Untitled

Ivotas

From what we have seen they donÂ´t know much more then that. All that we know is that Spandam approached them with the idea to get the hands on the blueprints of Pluton. It wasnÂ´t the other way around.
What Spandam really thinks seems to be a mystery to them and IÂ´m quite convinced that he never said things like "Enough power to destroy the entire world, all mine BUWAHAHAHAHA!!!" or "By my book the old man in the WG are all weak!" in their presence. If he would heÂ´d be probably got arrested himself.

wintergt

Ehm.. who is Iceburg gonna expose the WG's dealings to? They are the sole instance that rules the world.. there is nothing else. If they decide - just out of spite - to buster call and destroy Water 7 in its entirety, who is gonna stop them? It's like America, who can invade Iraq and the rest of the world can't do anything about it.. only the WG is 10x more powerful than that, there isn't even a rival government.

But regardless, they can also just deny it. I mean, what is Iceburg gonna do about it? Remember how zipper-mouth also blew the CP9 plans to the entire town on their assassination mission.. didn't seem to have any consequences. And CP9 will be defeated, but they won't be killed - we know Oda. And they know Paulie, Galley-La, Franky, and the whole FF.

Water 7 is really the first place the WG is gonna send an investigation team to after Enies Lobby gets wrecked.. and I don't mean to talk to Iceburg, but to turn the whole place upside down, looking for clues as to where the Straw-hats might have gone and stuff like that.

And no doubt they have spies on Water 7 at this very moment.. I never really saw you reply to that.. so if the whole team just comes home.. sorry I just really don't see how they could keep this a secret. It's…. so obvious.

Ivotas

@jackvance:

Ehm.. who is Iceburg gonna expose the WG's dealings to? They are the sole instance that rules the world.. there is nothing else. If they decide - just out of spite - to buster call and destroy Water 7 in its entirety, who is gonna stop them? It's like America, who can invade Iraq and the rest of the world can't do anything about it.. only the WG is 10x more powerful than that, there isn't even a rival government.

Oh I think youÂ´re jumping to conclusions here. We donÂ´t know who or what the Demons of Ohara were so it is a bit far fetched to compare them to Iceburg. What if they were all just archeologists or their own surveign tribe that didnÂ´t have contact with other islands? You canÂ´t just throw them in the same cup as Iceburg who is the mayor of the WGÂ´s # 1 shipbuilding island. It is very like to assume that the Buster Call ships were even built in Water 7, so the city is to valuable to easily be destroyed. And even if they would burn W7 down, Iceburg isnÂ´t a nobody. As the mayor of the town he could spread the word about the truth before the fleet arrives. What is the WG gonna do, burn down all the islands and countries that know the truth? That would raise even more questions. You see that even in real life Bush canÂ´t easily invade all the countries in the near east.

But regardless, they can also just deny it. I mean, what is Iceburg gonna do about it? Remember how zipper-mouth also blew the CP9 plans to the entire town on their assassination mission.. didn't seem to have any consequences. And CP9 will be defeated, but they won't be killed - we know Oda. And they know Paulie, Galley-La, Franky, and the whole FF.

I donÂ´t get what youÂ´re trying to say with when Fukuro spilled the beans about their plot. Everybody who knew the truth was killed thatÂ´s why Spandam was mad that much more then just 3 guys were eliminated. And as I said the strongest CP9 guys arleady were at Water 7 and they didnÂ´t finish Iceburg of. Who else should they send, the Buster Call fleet? That is like they would be cutting of their own leg if they would destroy who builds ships for them.
And as far as CP9 knowing Paulie etc is concerned. They are all secret agents. You know what happens once they fall. The government denies any relation to them and they become either outcasts or prisoners of the enemies or they get killed.

Water 7 is really the first place the WG is gonna send an investigation team to after Enies Lobby gets wrecked.. and I don't mean to talk to Iceburg, but to turn the whole place upside down, looking for clues as to where the Straw-hats might have gone and stuff like that.

Oda didnÂ´t do that at Alabasta so I donÂ´t see why he should be doing it now.

And no doubt they have spies on Water 7 at this very moment.. I never really saw you reply to that.. so if the whole team just comes home.. sorry I just really don't see how they could keep this a secret. It's…. so obvious.

I never saw you reply to me statement either. You know where I said that it is biased to think that the WG has such good recources that they can easily track down the responsibles but where they are so retarded that in a 5 year mission the CP9 director never considers that Franky the underworld boss of Water 7 is linked to the Franky who attacked him.
And you didnÂ´t ever reply to my question, what spies and events at Jaya that the WG is aware or???

And just in all fairness IÂ´ll reply to your statement. You think that there are spies I think not. Period. Give a real argument that can convince me that there spies actually.

wintergt

@Ivotas:

Oh I think youÂ´re jumping to conclusions here. We donÂ´t know who or what the Demons of Ohara were so it is a bit far fetched to compare them to Iceburg. What if they were all just archeologists or their own surveign tribe that didnÂ´t have contact with other islands? You canÂ´t just throw them in the same cup as Iceburg who is the mayor of the WGÂ´s # 1 shipbuilding island.

Eh did I do this? I didn't even mention Ohara afaik..

Who else should they send, the Buster Call fleet? That is like they would be cutting of their own leg if they would destroy who builds ships for them.

You're forgetting that CP9 already tried to kill Iceburg, so obviously they don't care that much. And now that they don't have to be secretive anymore, they can send anyone really.. Ao Kiji, Sengoku, a Shichibukai, whatever..

And as far as CP9 knowing Paulie etc is concerned. They are all secret agents. You know what happens once they fall. The government denies any relation to them and they become either outcasts or prisoners of the enemies or they get killed.

That's what typically happens if they get captured by the enemy.. not too sure if they will be disbanded just because they get their asses kicked. Might be though.. but surely they'll be questioned about the responsibles, no?

Oda didnÂ´t do that at Alabasta so I donÂ´t see why he should be doing it now.

Well that wasn't an attack on the WG itself.. with Enies Lobby they are hurt in the core of their being. It's an unprecedented insult.

I never saw you reply to me statement either. You know where I said that it is biased to think that the WG has such good recources that they can easily track down the responsibles

Track them down?… they just go home, there's not much tracking to do lol.. just go to the most obvious place imaginable :laugh:

but where they are so retarded that in a 5 year mission the CP9 director never considers that Franky the underworld boss of Water 7 is linked to the Franky who attacked him.

I don't really see what that has to do with anything.. maybe it was stupid (although Franky did do a total make-over so it wasn't that obvious) but that hardly means that everyone who works for the WG is totally retarded and can't even put 2 and 2 together =P

And you didnÂ´t ever reply to my question, what spies and events at Jaya that the WG is aware or???

Sorry I forgot the details and don't have the manga =(, but the gourousei discussed something that happened on Jaya. Someone made a thread a while back to ask how they knew this, and it was agreed there that they must've had spies on Jaya.

And just in all fairness IÂ´ll reply to your statement. You think that there are spies I think not. Period. Give a real argument that can convince me that there spies actually.

Well how do you think they know things like that Luffy defeated Arlong, Don Krieg, Buggy, etc? Or that Zoro defeated mr.1 and 100 bounty hunters at Whiskey Peak? Obviously they have to have spies all around..

Ivotas

Did you actually read any of my latest statements because they actually contain answers for what you just said. Oh well nevermind, hereÂ´s the short form as response.

@jackvance:

Eh did I do this? I didn't even mention Ohara afaik..

You didnÂ´t mention Ohara but you spoke about the Buster Call as if you knew as if in which situations the WG will use it and in which not. And right now, Spandam has the authoroty to use the Buster Call but not against Iceburg but against the Strawhats. ThatÂ´s a huge difference.

You're forgetting that CP9 already tried to kill Iceburg, so obviously they don't care that much. And now that they don't have to be secretive anymore, they can send anyone really.. Ao Kiji, Sengoku, a Shichibukai, whatever..

ThatÂ´s the point they did it and failed. Now he has knowledge with which he can make the WG his bitch. You know that classic "IÂ´ve sent to blah blah blah and when anything happens to me then it will be sent to the newspapers" thing from countless criminal movies donÂ´t you. Nobody would believe him if he would say that before this arc. But since he has been assasinated, many people would now listen to him if he would say that in the worldwide newspapers. So he owns them.

That's what typically happens if they get captured by the enemy.. not too sure if they will be disbanded just because they get their asses kicked. Might be though.. but surely they'll be questioned about the responsibles, no?

And what will they say? TheyÂ´ll say that it was the Strawhats who dealt with them because Galley-La and FF stayed behind to fight the small fry. And when the small fry gets asked who did it then theyÂ´ll say it was the Strawhats.

Well that wasn't an attack on the WG itself.. with Enies Lobby they are hurt in the core of their being. It's an unprecedented insult.

Already elaborated this but IÂ´ll say it again. It was the WG that did the first move by assasinating Iceburg and burning Galley-La not the Strawhats who did their first move. And I already said my part about Iceburg being in an ideal poker position.
Plus we still donÂ´t know how much of that is Spandams doing and how much is the GorouseiÂ´s will. So basically if those radical methods already are Spandams doing then they have an even bigger problem with apologizing to Iceburg and W7 because they had no what was going on. The only one who will get persued are the strawhats because that canÂ´t be tolerated but they wonÂ´t be pissing of Iceburg any longer because they might feel guilty.

Track them down?… they just go home, there's not much tracking to do lol.. just go to the most obvious place imaginable :laugh:

You just donÂ´t get what IÂ´m trying to say. When everybody is defeated there will be no one left standing at Enies Lobby. So basically all that they remember is that the Strawhats left Enies Lobby probably in direction of Water 7. And until new marines or WG officials are sent to Water 7 the Strawhats will be gone, so they better chase after them instead of wasting time at the city that has suffered so much already.

I don't really see what that has to do with anything.. maybe it was stupid (although Franky did do a total make-over so it wasn't that obvious) but that hardly means that everyone who works for the WG is totally retarded and can't even put 2 and 2 together =P

It has everything to do with it. Because that is a bigger glitch then the situation that we are discussing. But strangely that doesnÂ´t bother you, but that what I explain seems to be problematic for you while is more plausible then that Franky wasnÂ´t noticed for 4 years.

Sorry I forgot the details and don't have the manga =(, but the gourousei discussed something that happened on Jaya. Someone made a thread a while back to ask how they knew this, and it was agreed there that they must've had spies on Jaya.

IÂ´m sorry but I really donÂ´t know what that could be. The only thing that could be put into relation with Jaya and the Gorousei is that we first saw them in that arc. But what they said back then had absolutely nothing to do with the the island Jaya itself.

Well how do you think they know things like that Luffy defeated Arlong, Don Krieg, Buggy, etc? Or that Zoro defeated mr.1 and 100 bounty hunters at Whiskey Peak? Obviously they have to have spies all around..

How? The people probably told them about it. How come they donÂ´t know that Luffy defeated Kuro, because it was kept a secret. If they would have had spies then they would know of that fight and they would know that Kuro is still alive. DidnÂ´t happen.
For Krieg there was the personel of Baratie, for Buggy there was Boodle and for Arlong we even saw the sneaky rat who witnessed everything. Why do does it always have to be spies?

Yoska

@jackvance:

Track them down?… they just go home, there's not much tracking to do lol.. just go to the most obvious place imaginable :laugh:

Buy the whole point is that they don't understand to track them down. They think all the attackers are Straw Hats - they will go hunt them, not Galley-la or the Family.

If GW would be so powerful that they could do anything, they wouldn't had gone through all the trouble but baldly rip off Iceburg. And GW isn't all evil at all, they have a lot of righteous folks who would prohibit such an act.

wolfwood

@Yoska:

Buy the whole point is that they don't understand to track them down. They think all the attackers are Straw Hats - they will go hunt them, not Galley-la or the Family.

im sorry but i just can buy something that stupid if they take his word for it and ignore that those guys that are obviously from galley-la and later on dont even bother to investivage W7 then i would lose all respect for them cause they have proven that they are utterly and completly incompetent(which they have proven that they arent) so i just wont buy into that.

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

im sorry but i just can buy something that stupid if they take his word for it and ignore that those guys that are obviously from galley-la and later on dont even bother to investivage W7 then i would lose all respect for them cause they have proven that they are utterly and completly incompetent(which they have proven that they arent) so i just wont buy into that.

What is so stupid. First Luffy attacks Enies Lobby and say that he hasnÂ´t time but others will come. Then there come the other and when they get asked if they are Strawhat Pirates they say yes. Why should anyone question his words. ItÂ´s not like the Enies Lobby guys have the impression that Luffy and the rest came each on his own. They both said with their words to belong to each other. It is actually stupid to doubt that what was said.

And yes the WG have proven to be incompentent as IÂ´ve constantly repeated in the Alabasta example. But if you want I`ll list it this time how stupid they are in chronologic order:

1. TashigiÂ´s crew seeÂ´s all Strawhats sleeping on the streets so they know who they are.
2. In the next chapter the marines donÂ´t recognize Usopp and Sanji while they enter the royal palace. HasnÂ´t the word spread what they look like?
3. Aokiji has seen all of the 7 Strawhats at Longring Longland.

And then finally when Sanji meets CP9 nobody recongizes him. They assume that he is one of the Strawhats but the donÂ´t know it. I can take it if a random marine guy doesnÂ´t know what they look like but if a secret agent party as CP9 doesnÂ´t recognize Sanji then how much competence shall I expect from random government guys.
I mean Spandam has the authoroty to use a Buster Call against the Strawhats so he actually should know who this guys are and with that all of CP9 should know it. But they didnÂ´t. And if the WGÂ´s best secret agency whoÂ´s purpose is to aquire information isnÂ´t competent enough to see that, what do we have to expect from the inferior dudes?

Not to mention that the same agency has a retard in the team who runs around and tells all the secrets or that the director never even thought about that the underworld boss Franky could be connected to the Franky who attacked him. And if you try to tell me that he was Cutty Flam back then, then IÂ´ll say that back then Tom, Cocoro and Iceburg already called him Franky. If Spandam as CP5 member wasnÂ´t able to find that out then he is even much more a retard and proves how incompetent the WGÂ´s best guys are.

Soupster

I do not think that Iceburg has a sort of blackmailing spill the beans power which Ivotas describes. I believe that the World Government needs Water 7 and they can not have it if they openly move against Iceburg. They sent CP9 in to frame the Strawhats so that the island would not rallly against the WG.

wolfwood

….but your really not getting it CP9 have only been briefed on their mission and people that they should know about that does not include the SH or franky,

why would they do any research about the SH when all they were used for was a diversion?
they dont know everything but they are well informed about their current mission.

and to ansewer a statment you made before why would they even bother noticing the small simalarties between Franky and a kid thats to their knowledge has been dead for 8 years ?

Ivotas

This post is deleted!

Ivotas

@Soupster:

I do not think that Iceburg has a sort of blackmailing spill the beans power which Ivotas describes. I believe that the World Government needs Water 7 and they can not have it if they openly move against Iceburg. They sent CP9 in to frame the Strawhats so that the island would not rallly against the WG.

Oh completely forgot about that. Thanks Soupster. Yep for 5 years CP9 couldnÂ´t make an radical move against Iceburg, but once theyÂ´ve saw the Strawhats theyÂ´ve saw their chance. Shows how much the WG is concerned to to be blackmailed openly.

@wolfwood:

….but your really not getting it CP9 have only been briefed on their mission and people that they should know about that does not include the SH or franky,

Not sure what youÂ´re trying to say here

why would they do any research about the SH when all they were used for was a diversion?
they dont know everything but they are well informed about their current mission.

Huh? Because Spandam has the authoroty to use the Buster Call against the Strawhats, not against Iceburg. And if he has the authority to use such a devastating power he actually should need to be well informed on who the enemies are. Just said that in my last post.

and to ansewer a statment you made before why would they even bother noticing the small simalarties between Franky and a kid thats to their knowledge has been dead for 8 years ?

Here we go again. I just elaborated that a couple of pages ago as direct response to you and you didnÂ´t reply and ask the question again. Well IÂ´ll explain it again.

CP9 is stationed at Water 7 for 5 friggin years. In that time there must have been lots of correcspondence with the director. And in this correspondences they probably told him much information about the city since aquiring information is their purpose after all. In 5 years of aquiring information one of the four sure must have sent a report that the underworld boss of Water 7 is called Franky. I mean this is a secret organization of the WG, donÂ´t tell me they donÂ´t care for such an information.
And the interesting part is that Spandam as director of CP9 actually should be the one who should read the reports of his team. And if they ever mentioned Franky then actually for him the bells should be ringing. Not for Jabura, not for Kumadori, not for anyone else but Spandam should definitely think be intrigued by the terms "Franky" and "Underworld Boss". Im sorry but Im not buying that they never reported that to their director. ItÂ´s much more proof of incompetence that if an inferior WG guy believes that the guy who attacks them labels himself as Strawhat.

Back when CP9 framed the Strawhats for attacking Iceburg everybody believed it and nobody here disagreed with it. But if Zanbai says that heÂ´s a Strawhat and everybody would believe it, it out of a sudden becomes stupid and unlogic. WhereÂ´s the sense in that?

wintergt

ThatÂ´s the point they did it and failed. Now he has knowledge with which he can make the WG his bitch. You know that classic "IÂ´ve sent to blah blah blah and when anything happens to me then it will be sent to the newspapers" thing from countless criminal movies donÂ´t you. Nobody would believe him if he would say that before this arc. But since he has been assasinated, many people would now listen to him if he would say that in the worldwide newspapers. So he owns them.

This would work.. in a democracy.. maybe. The thing is, we have a world government now, so let's say Iceburg tells the newspapers that a secret government organisation tried to kill him. The newspaper prints it. (it is actually dubious whether they would just go against the WG, but let's say they did) So then what happens:

The most likely thing, the WG will rewrite what happened, just like they rewrote that Smoker defeated Crocodile. They can say that Iceburg is a danger to national security. (he has "weapons of mass destruction" so we have to eliminate him - not too far besides the truth either) Or that Iceburg is a criminal because he colaborated with the notorious pirates the Straw-hats. (again not so far besides the truth) Since they are the WG, they can do these kinds of things.

(snipped a whole of comments, because otherwise it gets too big.. =) but if u really want I can reply to all the other things too.. but I think it's best to just take the important points)

It has everything to do with it. Because that is a bigger glitch then the situation that we are discussing. But strangely that doesnÂ´t bother you, but that what I explain seems to be problematic for you while is more plausible then that Franky wasnÂ´t noticed for 4 years.

I just don't see how one "glitch" would justify other glitches.

And they did find out about Franky (eventually).. so if we follow this reasoning then they will find the Galley-La boys and the FF too if they just go back to Water 7.

IÂ´m sorry but I really donÂ´t know what that could be. The only thing that could be put into relation with Jaya and the Gorousei is that we first saw them in that arc. But what they said back then had absolutely nothing to do with the the island Jaya itself.

Yeah sorry, but I'll get to you about this when I get to my own computer that has the manga, tomorrow.

How? The people probably told them about it (…) For Krieg there was the personel of Baratie, for Buggy there was Boodle and for Arlong we even saw the sneaky rat who witnessed everything. Why do does it always have to be spies?

Well, that works too .. someone at Water 7 can tell the WG that Galley-La and the FF are back in town. Especially if they put bounties on their heads for their part in the attack on Enies Lobby.
@Wolfwood:

im sorry but i just can buy something that stupid if they take his word for it and ignore that those guys that are obviously from galley-la and later on dont even bother to investivage W7 then i would lose all respect for them cause they have proven that they are utterly and completly incompetent(which they have proven that they arent) so i just wont buy into that.

Pretty much how I feel about it too.

Yoska

@wolfwood:

im sorry but i just can buy something that stupid if they take his word for it and ignore that those guys that are obviously from galley-la

How they would know they're from Galley-La? Even if somebody would recognize Pauly, who has visited the place only once, Cocoro the hostage could easily negate the claim by saying she never saw him among her hijackers and verify that all of them were the evil Straw Hats. Iceburg could easily give an alibi, and if he does, the whole town will also.

This kind of solution would be very Oda like thing to do.

And theoratically, wouldn't it be more beneficial to blame Straw Hats from all this? And let others to be.

Ivotas

@jackvance:

This would work.. in a democracy.. maybe. The thing is, we have a world government now, so let's say Iceburg tells the newspapers that a secret government organisation tried to kill him. The newspaper prints it. (it is actually dubious whether they would just go against the WG, but let's say they did) So then what happens:

The most likely thing, the WG will rewrite what happened, just like they rewrote that Smoker defeated Crocodile. They can say that Iceburg is a danger to national security. (he has "weapons of mass destruction" so we have to eliminate him - not too far besides the truth either) Or that Iceburg is a criminal because he colaborated with the notorious pirates the Straw-hats. (again not so far besides the truth) Since they are the WG, they can do these kinds of things.

(snipped a whole of comments, because otherwise it gets too big.. =) but if u really want I can reply to all the other things too.. but I think it's best to just take the important points)

But the thing is that the WG knows that the Strawhats had much influences with other villages, cities and countries. You know if Iceburg tells something about the Strawhats in the newspapers then the Alabasta, Drum and the regions of East Blue could get in turmoil because they sense a danger from the WG trying to establish a police state. The harder the grib of the WG the more possible followers for Dragon they create. Never forget how much they fear that. So they have to be very aware of what move to pull next without causing a revolution.

I just don't see how one "glitch" would justify other glitches.

One glitch doesnÂ´t justify the other itÂ´s just that the one thing is a glitch and the other thing not. You just donÂ´t consider it as a glitch because you donÂ´t consider logic politic ways how it could work.

And they did find out about Franky (eventually).. so if we follow this reasoning then they will find the Galley-La boys and the FF too if they just go back to Water 7.

That I never denied. But if they take as long to find out that Galley-La and FF still is at Water 7 as they needed for Franky (which is 8 years) then probably Dragons revolution may have already been successful.

Yeah sorry, but I'll get to you about this when I get to my own computer that has the manga, tomorrow.

Feel free to come back at me with that at any time, since you already got me curious.

Well, that works too .. someone at Water 7 can tell the WG that Galley-La and the FF are back in town. Especially if they put bounties on their heads for their part in the attack on Enies Lobby.

You just donÂ´t get it. Why should they be looking for Galley-La when they consider the attackers as Strawhats. The only ones who know that the are Galley-La and FF are Lucci, Kaku, Blueno, Califa and Hattori. And they donÂ´t know that G-L and FF are at Enies Lobby. And the way it looks right know, they probably wont even find out. So why should they be looking for Paulie, Zanbai etc at Water 7 when they believe that their enemies are sailing the seas with direct route to the Marine HQ?

Kalei

Originally Posted by Wolfwood:
im sorry but i just can buy something that stupid if they take his word for it and ignore that those guys that are obviously from galley-la and later on dont even bother to investivage W7 then i would lose all respect for them cause they have proven that they are utterly and completly incompetent(which they have proven that they arent) so i just wont buy into that.

Wolfwood, you seem to be grasping at straws here. The point is Zanbai said "Yeah we're with the Strawhats" and that's that. Galley La, in NAME, is off the hook. How the hell would the gov't workers at Enies know exactly what the Galley La workers look like?

In that kind of battle situation, people simply lump you into the "friendlies" or the "enemies" and thanks to Zanbai, the "enemies" have been labelled as the Strawhats, no matter where they're originally from.

Why would the gov't launch an investigation afterwards to find out if what they said was true or not? There's plenty of evidence in the situation to validate what Zanbai said. Luffy charged in, followed by a ton of random people who were then joined by other Strawhat crew members. Ontop of all that the invaders even SAID they were with the strawhats.

The only reason we know differently from the marines is because we're reading it from an omnicient view point. The characters here were set up to take the information at face value and also see the statement validated by many other factors at the time. That's how Oda planned it and that's how it went down.

When arguing against whether or not something is happening in the manga, try to remember that the characters portrayed do NOT have the same information you do as a reader.

wintergt

@Ivotas:

But the thing is that the WG knows that the Strawhats had much influences with other villages, cities and countries. You know if Iceburg tells something about the Strawhats in the newspapers then the Alabasta, Drum and the regions of East Blue could get in turmoil because they sense a danger from the WG trying to establish a police state.

The straw-hats are wanted criminals who also just destroyed Enies Lobby. From a political standpoint I don't understand what you're trying to say here.. the whole world is going to root for the criminals now?..

One glitch doesnÂ´t justify the other itÂ´s just that the one thing is a glitch and the other thing not. You just donÂ´t consider it as a glitch because you donÂ´t consider logic politic ways how it could work.

Also, don't forget that that Spandam/Franky thing is basically the mistake of one man - Spandam, who also can't drink a cup of cofee without spilling it. I'd hope the rest of the marines aren't all this incompetent.. which is what you seem to imply since here we got over 10k witnesses, plus the gourousei are probably directly going to infere now, since one of their pillars of justice has been destoyed. I sure would be disappointed if they all turned out to be incompetent idiots..

(Oh yeah, in the recent cover story Hina found the running Baroque Works people even though they were trying to hide.. so some of them have some wits about them atleast..)

Feel free to come back at me with that at any time, since you already got me curious.

Yeah, me too now lol :laugh:
@kalei:

Wolfwood, you seem to be grasping at straws here. The point is Zanbai said "Yeah we're with the Strawhats" and that's that. Galley La, in NAME, is off the hook. How the hell would the gov't workers at Enies know exactly what the Galley La workers look like?

The Destroyers stand out. Sodom and Gomorra stand out. Paulie used his rope action on the giant and the wolf-riders. Paulie said "tell those guys they are fired". The government has done bussiness with Galley-La in the past. Paulie has been to Enies Lobby before, so they are bound to know who he is. CP9 knows who they are. Someone amongst those 10k people might have been to Water 7 before, or even live there. Someone at Water 7 might tell the government they saw Galley-La and the FF leave with the straw-hats. etc

Polygon

The Destroyers stand out. Sodom and Gomorra stand out. Paulie used his rope action on the giant and the wolf-riders. Paulie said "tell those guys they are fired". The government has done bussiness with Galley-La in the past. Paulie has been to Enies Lobby before, so they are bound to know who he is. CP9 knows who they are. Someone amongst those 10k people might have been to Water 7 before, or even live there. Someone at Water 7 might tell the government they saw Galley-La and the FF leave with the straw-hats. etc

That's not very likley…...

Ivotas

@jackvance:

The straw-hats are wanted criminals who also just destroyed Enies Lobby. From a political standpoint I don't understand what you're trying to say here.. the whole world is going to root for the criminals now?..

You donÂ´t get it. The Government knows that the Strawhats didnÂ´t to a criminal thing. They know that it was Luffy who defeated Krieg, Arlong and Crocodile etc. And because of that they know that the leaders of Alabasta, Drum etc. know are allies of the Strawhats. And if in the newspapers Iceburg speaks positively about the Strawhats but negatively about the WG and if he would be killed afterwards, they would make guys like Cobra, Dalton etc their enemies.
ThatÂ´s what IÂ´m trying to say. They can do to the Strawhats whatever they like because they are criminals as you say. But if they do to anything to the citizens of the WG then it will create a turmoil which among the world which would play right into Dragons hands. And we all know that they fear Dragon the most. Get what I mean? They can do something against Iceburg, but if they do so they might launch a revolution against themselves. That definitely is not what they want and they know it.

Also, don't forget that that Spandam/Franky thing is basically the mistake of one man - Spandam, who also can't drink a cup of cofee without spilling it. I'd hope the rest of the marines aren't all this incompetent.. which is what you seem to imply since here we got over 10k witnesses, plus the gourousei are probably directly going to infere now, since one of their pillars of justice has been destoyed. I sure would be disappointed if they all turned out to be incompetent idiots..

How often do I have to repeat myself until itÂ´s clear? The 10k people have zero reason to think of G-L and FF to be anything else then Strawhat pirates. That is all they know. The only ones who could tell them (Lucci & co) wonÂ´t probably ever find out that G-L and FF were at Enies Lobby. Is that really that hard to understand.

And as far as Spandam is concerned, true that it is one man but this very man is the director of CP9 and the man who launched it all. In chapter 379 he even states that he isnÂ´t the muscle but the brain of the team. One man truly, but he has his position because of his sigh intelligence. So how stupid must all the regular guys be then.

(Oh yeah, in the recent cover story Hina found the running Baroque Works people even though they were trying to hide.. so some of them have some wits about them atleast..)

Yeah some of them had. But Hina would never found out without the help of the Unluckies. And who should the WG ask for help in chase of the Strawhats ask for help? Cocoro? Chimney? They could ask them but they will probably get false information from them. Up till now Oda writes everything in a way where thereÂ´s no clue given to the WG to think that anyone else then the Strawhats have invaded Enies Lobby.

The Destroyers stand out. Sodom and Gomorra stand out. Paulie used his rope action on the giant and the wolf-riders. Paulie said "tell those guys they are fired". The government has done bussiness with Galley-La in the past. Paulie has been to Enies Lobby before, so they are bound to know who he is. CP9 knows who they are. Someone amongst those 10k people might have been to Water 7 before, or even live there. Someone at Water 7 might tell the government they saw Galley-La and the FF leave with the straw-hats. etc

You do like to use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example while we are already past that point that they can easily be explained to be "horsenapped" animals that have been used to carry the invaders.
And as I said if they think that the Destroyers are Strawhats then thatÂ´s that. Even if they stand out at Water 7, why should they ever find out about them? Do you think a regular dude from Water Seven just uses a Den Den Mushi to call the WG and say "Nice weather here, oh and just for your information, thereÂ´s three very large guys living somwhere here on the island." That would probably be interpreted as prank call, so why should they ever find out?
And as far as Paulie is concerned, true that he was a shipwright for them before the attack. But right now he outted himself as Strawhat pirate. So why should they think anything else of him? ItÂ´s basically always the same argument. If they think that he is a pirate they wonÂ´t be looking for him at the city anymore. They will think he abandoned his former boss and went with Luffy.

wintergt

@Ivotas:

They can do something against Iceburg, but if they do so they might launch a revolution against themselves. That definitely is not what they want and they know it.

The thing that confuses me here is the following: are we arguing about whether or not they will recognize Galley-La and the FF, or that Iceburg can protect them even though they have attacked Enies Lobby?

How often do I have to repeat myself until itÂ´s clear? The 10k people have zero reason to think of G-L and FF to be anything else then Strawhat pirates. That is all they know. The only ones who could tell them (Lucci & co) wonÂ´t probably ever find out that G-L and FF were at Enies Lobby. Is that really that hard to understand.

Oh getting snippy? :P Sorry but I'm too stubborn to not argue :laugh: Anyway, is it really that inconceivable that they will give descriptions of what all of the attackers looked like? They don't have to figure it out right away.. it's only a matter of time before someone recognizes them for who they really are. The things I explained further are simply markers which make it very easy to figure this out.

On top of that, CP9 just made an assassination attempt on Iceburg, the head of Galley-La. And they brought Franky in. Since the straw-hats also came from Water 7, it really doesn't take a genius to figure out that just maybe.. Galley-La might want to avenge their boss? And the Franky Family might want to come after their boss too?

It's not like it's petty theft here.. this is the biggest thing that has happened in ages.. the WG is gonna put their full power behind this investigation now.. so I hope atleast someone can put 2 and 2 together like I just said.

And as far as Spandam is concerned, true that it is one man but this very man is the director of CP9 and the man who launched it all. In chapter 379 he even states that he isnÂ´t the muscle but the brain of the team. One man truly, but he has his position because of his sigh intelligence. So how stupid must all the regular guys be then.

Eh you're the one who said Spandam was stupid for not figuring Franky out, not me..

Yeah some of them had. But Hina would never found out without the help of the Unluckies. And who should the WG ask for help in chase of the Strawhats ask for help?

For one, they can question CP9 and Spandam after they got beaten. Or read the reports that CP9 has made over the years (like you said before). Or ask anyone who has ever been to Water 7, which will be plenty of people.

You do like to use Sodom and Gomorrah as an example while we are already past that point that they can easily be explained to be "horsenapped" animals that have been used to carry the invaders.

That's not really the point.. the ones that stand out are simply to identify who the "new straw-hats" are. Like I said before, they'll make descriptions, and with Sodom and Gomorra and the destroyers and Paulie, it's just really easy to figure out.

And as far as Paulie is concerned, true that he was a shipwright for them before the attack. But right now he outted himself as Strawhat pirate. So why should they think anything else of him? ItÂ´s basically always the same argument. If they think that he is a pirate they wonÂ´t be looking for him at the city anymore. They will think he abandoned his former boss and went with Luffy.

So if you agree that they can recognize Paulie, and considering he beat one of the giants and some of those wolf-riders, that'll warrant a bounty on his head. Meaning that in the near future there's gonna be flyers all over the world with his head on it. How safe is he gonna be in Water 7 then?

Also, when the WG gets a new report on the straw-hats - maybe two months from now someone allied to the WG spots them somewhere - and this report states that they have a crew of 8. Wait a second.. where did Paulie and all the others go?

Ivotas

@jackvance:

The thing that confuses me here is the following: are we arguing about whether or not they will recognize Galley-La and the FF, or that Iceburg can protect them even though they have attacked Enies Lobby?

We are discussing both actually. The thing is that they have no clue to think that theyÂ´ve been attacked by annyone else then the Strawhats. But like you said at least some guys probably from the Marine HQ will be sent to ask questions at Water 7 and who better to ask then the attacked Mayor. And if that happens it is easy for him to cover G-L and FF by saying it was the Strawhats. ThatÂ´s it.
The whole thing about putting pressure on the WG is just in case that they wonÂ´t be satisfied easily. I hope this answer somewhat makes it a bit clearer.

Oh getting snippy? :P Sorry but I'm too stubborn to not argue :laugh: Anyway, is it really that inconceivable that they will give descriptions of what all of the attackers looked like? They don't have to figure it out right away.. it's only a matter of time before someone recognizes them for who they really are. The things I explained further are simply markers which make it very easy to figure this out.

Like it is that easy. Smoker, Tashigi, Aokiji and lots of marines have already seen some of the Strawhats with their own eyes and still besides Luffy, Zoro and Robin nobody else is wanted. And you say a vague discription from some random guys will get Paulie etc. specifically wanted? Sorry IÂ´m not bying it.
BTW, IÂ´m not getting snippy it just is that we are walking in circles here while it wouldnÂ´t be necessary because most things have been mentioned already.

On top of that, CP9 just made an assassination attempt on Iceburg, the head of Galley-La. And they brought Franky in. Since the straw-hats also came from Water 7, it really doesn't take a genius to figure out that just maybe.. Galley-La might want to avenge their boss? And the Franky Family might want to come after their boss too?

IÂ´m sorry but it does take a genius to figure that out because except for CP9 nobody actually knows what was going on behind the curtains or are you really trying to tell me that every moron at Enies Lobby knows already that Franky is Cutty Flam. This is a secret mission and though Fukuro likes to spill the beans IÂ´m dead sure that nobody knows whatÂ´s going on.

It's not like it's petty theft here.. this is the biggest thing that has happened in ages.. the WG is gonna put their full power behind this investigation now.. so I hope atleast someone can put 2 and 2 together like I just said.

What investigation? True that it is the biggest thing that happened in ages but the criminals already outted themselves as Strawhat pirates. There was even a motif and thatÂ´s to rescue Robin. And if Franky joins the Strawhats and the WG finds out then they will assume that the FF joined too, since they already outted themselves as Strawhats.
There is no need for investigation. ItÂ´s not a terroristic attack where you donÂ´t see the responsibles. The invaders were clearly visible to everybody since it was an open attack. This is war. Why should anybody investigate here. Sounds very bureaucratic IMO and a waste of time. Remember that Aokiji already says that the Strawhats are getting close to Headquarters. After this arc they will be even closer.

Just look at it this way from the point of view from the WG:
Around 70 people ((60 Frankies, 5 Strawhats, 3 Galley-La) I know itÂ´s 68 but they donÂ´t know the exact number so lets call it 70) who claim to Strawhat pirates attack Enies Lobby and take everybody down. Then they set sail to escape on the Grand Line which is a one way route. This means the 70 men strong pirate crew that just took down the front door of the WG is getting even closer to the Marine HQ. Do you seriously expect me to believe that the WG or Marine will send an investigation party to Water 7 to see whatÂ´s happened? WouldnÂ´t it actually make more sense to prepare to intercept and defeat this large crew that just took down over 10.000 people? To me at least it makes more sense to prepare for battle then sending away an investigation party.

Eh you're the one who said Spandam was stupid for not figuring Franky out, not me..

Yep I did but that was just to prove how incompetent the brain of the super special secret agency of CP9 is, so how much intelligence you excpect me to expect from the WGÂ´s small fry?

For one, they can question CP9 and Spandam after they got beaten. Or read the reports that CP9 has made over the years (like you said before). Or ask anyone who has ever been to Water 7, which will be plenty of people.

DidnÂ´t we already establish how secret agents normally get treated once they fail their mission. And even if not, imagine the situation that Spandam even runs renegade on the WG but gets stopped by the Strawhats. What do you think how much they will believe his words?
Other then that, I can constantly just repeat CP9 will probably never findout that G-L and FF were there so they canÂ´t blackmail them. And even if they could theyÂ´ve already outted themselves as pirates so the WG will probably believe those words. I mean who in their right mind attacks the front door of the WG and then gets back home to keep on living as if nothing has ever happened. I mean G-L and FF will probably do it, but the WG wonÂ´t ever think that they really are so stupid to do that. Espcially if they are worried about an approaching Strawhat crew.

That's not really the point.. the ones that stand out are simply to identify who the "new straw-hats" are. Like I said before, they'll make descriptions, and with Sodom and Gomorra and the destroyers and Paulie, it's just really easy to figure out.

Lol, are you teasing me? I said it dozens of times that with Paulie etc. they know what the invaders look like. But for christs sake why should they go to Water 7 to look for them when they think that they are at the seaÂ´s already? Did you read any of the arguments IÂ´ve mentioned in this very post so far? There is so many reason why they should search at the seas while there is really is none to search at Water 7. The WG has been invaded, like you say this is a big thing. Who in his right mind looks for a 70 men strong pirate crew in a city? This is now officially a war. The Strawhats will already be on the way to the HQ, thereÂ´s no need to go for them, theyÂ´ll come by their own, so why should they waste the time for investigations. Do you get what IÂ´m trying to say here? <_< The Strawhats are coming. Better prepare themselves for battle instead of sending away an investigation party.

So if you agree that they can recognize Paulie, and considering he beat one of the giants and some of those wolf-riders, that'll warrant a bounty on his head. Meaning that in the near future there's gonna be flyers all over the world with his head on it. How safe is he gonna be in Water 7 then?

Same argument. Why send out flyers when they will come to them eventually? It would be wiser for them to persuade Doflamingo and Kuma to remain at the HQ to fight against the Strawhats instead of wasting the time on printing flyers for somebody who they think already is on his way to them.
ThatÂ´s actually the reason why I think that nobody will get a new bounty after this arc. I think that the will speculate that the Strawhats will be coming to them.

Also, when the WG gets a new report on the straw-hats - maybe two months from now someone allied to the WG spots them somewhere - and this report states that they have a crew of 8. Wait a second.. where did Paulie and all the others go?

That indeed is something that I expect to happen. But this I think will actually cause a large confusion when they already are at the Marine HQ. Then it will be to late to think about where did the other 60 guys go, because the main fighters will have to be taken down first. After that is finished they can investigate on the others. But we know that they wonÂ´t finish Luffy off, so there wonÂ´t be an investigation afterwards.

Of course everything I said towards the end is highly and I mean highly speculative but it is not impossible to happen. The Strawhats will cause serious headaches to the WG that much is clear. And the more dangerous they get the lesser time the WG has for investigations and the more they will have to take actions. This is actually the chance how Paulie, Zanbai etc. wonÂ´t get persued.

Of course IÂ´m aware that sooner or later someone will come for that, just as Spandam did come for Tom-san. But that was ten years after the Pirate King was executed. They probably had more important business to do and it took time to figure out that Tom-san helped Roger.
The same could actually happen to Paulie, Zanbai etc. with the only difference that unlike in Rogers times we have a Dragon who actually aims to overthrow the WG.
The WG has first to take care of the big dangers as the Strawhats, Dragon etc. before they can concentrate to get the small fish like Galley-La and FF. But I think the WG will actually never exists that long in the first place.

The thing is that after this arc we canÂ´t look at One Piece and the Strawhats as we did before. ItÂ´s not just a small crew of retards that is powerful. With what they are pulling now they will become very dangerous enemies of the states and they wonÂ´t be just chased by small marines but by the big guys. Therefore we canÂ´t look at it from the perspective as if the WG has time to send investigation parties to useless cities. From now on it will be a "war" and the time for investigations will be over.
Note that the whole talk about war from used because I based by argument from the WGÂ´s point of view. I never meant that Luffy is seeing everything as wartime now. He still will be seeking adventure. ItÂ´s just the Gorousei that would see the situation dead serious in my hypothesis.

Please say that you at least roughly understood what I was trying to say jack, because rewriting such a long post would make me go mad. =(

wintergt

@Ivotas:

Please say that you at least roughly understood what I was trying to say jack, because rewriting such a long post would make me go mad. =(

Hahaha :laugh: Ok well I understand - I just don't agree

If, in the real world, a crime happens and we have witnesses. If those witnesses don't recognize the criminals, does that mean no-one will ever find out who they are? I think you are a bit more realistic in this respect Ivotas, but this was atleast what Kalei was saying. What will ofcourse happen is that the witnesses will give descriptions, sketches will be made, and then the cops will try to figure out who these people are.

We also agreed that Paulie will be recognized pretty much straight away. So it's safe to say that within a week they'll know that the new straw-hats are Galley-La and the FF. When I said an investigation at Water 7, ofcourse this'll be a bit more than just a chat with Iceburg. It's as simple as showing the sketches to people on the street and asking them if they know who these people are - FF and Galley-La are simply too famous on Water 7 to not be recognized straight away. But that's probably not even necessary - Water 7 is a train-ride away from the marine HQ, and they've done bussiness there. So no doubt someone at marine HQ will simply identify the new straw-hats for who they are.

I hope you're with me on that one.

Then they will issue bounties on their heads. Remember Paulie directly defeated a giant and some of those wolf-riders. (that's a bit more serious than what Usopp or Nami have ever done - I mean, Luffy got a bounty for defeating 3 pirates in East Blue, I think you can agree that beating the crap out of marine officials and partaking in an assault on Enies Lobby is far more severe than that) And then, Paulie and the others won't be safe on Water 7 anymore. To name one thing, those debt-collectors would probably have zero problem with turning Paulie in to atleast get the bounty reward.

You said they won't have time to spread flyers. Well, they don't have to. As we have seen on Jaya, the newspapers spread the wanted posters all over the world. All it takes is the administration department to issue the bounties. (this does not slow down the pursuit at sea, since this is done by guys who sit at their desks)

Also, Water 7 hated the FF. If they see wanted posters of them.. there will be people who will rat them out to the WG. And I seriously doubt this will take 10 years. Tom built Roger's ship.. that's quite different from Paulie and the rest who partook in the assault on Enies Lobby. Like you said.. this is a war-type situation.

And even if it should take a long time to figure it out.. the point remains that they are not safe. Saying that Dragon's revolution might have happened is a moot point really since this is just speculation. As soon as the WG finds out that some Straw-hats (Paulie et all) are on Water 7, a train-ride away from marine HQ no less, it's over for them.

You also said they won't issue new bounties because they will figure that the straw-hats will come to them. I don't really follow on that one.. it was made clear that the Straw-hats can't withstand a Buster Call, which will probably be issued after this arc. This means Luffy and friends will be running away. And issuing bounties is something that happens at the administration department, it does not slow down anything in terms of pursuit.

Also, pursuing the Straw-hats on the sea will not take every single resource the marines have. I can imagine a Buster Call will be after the straw-hats on the sea. They can send ground-forces by train to Water 7 as soon as they figure out that some of the Straw-hats (G-La and FF) are on Water 7.

About Dragon: yes this gives them head-aches, as does the meeting between Shanks and Whitebeard, but don't forget Dragon has been active for many years already (he was first mentionned when Vivi was still a little girl, so he's been at it atleast 8-10 years already). I don't see how this would interfere with the WG going after public enemy number one (after this arc): The Straw-Hats. Like you said, G-La and the FF have been identified as Straw-Hats now too.. so if the WG finds out that simply are hiding on Water 7 (which like I said is inevitable) then they will probably spare no effort to do them in, and yeah.. it's just a train-ride away from the HQ..

And you agreed that they'll surely start asking questions when they notice that there's still only 8 straw-hats sailing the seas. I don't think you can use the argument that Luffy will be victorious anyway.. we know this because we read the story, inside the One Piece world the odds are surely stacked against Luffy if he goes against the WG. (remember how he royally got his ass kicked by Ao Kiji) Also, like I said, if a Buster Call goes after the Straw-hats on the seas, this leaves plenty of resources (ground forces) to go to Water 7. And all these things about G-LA and the FF mostly happen at the administration department anyway.

I respect your opinions Ivotas, don't get me wrong, but I just feel that in light of all the things I just said it would be unrealistic. Yes, I would be disappointed in Oda if he took this "easy" road. It's something I'd expect of a kiddy show, not One Piece..

Polygon

Oddly enoghf, I don't think water 7 hated Franky or the FF. Remember the bar scene? What if those things have happened before? I think there were just scared because of the random things he does.

Jeltz

I pretty much agree with Jack. Wouldn't the world goverment try to do background checks on the new Starwhats? If they do they would probably quite easily figure out who they are. Iceburg wand Galley-la would probably get away but Paulie's crimes are quite severe.

Neither Paulie, Franky or the Franky familiy can just return to Water 7 and be safe from the goverment there. Maybe it would take a while to discover their identities but eventually they will. Especially if Luffy continues his path to fame. They either have to hide their identities somehow or become pirates because of that they already are criminals. If Paulie gets recognized by the goverment wouldn't he pose a threat to Iceburg if he continued to work for the company? The world goverment can ignore that they make ships for pirates but supporting an attack on Enies Lobby?

I am very interested in how Oda will solve this. More than the CP9 battles actually.

wintergt

@Jeltz:

I am very interested in how Oda will solve this.

Me too. I'm already half way expecting all of them to permanently join the mugiwara crew to man the new huge ship they'll be getting. But this would totally change One Piece as we know it. But then again nothing will be the same after this assault on Enies Lobby anyway. It could potentially work if they just add Franky as the "real" new crew-member, and not give the others (Paulie, G-La and FF) much screen-time, just kinda have them around, but mainly focus on the crew as we knew them + Franky.

Ofcourse there's Luffy saying he wanted 10 crewmembers that botches this theory as these kinds of exclamations usually come true. So then the question remains what is to become of the others..

But surely Oda must be going somewhere by making them say they are Straw-Hats. It sounds like either a set-up for a permanent join, or, like Ivotas said, give them an excuse to hide. But like I pointed out, I'd find this very lame..

Ivotas

@jackvance:

We also agreed that Paulie will be recognized pretty much straight away. So it's safe to say that within a week they'll know that the new straw-hats are Galley-La and the FF. When I said an investigation at Water 7, ofcourse this'll be a bit more than just a chat with Iceburg. It's as simple as showing the sketches to people on the street and asking them if they know who these people are - FF and Galley-La are simply too famous on Water 7 to not be recognized straight away. But that's probably not even necessary - Water 7 is a train-ride away from the marine HQ, and they've done bussiness there. So no doubt someone at marine HQ will simply identify the new straw-hats for who they are.

I wonder where you have that information from that the Marine HQ is one train-ride aways from Water 7. This has never been said in the manga. Enies Lobby is one train-ride away but not the HQ.

And I agree that they will be recognized never doubted that. I just donÂ´t see the need for the WG going to Water 7 in search for Paulie when they think that he is with the Strawhats. ThatÂ´s just if for some reason they find out that Sanji actually is a Baratie cook and then send one East Blue unit to track him down at Baratie. They will think that he is a Strawhat so it is only logic to assume that he is with his captain and not with his former carpenter boss. Is that really so unlogic?

You said they won't have time to spread flyers. Well, they don't have to. As we have seen on Jaya, the newspapers spread the wanted posters all over the world. All it takes is the administration department to issue the bounties. (this does not slow down the pursuit at sea, since this is done by guys who sit at their desks)

Again you didnÂ´t get what I mean. I take flyers and wanted posters at the same. I am just saying that you donÂ´t need to waste your time on worldwide wanted posters if you know that the Strawhats are coming at you. I donÂ´t see why that is so illogic to you.

And even if it should take a long time to figure it out.. the point remains that they are not safe. Saying that Dragon's revolution might have happened is a moot point really since this is just speculation. As soon as the WG finds out that some Straw-hats (Paulie et all) are on Water 7, a train-ride away from marine HQ no less, it's over for them.

Of course saying that Dragons revolution might have happened is a very moot point I said that myself. The point of my argument was that first you deal with the head of the snake before you finish of the leftovers. The WG already has serious problems in coping with Dragon, or Shanks and Whitebeards upcoming meeting. The Strawhats invasion at Enies Lobby is the next big thing that needs to be taken care of. Therefore you first finish off the head of the snake. DonÂ´t you agree here. ItÂ´s just like what happened with Tom and Roger. They didnÂ´t get Tom first and Roger later. Roger was the more serious threat and after they dealt with him, they could focus on hunting the leftovers.
That might PaulieÂ´s etc. chance to be left alone for short amount of time. I never said they will never track them down. But with all that is happening right now, the WG would really retarded to catch the small fry first and not focusing on the real threat. DonÂ´t you agree here?

You also said they won't issue new bounties because they will figure that the straw-hats will come to them. I don't really follow on that one.. it was made clear that the Straw-hats can't withstand a Buster Call, which will probably be issued after this arc. This means Luffy and friends will be running away. And issuing bounties is something that happens at the administration department, it does not slow down anything in terms of pursuit.

Excuse me, but where was it made clear that the Strawhats canÂ´t withstand a Buster Call? That is what Robin thinks but then again Nami also thought that they canÂ´t do anything against Arlong. True that the Buster Call fleet is a lot more powerful then Arlong but hey, itÂ´s not like that the Strawhats canÂ´t overcome them is a given. We are talking about the crew of the future Pirate King here.

Also, pursuing the Straw-hats on the sea will not take every single resource the marines have. I can imagine a Buster Call will be after the straw-hats on the sea. They can send ground-forces by train to Water 7 as soon as they figure out that some of the Straw-hats (G-La and FF) are on Water 7.

Who can send ground forces by train? The Marine HQ isnÂ´t connected to Water 7 by train. ItÂ´s Enies Lobby and by the end of this arc there will probably be no one left to fight so if someoneÂ´s coming then he would come from the HQ the sea route which would be a waste of time since the Strawhats have to come down that way eventually.

About Dragon: yes this gives them head-aches, as does the meeting between Shanks and Whitebeard, but don't forget Dragon has been active for many years already (he was first mentionned when Vivi was still a little girl, so he's been at it atleast 8-10 years already). I don't see how this would interfere with the WG going after public enemy number one (after this arc): The Straw-Hats. Like you said, G-La and the FF have been identified as Straw-Hats now too.. so if the WG finds out that simply are hiding on Water 7 (which like I said is inevitable) then they will probably spare no effort to do them in, and yeah.. it's just a train-ride away from the HQ..

Here we go again, it just takes one fake report from Iceburg to cover the Strawhats. He can say that they were there rampaged and then set sail with their large crew. From all that has happened they better believe what he said and not tempt him with an investigation party because he is in the better position now because of the reasons IÂ´ve explained in my previous posts.

And you agreed that they'll surely start asking questions when they notice that there's still only 8 straw-hats sailing the seas. I don't think you can use the argument that Luffy will be victorious anyway.. we know this because we read the story, inside the One Piece world the odds are surely stacked against Luffy if he goes against the WG. (remember how he royally got his ass kicked by Ao Kiji) Also, like I said, if a Buster Call goes after the Straw-hats on the seas, this leaves plenty of resources (ground forces) to go to Water 7. And all these things about G-LA and the FF mostly happen at the administration department anyway.

My deal with the head of the snake comment actually already answered what I think about that one. I never said that Paulie etc. will be covered eternally. That would be naive. I just said that at the moment dealing with the real threat is more important. The leftovers can be taken care of later. And IÂ´m sure that in the moment they find out that the Strawhats are just 8 guys there wonÂ´t be any time to go to Water 7 and catch the small fry.

I respect your opinions Ivotas, don't get me wrong, but I just feel that in light of all the things I just said it would be unrealistic. Yes, I would be disappointed in Oda if he took this "easy" road. It's something I'd expect of a kiddy show, not One Piece..

I respect you opinion too, itÂ´s just that I donÂ´t see anything unrealistic in what IÂ´ve said. I think that it is very realistic that you deal with the leaders first and then take care of the leftovers. To me that makes sense. And from the current point the WG must think that the Strawhats consist of about 70 people. They will find out the truth later, I never questioned that, but buy then it makes more sense to go for the leader first. Just as it was the case with Roger and Tom. Do you really think that this is unrealistic?

wintergt

@Ivotas:

I wonder where you have that information from that the Marine HQ is one train-ride aways from Water 7. This has never been said in the manga. Enies Lobby is one train-ride away but not the HQ.

Isn't the marine HQ connected to Enies Lobby through an internal sea route? (the one behind the big gate) This would mean that a ground-force can simply take the internal ferry from HQ to Enies Lobby, and then take the train to W7. But this doesn't matter much for the argument either way, I just wanted to illustrate that it isn't very hard to send troops to Water 7, troops that have nothing to do with a sea pursuit of the mugiwara's.

I am just saying that you donÂ´t need to waste your time on worldwide wanted posters if you know that the Strawhats are coming at you. I donÂ´t see why that is so illogic to you.

Well, like I said, issuing worldwide wanted posters does not waste time. While a sea-force goes after the Mugiwara's, the administration guys who sit at their desks will issue new bounties, and the newspapers will spread them throughout the world, the same way this has always happened. This is done by people who have nothing to do with an actual pursuit.

It's the same in the real world really.. even if the cops are after some notorious criminals, there will still be reports about this in the newspapers etc.

That might PaulieÂ´s etc. chance to be left alone for short amount of time.

I can actually agree here.. but depends on what your definition of "a short amount of time" is. If they go to Water 7 to be safe for a few weeks, then why go back at all? They surely won't be able to resume their old lives for many years..

I never said they will never track them down. But with all that is happening right now, the WG would really retarded to catch the small fry first and not focusing on the real threat. DonÂ´t you agree here?

I agree that they will send a large force over the seas to go after the Straw-hats, probably a Buster Call. But that doesn't mean there is no-one left to do anything else. They can just send a smaller division to apprehend G-La and the FF. That'd be a sound thing to do for many reasons: they can show the world they've already caught some Straw-Hats and question them for leads and information about their captain.

Again it's the same in the real world. Are the cops only going after the masterminds of a criminal organisation? No, in most cases some of the small fry will be apprehended first. Often because they are easier to capture, because the cops can show they are making progress, because they can question them for leads on the masterminds, etc.

Another thing, even if it isn't the WG going after them, Paulie and all won't be safe on Water 7 once the bounties have been issued. Like I said, those debt collectors could rat Paulie out, some people who have been damaged by the FF (or who simply don't like em) might rat them out for revenge.

And from the current point the WG must think that the Strawhats consist of about 70 people. They will find out the truth later, I never questioned that, but buy then it makes more sense to go for the leader first. Just as it was the case with Roger and Tom. Do you really think that this is unrealistic?

Well, I got the impression from the initial post you made that you assumed G-La and the FF could just go back to W7, resume their old lives and live happily ever after. I'm sorry if this wasn't what you intended to say. But that's why I replied by saying it's folly to go back to Water 7 and stay there, as it's only a matter of time before they get arrested there. A week, a month, a year, who knows? But the time will come. And the difference for me is that while Tom built Roger's ship, Paulie and all have committed direct crimes against the WG by assaulting Enies Lobby, and on top of that they are straw-hats now too. If Tom had actually been a crewmember of Roger, and partaken in an assault against the WG, I doubt it would've taken 10 years for him to get arrested..

Yoska

@jackvance:

Yes, I would be disappointed in Oda if he took this "easy" road. It's something I'd expect of a kiddy show, not One Piece..

The thing is, One Piece is a kiddy show. A large portions of the audience is young people. Oda has never payed attention on getting explaining stuff (my first most argument why I like One Piece has always been that Oda doesn't take himself too seriosly) and I don't see why a simple and straight solution wouldn't work this time too as it has always in the past. Especially now as Oda has prepared the path for it and it does make sense!

wintergt

@Yoska:

The thing is, One Piece is a kiddy show. A large portions of the audience is young people. Oda has never payed attention on getting explaining stuff (my first most argument why I like One Piece has always been that Oda doesn't take himself too seriosly) and I don't see why a simple and straight solution wouldn't work this time too as it has always in the past. Especially now as Oda has prepared the path for it and it does make sense!

Well, One Piece started as a kiddy show, but this changed from the Arlong Arc onwards, and it's become even more mature now with Water 7. I only started to like it from Arlong onwards for this very reason.

And yes, Oda has sometimes used "pseudo-realism" to advance his plot, and this does bother me a bit (like the rubber vs electricity thing, or Luffy's final hit on Eneru) but never so much as to ruin the story. I am willing to overlook those things because Oda atleast makes an effort to explain himself, and part of it is simply for humour or to make the plot work better, so that's all good.

And in One Piece "human relations", Oda has actually shown a great amount of realism. For the most part, people behave like real people. Quick examples would be the spreading of the bounties, the CP9 secret organisation, the WG rewriting history about what happened to Crocodile, etc. The only time Oda goes a bit crazy on this respect, is for comedy purposes, like Foxy's crazy antics. Trust me, I'm very allergic to unrealistic human behavior that typically permeades kiddy shows, and I would've stopped watching One Piece a long time ago if this had been the case here.

One Piece is like Shrek - it has elements that appeal to kids, but it also has elements that appeal to an older audience.

That's why I'd be disappointed in Oda if he just lets Galley-La and the FF go home and resume their old lives and live happily ever after. There is no comedy value there, and it would just be lame..

Yoska

I have been reading One Piece quite of a long time and for me Water 7 hasn't been much different than the other arcs. Anyway, okey:

A list of defending "factous"

Galley-las and the Family has been labeled as Straw Hats
None of the Marines hasn't recognized them
They have alibis
The government won't take straight actions against Iceburg
The Five Elder Stars doesn't know the details of Spandam's plan
Remains of Galley-la is lacking personel
Aqua Laguna made significant damage to Water 7
Members of the Family dreams of becoming shipwrights
Pauly is living his dream and is loyal to Iceburg

Basing on these I don't see why it wouldn't be realistic for them to go back home, Iceburg hiring the Family, and to rebuild the city and the Company while the Government continue to chase the culprits, Straw Hats.

wintergt

@Yoska:

I have been reading One Piece quite of a long time and for me Water 7 hasn't been much different than the other arcs.

You didn't notice the unprecedented gloomy mood?

Galley-las and the Family has been labeled as Straw Hats

So if I rob a bank and tell them I'm Al-qaida, then they'll go look for me in the Middle East? (obviously they will try to figure who these new straw-hats are, and it's damn easy to figure it out too)

None of the Marines hasn't recognized them

So if I rob a bank and no-one in there recognizes me, that means no-one will ever figure out who I am? (The witnesses will give descriptions and make sketches, and then they will try to figure out who the new straw-hats are, which is damn easy since they already know who Paulie is as he has been to Enies Lobby before, plus Galley-La and the FF are pretty wellknown on W7, a town which the marines do bussiness with)

They have alibis

No they don't

The government won't take straight actions against Iceburg

That is not necessary, all they will do is take straight action against the people who asaulted Enies Lobby - ie the Galley-La boys and the FF.

The Five Elder Stars doesn't know the details of Spandam's plan

Proof?

Remains of Galley-la is lacking personel

Aqua Laguna made significant damage to Water 7

Members of the Family dreams of becoming shipwrights

Pauly is living his dream and is loyal to Iceburg

Got nothing to do with anything.

Ivotas

@jackvance:

Isn't the marine HQ connected to Enies Lobby through an internal sea route? (the one behind the big gate) This would mean that a ground-force can simply take the internal ferry from HQ to Enies Lobby, and then take the train to W7. But this doesn't matter much for the argument either way, I just wanted to illustrate that it isn't very hard to send troops to Water 7, troops that have nothing to do with a sea pursuit of the mugiwara's.

Enies Lobby isnÂ´t connected to the Marine HQ itÂ´s just that you can get from one place to the other. That however doesnÂ´t mean that Enies Lobby is on the direct route between Water 7 and Marine HQ. Remeber Aokiji said they are getting close to the HQ not to Enies Lobby so there might be a direct way from Water 7 to HQ.
And it does matter because this is the Grand Line. There is only a one way route and if the Strawhats leave Water 7 behind they will get to the HQ. So why sending troops to Water 7 when they know that the Strawhats already left the island. Remeber thereÂ´s is this little thing called Den Den Mushi. If Iceburg says they are all gone then they should already be alarmed that a huge threat is on their way. And then they can take care of the Strawhats first. After they find out that they arenÂ´t 70 but just 8 people then they have a reason for coming back to Water 7, but until then they donÂ´t have no real need for investigations because the battle preparations are more important at that time moment.

Well, like I said, issuing worldwide wanted posters does not waste time. While a sea-force goes after the Mugiwara's, the administration guys who sit at their desks will issue new bounties, and the newspapers will spread them throughout the world, the same way this has always happened. This is done by people who have nothing to do with an actual pursuit.

Well if that really is how you think then IÂ´m not going to try to change your opinion. I just donÂ´t think that comparing this to the real world works because just as I said, the Grand Line is a one way route. And unlike in Alabasta thereÂ´s not much islands left until they reach the HQ so I really donÂ´t see a need in worldwide wanted posters. I donÂ´t even see a need for wanted posters in Water 7 since the Strawhats already left that island behind and the WG knows it. LetÂ´s just agree to disagree here.

It's the same in the real world really.. even if the cops are after some notorious criminals, there will still be reports about this in the newspapers etc.
I can actually agree here.. but depends on what your definition of "a short amount of time" is. If they go to Water 7 to be safe for a few weeks, then why go back at all? They surely won't be able to resume their old lives for many years..

My definition as "short amount of time" is a variable. ItÂ´s not a fix number of days, weeks, monthÂ´s or years. ItÂ´s that the WG will come to Water 7 when two points apply: 1. They find out that the Strawhats arenÂ´t 70 but 8 people and 2. They finished of Luffy and his men first. That has higher priority because if they waste time on leftovers and lose sight of Luffy he can cause even more damage to the WG.

I agree that they will send a large force over the seas to go after the Straw-hats, probably a Buster Call. But that doesn't mean there is no-one left to do anything else. They can just send a smaller division to apprehend G-La and the FF. That'd be a sound thing to do for many reasons: they can show the world they've already caught some Straw-Hats and question them for leads and information about their captain.

True that it doesnÂ´t mean that thereÂ´s no one left to do anything else, but itÂ´s a matter of how angry or scared the Gorousei will get when they order which team to chase down. As politicians who want to keep their power they canÂ´t waste their power on everything. Remember that thereÂ´s even bigger pirates and one dangerous revolutionist that also needs to be taken care of. And I donÂ´t agree that Dragon hasnÂ´t made any move yet. ItÂ´s just that we didnÂ´t find out because he wasnÂ´t relevant to the story yet. Remember that in Daltons flashback they said that in 5 or 6 years he will have a large amount of followers and can cause serious threat to the WG. And since the flashback was 6 years ago the time is now.
I donÂ´t want to speculate too much about Dragon though, IÂ´m just saying that the WG will focus on the enemy that has a face and more dangerous first. The small fry will be taken care of when the serious threat has been taken care of, thatÂ´s just how I think it is logic.

Again it's the same in the real world. Are the cops only going after the masterminds of a criminal organisation? No, in most cases some of the small fry will be apprehended first. Often because they are easier to capture, because the cops can show they are making progress, because they can question them for leads on the masterminds, etc.

Actually in the real world the cops donÂ´t catch but just observe the small fry in order to get the big fish. Just look at how many drug dealers are let lose on the streets, because the cops hope that with them they will get the big masterminds.

Another thing, even if it isn't the WG going after them, Paulie and all won't be safe on Water 7 once the bounties have been issued. Like I said, those debt collectors could rat Paulie out, some people who have been damaged by the FF (or who simply don't like em) might rat them out for revenge.

You constantly talk about your bounties. So far only two Strawhats had bounties after all they did and out of a sudden you think that each and every small fry will get one. True that it is a big thing what the Strawhats do at Enies Lobby but then again, itÂ´s not like itÂ´s the first time that one of the Strawhats beat down a marine officer. Sanji actually arleady took down small fry in LogueTown and he still doesnÂ´t have a bounty. ItÂ´s not like Oda operates with over exaggerated bounties after all. Actually so far it looks like the way how wanted posters work in the OP is that they just blackmail the captain and the main fighter(s).
Plus it is like I already said above. ThereÂ´s really no need for wanted posters at the moment when the Strawhats leave Water 7 because it is a one way route.

Well, I got the impression from the initial post you made that you assumed G-La and the FF could just go back to W7, resume their old lives and live happily ever after. I'm sorry if this wasn't what you intended to say. But that's why I replied by saying it's folly to go back to Water 7 and stay there, as it's only a matter of time before they get arrested there. A week, a month, a year, who knows? But the time will come. And the difference for me is that while Tom built Roger's ship, Paulie and all have committed direct crimes against the WG by assaulting Enies Lobby, and on top of that they are straw-hats now too. If Tom had actually been a crewmember of Roger, and partaken in an assault against the WG, I doubt it would've taken 10 years for him to get arrested..

Why? I mean if it took so long for them to figure out then it would make sense. They already needed years to figure out that Franky was still alive so why shouldnÂ´t that be the case again? IsnÂ´t there a saying that says that justice works slow but efficient or something like that.

Well another point that I wanted to bring in that I forgot is actually Spandam. Imagine if he really runs renegade on the WG but then gets stopped by the WG. Actually G-L and the Franky Family can use that to create a very good lie. They could say that they knew Spandam planned to go against the WG and that they wanted to stop him even if it meant to invade Enies Lobby. In fact they could say that they had to do it because they knew small fry wouldnÂ´t listen to them or something like that (IÂ´m not good at creating a well developed lie I just try to explain the rough layout).
And they could say that entire CP9 was obedient to Spandam and that they needed the StrawhatÂ´s help to take them down and save the world.

It sounds a bit iffy, but itÂ´s nothing that didnÂ´t happen before. Remember back at Alabasta. Tashigi and her men helped the Strawhats to save the people and the WG does know it. But they didnÂ´t arrest them for that, they even promoted Tashigi, but they kept the truth a secret.
I mean if it all is done like that then both Water 7 and the WG has suffered under the megalomaniac plans of Spandam and the Gorousei know that it is their fault to have given this guy so much power. So maybe it could even be forgiven that Enies Lobby was invaded if the lie is really convincing them that at the moment of invasion, the government officials and marines at EL were actually helping an enemy of the state (Spandam) and thus becoming enemies of the state themselves. G-L and FF could be forgiven because of all suffering that Water 7 went through, but the Strawhats would still be considered as criminals because the world better not find out what really happened there just as it was the case in Alabasta.
I sounds a bit of but itÂ´s not like such a concept was never used in a movie.

No matter how it happens, we should have faith in Oda. I just wanted to elaborate with me entire argumentation that we shouldnÂ´t jump to conclusions and say to fast, that it would be a poor move that he is trying to pull. I am by no means claiming that the theory I made up is how it will happen. But if it should happen somehow like that then you realize that it will take one or two years until all that stuff with the Marine HQ etc will happen. We all know that Oda has incredible foresight in his storytelling and I wouldnÂ´t like to hear for more then a year statements like "but that didnÂ´t make sense" with a "ahh, now it all makes" sense confession that weÂ´ve misjudged him.

Did Oda actually ever disappoint us with his foresight? We shouldnÂ´t just say that something doesnÂ´t make sense just because we donÂ´t see the big picture yet.

wintergt

Ok agreeing to disagree sounds good to me atm =) We'll see what happens..

Jeltz

@Ivotas:

My definition as "short amount of time" is a variable. ItÂ´s not a fix number of days, weeks, monthÂ´s or years. ItÂ´s that the WG will come to Water 7 when two points apply: 1. They find out that the Strawhats arenÂ´t 70 but 8 people and 2. They finished of Luffy and his men first. That has higher priority because if they waste time on leftovers and lose sight of Luffy he can cause even more damage to the WG.

I agree with most things you said but one thing I totally disagree with. I think that they still can come after Paulie and the FF even if the actual Strwhats has a higher priority. They can't just concentrate on the Strawhats forever. They have to worry about other threats to the goverment too and then they should remember the guys who did help the Strawhats. It will take some time but it's quite unlikly that the marines never will figure out who they were or put them on extrememly low priority forever. I say that either one of those two is enough. Both are not necessarily needed to be true at the same time for the marines to act.

This doesn't say much about what Paulie and the Franky Family will do after this arc other than that even if the marines doesn't come after them at once they will have to worry about the marines for many years if they don't somehow manage to get pardoned (in perhaps a deal with Iceburg).

Ivotas

@Jeltz:

I agree with most things you said but one thing I totally disagree with. I think that they still can come after Paulie and the FF even if the actual Strwhats has a higher priority. They can't just concentrate on the Strawhats forever. They have to worry about other threats to the goverment too and then they should remember the guys who did help the Strawhats. It will take some time but it's quite unlikly that the marines never will figure out who they were or put them on extrememly low priority forever. I say that either one of those two is enough. Both are not necessarily needed to be true at the same time for the marines to act.

YouÂ´re actually not disagreeing with me because I said myself that if they manage to deal with the Strawhats, they will start tracking down the small fry that helped them causing so much trouble.

But the real question is whether or not the WG will ever be able to finish the Strawhats off or not. ThereÂ´s this one character Dragon that wants to overcome the WG, the sole fact that he is a revolutionist and the meaning behind that word indicate that. And I seriously doubt that Oda introduced him just for never seeing him again.
Then thereÂ´s this thing with Whitebeard and Shanks who also could cause serious trouble to the WG.

What you say itÂ´s true that they canÂ´t concentrate on the Strawhats forever. But the question is, how long will the WG actually still be in charge. The Strawhats already are taking down the most important outpost of the WG. ItÂ´s not like the Strawhats would never oppose the WG directly. Who knows what else they will do on the quest for the top.
IÂ´m not saying that Luffy wants to take down the Marine HQ or Maryjoa itself because he is destructive. But then he isnÂ´t attacking Enies Lobby because of that either. He does it to save a friend. Who tells us that the WG wonÂ´t bring Luffy in another position where he has to march at the Marine HQ or the Holy Land? He is on the way to become Pirate King, so the WG will put many obstacles in his way. Especially after this arc. ItÂ´s not to unlikely to happen.

You are right, they canÂ´t concentrate on the Strawhats forever. But tracking down the small fry actually only makes sense to happen once the "head of the snake" has been taken care of. And a crew that takes down Enies Lobby and quests for the top is a very dangerous "snake" in the eyes of the WG. Therefore Paulie etc. should be safe until the Strawhats have been dealt with, if the WG ever succeeds in dealing with them.

wintergt

@Ivotas:

YouÂ´re actually not disagreeing with me because I said myself that if they manage to deal with the Strawhats, they will start tracking down the small fry that helped them causing so much trouble.

From how I understand his post he was saying that he doesn't believe the head of the snake has to be dealt with (as you like to put it) before they go after Paulie & friends. If I was the WG, I'd send a buster call after the straw-hats on the sea, and as soon as I'd hear that Paulie, the other Galley-La boys and the FF are on Water 7, I'd send Ao Kiji and a whole team to apprehend them asap. For a meriad of reasons really:

I'd simply want to punish everyone who was involved in the EL raid asap, regardless of who the boss was
There's no need to shadow them to capture Luffy or something like that.. such things are only required when you don't know who the boss is or when you need to collect evidence against them. That is not necessary here, so there's no reason to delay to arrest.
It's easier to capture them than Luffy
To interrogate them where Luffy is going
It can give leverage to blackmail/pressure Luffy
Probably the most important reason of all: To show strength to the world. They just took a major dent by having Enies Lobby raided. Major loss of face. Being able to exclaim they just caught over 50 Straw-Hats would be an awesome way to restore some of that damage. Showing weakness is dangerous, this would be an ideal way to show they're still strong and capable to act quickly

Ivotas

I know what youÂ´re saying jack, but that wouldnÂ´t make sense. You base your statements by the fact that the Strawhats will be defeated by the Buster Call but that has yet to remain to be true.
And sending Aokiji to Water 7 for Paulie (small fry) while the BC gets the Strawhats (big fish) is just dead wrong. Aokiji, Akainu, Kizaru and Sengoku are the masters of the Buster Call. Why should the pimp daddyÂ´s catch the small fry while the strong but still subordinates go for the head of the snake? Just doesnÂ´t make sense.

DidnÂ´t you say for yourself that what is happening at Enies Lobby is the biggest thing in years? Would you really split your forces when you are thinking that all the responsible invaders are coming your way? I know I wouldnÂ´t.

Plus Water 7 itself has suffered damages to the WGÂ´s doing. What do you think how much of losing face that would mean to the WG worldwide if that ever becomes common knowledge. This is a much bigger loss of face then when they would just confess that they were defeated.
When it becomes common knowledge that the Strawhats destroyed Enies Lobby then the WG actually looks like a victim and the Strawhats as the bad guys. Good propaganda for the Gorousei.
If it becomes common knowledge that the WG assasinated Iceburg and kills everybody that doesnÂ´t cooperate with them then this is a devastating loss of face and could even lead to rebellions or revolutions. And Iceburg now has the power to put them under pressure. You know why I think so, so letÂ´s not repeat that.

wintergt

@Ivotas:

I know what youÂ´re saying jack, but that wouldnÂ´t make sense. You base your statements by the fact that the Strawhats will be defeated by the Buster Call but that has yet to remain to be true.

Well, all that matters here is that the WG thinks that a Buster Call should be enough to get rid of the Straw-Hats. Send Akainu or Kizaru with the BC and the mugiwara's - in theory - won't stand a chance anyway.

And sending Aokiji to Water 7 for Paulie (small fry) while the BC gets the Strawhats (big fish) is just dead wrong. Aokiji, Akainu, Kizaru and Sengoku are the masters of the Buster Call. Why should the pimp daddyÂ´s catch the small fry while the strong but still subordinates go for the head of the snake? Just doesnÂ´t make sense.

Well, to me it does.. it's quick anyway (chasing Luffy might take months, apprehending Paulie et all on W7 could be done in less than a week) and like I said it's very much needed to save face. Showing the weakness they just did by losing Enies Lobby="we're weak, anyone who wants to move in on us, go right ahead".. capturing 50+ straw-hats and showing this to the world="think again, we're still strong!"

Well, that's the way I reason in these kinds of situations anyway :laugh:

DidnÂ´t you say for yourself that what is happening at Enies Lobby is the biggest thing in years? Would you really split your forces when you are thinking that all the responsible invaders are coming your way? I know I wouldnÂ´t.

Well, since Ao Kiji alone totally whooped the floor with them, I wouldn't be too worried if I sicked a BC+a supreme general on them.

Ivotas

@jackvance:

Well, all that matters here is that the WG thinks that a Buster Call should be enough to get rid of the Straw-Hats. Send Akainu or Kizaru with the BC and the mugiwara's - in theory - won't stand a chance anyway.
Well, to me it does.. it's quick anyway (chasing Luffy might take months, apprehending Paulie et all on W7 could be done in less than a week) and like I said it's very much needed to save face. Showing the weakness they just did by losing Enies Lobby="we're weak, anyone who wants to move in on us, go right ahead".. capturing 50+ straw-hats and showing this to the world="think again, we're still strong!"

WeÂ´re constantly moving in circles donÂ´t you see that jack? How many times do I have to repeat it, the WG right now sees the Strawhats as one large group that should be taken care of. If they find out via Den Den Mushi or whatsoever that the Strawhats arenÂ´t at Water 7 anymore, they will think that the whole group that attacked Water 7 is gone.
Of course theyÂ´ll find out that it is just 8 persons when they see it with their own eyes, but until that happens Paulie etc. shouldnÂ´t be touched. And seriously Oda is a genius, he will make sure that once the WG finds out that the SH are still a small crew the WG will have much more serious business with them then to waste a time on the small fry. I mean does Hina hunt the small fry before or after Crocodile and the main guys were arrested? Get what I mean?

Paulie etc. should be safe until the WG finds out the true number of the SH. And who knows what serious situation we have then when they find out.

Well, since Ao Kiji alone totally whooped the floor with them, I wouldn't be too worried if I sicked a BC+a supreme general on them.

Err, there is none of the Three Admirals on the Buster Call since the BC can be controlled by Spandam and Aokiji (one of the three) gave him the authoroty to use it. So unless of course you believe that Aokiji gave Spandam the authority to control even him there is no reason to think that Aokiji, Akainu or Kizaru will be part of the Buster Call.

Remember, Sengoku and the big three are the pimp daddyÂ´s of the Buster Call. So if Aokiji whooped the Strawhats ass it doesnÂ´t mean that the BC can do the same since the SH and the BC are both inferior to Kiji.

BTW, why was there no reply to my last paragraph of my post, since IÂ´ve tried to counter your most important point there? <_<

wintergt

@Ivotas:

WeÂ´re constantly moving in circles donÂ´t you see that jack? How many times do I have to repeat it, the WG right now sees the Strawhats as one large group that should be taken care of. If they find out via Den Den Mushi or whatsoever that the Strawhats arenÂ´t at Water 7 anymore, they will think that the whole group that attacked Water 7 is gone.

Well I'm ofcourse talking about after they find out the straw-hats are just 8 people sailing the seas. At this point the WG has already sent let's say Kizaru and a BC after them. But as soon as they somehow receive a report that Paulie is still on W7 (this is bound to happen), I'd send some big guns there to ensure a swift arrest, like I said, to save face in front of the world, to have leverage to pressure the straw-hats, to interrogate them, etc.

I mean does Hina hunt the small fry before or after Crocodile and the main guys were arrested? Get what I mean?

Different situation, Croc was a respected Shichibukai at the head of a bounty hunters organisation until Luffy blew his cover =)

Paulie etc. should be safe until the WG finds out the true number of the SH. And who knows what serious situation we have then when they find out.

That is speculation my dear friend Ivotas sure something else might be going on then, but that's not a given at all.

Err, there is none of the Three Admirals on the Buster Call since the BC can be controlled by Spandam and Aokiji (one of the three) gave him the authoroty to use it. So unless of course you believe that Aokiji gave Spandam the authority to control even him there is no reason to think that Aokiji, Akainu or Kizaru will be part of the Buster Call.

Given the graveness of the situation, I'd imagine either the gourousei or Sengoku himself issuing the BC and they have control over the supreme generals too.

BTW, why was there no reply to my last paragraph of my post, since IÂ´ve tried to counter your most important point there? <_<

Well if you must know =).. I didn't really see the relevance.. I can agree they will leave Iceburg alone, but not Paulie and everyone who partook in the EL assault.

Polygon

Remember while an assualt on eneis lobby is serious, it's not the most serious thing you can do. Didn't Spandam say that eneis lobby are the first steps to the world government?

wintergt

@Octogon:

Remember while an assualt on eneis lobby is serious, it's not the most serious thing you can do. Didn't Spandam say that eneis lobby are the first steps to the world government?

Well.. doing anything more serious would be actually overthrowing the WG/marines, so I'd say leveling Enies Lobby is pretty serious already

Ivotas

@jackvance:

That is speculation my dear friend Ivotas sure something else might be going on then, but that's not a given at all.

Of all youÂ´ve said this statement is the one I have the biggest problem with. What do you mean to achieve by saying that? Everything here is speculation. ArenÂ´t we arguing what possible ways there are on how Paulie, Lulu, Tileston, Zanbai, the Square Sisters and all the rest could still remain on Water 7 without being bothered by the WG???

This whole argument started because you said that youÂ´d be disappointed if there wonÂ´t be a good explenation on how that could happen and I just try to think of possible explenations. Of course they are speculations. That is the very purpose of everything. What do you take my words else for? For official spoilers from a guy who knows Oda?

Of course I have to jump to conclusions and make up theories because at the present moment we are at the manga I canÂ´t do anything else. What else do you expect if not speculations? IÂ´m not Oda you know.

@jackvance:

Given the graveness of the situation, I'd imagine either the gourousei or Sengoku himself issuing the BC and they have control over the supreme generals too.

I think I have to explain it like this: Gorousei > Sengoku> Aokiji/Akainu/Kizaru > Spandam > Buster Call.

Therefore there is no way that neither Aokiji nor Akainu nor Kizaru will be on the Buster Call since Spandam will be the one in charge of it.

Polygon

@jackvance:

Well.. doing anything more serious would be actually overthrowing the WG/marines, so I'd say leveling Enies Lobby is pretty serious already

I never said it wasn't serious, just not the most serious thing. If eneis lobby are the first steps to the WG then there must be other more important that the government must care more about. And you don't have to do it directly to be considered a threat. We don't know enoughf about the OP world to say anytrhing more serious would be over-throwing the WG directly, though it very well might be.

wintergt

@Ivotas:

Of all youÂ´ve said this statement is the one I have the biggest problem with. What do you mean to achieve by saying that? Everything here is speculation. ArenÂ´t we arguing what possible ways there are on how Paulie, Lulu, Tileston, Zanbai, the Square Sisters and all the rest could still remain on Water 7 without being bothered by the WG???

Ah that's where we went wrong XD I wasn't trying to do that, I was just trying to look at "most likely" scenario's. Well ofcourse Oda can make a crazy twist of fate happen that allows them to be safe on W7. Dragon shows up, overthrows the WG and bam it's done. But I was just trying to follow the most logical chain of events after the Enies Lobby assault, in which case Paulie et all seem pretty much screwed if they just go back to their old life.

I think I have to explain it like this: Gorousei > Sengoku> Aokiji/Akainu/Kizaru > Spandam > Buster Call.

Therefore there is no way that neither Aokiji nor Akainu nor Kizaru will be on the Buster Call since Spandam will be the one in charge of it.

Well the way it made most sense to me was that the BC is something that can be issued only by the people who have clearance for it, this being Ao Kiji, Akainu, Kizaru, and those above them in the chain of command: Sengoku and the gourousei. What Ao Kiji did was in a unique instance give Spandam the power to issue a Buster Call. Ofcourse should Sengoku issue a BC himself, he'll be the one "in charge", and he can put someone who is lower than him in charge too, like Kizaru. Spandam has nothing to do with it in this case since he's not the one issuing it. (it'd be pretty weird if a lower ranked person can just "hijack" the power of his superiors wouldn't it?) Besides, his powers will get revoked anyway once he gets his ass kicked =)

I never said it wasn't serious, just not the most serious thing. If eneis lobby are the first steps to the WG then there must be other more important that the government must care more about. And you don't have to do it directly to be considered a threat. We don't know enoughf about the OP world to say anytrhing more serious would be over-throwing the WG directly, though it very well might be.

Well Enies Lobby leads to Impel Down and the marine HQ right? So if you are to continu on, you'd either be freeing all the prisoners the marines have ever made, or you'd be wrecking their HQ which is pretty much GG marines. Atleast that's what it looks like in my limited view of the OP world.

btw what's up with all those smilies?.. a clever way to put people's minds at peace and avoid being flamed or something? :laugh:

Ivotas

@jackvance:

Ah that's where we went wrong XD I wasn't trying to do that, I was just trying to look at "most likely" scenario's. Well ofcourse Oda can make a crazy twist of fate happen that allows them to be safe on W7. Dragon shows up, overthrows the WG and bam it's done. But I was just trying to follow the most logical chain of events after the Enies Lobby assault, in which case Paulie et all seem pretty much screwed if they just go back to their old life.

But what I say isnÂ´t illogic. It might be unlikely buy your point of view but not impossible. And IÂ´m just trying to think of possibilities how the problem can be avoided. IÂ´m not saying that it will be like that since IÂ´m not a mastermind like Oda. If I would be that brilliant I would do my own manga.
IÂ´m just throwing in guesses which I think are possible to happen. Saying that they are speculative is totally unnecessary because everything that comes from anyone besides Oda is a speculation.

Well the way it made most sense to me was that the BC is something that can be issued only by the people who have clearance for it, this being Ao Kiji, Akainu, Kizaru, and those above them in the chain of command: Sengoku and the gourousei. What Ao Kiji did was in a unique instance give Spandam the power to issue a Buster Call. Ofcourse should Sengoku issue a BC himself, he'll be the one "in charge", and he can put someone who is lower than him in charge too, like Kizaru. Spandam has nothing to do with it in this case since he's not the one issuing it. (it'd be pretty weird if a lower ranked person can just "hijack" the power of his superiors wouldn't it?) Besides, his powers will get revoked anyway once he gets his ass kicked =)

Well I think that we will see only one Buster Call in One Piece, because if you throw in more then just one, then it becomes boring, repetative and whatÂ´s most important it loses itÂ´s appeal and status.
And since IÂ´m convinced that we will see only one, IÂ´m sure that the Buster Call weÂ´ll see will be the one Spandam has the authority to control (because he has the right to do it) and therefore I donÂ´t think that any of SpandamÂ´s own superiors will be in it.

And as far as what the WG can launch at the Strawhats next after the BC has been taken care of, IÂ´d say itÂ´ll be Doflamingo.

ThereÂ´s really no need to elaborate on this because it is higher speculative then anything else and it would be pointless to debate this thing over since none neither that it is true nor false can be proven wrong. I just wanted to throw it in here to be mentioned at least once. Just let it stay as it is, weÂ´ll see whether I was right or wrong once we get there.

So my very bold prediction for something thatÂ´s going to happen in the not too distant future is, that the next big thing that the Strawhats will encounter after the Buster Call will be Doflamingo at the Marine HQ and I even dare to say that after his defeat Luffy will get his new bounty and not after Enies Lobby.

I know itÂ´s a very whack statement but hey, itÂ´s not like IÂ´m going to kill myself if it is completely and utterly wrong. So just let it be here and leave it alone for until it gets proven either right or wrong.

Soupster

"Quote" 'Ivotas'
IÂ´m sure that the Buster Call weÂ´ll see will be the one Spandam has the authority to control (because he has the right to do it) and therefore I donÂ´t think that any of SpandamÂ´s own superiors will be in it."

Where exactly did we hear that he had the athority to use a Buster Call, he could be bluffing. Also, just because he can doesn't mean that he will. After all, Spandam likely thinks that CP9 will be able to defeat the Strawhats and thus won't use the Buster Call until it is too late.

I was afraid the first part would detract from my main point which is just whether Spandam will be able to activate the Buster Call after being defeated.

Polygon

@Soupster:

"Quote" 'Ivotas'
IÂ´m sure that the Buster Call weÂ´ll see will be the one Spandam has the authority to control (because he has the right to do it) and therefore I donÂ´t think that any of SpandamÂ´s own superiors will be in it."

Where exactly did we hear that he had the athority to use a Buster Call, he could be bluffing. Also, just because he can doesn't mean that he will. After all, Spandam likely thinks that CP9 will be able to defeat the Strawhats and thus won't use the Buster Call until it is too late.

That's not the point. I very highly dought that he is bluffing, he wouln't be that stupid. Even if he issues it after CP9 is defeated it's still a force to be reakon with. I mean any ship that usually needs manning if the admirals must be pretty powerful and fast.

Ivotas

@Soupster:

Where exactly did we hear that he had the athority to use a Buster Call, he could be bluffing. Also, just because he can doesn't mean that he will. After all, Spandam likely thinks that CP9 will be able to defeat the Strawhats and thus won't use the Buster Call until it is too late.

He said it in chapter 365. He was clearly talking to himself (and maybe to Frankfried) there so there is no need for a bluff unless of course you think heÂ´s bluffing himself.

Besides I would be really surprised if it would be a bluff because that would be among the cheapest way on how Robin could return to the Strawhats if thereÂ´s no Buster Call she has to fear.

Polygon

@Ivotas:

He said it in chapter 365. He was clearly talking to himself (and maybe to Frankfried) there so there is no need for a bluff unless of course you think heÂ´s bluffing himself.

Besides I would be really surprised if it would be a bluff because that would be among the cheapest way on how Robin could return to the Strawhats if thereÂ´s no Buster Call she has to fear.

Exactly. Also the other members of CP9 knew about it to, and they say it's real.