. but i do have a feeling sanji will fight caribou since there both mermaid lovers, but caribou has proved to be weak and not much of a threat despite his DF. he's obviously going to fight one of the NFP as it happened in the arlong arc.

Cymelion

@brennen.exe:

To top it off, Oda already planted the seed of Sanji vs. Vander Decken by having Luffy leave Shirahoshi in his care. I'm not sold on that last part myself, however, as I've figured Sanji would battle Caribou, if anyone… but then I don't really care much about "match ups".

I don't know, it would be poetic if Caribou defeated Sanji like he defeated Fake Sanji XD

mcdreamy

@brennen.exe:

I still think Nami is the ideal solution to their problem. She is, after all, the person who just forgave Jinbe and effectively "ended the cycle of hatred" so to speak. She's also Oda's favorite tool for literally smacking sense into people. To top it off, Oda already planted the seed of Sanji vs. Vander Decken by having Luffy leave Shirahoshi in his care. I'm not sold on that last part myself, however, as I've figured Sanji would battle Caribou, if anyone… but then I don't really care much about "match ups".

I don't think Nami can stop them. Just like the fight with Ussop this is out of her hands. Even if she tried to stop them the problem would not disappear and Jinbei would still have to stop Luffy from leaving.

Juvar

@mcdreamy:

I don't think Nami can stop them. Just like the fight with Ussop this is out of her hands. Even if she tried to stop them the problem would not disappear and Jinbei would still have to stop Luffy from leaving.

Didn't actually think about that, and I must say, I kind of agree, because the two of them seemed much too serious about this to simply give them a sense-knocking from Nami for the matter to be resolved - they both have their reasons which are perfectly valid. Nami normally knocks sense into Luffy when he's acting stupid, and this is not really the case here. So I'll stand with what I said previously and guess that either Luffy beats Jinbe (to what degree and with how much struggle remains to be seen), or Decken appears and ends their fight - well, I'll not rule out the Nami option completely, it's still possible, but only after we've seen at least a small amount of punches exchanged… We'll see in two days anyways.

DooMinator

I do as well think, Nami will be the key. Not only did she forgive Jinbei, but Hatchi as well. She's definelty a role model when it comes to forgiving, and Jinbei should realize this as well. I don't think FI will be destroyed because it's simply destroyed during the fight, but because it won't be necessary any longer 'cause humans and fishmen will live together peacefully. And as Mihawk said: Luffy has the most powerful ability of all: to make friends and allies with whoever is at whereever Luffy is. And Nami telling Luffy to please stop the war between humans and fishmen is surely something he'll listen to.

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

Re: Chapter 628: "Cleansing" Discussion
Originally Posted by brennen.exe
I still think Nami is the ideal solution to their problem. She is, after all, the person who just forgave Jinbe and effectively "ended the cycle of hatred" so to speak. She's also Oda's favorite tool for literally smacking sense into people. To top it off, Oda already planted the seed of Sanji vs. Vander Decken by having Luffy leave Shirahoshi in his care. I'm not sold on that last part myself, however, as I've figured Sanji would battle Caribou, if anyone… but then I don't really care much about "match ups".
I don't think Nami can stop them. Just like the fight with Ussop this is out of her hands. Even if she tried to stop them the problem would not disappear and Jinbei would still have to stop Luffy from leaving.

@Juvar:

Didn't actually think about that, and I must say, I kind of agree, because the two of them seemed much too serious about this to simply give them a sense-knocking from Nami for the matter to be resolved - they both have their reasons which are perfectly valid. Nami normally knocks sense into Luffy when he's acting stupid, and this is not really the case here. So I'll stand with what I said previously and guess that either Luffy beats Jinbe (to what degree and with how much struggle remains to be seen), or Decken appears and ends their fight - well, I'll not rule out the Nami option completely, it's still possible, but only after we've seen at least a small amount of punches exchanged… We'll see in two days anyways.

I don't know. Think back to Whiskey Peak. It doesn't matter how serious the two fighters are if Nami thinks they are both stupid. Even after Nami broke up the fight they were still trying to fight each and she had to give them a second dose. So idk, although I think there is the chance it's to serious for her to step in I also see it as very probable that she steps in and says enough.

Mind you there was money on the line during their fight so idk.

Juvar

@DooMinator:

I do as well think, Nami will be the key. Not only did she forgive Jinbei, but Hatchi as well. She's definelty a role model when it comes to forgiving, and Jinbei should realize this as well. I don't think FI will be destroyed because it's simply destroyed during the fight, but because it won't be necessary any longer 'cause humans and fishmen will live together peacefully. And as Mihawk said: Luffy has the most powerful ability of all: to make friends and allies with whoever is at whereever Luffy is. And Nami telling Luffy to please stop the war between humans and fishmen is surely something he'll listen to.

You're right, he would listen to it. And while it's still possible that Nami stops the fight, I sincerely hope that we will still get a few pages of them fighting… Also, even when Luffy thinks it's reasonable (in case she only tells him to stop), if Jinbe persists on him not going after Hodi, Luffy won't stop. We've had this in Skypeia and Water 7, when Nami didn't make him stop because she knew that he was way too determined for her to change anything - and this is about his crew, so it's likely for him to persist on going.

@One_Piece_Of_My_Mind:

I don't know. Think back to Whiskey Peak. It doesn't matter how serious the two fighters are if Nami thinks they are both stupid. Even after Nami broke up the fight they were still trying to fight each and she had to give them a second dose. So idk, although I think there is the chance it's to serious for her to step in I also see it as very probable that she steps in and says enough.

Mind you there was money on the line during their fight so idk.

That was completely different because even though Zoro and Luffy were both determined, their reason to fight was completely stupid. So it was reasonable to stop it. In this case, both have their valid reason, you can't compare these two scenarios.

mcdreamy

@Juvar:

That was completely different because even though Zoro and Luffy were both determined, their reason to fight was completely stupid. So it was reasonable to stop it. In this case, both have their valid reason, you can't compare these two scenarios.

I was about to say the exact same thing lol.

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

@Juvar:

You're right, he would listen to it. And while it's still possible that Nami stops the fight, I sincerely hope that we will still get a few pages of them fighting… Also, even when Luffy thinks it's reasonable (in case she only tells him to stop), if Jinbe persists on him not going after Hodi, Luffy won't stop. We've had this in Skypeia and Water 7, when Nami didn't make him stop because she knew that he was way too determined for her to change anything - and this is about his crew, so it's likely for him to persist on going.

That was completely different because even though Zoro and Luffy were both determined, their reason to fight was completely stupid. So it was reasonable to stop it. In this case, both have their valid reason, you can't compare these two scenarios.

I do know what you mean by it being different situations but this up coming fight with Jinbe is also pretty unreasonable if you think about the situation at hand. The King (Jinbe's Interest) and Zoro and the gang (Luffy's Interest) are both on borrowed time so it doesn't make sense for them to square off right now. It's just too much of a time kill.

Jazzy Jinx

I'm hoping that next chapter Oda at least builds up the Luffy and Jinbei fight some more before they start throwing punches. I'd be able to forgive this coming out of the left field if there was at least an attempt in the next chapter to give it a more natural progression. But if they start swinging on the very first page then this fight is going to feel very forced.

Potentially necessary to showcase Luffy's growth, but forced.

smith

The princess will stop it after a few punches are thrown.

mcdreamy

@One_Piece_Of_My_Mind:

I do know what you mean by it being different situations but this up coming fight with Jinbe is also pretty unreasonable if you think about the situation at hand. The King (Jinbe's Interest) and Zoro and the gang (Luffy's Interest) are both on borrowed time so it doesn't make sense for them to square off right now. It's just too much of a time kill.

It's all about how humans beating up fishmen will affect the desire of the country to move above the water. It's true the others are in trouble but after years of fighting for this Jinbei is not willing to compromise their progress. And Luffy is not willing to compromise the safety of Zoro, Ussop and Brooke. So no matter how stupid it seems I guess they'll have to fight to decide it.

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

@mcdreamy:

It's all about how humans beating up fishmen will affect the desire of the country to move above the water. It's true the others are in trouble but after years of fighting for this Jinbei is not willing to compromise their progress. And Luffy is not willing to compromise the safety of Zoro, Ussop and Brooke. So no matter how stupid it seems I guess they'll have to fight to decide it.

I want to say only time can tell but that's not quite right… Only Oda can tell, for Oda knows all. Bastard. Il tell you one thing though. Being someone who started one piece when it was already finished the WB war this wait every week is fuckin agonizing. I can't imagine how some of you guys have been waiting for years every week patiently for a new one piece.

brennen.exe

Their fight is stupid because there is an obvious compromise, but both of them are blockheads who think they have to do everything themselves.

sanji499

I think Luffy vs Jinbei is a plot device to make Luffy injured when he will fight Hodi (underwater). Otherwise, Hodi does not even stand a chance.

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

@brennen.exe:

Their fight is stupid because there is an obvious compromise, but both of them are blockheads who think they have to do everything themselves.

One sentence to sum up exactly how I feel about this whole thing. I just feel like we've all talked this situation out to death and Oda's gonna have a simple solution to the problem on page two that none of us saw coming. That's just how the man is.

mcdreamy

@One_Piece_Of_My_Mind:

One sentence to sum up exactly how I feel about this whole thing. I just feel like we've all talked this situation out to death and Oda's gonna have a simple solution to the problem on page two that none of us saw coming. That's just how the man is.

I dunno…Luffy had an epic facial expression at the end of the chapter, I doubt Oda would waste it like that.

srazysnake

At this point, I think it would be downright anti-climatic should Caribou fight;;;
It wouldn't really matter if he is weak, but he is a Frriggin logia…. []
God I hope Caribou doesn't trash Jinbe, Sanji and whatnot lolz

don't forget, only Luffy has Haki currently.

One_Piece_Of_My_Mind

@srazysnake:

At this point, I think it would be downright anti-climatic should Caribou fight;;;
It wouldn't really matter if he is weak, but he is a Frriggin logia…. []
God I hope Caribou doesn't trash Jinbe, Sanji and whatnot lolz

don't forget, only Luffy has Haki currently.

Who says Luffy is the only one who knows Haki???

mcdreamy

@One_Piece_Of_My_Mind:

Who says Luffy is the only one who knows Haki???

He's the only one we've seen use haki repeatedly.

brennen.exe

What OPOMM is trying to say, is that we haven't seen any of the crew fight post-skip. Well we've seen a few tiny attacks here and there, but we haven't really seen the fruits of their labor. I just made the case on the page before this that both Zoro and Sanji could be capable of using it, if in their own way.

mcdreamy

@brennen.exe:

What OPOMM is trying to say, is that we haven't seen any of the crew fight post-skip. Well we've seen a few tiny attacks here and there, but we haven't really seen the fruits of their labor. I just made the case on the page before this that both Zoro and Sanji could be capable of using it, if in their own way.

Let's save this conversation for when they actually consciously use haki.

mallow

@sanji499:

I think Luffy vs Jinbei is a plot device to make Luffy injured when he will fight Hodi (underwater). Otherwise, Hodi does not even stand a chance.

Not necessarily. We don't know the upper limits of Hodi's juiced up strength.

Just_Gabe

I doubt Zoro or Sanji know Haki. Luffy's training revolved around learning and mastering it, while Zoro and Sanji (as well as the rest of the crew) were more on refining their skills and developing new techniques. But maybe some "basics" of CoA will be seen by them.