@cooldud_21:
On a different topic, am I the only one thinking that Mihawk should have owned Vista, and was disappointed when he didn't?
lol, as much as I love Mihawk, you should give some credit to Whitebeards best Swordsman, we all know Mihawk is the best in the world, but that doesnt mean he inmediatly own every other swordman. Put him against Vista and, even if in the end Mihawk should be the winer, Vista would give him one hell of a fight.
Hmmm, now that I think about it, Croc, Moria, and Jinbei don't even know Haki, huh? xD The only one that we're sure of is Boa, although I doubt Mihawk wouldn't know it; dunno about Doflamingo, though…
Hmmm, now that I think about it, Croc, Moria, and Jinbei don't even know Haki, huh?
How can we know that?
Jimbei fought Ace - a Logia - and caught a strike from Akainu - another logia. I think he can use haki, yes.
Croc and Moria may not wield haki, but they once went to the New World. Croc fought WB before. You can bet both of them have knowledge of Haki, even if they can't use it themselves (Croc maybe can… it's not like there was even a single time he needed to use it so far).
I don't think Moria can use haki for the simple reason that when fighting Luffy his attacks couldn't harm him (remember when Moria trapped Luffy in a shadow box and stepped over him?). Unless he was so enraged at that time that he couldn't think straight.
How can we know that?
Jimbei fought Ace - a Logia - and caught a strike from Akainu - another logia. I think he can use haki, yes.
Croc and Moria may not wield haki, but they once went to the New World. Croc fought WB before. You can bet both of them have knowledge of Haki, even if they can't use it themselves (Croc maybe can… it's not like there was even a single time he needed to use it so far).
I don't think Moria can use haki for the simple reason that when fighting Luffy his attacks couldn't harm him (remember when Moria trapped Luffy in a shadow box and stepped over him?). Unless he was so enraged at that time that he couldn't think straight.
Well, when Jinbei fought Ace water could have been involved to some extent. And he caught a logia's attack? So what? attacks aren't meant to be intangible… I think it's still an open case with Jin. Personally, i lean to him not having it.
Croc i'm sure can't use it at all because... well he sucks (sorry Croc fans). In combat, he had nothing for even Alabasta level Luffy. He did all his damage while Luffy was disengaged. The idea that someone that unimpressive possesses haki seems not to fit. Besides, he seems much more focused on his DF powers then anything.
@cooldud_21:
On a different topic, am I the only one thinking that Mihawk should have owned Vista, and was disappointed when he didn't?
I would have been more disappointed if a Yonkou's best swordsman was owned.
@Dan:
Croc i'm sure can't use it at all because… well he sucks (sorry Croc fans). In combat, he had nothing for even Alabasta level Luffy. He did all his damage while Luffy was disengaged. The idea that someone that unimpressive possesses haki seems not to fit. Besides, he seems much more focused on his DF powers then anything.
I'm pretty sure Croc is quite a bit stronger than an average Kuja warrior.
@Dan:
Well, when Jinbei fought Ace water could have been involved to some extent. And he caught a logia's attack? So what? attacks aren't meant to be intangible… I think it's still an open case with Jin. Personally, i lean to him not having it.
Croc i'm sure can't use it at all because... well he sucks (sorry Croc fans). In combat, he had nothing for even Alabasta level Luffy. He did all his damage while Luffy was disengaged. The idea that someone that unimpressive possesses haki seems not to fit. Besides, he seems much more focused on his DF powers then anything.
I think being able to block Magma and not having his hand melt off is a sign of some control of it.
@S.C.:
I think being able to block Magma and not having his hand melt off is a sign of some control of it.
Or some unknown effect of fishman physiology. Or the magma wasn't as hot as possible. Or Jimbei is Akainu's lover and he unintentionally held back.
We know the result, we aren't sure exactly how it happened.
Or some unknown effect of fishman physiology. Or the magma wasn't as hot as possible. Or Jimbei is Akainu's lover and he unintentionally held back.
We know the result, we aren't sure exactly how it happened.
Fish burn just the same as any animal, Akainu was trying to kill Luffy when Jinbei blocked it, so it should be be very hot, and I'm not even going to try and think of #3.
@S.C.:
Fish burn just the same as any animal, Akainu was trying to kill Luffy when Jinbei blocked it, so it should be be very hot, and I'm not even going to try and think of #3.
I'm saying its a fishman. We really don't know what's going on there. We know fishmen are stronger pound for pound than a human, so there's some degree of difference. How that difference produces increased strength we have no idea, but its not impossible that it could lead to increased…other things.
Do I think its likely? Not really, but it is possible, if only because it hasn't been disproved yet.
I'm saying its a fishman. We really don't know what's going on there. We know fishmen are stronger pound for pound than a human, so there's some degree of difference. How that difference produces increased strength we have no idea, but its not impossible that it could lead to increased…other things.
Do I think its likely? Not really, but it is possible, if only because it hasn't been disproved yet.
Well, take Whitebeard. Nearly 25 feet tall, pure muscle, and probably stronger then any fishman seen thus far, and he too got melted a few times. If anything for Jinbei, it's a load of protective Karate fat.
@S.C.:
Well, take Whitebeard. Nearly 25 feet tall, pure muscle, and probably stronger then any fishman seen thus far, and he too got melted a few times. If anything for Jinbei, it's a load of protective Karate fat.
WB would have been strong because he was big and fit. But a fishman of that size would have been stronger still. That's what I'm saying, that without knowing what it is that makes fishmen stronger than humans we don't know what fishmen acts are their physiology or DF/haki/other.
Crocodile may have Haki. Another thing that all Logias have in common is that we never specifically see any of them using Haki, but we know some do use Haki. Therefore, we can assume that others do as well. As a Logia theres little need to use Haki and we don't know if they can imbue haki into their elemental attcks. Oda is very clever (if he meant it to be this vague).
Smoker- used smoke to trap Luffy. He uses a seastone jutte so one would assume that he doesn't know Haki yet. Also he couldn't predict Luffy's slingshot attack or Boa's kick.
Crocodile- When he fought Luffy he didn't really need to use CoA offensively since his attcks were able to damage Luffy anyways. Although he didn't use CoA defensively to block Luffy's punches even after he knew they would affect him….
Ace- showed CoC during his brawl with bluejam. For all we know he could have imbued his attacks with Haki when he fought blackbeard. Again, logias are lax when it comes to people hitting and usually let them, so it's hard to tell if he had CoO.
Admirals- we know they have mastery of Haki since it is said that everyone VA and above use it. We never see them use it, although Akainu didn't know WB was charging at him from behind but there can be reasons for that.
Enel- We know he was proficient at mantra. If he was able to use his DF to extrapolate his mantra, it makes sense that he might be able to imbue it in his lightning charges. Although he didn't imbue his staff with haki, otherwise he would have been able to hurt Luffy, so perhaps he doesn't know how to equip CoA.
@Mr.:
Another thing that all Logias have in common is that we never specifically see any of them using Haki, but we know some do use Haki. Therefore, we can assume that others do as well. As a Logia theres little need to use Haki and we don't know if they can imbue haki into their elemental attcks. Oda is very clever (if he meant it to be this vague).
Smoker- used smoke to trap Luffy. He uses a seastone jutte so one would assume that he doesn't know Haki yet. Also he couldn't predict Luffy's slingshot attack or Boa's kick.
Crocodile- When he fought Luffy he didn't really need to use CoA offensively since his attcks were able to damage Luffy anyways. Although he didn't use CoA defensively to block Luffy's punches even after he knew they would affect him….
Ace- showed CoC during his brawl with bluejam. For all we know he could have imbued his attacks with Haki when he fought blackbeard. Again, logias are lax when it comes to people hitting and usually let them, so it's hard to tell if he had CoO.
Admirals- we know they have mastery of Haki since it is said that everyone VA and above use it. We never see them use it, although Akainu didn't know WB was charging at him from behind but there can be reasons for that.
Enel- We know he was proficient at mantra. If he was able to use his DF to extrapolate his mantra, it makes sense that he might be able to imbue it in his lightning charges. Although he didn't imbue his staff with mantra, otherwise he would have been able to hurt Luffy, so perhaps he doesn't know how to equip CoA.
I would assume that most logia don't learn haki unless they're around people who can teach them. Which is pretty much a given anyway, but to be more specific they aren't put in positions where they need to learn haki unless they're around alot of people who use haki, friends and enemies.
What we saw from Luffy is that haki tends to come out in times of stress and danger. Not always, since he intimidated Duval's buffalo thing, but the other times I recall bear this out. Because logia users aren't usually endangered in fights, aren't pushed to use everything they have, so their haki isn't grown or used whereas a non-logia in a similar position might unconsciously start to use their haki.
This all isn't to say a logia can't use haki, but that up to a certain point they never needed to, so might have a slower start when learning, or not have mastered all the uses of it, or not be able to use it as quickly as others, precisely because they don't need to use it.
I would assume that most logia don't learn haki unless they're around people who can teach them. Which is pretty much a given anyway, but to be more specific they aren't put in positions where they need to learn haki unless they're around alot of people who use haki, friends and enemies.
What we saw from Luffy is that haki tends to come out in times of stress and danger. Not always, since he intimidated Duval's buffalo thing, but the other times I recall bear this out. Because logia users aren't usually endangered in fights, aren't pushed to use everything they have, so their haki isn't grown or used whereas a non-logia in a similar position might unconsciously start to use their haki.
This all isn't to say a logia can't use haki, but that up to a certain point they never needed to, so might have a slower start when learning, or not have mastered all the uses of it, or not be able to use it as quickly as others, precisely because they don't need to use it.
I agree that logia's are slower to learn Haki because of their intagibility.
I have a theory that Luffy was able to pull out Haki in his final puches against all of the major villains. Those final berserker attacks against crocodile, moria, and Lucci seem to indicate Haki and it would explain how he was able to decimate them when they were out of his league.
@Dr.:
I'm pretty sure Croc is quite a bit stronger than an average Kuja warrior.
Oh hey. Never thought of it like that. Hmmm.
The thing with that is, i'm not sure the Kuja are really comparable to anyone else. They're an isolated tribe of warriors, and haki is a very large part of their culture. These are unique circumstances.
In the world at large, it seems only truly exceptional people ever manifest their haki, or even have knowledge of it's existence. This leads to a kind of all or nothing scenario. Meanwhile the unique circumstances on AL afford most or all of the Kuja to have rudimentary ability with haki. So considering that, i don't think that some of the less impressive Kuja warriors can use haki necessarily means anything.
@S.C.:
I think being able to block Magma and not having his hand melt off is a sign of some control of it.
Oh snap, I actually thought decide was referring to the scene in which Akainu punched through Jinbei. I remembered Jinbei intercepting that attack, not the one meant for Ace. I was blending the two scenes together. Now that i reread it, it definitely does seem more likely to be some kind of haki that allowed him to do that.
@Dan:
Oh snap, I actually thought decide was referring to the scene in which Akainu punched through Jinbei. I remembered Jinbei intercepting that attack, not the one meant for Ace. I was blending the two scenes together. Now that i reread it, it definitely does seem more likely to be some kind of haki that allowed him to do that.
Is it haki that lets him grab water like cloth? Not that I really expect anyone to know, but I am curious.
No, that's a Fishman Karate technique.
No, that's a Fishman Karate technique.
The fact that its a fishman karate technique precludes the possibility that it might use haki in some way?
Pretty much yeah.
Arlong was flicking water from his hand and impact from it was like a shotgun and for sure he doesn't use Ambition. Manipulating water in the different ways Jinbei has shown isn't something that needs Ambition to explain it.
Pretty much yeah.
Arlong was flicking water from his hand and impact from it was like a shotgun and for sure he doesn't use Ambition. Manipulating water in the different ways Jinbei has shown isn't something that needs Ambition to explain it.
I took that ability of Arlongs to just be webbed hands, inhuman strength, and lots and lots of experience with water.
Edit: I recall that the SH likened Arlong's trick with water droplets to a shotgun. But have we seen a shotgun in OP?
I took that ability of Arlongs to just be webbed hands, inhuman strength, and lots and lots of experience with water.
Edit: I recall that the SH likened Arlong's trick with water droplets to a shotgun. But have we seen a shotgun in OP?
A Pirate fodder or two probably used one somewhere.
@S.C.:
A Pirate fodder or two probably used one somewhere.
The guards in impel down I think. They blew pretty big holes in crocodile.
**All this talk about Donflamingo and Haki got me thinking. Didn't he say that Moria vanished and he could find him anymore? Doesn't that prove that he isn't able to use Observation Haki? Or, at least, not very well. I'd imagine all top-tiers would be proficient in Observation Haki.
Of course it's also possible he just let Moria go, but I find that unlikely.**
**All this talk about Donflamingo and Haki got me thinking. Didn't he say that Moria vanished and he could find him anymore? Doesn't that prove that he isn't able to use Observation Haki? Or, at least, not very well. I'd imagine all top-tiers would be proficient in Observation Haki.
Of course it's also possible he just let Moria go, but I find that unlikely.**
Depends on what "using it very well" means, exactly. Rayleigh could sense over an entire island, but we don't know what he specializes in or what his overall strength in haki is. We don't really have anything else to compare it to.
Donflamingo might be proficient in CoO, but Moria might have disappeared however he did to a far enough away place that the majority of haki users wouldn't be able to find him, possibly knowing that Don's specialty was something else.
Depends on what "using it very well" means, exactly. Rayleigh could sense over an entire island, but we don't know what he specializes in or what his overall strength in haki is. We don't really have anything else to compare it to.
Donflamingo might be proficient in CoO, but Moria might have disappeared however he did to a far enough away place that the majority of haki users wouldn't be able to find him, possibly knowing that Don's specialty was something else.
**Even if his specialty wasn't Observation Haki, I'd still imagine he'd be able to track Moria without any trouble assuming he is a top-tier. Unless Moria instantly traveled 50 miles or something.
Also, I'm guessing that Absolam was the one responsible for Moria "vanishing."**
Even if his specialty wasn't Observation Haki, I'd still imagine he'd be able to track Moria without any trouble assuming he is a top-tier. Unless Moria instantly traveled 50 miles or something.
Also, I'm guessing that Absolam was the one responsible for Moria "vanishing."
Or maybe he just didn't care. He even thought it would be fun to let the WB pirates get away. I think he wanted Moria to get away so he would have a vendetta against the WG.
@Mr.:
Or maybe he just didn't care. He even thought it would be fun to let the WB pirates get away.
I already covered that possibility good sir.
Like I said earlier, Hancock and Jinbei were probably chosen because they had a deal of sorts with the WG. Jinbei wanted to stay a Shichibukai because he felt that it would bring peace between humans and fishmen, and they probably chose Hancock because they could blackmail her with making havoc at Amazon Lily. Crocodile was said to have a secret by Ivankov which the WG could know about. So it's probably not so much about strength, but ensuring the Shichibukai would actually listen to the WG.
are you forgetting the single most useful contribution the shichis make?
that of balancing the equations of power between a YONKOU and THE WG:?
no stupid mid tier person can do that.
they are chosen on fighting ability.not merely some secrets or tradeoffs.
are you forgetting the single most useful contribution the shichis make?
that of balancing the equations of power between a YONKOU and THE WG:?no stupid mid tier person can do that.
they are chosen on fighting ability.not merely some secrets or tradeoffs.
Of course not, I'm not saying any random blackmailed asshole can become shichibukai, I'm just saying that this "deal" aspect is probably also very important and probably helps them decide - hence why Hancock is a shichibukai and Luffy was never offered it despite having a 300 million bounty. We still don't know what Shichibukai get out of being shichibukai, after all. They're not going to nominate a guy for shichibukai when they have no idea whether he or she will not listen at all.
It's kind of like if the WG had to choose between a 150 million bounty pirate and a 110 million bounty pirate who they can either blackmail, or give them a benefit they are very interested in, they'd rather choose the 110 million bounty guy.
It's what happened with Hancock and with Amazon Lily, it's what happened with Jinbei and Fishmen/Human relations, and it probably happened with Kuma considering Kuma hates the WG.
Of course not, I'm not saying any random blackmailed asshole can become shichibukai, I'm just saying that this "deal" aspect is probably also very important and probably helps them decide - hence why Hancock is a shichibukai and Luffy was never offered it despite having a 300 million bounty. We still don't know what Shichibukai get out of being shichibukai, after all.
It's kind of like if the WG had to choose between a 150 million bounty pirate and a 110 million bounty pirate who they can either blackmail, or give them a benefit they are very interested in, they'd rather choose the 110 million bounty guy.
Is it safe to assume that Mihawk is around admiral level?
He is the strongest swordsman, so I'd expect him to be one of the strongest characters in one piece.
@Rubber:
Is it safe to assume that Mihawk is around admiral level?
He is the strongest swordsman, so I'd expect him to be one of the strongest characters in one piece.
I think yes, he's at least admiral level if not higher, but not quite yonkou level. Assuming such a thing exists, that is.
- bounty not equals power levels.kuma showed that in shabondy.
2)luffy would not stand any chance of ever becoming a shichibukai at all.deal or no deal.
3)u seem to misunderstand the point. luffy never was at a power level before time skip where he could have been said to be shichi level. not even with croc in my opinion which was the only instance luffy stood one to one against a shichi.even if the marines decided to overlook his actions, his power simply didnt match up.
4)hancock and jimbei SHOWED tht particular level by their actions,satisfied the wg of their power and potential at that point . hence got chosen.
As for Hancock, what did she really do? She just rose quickly and made a mess out of things - something all of the SuperNovas have done and got higher bounties out of it. But do you think Kidd or Urouge or any other random 100mil+ pirate would listen to the government out of their own will? Probably not, else they wouldn't, you know, be pirates. However, the WG knew Hancock had the potential to be stronger, but also they could pressure her into doing her shichibukai duties even when she didn't want to because Hancock had something to lose, any random pirate doesn't have that.
- I know bounty =/= power level, but it does indicate achievements, which are more noticeable to the WG. Even though it's not always the case, bounty is still a good indicator of strength.
right.so first of all , not achievements. actions against the goivernment give you a bounty. or dangerous actions. not feats of strength at all.
@Reyairia:
- He defeated Crocodile by himself, how does that not put him at "shichibukai level" (which I agree with the other poster here, is BS)? Did he defeat Crocodile with smiles and happiness? No, he beat him in a fight.
okay consider this.you consider doflamingo to be higher than or lower than luffy?and jozu?croc went great against both and came out unscathed.go figure his power versus luffy.arabasta was plot. not power.
@Reyairia:
- What did Hancock and Jinbei really do?
The WG chose Jinbei most likely because Jinbei was the leader of the Sunny Pirates. … both he and the WG had something to gain out of Jinbei being a shichibukai.
being head of the tribe said to be ten times stronger than humans normally and have fishman karate is a joke or what?
As for Hancock, what did she really do? She just rose quickly and made a mess out of things - …. Hancock had something to lose, any random pirate doesn't have that.
how did she make a mess out of it? and since when did she start listening to the marines?are you forgetting the war summons?she went on a single mission,got the highest first bounty out of it ever in the series.and got offered the seat to nullify her pwoer.or are you forgetting sengoku calling her a strong asset? the man whose level people call luffy an ant?
right.so first of all , not achievements. actions against the goivernment give you a bounty. or dangerous actions. not feats of strength at all.
Going against the world government and doing dangerous actions and surviving is a pretty good indicator of strength.
okay consider this.you consider doflamingo to be higher than or lower than luffy?and jozu?croc went great against both and came out unscathed.go figure his power versus luffy.arabasta was plot. not power.
You do realize that you are essentially calling the entire Alabasta arc, and the entire Thriller Bark arc, plotholes? And, thus, Oda a bad writer? If Luffy beats Crocodile, that means Luffy is stronger than Crocodile because the plot made it so. Plot doesn't excuse fact - the plot is that Luffy was strong enough to defeat Crocodile. Oda would not make Luffy defeat Crocodile if it didn't make sense.
being head of the tribe said to be ten times stronger than humans normally and have fishman karate is a joke or what?
When was it ever said that Jinbei was the "head of the fishmen tribe"? He was Fisher Tiger's successor. We know that Fisher Tiger was highly respected, but nothing about being the Fishmen king or anything similar.
Also, even if fishmen are naturally 10 times stronger than a human usually is, being a fishman doesn't seem to add that much advantage once we get to higher level fighters - hence why we haven't seen that many of them being prominent captains. Hell, aside from Arlong (Jinbei doesn't count since he no longer has a crew) we haven't really seen any of them - they've only appeared as henchmen.
how did she make a mess out of it? and since when did she start listening to the marines?are you forgetting the war summons?she went on a single mission,got the highest first bounty out of it ever in the series.and got offered the seat to nullify her pwoer.or are you forgetting sengoku calling her a strong asset? the man whose level people call luffy an ant?
Isn't that how she got the WG's attention? By getting a relatively high bounty in absolutely no time?
You're forgetting that when Hancock was war summoned, the WG was very quick to mention what would happen to Amazon Lily if Hancock were to lose her Shichibukai status, that was technically blackmail. Hancock chose to not listen because she's an extremely cold and selfish character and doesn't care about the well being of the island as a whole. This was probably just not anticipated by the WG when they made her a shichibukai.
Going against the world government and doing dangerous actions and surviving is a pretty good indicator of strength.
saw the karibou(or watever) brothers?had a great bounty didnt they?nice seeing how they went around beating fodder marines and got bounties.not an indicator at all of true strength. dragon haas the highest bounty probably seeing hes the most wanted man. but shirohige was the most powerful. see any difference?
You do realize that you are essentially calling the entire Alabasta arc, ….. Oda would not make Luffy defeat Crocodile if it didn't make sense.
who said anything about thriller bark? i said luffy facing a shichi alone with no extra help. yes luffy did defeat croc at arabasta , but can you say the same about the situation at the war?or are you saying that with only an improved sables, croc went against jozu who had haki btw and dofla?
please explain that to me.
When was it ever said that Jinbei was the "head of the fishmen tribe"? He we haven't really seen any of them - they've only appeared as henchmen.
ah . i meant the head of pirates sorry. but still.
fisher tiger was the man who attacked mariejoe and rescued people, he wasnt merely respected, he was strong too. would have to be to do that.
his replacement would probably be near him at strength wouldnt he?
we dont see fishmen in crews due to the prejudice thing. its not due to them not being powerful.
Isn't that how she got the WG's attention? By getting a relatively high bounty in absolutely no time?
. This was probably just not anticipated by the WG when they made her a shichibukai.
yes that is how she got their attention. not by getting a bounty though. by her action in the mission whatever it was. that is strength . not the bounty.
saw the karibou(or watever) brothers?had a great bounty didnt they?nice seeing how they went around beating fodder marines and got bounties.not an indicator at all of true strength. dragon haas the highest bounty probably seeing hes the most wanted man. but shirohige was the most powerful. see any difference?
I know full well the difference, and I know that bounty isn't always an indicator of strength. However, it can be, and it sure does intimidate people, else Demaro wouldn't keep mentioning "his" 400 million bounty. Remember that shichibukai are around to intimidate, after all.
As for Dragon, we don't know anything about him, and he sure isn't someone who flashily shows off his power. For all we know he could rival Rayleigh in strength.
who said anything about thriller bark?
He defeated Moria at Thriller Bark, remember? Someone who is "top tier" according to you.
i said luffy facing a shichi alone with no extra help. yes luffy did defeat croc at arabasta , but can you say the same about the situation at the war?or are you saying that with only an improved sables, croc went against jozu who had haki btw and dofla?
please explain that to me.
Please explain to me how Luffy was able to defeat Crocodile without pinning it on plotholes.
Also going back to the "ant" comment, remember that Nyon doesn't know that Luffy defeated Moria and/or Crocodile. Sengoku probably thought he had gotten lucky or something.
fisher tiger was the man who attacked mariejoe and rescued people, he wasnt merely respected, he was strong too. would have to be to do that.
And Luffy was the only person who had the guts to break into Impel Down and lead a breakout. Both are very similar achievements in terms of difficulty, your point?
You can't just simply assume Fisher Tiger was the strongest fishman while trying to argue Luffy isn't very strong, when they both did very similar things.
his replacement would probably be near him at strength wouldnt he?
Not necessarily.
we dont see fishmen in crews due to the prejudice thing. its not due to them not being powerful.
We've seen plenty of fishmen in crews, we just haven't seen them that much as captains. The Macro pirates don't count because they're really weak.
yes that is how she got their attention. not by getting a bounty though. by her action in the mission whatever it was. that is strength . not the bounty.
I'm only using the bounty as a mark of strength. Whatever her strength is, I'm only arguing that the WG made her their choice because of primarily because of strength, but that the fact that they theoretically could blackmail her into submission also played a role in electing her.
I know full well the difference, and I know that bounty isn't always an indicator of strength. However, it can be…,
cant really say much after that.you just going in circles.
He defeated Moria at Thriller Bark, remember? Someone who is "top tier" according to you.
the whole crew did,not luffy alone.
Please explain to me how Luffy was able to defeat Crocodile without pinning it on plotholes.
plotholes?what plotholes?it was simply a plot thing which oda did.water is croc's weakness. consider the situation. croc didnt use sables there,he didnt use any of his fruit attacks.which are his strongest.he simply underestimated luffy and overestimated his own attack in going for the poison kill.that is all. things could have been different if it had been him using fruit attacks there.doesnt make luffy stronger.
Also going back to the "ant" comment, remember that Nyon doesn't know that Luffy defeated Moria and/or Crocodile. Sengoku probably thought he had gotten lucky or something.
nyon?i am not saying anything about nyon,she isnt even sengoku level.i was talking about other people(wb,akainu,kizaru etc) who all commented on him being a small person in the battle. it was a figurative word not a quote.
And Luffy was the only person who had the guts to break into Impel Down and lead a breakout. Both are very similar achievements in terms of difficulty, your point?You can't just simply assume Fisher Tiger was the strongest fishman while trying to argue Luffy isn't very strong, when they both did very similar things.
yes they are,but luffy did it with the help of people(ivankov,bb on the opposite side,fisher tiger supposedly did it alone) iirc he climbed the red line and attacked them alone. not with his crew.
Not necessarily.
lets see
zoro is deputy of luffy,admirals for fleet admiral,marco for wb, hell almost all deputies/first mates i can think of are very near their respective captain/boss levels.
I'm only using the bounty as a mark of strength. Whatever her strength is, I'm only arguing that the WG made her their choice because of primarily because of strength, but that the fact that they theoretically could blackmail her into submission also played a role in electing her.
you have been missing the point really.
bounty for power measurement does not stand at all.bb did not even have a bounty iirc when he started off for the shichi seat.see his level.
the shichibukai cant really be controlled. the wg knows this. was evident back at sengoku meeting the shichibukai.
cant really say much after that.you just going in circles.
And you are too by explaining your logical errors away as Oda's plotholes and mistakes.
the whole crew did,not luffy alone.
The whole crew only slightly weakened Orz.
plotholes?what plotholes?it was simply a plot thing which oda did.
Making Crocodile an extremely powerful character, only to get defeated by a "weak" character like Luffy (assuming what you say is true) IS a plot hole because it's an inconsistency.
A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot.
I don't think you can blame the Alaska sized hole in your argument on Oda's writing skills. You're essentially saying that Oda is wrong and you're right. I refuse to believe that Alabasta was just one big plothole.
water is croc's weakness. consider the situation. croc didnt use sables there,he didnt use any of his fruit attacks.which are his strongest.he simply underestimated luffy and overestimated his own attack in going for the poison kill.that is all. things could have been different if it had been him using fruit attacks there.doesnt make luffy stronger.
Crocodile couldn't use his DF powers because Luffy had water. And if Crocodile is so ridiculously weak to the planet's most numerous substance than it's pretty detrimental to arguing that he's strong.
nyon?i am not saying anything about nyon,she isnt even sengoku level.i was talking about other people(wb,akainu,kizaru etc) who all commented on him being a small person in the battle. it was a figurative word not a quote.
Nyon is the one who made the ant comment that you were referring to.
And yeah, Luffy is a small person in battle when you compare him to Whitebeard and his commanders, considering that Ace was at a tie with Jinbei all of them are probably equals to the shichibukai.
Luffy wasn't even thinking about fighting. His plan was to grab Ace as quick as he could and get out as fast as possible.
yes they are,but luffy did it with the help of people(ivankov,bb on the opposite side,fisher tiger supposedly did it alone) iirc he climbed the red line and attacked them alone. not with his crew.
How the hell did you get that Fisher Tiger did it alone?
For starters, Luffy climbed a mountain himself, even though it wasn't nearly as high as the grand line.
Secondly, Fisher Tiger freed fishmen slaves that joined his crew. It makes sense that the fishmen he saved probably helped him do the job the same way prisoners Luffy saved helped him out.
lets see
zoro is deputy of luffy,admirals for fleet admiral,marco for wb, hell almost all deputies/first mates i can think of are very near their respective captain/boss levels.
There's nothing that indicates that if Luffy were to die, Zoro would succeed him. Same with Marco and Whitebeard - especially when it was stated Ace would. Besides, I'm not saying that the first mate isn't similar in strength to his captain, I'm saying the successor isn't necessarily so. There's a big difference between a successor and a first mate. You can choose your first mate to succeed you, or you can choose your son who might not be as strong. It depends on who the captain decides to choose.
Arlong and Jinbei were supposed to be on equal grounds, but Fisher Tiger chose Jinbei probably based on the fact that Jinbei wasn't a maniacal dick like Arlong was.
you have been missing the point really.
bounty for power measurement does not stand at all.
NO U.
I can't argue with you anymore, we'll just have to disagree. Regardless of whether it does or not, pirates in One Piece have shown to think that way.
bb did not even have a bounty iirc when he started off for the shichi seat.see his level.
That's because Blackbeard was nothing but a lowly henchmen who kept low until he ate an overpowered fruit. There's nothing to show that Blackbeard was strong at all before he ate it.
the shichibukai cant really be controlled. the wg knows this. was evident back at sengoku meeting the shichibukai.
It doesn't stop them from trying to.
And you are too by explaining your logical errors away as Oda's plotholes and mistakes.
treat one point as one. dont include other points in a topic to make it logical.
The whole crew only slightly weakened Orz.
right. and luffy was also just fighting as himself.true.
Making Crocodile an extremely powerful character, only to get defeated by a "weak" character like Luffy (assuming what you say is true) IS a plot hole because it's an inconsistency.
I don't think you can blame the Alaska sized hole in your argument on Oda's writing skills. You're essentially saying that Oda is wrong and you're right. I refuse to believe that Alabasta was just one big plothole.
what hole man?it was simple.croc didnt use his fruit attacks.the one where he dehydrates the person, the one where he blows sand.water prevents him fron turning into sand.not from using those attacks as shown in mizu luffy chapters.
Crocodile couldn't use his DF powers because Luffy had water. And if Crocodile is so ridiculously weak to the planet's most numerous substance than it's pretty detrimental to arguing that he's strong.
all df users wud be weak then near the vast levels of oceans going by your argument coz sea water does tend to weaken them really.
and for croc weakness, see the above point.
Nyon is the one who made the ant comment that you were referring to.
did you even read what i wrote?it was a figurative word,not a quote from nyon.
@Reyairia:
How the hell did you get that Fisher Tiger did it alone?
For starters, Luffy climbed a mountain himself, even though it wasn't nearly as high as the grand line.
Secondly, Fisher Tiger freed fishmen slaves that joined his crew. It makes sense that the fishmen he saved probably helped him do the job the same way prisoners Luffy saved helped him out.
only fisher tiger ever got the cred for that.unlike impel down where several perpetrators were identified and announced publicly.
@Reyairia:
There's nothing that indicates that if Luffy were to die, Zoro would succeed him. Same with Marco and Whitebeard - especially when it was stated Ace would. Be. It depends on who the captain decides to choose.
ace was a potential pirate king.of course he would succeed.that is plot development.but generally its the first mate who succeeds the captain.
, consider other cases?almost every case has the first mate/direct deputy as the successor of the captain.successor as in who has powers to order people around in captain's absence.
@Reyairia:
Arlong and Jinbei were supposed to be on equal grounds, but Fisher Tiger chose Jinbei probably based on the fact that Jinbei wasn't a maniacal dick like Arlong was.
equal grounds?arlong was his subordinate.
NO U.
I can't argue with you anymore, we'll just have to disagree…...
coz the higher bounty people are dangerous yes.someone who doesnt even fear acting against the wg would be feared right?
That's because Blackbeard was nothing but a lowly henchmen who kept low until he ate an overpowered fruit. There's nothing to show that Blackbeard was strong at all before he ate it.
shanks thought otherwise.
It doesn't stop them from trying to.
agreed on this .
It isnt the only reason, but it is kinda true that Croc and Moria lost to Luffy because underestimation, because he was a rookie.
In crocodile´s case, there were 3 figts. In the first one he won efortlesly. Im their second fight Luffy managed to hit him, but Luffy was done for soon again. The third fight was in the tomb, with Luffy near dead bleeding a lot. Tired of him but impresed because of his tenacity, Croc decided to finish Luffy of with letal poison. They start melee fighting until Luffy manages a good hit on Croc with Croc hurting Luffy the hook at the same time. If you watch the melee fight until then, you will see that he did really finem only beeing scratched one time in the forehead!! After that Luffy fell for the poison and Croc started talking about him beeing just a rookie who knows nothing,etc. This is where he most underestimated him, he should have killed him right there as he would do if Whitebeard was in Luffys position. Because of course, for his surprise, Luffy was strong enough to endure a little bit the poison and give it all with his last attacks. When Croc started to react, it was too late for him. And even with this, Luffy was condemned because of the poison.
It is even clearer with Moria. He wasnt fighting at all in Thriller Bark, just helping Oars a little with his Shadow. He only fought a little against Robin ans Sanji, and had an easy time. Then, Nightmare Luffy, a freaking beast, appears and leave him with red HP (In RPG terms xDD). He tried with the Assgard, but Luffys titanic efforts and the mastil made him lose. This time again, Luffy ended up unconscious, this time he even lost conciusness before Moria.
The nice thing is that, with this, it wont feel strange if we see them owning in the New World, since we know they are strong ass hell even if Luffy managed to defeat them under the right circumstances, after all Croc was the enemy who gave him the most problems and Moria is the strongest they beat on the first half, even with the help of Nightmare Mode. And just clarify, i am not discrediting Luffy: He is strong as hell, and if he was able to win was not only because of the circumstances, His own strength has a lot to do. Other pirates, given the same circumstances, would have ended dead.
And the best thing of all is taht now, after the timeskip, with Luffy beeing a recognized pirate we should stop beeing this kind of underestimation towards him.
Jimbei's arm was completely on fire. He is holding his inflamed arm in the very next panel. My votes with his arm not melting because of his physiology; WB's chest also didn't melt from a volcanic palm blast. Only the Hound of Hades did that kind of damage. Jimbei can survive having a huge portion of his side gouged out by a magma fist in a series where being a cook is an excuse for handling intense friction based heat. I can buy Fishmen having a water pokemon like resistance to heat. I don't see why a guy with water powers needs Haki to fight Ace or why Oda would make sure we understood Vista was a Haki user by having him attack Akainu, making the Admiral evade, but then have Jimbei's attack failing completely.
I agree
You still can't say to me that the whole Tsuru Scene makes him mid-tier instead of high-tier, though
Never apart of my original argument. Just that people who are high tier acknowledged as such. There is no question in the minds of the readers or OP characters themselves. Don was never shown to be such a threat that just the idea of him getting involved in a fight could change the tide of battle like Garp or Sengoku. All the scene with Tsuru shows is that she isn't that out of his league.
@Semil
I disagree. I think the division commanders might be at shichibukai level, but while the captains that were affiliated with WB were said to have "made a name for themselves in the New World", they weren't treated in the same sort of high-level fashion as the commanders. Marco fought Kizaru, Joz fought Aokiji, Vista fought Mihawk. I don't think the supporting captains are at that level. Maybe they are by this point, but we don't and can't know that for sure.
Shichibukai wouldn't exactly be a world power if WB could pick 6 commanders at random and have a team as fearsome as the Warlords excluding Mihawk. 6-16 are likely far weaker than Ace or Jimbei. They shouldn't be stronger than Vice Admirals, Crocodile, or Inazuma who is basically the equivalent of a DC in the Revolutionaries.
Squado and all the Captains depicted here were featured way more often and more prominently than WB's DC. The DC's only real screen time was defending WB's back, minor scuffles with warlords(where one was literally toyed with and the other didn't seem to do much more than survive) and backing up Luffy against Kizaru. We weren't even told most of the DC's names so if it weren't for the data book we'd probably forget most of them. Hell the only purpose to the Kizaru scene seemed to only confirm who the DCs were not show how badass they are.
That's because Blackbeard was nothing but a lowly henchmen who kept low until he ate an overpowered fruit. There's nothing to show that Blackbeard was strong at all before he ate it.
Overpowered? It draws every attack to him and makes it almost twice as much and can't attack with it like other Logias. If it wasn't for the power cancelation, that thing would be completly useless.
Blackbeard and Doflamingo are beast, I don't see Blackbeard as overpowered with the Yami yami no mi alone, but being able to create blackholes,regenerate, and tank attacks that would kill him normaly is a lot, like when Ace threw his flame spears into his heart and lung and he was fine, or when Whitebeard sent an earthquake into his head, or when Sengoku blasted him.
i would rank them like this
top tier- mihawk
blackbeard
Doflamingo
mid tier-kuma
jimbei
boa hancock
low tier-moria
crocodile
Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane society.
i would rank them like this
top tier- mihawk
blackbeard
Doflamingomid tier-kuma
jimbei
boa hancocklow tier-moria
crocodile
What. 16charctersofwhat.
Crocodile will be one of the strongest after the timeskip.
Mihawk is the strongest.
Doflamingo, Kuma and Hancock are somewhat enigmatic at this point as to how strong they truly are. It could range from almost as strong as the best division commanders of Whitebeard to around as powerful as Ivankov or Jimbei, to generalize their power. But I do think they're the next three best. Blackbeard goes around this level as well at the time he was a Shichibukai.
Jimbei should be cleanly above Moria going by how they were depicted in the war together, but I think he falls below the above 4 on land.
Crocodile is unfortunately down at the bottom due to his inadequate close combat abilities, however he can be a hard one to place properly still due to him being invincible to a non-Haki, non-water using person. In certain situations he can be at one of the higher levels. And Moria, obviously, needs to go here since he was stated to be far too weak to be a Shichibukai.
Crocodile knows how to proficiently work his DF like all the other shichibukai. He's not be the best physical combatant, but he's pretty knowledgeable and cunning. Luffy just cut a big corner when he used water to get around that intangibility. His first fight with croco wasn't much different from his fight with Kuma or mihawk.
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