I always assumed Miss Valentine could just change her weight at will, and stayed with whatever weight she decided to be for as long as she wanted. And I assumed Bellamy has a spring body, but that its only noticeable if he pumps his legs.
General Devil Fruit Discussion
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Yeah but I wonder if Brook got touched by Sea Stone or BB - what would happen then O.o
Pell survived because he is a Falcon - Stop using him as a bad example.
The Peregrine Falcon reaches faster speeds than any other animal on the planet when performing the stoop,which involves soaring to a great height and then diving steeply at speeds of over 320 km/h (200 mph)
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Yeah but I wonder if Brook got touched by Sea Stone or BB - what would happen then O.o
Seastone would simply weaken him like the sea, because the sea doesn't remove powers.
Blackbeard is an interesting question though… Would he simply die, or what?
I'm really curious now.
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Seastone would simply weaken him like the sea, because the sea doesn't remove powers.
Blackbeard is an interesting question though… Would he simply die, or what?
I'm really curious now.Yeah tell that to Marco who got shot when in the seastone cuffs - and I am certain that the Cuffs shut down powers not weaken them.
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I know this was a whole page ago, but remember that time Luffy was stretched while he was submerged? Sure, he couldn't stretch himself, but others could. Effect not negated.
As someone already mentioned, and I thought I tried to explain it better than this but never mind, as far as I see it, by "effects", I meant an active use of the fruit to create something/change one's body/whatever you want, not a passive state that the user's body permanently became due to the fruit. So, Luffy, whose body is permanently rubber, still retains these properties, but he is normally too weak to use them, as the sea gradually takes away his strength (which at least I use as explanation for the Elephant Gun against Surume…).
So, Logia's for example should not be able to change their body into their element under water, or create their respective element - no freezing for Aokiji for example. However, this comes all down to a debate whether they have to use their powers actively or can use them passively, like Enel when he was sleeping or unconscious, Kizaru when he didn't see the shooter (Observation Haki...), et cetera.
@Vash:
The point is that Luffy never actively uses his ability like say, miss valentine or bellamy, his ability is passive, in fights, he doesn't activate his ability, he just makes use of it. In the same way, Brooke's soul/ghost didn't float off when they entered Fishman Island and were swept away
This exactly - Brooke stays "alive" even though his second life is only granted by his fruit. The sea doesn't just cancel it out, because it is just the state his body is in - a passive ability, he doesn't have to activate it.
@SGR:
I always assumed Miss Valentine could just change her weight at will, and stayed with whatever weight she decided to be for as long as she wanted. And I assumed Bellamy has a spring body, but that its only noticeable if he pumps his legs.
I'm not sure about those, simply because, as you said, Miss Valentine changes her body weight at will - she actively has to change it. So I assume she has a normal, "default" body state, and can then turn lighter or heavier at will. Bellamy, no clue, could be either in my opinion.
Seastone would simply weaken him like the sea, because the sea doesn't remove powers.
Blackbeard is an interesting question though… Would he simply die, or what?
I'm really curious now.
Agreed on Brooke - but why would Blackbeard die from seawater? Or Kairoseki for that matter. He'd drown, yeah, but not just die by getting touched by it - taking away his ability to use his darkness and quake powers wouldn't affect his body in any other way, would it?
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So, Juvar, answer me these questions:
1- Kizaru didn't get hurt because he was using Haki at that time (in shabondy I presume)? And not because it's his normal state?
2- You said their body won't change from their "active" state. So what do you call Chopper's body change in Ennis Lobby when he fell off to the water? (after he went monster mode.) -
So, Juvar, answer me these questions:
1- Kizaru didn't get hurt because he was using Haki at that time (in shabondy I presume)? And not because it's his normal state?
You got that wrong then, as I mentioned above
@Juvar:this all comes down to a debate whether they have to use their powers actively or can use them passively, like Enel when he was sleeping or unconscious, Kizaru when he didn't see the shooter (Observation Haki…), et cetera.
I was not trying to say he didn't get hurt because he used Haki to see the shot (yes, Shabondy), but mentioned this as an option. I should have put a question mark behind it. What I meant was that, as has been discussed plenty in this thread before, we can't tell for sure yet whether the Logia powers have to be actively used (in this case the explanation for turning on the "element state" at the right time would be Observation Haki), or if they are passive, or always turned on - I've read plenty good and plausible theories that support this here.
I myself am not saying it's one or the other, both seem possible. Being intangible can well be a Logia's normal state. That's why it's tricky to predict what will happen if they come in contact with the sea. I apologise for the ambiguity there.
2- You said their body won't change from their "active" state. So what do you call Chopper's body change in Ennis Lobby when he fell off to the water? (after he went monster mode.)
Again, I have to apologise if I explained this indistinctly, and also I am not exactly sure to which point you're referring - but I didn't mean to express it this way, I don't think their bodies don't change from their "active" state, it's exactly the opposite - under water, every thing that has to be "activated" by using one's fruit power, which includes all Zoan transformations, therefore especially Chopper's body change, not just from monster mode but all the others, too, gets "cancelled" - they return to their "default" body state (is what I was trying to convey :ninja: sorry.)
Therefore, Zoan's change to their normal, default body form (why ever in Chopper's case it is his hybrid form, I don't know, Oda chose it to be), Logia's would become tangible and assume human form (presuming that this is their "default" state, which I am not sure about (see above)), and for Paramecia's it probably differs - people that actively have to create or change something with their fruit (like Magellan's poison, probably Miss Valentine's weight, Moria's shadows) stay in their default form, but their creations get cancelled (as in, Moria's control over the shadows vanishes, Valentine assumes her "default" weight again, - actually, I'm not sure about Magellan's poison now… it might vanish. I don't know and can't predict anything for certain here, which I probably also cannot for the others - but it seems most logical/likely to me.)
So, their body does change from their "active" to their "passive" state in all cases, as far as I'm concerned - the question with all of these is, which one their passive state is. "Active" states and powers get cancelled, and they return to their "passive/default" forms. In my opinion.
Sorry for the essay. I hope it brought some more clarity in my interpretation/observation, please feel free to contradict them or add anything you feel necessary or ask about anything that's still unclear…
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I was not trying to say he didn't get hurt because he used Haki to see the shot (yes, Shabondy), but mentioned this as an option. I should have put a question mark behind it. What I meant was that, as has been discussed plenty in this thread before, we can't tell for sure yet whether the Logia powers have to be actively used (in this case the explanation for turning on the "element state" at the right time would be Observation Haki), or if they are passive, or always turned on - I've read plenty good and plausible theories that support this here.
I think you're confused a little here. See, you said that Luffy is permanently rubber then you said that you're not sure if Kizaru have to activate his fruit or not. Don't you think they should be the same?
Meaning it's their default state and they can't turn it off, because DFs are also a curse that their users can't get rid of or turn off. This should apply to all fruit types.Again, I have to apologise if I explained this indistinctly, and also I am not exactly sure to which point you're referring - but I didn't mean to express it this way, I don't think their bodies don't change from their "active" state, it's exactly the opposite - under water, every thing that has to be "activated" by using one's fruit power, which includes all Zoan transformations, therefore especially Chopper's body change, not just from monster mode but all the others, too, gets "cancelled" - they return to their "default" body state (is what I was trying to convey :ninja: sorry.)
Would you say that VDD's fruit follow this rule? Shouldn't the arrows stopped or got "canceled" under water? (Since the arrows moving is also an effect by his fruit.)
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You got that wrong then, as I mentioned above
I was not trying to say he didn't get hurt because he used Haki to see the shot (yes, Shabondy), but mentioned this as an option. I should have put a question mark behind it. What I meant was that, as has been discussed plenty in this thread before, we can't tell for sure yet whether the Logia powers have to be actively used (in this case the explanation for turning on the "element state" at the right time would be Observation Haki), or if they are passive, or always turned on - I've read plenty good and plausible theories that support this here.
I myself am not saying it's one or the other, both seem possible. Being intangible can well be a Logia's normal state. That's why it's tricky to predict what will happen if they come in contact with the sea. I apologise for the ambiguity there.
Again, I have to apologise if I explained this indistinctly, and also I am not exactly sure to which point you're referring - but I didn't mean to express it this way, I don't think their bodies don't change from their "active" state, it's exactly the opposite - under water, every thing that has to be "activated" by using one's fruit power, which includes all Zoan transformations, therefore especially Chopper's body change, not just from monster mode but all the others, too, gets "cancelled" - they return to their "default" body state (is what I was trying to convey :ninja: sorry.)
Therefore, Zoan's change to their normal, default body form (why ever in Chopper's case it is his hybrid form, I don't know, Oda chose it to be), Logia's would become tangible and assume human form (presuming that this is their "default" state, which I am not sure about (see above)), and for Paramecia's it probably differs - people that actively have to create or change something with their fruit (like Magellan's poison, probably Miss Valentine's weight, Moria's shadows) stay in their default form, but their creations get cancelled (as in, Moria's control over the shadows vanishes, Valentine assumes her "default" weight again, - actually, I'm not sure about Magellan's poison now… it might vanish. I don't know and can't predict anything for certain here, which I probably also cannot for the others - but it seems most logical/likely to me.)
So, their body does change from their "active" to their "passive" state in all cases, as far as I'm concerned - the question with all of these is, which one their passive state is. "Active" states and powers get cancelled, and they return to their "passive/default" forms. In my opinion.
Sorry for the essay. I hope it brought some more clarity in my interpretation/observation, please feel free to contradict them or add anything you feel necessary or ask about anything that's still unclear…
It seems to me that from everything you just said here that you think a Logia's natural state or "passive/default" if you will, is their human body. You said your not sure. However, if a logia was to be a default state of their element how would they survive falling in water? Wouldnt smoke or sand or fire or light just disperse in the water? Clearly smoker didnt diffuse in the water in alabasta and zoro was able to grab him and take him to the surface. So i would say their default or base state is their natural human body.
To account for the times logia are asleep or unaware why cant it just be an unconscious reaction by the body? Also it seems like Logia are almost always their default human form unless they activily choose not too because, like i have said before, ace would have walked around burning down everything he touched.
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I think you're confused a little here. See, you said that Luffy is permanently rubber then you said that you're not sure if Kizaru have to activate his fruit or not. Don't you think they should be the same?
Meaning it's their default state and they can't turn it off, because DFs are also a curse that their users can't get rid of or turn off. This should apply to all fruit types.It seems to me that from everything you just said here that you think a Logia's natural state or "passive/default" if you will, is their human body. You said your not sure. However, if a logia was to be a default state of their element how would they survive falling in water? Wouldnt smoke or sand or fire or light just disperse in the water? Clearly smoker didnt diffuse in the water in alabasta and zoro was able to grab him and take him to the surface. So i would say their default or base state is their natural human body.
To account for the times logia are asleep or unaware why cant it just be an unconscious reaction by the body? Also it seems like Logia are almost always their default human form unless they activily choose not too because, like i have said before, ace would have walked around burning down everything he touched.
I'll try to reply to both of you since it somehow links together. Yes, as I said, I'm not sure, there are too many points for each side to make both explanations plausible.
First of all, I don't think that it should be exactly the same for Luffy and e.g. Kizaru. One has a Logia, one a paramecia. The Gomu Gomu no Mi turns Luffy's body permanently into Rubber - it's basically a one-time power up, it happens, and then it's all the same for the rest of his life. Logia's can make their bodies change at will, as far as I can see it. Whether this is completely passive or an active power or whether their human body or their elemental body is the "default" state is not important for this, fact is, they can change from being a tangible human to becoming an intangible element.
So, that's already a big difference, and makes them not the same. And as themick has pointed out, seeing that Logia's when falling in water are in their human form and not their intangible element, this seems to be their "default" state.
I also like your explanation of their fruit allowing unconscious reactions, which would explain the times they turned into their element when they are asleep or not paying attention (Enel, Kizaru). That would mean, however, that even when it is unconsciously done, it is not a passive state of the body - it's still an active use of the fruit's power in this situation, although not "actively" used by the person at will at this time, but unconsciously. It makes sense. And Crocodile's little preaching of how you have to train your devil fruit only supports that theory, in my opinion. Meaning that you have to train it so your body is used to it so much that it becomes an unconscious reaction. I guess I'll go with that for now, although there are probably enough instances that can counter that theory… Please feel free to point them out.
Would you say that VDD's fruit follow this rule? Shouldn't the arrows stopped or got "canceled" under water? (Since the arrows moving is also an effect by his fruit.)
Good point. But I've thought of VDD's fruit differently. First of all, we have already seen that his fruit does allow the arrows and axes and whatever else to move through water. His fruit makes him "never miss a target", correct? The weapons he uses are not a creation of his fruit. The fruit just allows HIM to HIT his target. With whatever he uses. So, since we have already SEEN that they move through water, we pretty much HAVE to accept that water doesn't affect his projectiles - that may be because the fruit did not create them, and the fruit is not the primary thing that makes them actually move through water - it is Decken throwing them/giving them momentum. The fruit just makes them hit the target, which is whatever he touched. So since the fruit and it's power didn't come into direct contact with water, nothing gets cancelled.
That may be a somewhat weak explanation. But regardless of what rule devil fruit+water normally follows, how else would you explain it then?
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First of all, I don't think that it should be exactly the same for Luffy and e.g. Kizaru. One has a Logia, one a paramecia. The Gomu Gomu no Mi turns Luffy's body permanently into Rubber - it's basically a one-time power up, it happens, and then it's all the same for the rest of his life. Logia's can make their bodies change at will, as far as I can see it. Whether this is completely passive or an active power or whether their human body or their elemental body is the "default" state is not important for this, fact is, they can change from being a tangible human to becoming an intangible element.
It is the same for Zoans too is it not? Well let's look at these three cases: 1- Luffy ate his DF and turned to rubber immediately. 2- Chopper ate his fruit and could turn to one of three forms, one of them is his natural form. 3- Ace ate his fruit and burned Oars jr.'s hat multiple times. Where is the difference here?
You're gonna tell me that Ace trained his fruit so that he can switch it on and off, and I tell you that he only trained the ability of creating fire.So, that's already a big difference, and makes them not the same. And as themick has pointed out, seeing that Logia's when falling in water are in their human form and not their intangible element, this seems to be their "default" state.
That's really not a good point. If that's true, then Aokiji's hand shouldn't have turned to ice when he froze the water in "long-r long-l". If it is as you say, then his hand should've stayed normal.
Besides you could look at it as a manga type of thing. Just like their clothes can extend or be intangible.I also like your explanation of their fruit allowing unconscious reactions, which would explain the times they turned into their element when they are asleep or not paying attention (Enel, Kizaru). That would mean, however, that even when it is unconsciously done, it is not a passive state of the body - it's still an active use of the fruit's power in this situation, although not "actively" used by the person at will at this time, but unconsciously.
This actually support the point of it being on all the time. You're basically saying that when they're asleep their power is on and when they're awake their power is on.
Soooo it's on all the time.And Crocodile's little preaching of how you have to train your devil fruit only supports that theory, in my opinion.
That I believe was a translation mistake.
Meaning that you have to train it so your body is used to it so much that it becomes an unconscious reaction. I guess I'll go with that for now, although there are probably enough instances that can counter that theory… Please feel free to point them out.
I'm saying this, but without the training part.
Good point. But I've thought of VDD's fruit differently. First of all, we have already seen that his fruit does allow the arrows and axes and whatever else to move through water. His fruit makes him "never miss a target", correct? The weapons he uses are not a creation of his fruit. The fruit just allows HIM to HIT his target. With whatever he uses. So, since we have already SEEN that they move through water, we pretty much HAVE to accept that water doesn't affect his projectiles - that may be because the fruit did not create them, and the fruit is not the primary thing that makes them actually move through water - it is Decken throwing them/giving them momentum. The fruit just makes them hit the target, which is whatever he touched. So since the fruit and it's power didn't come into direct contact with water, nothing gets cancelled.
Us seeing the arrows moving through water means we can use that to compare with other stuff (AKA Coribou). Wait did you just bend your theory to explain this differently?
Even if we say that the fruit doesn't make them move. It is, though, what makes them go after a specific target, right?In the end this only proves that water can't cancel "effects" of any fruit.
and try to make it short alright.. actually wait, write as much as you like. I'll be back later.
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Agreed on Brooke - but why would Blackbeard die from seawater? Or Kairoseki for that matter. He'd drown, yeah, but not just die by getting touched by it - taking away his ability to use his darkness and quake powers wouldn't affect his body in any other way, would it?
You misunderstood my post; I meant, "what about Blackbeard's effect on Brook's fruit?"
Worded it poorly.
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It is the same for Zoans too is it not? Well let's look at these three cases: 1- Luffy ate his DF and turned to rubber immediately. 2- Chopper ate his fruit and could turn to one of three forms, one of them is his natural form. 3- Ace ate his fruit and burned Oars jr.'s hat multiple times. Where is the difference here?
You're gonna tell me that Ace trained his fruit so that he can switch it on and off, and I tell you that he only trained the ability of creating fire.That's really not a good point. If that's true, then Aokiji's hand shouldn't have turned to ice when he froze the water in "long-r long-l". If it is as you say, then his hand should've stayed normal.
Besides you could look at it as a manga type of thing. Just like their clothes can extend or be intangible.This actually support the point of it being on all the time. You're basically saying that when they're asleep their power is on and when they're awake their power is on.
Soooo it's on all the time.That I believe was a translation mistake.
I'm saying this, but without the training part.
Us seeing the arrows moving through water means we can use that to compare with other stuff (AKA Coribou). Wait did you just bend your theory to explain this differently?
Even if we say that the fruit doesn't make them move. It is, though, what makes them go after a specific target, right?In the end this only proves that water can't cancel "effects" of any fruit.
and try to make it short alright.. actually wait, write as much as you like. I'll be back later.
Im not really following what you are trying to say. But I will say I agree that water doesnt cancel the effects of any fruit. We have seen Aokiji freeze water, akainu throw magama fists into the water and turn it into boiling water, and we have seen kizaru shoot light beams at Law's fleeing submarine. At no time did these attacks hit the water and disappear. Also, there is no reason to think that just because a fruit user fell in water that the effects his fruit create would disappear. Assuming those effects are in effect outside of the DF user. So Mr 2 would turn normal (aka not be a copy of someone else) in water while Mr 3s wax wouldnt just vanish because he fell in the water.
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and try to make it short alright..
Will do.
It is the same for Zoans too is it not? Well let's look at these three cases: 1- Luffy ate his DF and turned to rubber immediately. 2- Chopper ate his fruit and could turn to one of three forms, one of them is his natural form. 3- Ace ate his fruit and burned Oars jr.'s hat multiple times. Where is the difference here?
You're gonna tell me that Ace trained his fruit so that he can switch it on and off, and I tell you that he only trained the ability of creating fire.You just showed it's not the same by bringing in Zoans - 3 classes. I'm not telling you Ace trained in order to be able to turn his fruit on and off - Logia's have 2 forms, 1 being tangible human, 2 being "intangible" element (depending ON the element, e.g. Aokiji). What he trained was switching between those, because he had difficulties doing this at will - as seen with burning the hat.
Aokiji's hand shouldn't have turned to ice when he froze the water in "long-r long-l". If it is as you say, then his hand should've stayed normal.
Besides you could look at it as a manga type of thing. Just like their clothes can extend or be intangible.I could say that's because seawater only affects them if they are more than half submerged, remember that? Manga type of thing - it really doesn't change their "default" body being their human body, seeing Smoker submerged . Or not being able to go through the prison bars at Rain Dinners.
This actually support the point of it being on all the time. You're basically saying that when they're asleep their power is on and when they're awake their power is on.
Soooo it's on all the time.First, yes, if they train it.
Second, yes, I didn't contradict it.
However, it's not about being ON or OFF, it's about if it is the normal body state. It's still actively used, even when you say the power is "on" all the time, and not their passive default body state.Us seeing the arrows moving through water means we can use that to compare with other stuff (AKA Coribou). Wait did you just bend your theory to explain this differently?
Even if we say that the fruit doesn't make them move. It is, though, what makes them go after a specific target, right?In the end this only proves that water can't cancel "effects" of any fruit.
Yes, I bent my theory because you pointed out a flaw, so I adapted it - that's what you do. That's what this is all about.
We agree that water cancels active forms, right? We also agree that it does not affect the power of a devil fruit user if it is a permanent state. Or do you not think so? In any way, it is all about how single fruits are affected, because they behave in different ways. I'll take back that every thing that has to be activated gets cancelled, but still every fruit user will change to his default form when in water. And for Logia's this appears to be their human form. Happy?
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Im not really following what you are trying to say. But I will say I agree that water doesnt cancel the effects of any fruit. We have seen Aokiji freeze water, akainu throw magama fists into the water and turn it into boiling water, and we have seen kizaru shoot light beams at Law's fleeing submarine. At no time did these attacks hit the water and disappear. Also, there is no reason to think that just because a fruit user fell in water that the effects his fruit create would disappear. Assuming those effects are in effect outside of the DF user. So Mr 2 would turn normal (aka not be a copy of someone else) in water while Mr 3s wax wouldnt just vanish because he fell in the water.
That's probably the most important aspect.
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And Crocodile's little preaching of how you have to train your devil fruit only supports that theory, in my opinion.
That I believe was a translation mistake.
First, yes, if they train it. […] I bent my theory because you pointed out a flaw, so I adapted it - that's what you do. That's what this is all about.
I haven't been following this argument at all, but skimming the page I noticed you overlooked another flaw in your argument that he pointed out.
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I haven't been following this argument at all, but skimming the page I noticed you overlooked another flaw in your argument that he pointed out.
I didn't overlook it, and if it's a mistranslation, ok, but it's not a major supporting argument at all - I just brought it in when I still thought it was valid. In the second post of me you quoted, I wasn't referring to whatever Crocodile said now, but more to when we see Ace burning stuff unintentionally. So I still believe that becoming accustomed to your fruit is what makes "turning the power on" (the terminology here is getting pretty annoying) a subconscious response of your body, and it requires training to be able to switch between the tangible and elemental states whenever one wishes to. I don't see the flaw in this.
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Im not really following what you are trying to say. But I will say I agree that water doesnt cancel the effects of any fruit. We have seen Aokiji freeze water, akainu throw magama fists into the water and turn it into boiling water, and we have seen kizaru shoot light beams at Law's fleeing submarine. At no time did these attacks hit the water and disappear. Also, there is no reason to think that just because a fruit user fell in water that the effects his fruit create would disappear. Assuming those effects are in effect outside of the DF user. So Mr 2 would turn normal (aka not be a copy of someone else) in water while Mr 3s wax wouldnt just vanish because he fell in the water.
That's almost exactly what I'm saying, it's just that I like to toy with my prey a little bit. :ninja:
Will do.
Thank you.
You just showed it's not the same by bringing in Zoans - 3 classes.
Dude I'm not telling you their exactly the same thing, I'm just saying they share some of the basic aspects of a DF users. I brought up chopper to show you that he's power is also permanent just like Luffy.
Zoans have 3 classes? Yes, we've been told about that. But…Logia's have 2 forms
Well I want you to show me where was this mentioned.
I could say that's because seawater only affects them if they are more than half submerged, remember that?
Ohh, you saw that. :ninja:
seeing Smoker submerged.
Yeah, that's probably an advantage Paramecia have over Logia in water. You can't really show smoke being carried around.
Or not being able to go through the prison bars at Rain Dinners.
Seastone works a bit different than water.
I'll take back that every thing that has to be activated gets cancelled.
That's basically why I started this discussion.
Happy?
No!
Edit: Answer me this question: Why didn't Ace make his body tangible when he got fisted? Why was he in Logia form or intangible?
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I haven't been following this argument at all, but skimming the page I noticed you overlooked another flaw in your argument that he pointed out.
It's cool. I got what I want out of this.
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Dude I'm not telling you their exactly the same thing, I'm just saying they share some of the basic aspects of a DF users. I brought up chopper to show you that he's power is also permanent just like Luffy.
Zoans have 3 classes? Yes, we've been told about that. But…They do, but I meant 3 classes of fruits - doesn't matter.
Well I want you to show me where was this mentioned.
It wasn't, it's my interpretation, as I said. Never asked you to agree, but if not, then tell me what you think instead.
Yeah, that's probably an advantage Paramecia have over Logia in water. You can't really show smoke being carried around.
Seastone works a bit different than water.Fair enough. You win. This is, however, completely ignoring everything about the user's default state and how their powers get affected - mind bringing some of your own ideas in for a change?
That's almost exactly what I'm saying, it's just that I like to toy with my prey a little bit. :ninja:
But I agree with that as well, so what's your problem?
No!
What about now? :ninja:
Answer me this question: Why didn't Ace make his body tangible when he got fisted? Why was he in Logia form or intangible?
I told you right from the beginning that I didn't want to go into this to deeply because it has been discussed plenty, go back a few pages and read that instead. Also, you have something mixed up, he did become tangible, that's the whole point of him dying.
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Seastone works a bit different than water.
I disagree with this statement. But there is not much proof either way. Its just my opinion that seastone works the same as the "ocean".
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Answer me this question: Why didn't Ace make his body tangible when he got fisted? Why was he in Logia form or intangible?
I've always seen it as Logia's have human bodies, but happen to also be made out of whatever element.
Note Raleigh's lesson on Substantial Bodies of DF users. This could be a reason it hit him if he were "intangible."
point three: So it was MAGMA. It likely burned through his whichever state he was in.Also, I have also always read seastone=ocean in regards to DF users and powers.
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Maybe if you had a shorter name that was easier to type, I'd be willing to forgive you. :ninja:
Work on your typing skills, dear.
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Ohoho, I'll do that right after I work on my Japanese so that I don't have to rely on scanlations.
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@I:
Not sure if you meant to address this to me or Brennen, but since I mentioned it, my apologies for not understanding your meaning. As it turns out, I was not at my peak, due in part to the sleepover/party here, a little too much wine, perhaps better left unmentioned, and the more or less to be expected lack of sleep. As a result, I am sorely disappointed in myself for not completing our little debate in proper form, and want to offer my apologies for the poor showing and ridiculous out of place crowing. At the time I was deluded enough to think it was so outlandish as to be debunked in quick order. After a refreshing (and embarassingly lengthy) nap, I am here to suggest that that was not the time to suddenly turn all chivalrous, sir.
However, I am willing to let bygones be bygones, and I (hopefully) look forward to our next debate.
I love how mom takes a lengthy paragraph to say something this is so simple it's scary.
for example, she could have said:
@I:me or bren? wahtevs. i was tired. sorry. awake now.
let's argue again soon.goku (eng. dub voice): and this is to go.. even… further...
@I:
oops. sorry.
<3 you buster
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speaking about logia, I was in an awe when I saw Ace's fruit..I want that fruit lol
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@Juvar: You've been contradicting yourself in your posts but I'm just too lazy to show you.
Let me tell you why your theory about Logia training to be in/tangible doesn't make sense. 1- It has never been mentioned in the manga. 2- The other two classes don't have it. "It's my interpretation". Well your interpretation is wrong. 3- If it actually was about training then shouldn't they be able to choose a single part and make it in/tangible? Did I mention that it doesn't work like that with the other classes? Like Luffy can't make his hand rubber while the rest of his body is normal.
Trying to make things up so they match your theory is not really smart. "Oh yeah, he can be tangible but when he's attacked, his fruit act unconsciously". Lol what?Now your comment about Ace. At first I thought you're saying Logia can turn their power on or off, then I realized you're saying they have 2 forms. Now I realize that not only you're saying that they can be tangible, you're also saying they can use their power too while in that state. Lol what?
So wait, Ace was tangible and was using his power at the same time? Dude must be wearing a fireproof suit then, right?Here, Ace died because he got hit by a fruit superior to his (natural enemy), not because he was tangible. Because he can't be. Period.
@themic: Check Mr.1 in Imple Down and Luffy in Arlong Park.
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@Juvar: You've been contradicting yourself in your posts but I'm just too lazy to show you.
Let me tell you why your theory about Logia training to be in/tangible doesn't make sense. 1- It has never been mentioned in the manga. 2- The other two classes don't have it. "It's my interpretation". Well your interpretation is wrong. 3- If it actually was about training then shouldn't they be able to choose a single part and make it in/tangible? Did I mention that it doesn't work like that with the other classes? Like Luffy can't make his hand rubber while the rest of his body is normal.
Trying to make things up so they match your theory is not really smart. "Oh yeah, he can be tangible but when he's attacked, his fruit act unconsciously". Lol what?Sweetheart, here, you are just completely wrong. "The other two classes don't have it"? What about Kaku messing up his transformations? Turning into a full giraffe when he didn't want to? That is the SAME goddamn thing - not being able to control the transformation at will fully! That isn't "my interpretation" anymore. "Shouldn't they be able to choose a single part" - YES! THIS EXACTLY! See how Akainu only makes his fist lava? Only partially element? Eh? Thank you for giving me so many examples to build on, my friend.
Don't bring up Luffy, it's long established his fruit makes him PERMANENTLY rubber.
And no, the tangible human form is most likely their normal default state, just as the tangible human form is the normal default state for Zoan's (assuming it was a Human eating the fruit).Now your comment about Ace. At first I thought you're saying Logia can turn their power on or off, then I realized you're saying they have 2 forms. Now I realize that not only you're saying that they can be tangible, you're also saying they can use their power too while in that state. Lol what?
So wait, Ace was tangible and was using his power at the same time? Dude must be wearing a fireproof suit then, right?Stupid. The base is tangible. They can activate their element powers at will. With the body getting used to the power or with the help of mantra, they can activate their element powers unconsciously - to evade attacks. NOT being used to the power given (i.e. newly gained) leads to messing up with the "transformation" from tangible human to intangible element. I wasn't ever jumping between points or contradicting myself as you did in what I quoted.
Here, Ace died because he got hit by a fruit superior to his (natural enemy), not because he was tangible. Because he can't be. Period.
He can very well be tangible, which was FINALLY proven by Caribou when he was aboard the Sunny, so don't even start arguing that way when you didn't get that much. Ace would have died either way, was he tangible or intangible, because Akainu's fruit is superior - yes.
I've always seen it as Logia's have human bodies, but happen to also be made out of whatever element.
Note Raleigh's lesson on Substantial Bodies of DF users. This could be a reason it hit him if he were "intangible."
point three: So it was MAGMA. It likely burned through his whichever state he was in.This exactly.
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facepalm
@Juvar:Sweetheart, here, you are just completely wrong. "The other two classes don't have it"? What about Kaku messing up his transformations? Turning into a full giraffe when he didn't want to?
Messing up his transformation by turning to ONE OF HIS GODDAMN FORMS.
LOGIAS DON"T HAVE FORMS. You can't keep up can you?
That is the SAME goddamn thing
No it isn't. I say one thing and then you talk about something else.
"Shouldn't they be able to choose a single part" - YES! THIS EXACTLY!
Lol. The problem is you're just replying without thinking what your post means. If he can transform a single part, that would make it another form. Hello!! Imagine the possibilities. Hand form, arm form, head form, chest form, leg form, foot form, p…. etc.
See how Akainu only makes his fist lava? Only partially element? Eh?
Lol, his fist is lava naturally. I know what your problem is. You think that we need to see the lava to know his body is lava or not.
Thank you for giving me so many examples to build on, my friend.
You didn't build anything, friend.
Stupid. The base is tangible. They can activate their element powers at will. With the body getting used to the power or with the help of mantra, they can activate their element powers unconsciously - to evade attacks. NOT being used to the power given (i.e. newly gained) leads to messing up with the "transformation" from tangible human to intangible element. I wasn't ever jumping between points or contradicting myself as you did in what I quoted.
Yeah, you're hopeless.
He can very well be tangible, which was FINALLY proven by Caribou when he was aboard the Sunny, so don't even start arguing that way when you didn't get that much. Ace would have died either way, was he tangible or intangible, because Akainu's fruit is superior - yes.
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Proven by Carib...? Arghh.
I won't bother anymore.
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facepalm
Messing up his transformation by turning to ONE OF HIS GODDAMN FORMS.
LOGIAS DON"T HAVE FORMS. You can't keep up can you?
No it isn't. I say one thing and then you talk about something else.
Lol. The problem is you're just replying without thinking what your post means. If he can transform a single part, that would make it another form. Hello!! Imagine the possibilities. Hand form, arm form, head form, chest form, leg form, foot form, p…. etc.
Lol, his fist is lava naturally. I know what your problem is. You think that we need to see the lava to know his body is lava or not.
You didn't build anything, friend.
Yeah, you're hopeless.
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Proven by Carib...? Arghh.
I won't bother anymore.
You make me laugh, you are the one who doesn't respond to what I'm saying - ok, you think they don't have a tangible human body, they are always their element. I happily disagree with this.
Logia's having a human, tangible form, their original body, is the whole point of the fruit, otherwise they couldn't hold things, Sea Stone wouldn't exactly affect them the way it dies because they would STILL be their element, and their "substantial body", by using Armament Haki, couldn't be "hit" like that - because that's what it is, their base human form.
Your post is hilarious, seeing that as soon as someone has a different opinion you just go facepalm AARRGH… But it's fine, don't bother with it anymore, you haven't achieved anything.
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facepalm
Messing up his transformation by turning to ONE OF HIS GODDAMN FORMS.
LOGIAS DON"T HAVE FORMS. You can't keep up can you?
No it isn't. I say one thing and then you talk about something else.
Lol. The problem is you're just replying without thinking what your post means. If he can transform a single part, that would make it another form. Hello!! Imagine the possibilities. Hand form, arm form, head form, chest form, leg form, foot form, p…. etc.
Lol, his fist is lava naturally. I know what your problem is. You think that we need to see the lava to know his body is lava or not.
You didn't build anything, friend.
Yeah, you're hopeless.
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Proven by Carib...? Arghh.
I won't bother anymore.
I've been reading your discussion with delight but now I just want to say you better stop it asm00200 because you are not fairing well, Not fairing well at all and it is painful to see.
Anyway, carry on and sorry for my short interruption !Remember, remember, the 5th of November
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@themic: Check Mr.1 in Imple Down and Luffy in Arlong Park.
Luffy is ALWAYS rubber so i dont know what your talking about Arlong Park for. Even under the ocean he is rubber and can stretch. He just doesnt have the energy to do it himself. Mr 1 in ID? I am assuming you mean when he was hit and bled while wearing seastone cuffs. My assumption is that Mr 1 is not MADE of blades in the same way luffy is MADE of rubber. Mr. 1 can simply turn any part of him into a blade. He does this in the same manner that a Logia can avoid a sneak attack. The instant he is hit or contacts something his body turns to a blade in that area.
My reason for believe this is because people claim that Mr 1 is like Luffy. They claim he is ALWAYS a blade like how luffy is ALWAYS rubber. yet we have seen Luffy touching seastone or having seastone on him and we have even seen him in the ocean.
In Rain Diners when Smoker places his jutte on luffy luffy says "its just like falling in the ocean". But no time have we had Luffy say something liek "omg my body isnt rubber anymore because im touching seastone". Luffy has been rubber for what over 10 years? I would think if he suddenly stopped being rubber it would be a big enough deal that he would comment on it.
All this brings me to another point. Every time Luffy touches seastone he cant even move. Where as Mr 1, ace, robin, Mr 2, Mr 3, Croc and probably more are all shown to be able to walk and talk and move fine in seastone cuffs. We know seastone and the ocean drain energy. My idea is that it drains the energy you need to activate your fruit power yet leaves your human body relatively un touched. However, in Luffys case he IS rubber and will ALWAYS be rubber (not counting being touched by BB). Therefore it drains almost all of Luffys energy not even allowing him to move.
You make me laugh, you are the one who doesn't respond to what I'm saying - ok, you think they don't have a tangible human body, they are always their element. I happily disagree with this.
Logia's having a human, tangible form, their original body, is the whole point of the fruit, otherwise they couldn't hold things, Sea Stone wouldn't exactly affect them the way it dies because they would STILL be their element, and their "substantial body", by using Armament Haki, couldn't be "hit" like that - because that's what it is, their base human form.
Your post is hilarious, seeing that as soon as someone has a different opinion you just go facepalm AARRGH… But it's fine, don't bother with it anymore, you haven't achieved anything.
My post above is the reason I quoted you. Because it is kind of the basic idea about why I think what I posted.
Also, if Logia were always their element Akainu would melt Marijoa, Aokiji would freeze everything, and Ace would burn down everything he touched. This clearly doesnt happen so it doesnt seem likly that they are always default in their elemental state.
I know people will say "ace burned Oars hat!!!!!@!@!#$" Well sure he did. But it doesnt say how. Making such a big intricate had is probably frustrating. He might have messed up on a part and had a tantrum and activated his fruit accidentaly. The point is we dont know. All we know is Oda made a funny scene about a fire man weaving a straw hat.
We never heard stories about "wow ace you burned down that resturant randomly because you are always your element and cant control it". Not even when he sleeps or when hes drunk.
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You know I would like to see if Luffy shot while being affected by Seastone - just so we know how it completely works.
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I've been reading your discussion with delight but now I just want to say you better stop it asm00200 because you are not fairing well, Not fairing well at all and it is painful to see.
Anyway, carry on and sorry for my short interruption !Lol. Hey, shrug I did what I could, and most of these stuff have been discussed before already. I mean we can't save em all can we?
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I love how mom takes a lengthy paragraph to say something this is so simple it's scary.
for example, she could have said:
goku (eng. dub voice): and this is to go.. even… further...
<3 you buster
eerie, when one is fencing, one must use the proper foil…
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! Guys!! I have these questions that I don't really need an answer for and I feel like asking them. Yeah, I know they've been asked before but I really needed to put them here.
! Can DF users shut down their power? Like, can Luffy or Chopper or Ace stop being their power? I don't know. I mean I'm pretty sure Luffy is always Rubber, and Chopper as a zoan is always in one of his gained forms that we've been told about in his intro. But Logias? Seems unrealistic. They can't be different than the other, can they? Even side effects like drowning in the sea and Blackbeard taking double the normal damage, also we see moments like when Enel was asleep yet he didn't get hurt or hit by the shandian. They are similar to Paramecia and Zoan in that aspect too, meaning their powers are always on, right?
! Wait wait wait. How can all Paramecia users be the same? For example Mr.1. How can he always be blademan? We saw him with Zoro. He was always turning the part that got hit to a blade. But wait, there was that instant when he fought Mr.2 in the café. He went through the wall like he cut the wall in a perfect shape even though we didn't see any blade. Got it.
! Ok, another topic . Can Logia be tangible or intangible? We've seen Logia before, and one of its strongest characterizations is being intangible, right? But wait, if a Logia is always intangible, how can they wear their clothes, drink or eat, sit in their seat without burning these things? Heck how are they even walking on the ground? So they must be able to change their state from intangible to tangible, right? But something doesn't really make sense here. If we say they need to be tangible to.. let's say wear their clothes. Doesn't that make their clothes be not part of what they are? Like their clothes should be treated like an outside object: a cup or a chair or anything you want, right? But that doesn't really happen. Their clothes change with them. They don't get burned or frozen or anything. They just return back like normal, right? So the question now, shouldn't some other objects be treated in a similar way? Does that mean that it doesn't really matter wither you're tangible or not, so that's why your clothes don't fall off?
! Another thing is if they can be tangible, how can they use their power at the same time? Shouldn't they be affected like a normal human? I mean, we see some parts of Ace or Akainu on fire, but they don't get affected like a normal tangible body, right? So what? Can they be tangible or not? And if they can be partially tangible, wouldn't that make it a transformation? That would mean a Logia can have multiple forms, just like Chopper has a form for each different part or move he has, right? I don't know. Seems too complicated I must say.
! Ok, let's say that Logia can be in/tangible. Why didn't Enel get hit while sleeping in the forest like I mentioned above? I mean he was sleeping on the tree, so he must have been tangible, right? Because when sleeping you should be in a your normal state. But he didn't get hit anyway. Could it be a natural reflex? Like, can the fruit change the state of the body from being tangible to being intangible? But that would mean the fruit has its own will and can choose whichever state it want, right? Ok, if we say that the state of the body can somehow change naturally. Does it mean that Enel became intangible at that instance? If yes, then why didn't he wake up like someone who witnessed a change in his body state? I mean he should feel something like his body changing state, right?
! Why is Blackbeard's fruit different from other Logia again? Aokij can't be intangible, right? Or did he not train his fruit to be like other Logias?
! Another topic. Does seastone work like water? I mean let's look at Luffy for instance. In Arlong Park he couldn't move. But in Rain Dinner he was still able to talk, and we saw a lot of DF users talk and move while wearing Seastone.
We know (some of us at least) that when eating a fruit, say a Paramecia, you become the element of that fruit, right? But in Imple Down Mr.1 for example got hit and hurt. Was it because he was wearing Seastone? So that means Seastone isn't like water, because water can't stop, say Luffy, from being rubber, so it should be the same for Mr.1, right?
Another thing about Mr.1: As we have seen a Paramecia fruit differ from fruit to another, meaning Luffy or Buggy can't create their element (Buggy can't separate things) while Mr.3 can create his element. But can you really cut Buggy when he's wearing seastone? We know Mr.3 couldn't make candles while wearing them and we saw Mr.1 get hurt in ID, so shouldn't it be the same for Buggy? Or does the effect change from one fruit to another?
What about Enel. He became tangible when touched by seastone, right? Even though he's lightning. So what happened? Did the the seastone effect him like it affected Mr.1?
But Mr.1 is permanently a blademan, right? So how can he be affected like a Logia does?
! Last topic is: Why did Caribou get hit on the Sunny? Did he change his body's state to being tangible? Or does him being hit is similar to how Aokiji got hit by Luffy and Robin? Hmm.. but Caribou's fruit is swamp which is something totally different, can they be the same here? Another thing is, we saw him being hurt by the attack so he must've been like, I don't know how to explain this, what he was before eating the fruit, A normal body, right? Then again, Caribou said that he was going to trick them, so this also could be part of his plan. To show pain so they don't get suspicious, right? Because if it wasn't, that would also mean that Haki isn't needed if a Logia wanted to get hit, right? So was he really tangible there or not? Because if he was tangible, the pain should be real, right? And if he was intangible, the pain shouldn't really exist, right?
! One more thing. When Caribou was using his swamp on the mermaids something strange was happening. In one panel it seemed like the swamp had these things sticking out and pulling the mermaids to the bottom, right? But how can a swamp hold things like that?
! Hmm, maybe I'm missing some questions but whatever. I'll just ask about them later.
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Yeah but I wonder if Brook got touched by Sea Stone or BB - what would happen then O.o
Just to bring this back on topic - Brook's been established as far as I am concerned, but I still don't get what is meant by Blackbeard being touched by Sea Stone, and how it would make a difference to other fruit users - anyone care to explain or throw his opinion in?
It should just take away his control over the fruit, so I don't get what should be special about it…
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Just to bring this back on topic - Brook's been established as far as I am concerned, but I still don't get what is meant by Blackbeard being touched by Sea Stone, and how it would make a difference to other fruit users - anyone care to explain or throw his opinion in?
It should just take away his control over the fruit, so I don't get what should be special about it…
That quote meant Brooke touched by seastone OR by Blackbeard. Hence what would happen if just bones brooke was touched by BB who can drain your DF power away.
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That quote meant Brooke touched by seastone OR by Blackbeard. Hence what would happen if just bones brooke was touched by BB who can drain your DF power away.
Ah, thanks, I've been misreading that the whole time then. I guess it would make sense for Brook to die then, if Blackbeard used his Kurouzo(spelling?) attack. But that also means we probably won't see it then.
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Ah, thanks, I've been misreading that the whole time then. I guess it would make sense for Brook to die then, if Blackbeard used his Kurouzo(spelling?) attack. But that also means we probably won't see it then.
I guess it depends if brookes fruit brought him back to life or actually sustains his life. If he wasnt just a skeleton people wouldnt think he would die if touched by BB.
I can easily see it being a one time power that drew his soul back to him and brought him back to life. Not as a power that keeps him alive even though he doesnt have organs.
This kinda fits with the idea in OP that the soul or spirit is what determines a persons power.
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again what category is the Foxy fruit,noro noro?it cant be logia,it cant be paramisha,it is not zoo
