Arlong Park Forums

And my point is that 2-1 is meaningless, it's who wins in the end.

@Blackbeard fanboy
That makes no sense why would the espada be stronger on the ground when it does the cutting, not the ground?

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense, unless Oda has some rule Crocodile didn't mention, but the fact is that the Spadas were clearly different from the 1st round (and second) to the 3rd round.
There was really no explanation why Desert Spada was weaker on midair, maybe because Crocodile was in a disadvantages position?

junte86

And my point is that 2-1 is meaningless it's who wins in the end.

@Blackbeard fanboy
That makes no sense why would the espada be stronger on the ground when it does the cutting not the ground?

than why did you brough all this meaningless round 2 argument, I agree in the end Luffy won, I just did not like the way you argued Croc would have lost round 2.

brennen.exe

@Thousand:

Just read what Stephen translated it as. That's end all to translation arguments.

You know the irony to this post? Well, first I should mention that it is responding seriously to a sarcastic post, but the real irony is that the "translation argument" started with Stephen's translation.

HaxeyeMihawk

than why did you brough all this meaningless round 2 argument, I agree in the end Luffy won, I just did not like the way you argued Croc would have lost round 2.

I was just pointing out how the muppets were making it sound like Croc wtfpwned Luffy in round 2 when essentially his winning attack wasn't even a direct attack on Luffy but more so the environment.

junte86

You do understand that if Croc touches the ground in the Marine HQ he will turn the battle area into dust.

umm this can only happen when Croc trained his ablilty to the point of being equal to WB.
AT his current strength he cant do this, he can do this now… well we have the final boss of One piece, anyway Aokiji can still freeze the ocean and smoker can beat Croc with his all-mighty sea stone weapon.

Jadosra

I think I know why the Mihawk Fanboy hates me so much.
He thinks I'm a Crocodile fanboy.
For shame…

dirt monkey AL

You do understand that if Croc touches the ground in the Marine HQ he will turn the battle area into dust.

Jadosra

@dirt:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/Alastair918/2mg4j8z.gif

One of the best gifs EVAH

wolfwood

So this whole Croc oneshots everyone by turning everything to dust plan seems to hinge alot on the rest of the players just standing around twiddling their thumbs. Think i spotted the flaw in that plan.

Jadosra

But no one disagrees with you, dirt monkey AL

I agree that Crocodile is a fucking dumbass and an arrogant prick.
The only thing I'm saying is that if they fought Mano a Mano without any outside interference, Luffy would have died even if it was in round 3, because Crocodile wouldn't underestimate him.

Is it that hard to believe that Luffy managed to defeat Crocodile because of his amazing willpower but also because of Crocodile's underestimation? I mean, its the rule 1 of Shonens, isn't it?
Crocodile is stronger than Luffy, Luffy surpassed Crocodile and beat the shit out of him through the roof, however, Oda, being the writer he is, made it logic to put Luffy defeating Crocodile even though Crocodile is stronger than Luffy.

Geez, why exactly does everyone argue against the above point? Its not like Luffy's weak if he needed underestimation from Crocodile, it doesn't change the fact that without Willpower, no one would have survived even one round against Crocodile.
So, really, why do all the Luffy fans (excluding myself) suddenly argue against me just because I argue that Crocodile, one of the 7 pirates strong enough to do whatever the fuck they want with just one condition: Participating in a important event, is stronger than Luffy, a man that's still growing?

GEEEEEEEEEEZ

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense, unless Oda has some rule Crocodile didn't mention, but the fact is that the Spadas were clearly different from the 1st round (and second) to the 3rd round.
There was really no explanation why Desert Spada was weaker on midair, maybe because Crocodile was in a disadvantages position?

Just waiting for an answer.
Or does this mean that you guys agree with me for the first time?

HaxeyeMihawk

I think I know why the Mihawk Fanboy hates me so much.
He thinks I'm a Crocodile fanboy.
For shame…

No it's just that you're stubborn and like to argue nonexistent points in 5000 word essays. Oh and constantly calling me a fanboy doesn't help either :P.

GaaraofTheDesert

He used his power in his second fight against Luffy. He turned the huge area on Vivi's palace into dust. We also dont know if he used his power at his most. So Luffy being stronger than him just know is only based on what we saw. I think the Shichibukai are pretty much on the same level, Mihawk and Blackbeard seem a bit stronger than the rest.

Jadosra

I'l get to the point in a few words, then:

-Luffy is fucking strong
-Luffy's will is stronger than Crocodile's will
-Crocodile is an arrogant prick
-Crocodile has an hax fruit
-Luffy understood the weakness of the hax fruit.

-Crocodile's underestimation + Weakness known + Luffy's amazing spirit = Crocodile owned

-Crocodile not underestimating = Luffy probably not even knowing Crocodile's weakness (even if he knew, Crocodile would most likely win) + Luffy's amazing will = Luffy owned

-I have no arguments between Luffy VS Crocodile at the moment, so I'l shut up about that subject.

And, this one is optional:

-Luffy is a rookie that is aknowledged by the World Government.
-The Shichibukais are free to do whatever they want without the marines going against them, and the only thing they have to do in response is to participate in a important battle.

Do you agree or disagree?

brennen.exe

The only thing I'm saying is that if they fought Mano a Mano without any outside interference, Luffy would have died even if it was in round 3, because Crocodile wouldn't underestimate him.

If this is your argument, then you need to take the "Croc > Luffy" out of your title and location. Seriously. This is your opinion. Underestimating someone does not mean taking free hits and getting your ass kicked. Yes, Croc was being arrogant the whole time and didn't acknowledge Luffy's strength until the very last fight, but that doesn't mean he was letting Luffy beat the crap out of him. In fight two, every hit was Luffy's, and there were a fair amount of hits. Prior to the "win", Croc grabbed Luffy once and dried out Luffy's arm, but Luffy drank some water real quick and everything was back to normal. Even then, Luffy was still getting used to fighting Croc, thus his follow up statement, "I almost forgot about that!" Plain and simple, were it not for Croc being on the top of a building he could erode away, he wouldn't have been able to grab Luffy by the neck the way he did.

I mean, if you consider that Luffy fights with his hands and feet, that all of Croc's logia attacks are mid/long range blades, his left hand is a giant hook (poisoned one), his right hand is instant death, and that he can phase any attack that doesn't have moisture to it…who has the upper hand? Crocodile, by Devil's Fruit alone, has an extreme advantage. And yet in both round two and three Luffy goes almost untouched while handing out a major ass kicking. As far as skill, speed, and physical power goes, Luffy is clearly superior. As far as Devil's Fruit ability goes, Crocodile is superior. Luffy won, the narrative forces that point, and we should keep that in mind as the story continues. Not "by luck", but by growth, skill, and determination.

HaxeyeMihawk

Just waiting for an answer.
Or does this mean that you guys agree with me for the first time?

Luffy also wasn't pissed enough to try to punch through a spada before, Luffy didn't just punch through 1, he punched through 4. Who knows if he could've done it sooner, just remember his fists were wet, so that could've made a difference. It definitely WASN'T due to it being in the air.

junte86

He used his power in his second fight against Luffy. He turned the huge area on Vivi's palace into dust. We also dont know if he used his power at his most. So Luffy being stronger than him just know is only based on what we saw. I think the Shichibukai are pretty much on the same level, Mihawk and Blackbeard seem a bit stronger than the rest.

First he stated that turning the palace was not an easy task, of course because this is different compared to Enel or Ace or Kizaru, or even Aokiji.
Turning everything in to sand will be way overpowered if he can turn an island in to dust… why do he need an ancient weapon? only WB has shown such mastery of his power at this point...

and at least Kizaru and Aokiji is not affected by island turning in to dust... the nature of gorund death is more like creating a desert which will increase crocs battle power, (maxim) but its not an ultimate attack... and it drains croc's power, so its a last resort kind of thing

Jadosra

If this is your argument, then you need to take the "Croc > Luffy" out of your title and location. Seriously. This is your opinion. Underestimating someone does not mean taking free hits and getting your ass kicked. Yes, Croc was being arrogant the whole time and didn't acknowledge Luffy's strength until the very last fight, but that doesn't mean he was letting Luffy beat the crap out of him. In fight two, every hit was Luffy's, and there were a fair amount of hits. Prior to the "win", Croc grabbed Luffy once and dried out Luffy's arm, but Luffy drank some water real quick and everything was back to normal. Even then, Luffy was still getting used to fighting Croc, thus his follow up statement, "I almost forgot about that!" Plain and simple, were it not for Croc being on the top of a building he could erode away, he wouldn't have been able to grab Luffy by the neck the way he did.

I mean, if you consider that Luffy fights with his hands and feet, that all of Croc's logia attacks are mid/long range blades, his left hand is a giant hook (poisoned one), his right hand is instant death, and that he can phase any attack that doesn't have moisture to it…who has the upper hand? Crocodile, by Devil's Fruit alone, has an extreme advantage. And yet in both round two and three Luffy goes almost untouched while handing out a major ass kicking. As far as skill, speed, and physical power goes, Luffy is clearly superior. As far as Devil's Fruit ability goes, Crocodile is superior. Luffy won, the narrative forces that point, and we should keep that in mind as the story continues. Not "by luck", but by growth, skill, and determination.

I agree with this.
The whole point of my argument is that Crocodile would defeat Luffy if he didn't underestimate him.

I mean, even in Round 3, while he was getting a lot of hits, he was underestimating him, this was clear by his monologue, his smiles in the middle of the combat and his arrogance by not using his powers of the Devil Fruit.

And no, his power isn't just "Long Range Blades", he can do whatever the hell he wants, he can create sand and control it, he's just not made of sand.
He could create a sandstorm strong enough to break the temple and get out of there, so why didn't he do it?

Again, because of the situation and the context where he was.

Like I said before, Luffy's will is stronger than Crocodile, and the only reason why Crocodile is stronger overall than Luffy is because of being a lucky bastard when finding a fruit on a random spot (altough, he needed to train it to get those powers to that level)

I'l be honest, I like Luffy more than I like Crocodile (Yeah, I said it), but I just can't see Luffy as strong as the Shichibukai at the moment, not only because it would kinda suck a little, but because Oda made it pretty clear that it Luffy, along with his will, had luck.

GaaraofTheDesert

Whatever, you can still argue that Crocodile is weaker than Luffy, in the end of the war we ll see when Croc takes WB's head. One thing is sure Oda didnt bring him back for no reason.

Jadosra

Whatever, you can still argue that Crocodile is weaker than Luffy in the end of the War, when Croc will take WB's head. One thing is sure Oda didnt bring him back for no reason.

It would be fucking awful if Crocodile took Whitebeard's head.
Crocodile is pretty much here because of Fanservice, I don't believe he will do something actually useful in this war, much like Luffy.

brennen.exe

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense, unless Oda has some rule Crocodile didn't mention. There was really no explanation why Desert Spada was weaker on midair, maybe because Crocodile was in a disadvantages position?

Well, when the sand gets wet, or Croc himself gets wet, he can no longer control/manipulate the (wet) sand. Since Luffy's hand was wet, and was hitting the sand blade that was being 100% controlled by Croc, it lost its compressed blade-like shape Since Croc could no longer control wet sand, it could not maintain its shape (and threat).

junte86

It would be fucking awful if Crocodile took Whitebeard's head.
Crocodile is pretty much here because of Fanservice, I don't believe he will do something actually useful in this war, much like Luffy.

umm althuogh I dont think Croc will getting Wb;s head, but I think his reappearance is much more than a fanservice, the way he has come back… it seems to me that he will form an interesting relationship with Luffy or who knows, but Its not just a fanservice.

Jadosra

Well, when the sand gets wet, or Croc himself gets wet, he can no longer control/manipulate sand. Since Luffy's hand was wet, and was hitting the sand blade that was being 100% controlled by Croc, it lost its compressed blade-like shape once it got wet, since Croc could no longer control wet sand.

Nop, the only thing water/bloods does is not allow Crocodile to turn into Sand.
He can still control it very easily.
But maybe, due to the wetness in Luffy's hand, Crocodile's strenght at the moment and the fact that he had to do the Spadas as quickly as possible before getting a storm in the face, Luffy managed to break them and punch Crocodile in the face.

umm althuogh I dont think Croc will getting Wb;s head, but I think his reappearance is much more than a fanservice, the way he has come back… it seems to me that he will form an interesting relationship with Luffy or who knows, but Its not just a fanservice.

A relationship with Luffy is a little far-fetched, but I wouldn't mind him continuing the whole feud with Jinbei

junte86

Well, when the sand gets wet, or Croc himself gets wet, he can no longer control/manipulate the (wet) sand. Since Luffy's hand was wet, and was hitting the sand blade that was being 100% controlled by Croc, it lost its compressed blade-like shape Since Croc could no longer control wet sand, it could not maintain its shape (and threat).

I am not sure this is the case with spada being broken… Unless Oda states this I think it was more about Luffy overwhelming the power of la spada

brennen.exe

@Jadosra:

Nope, the only thing water/bloods does is not allow Crocodile to turn into Sand.

@junte86:

Unless Oda states this I think it was more about Luffy overwhelming the power of la spada

So then you both believe that Croc can manipulate and control wet sand?

wolfwood

In my eyes Croc is here to bring some fanservice by clearing the way through no-names and then be used as a sacrificial lamb to build up one of the future opponents.

GaaraofTheDesert

Croc is a smart guy, he wont attack WB directly, he will just wait till the right moment when WB will be exhausted. He could even help him, and doublecross him after the fight.

junte86

So then you both believe that Croc can manipulate and control wet sand?

He already fired the la spada so I doubt controll and manipulation was needed after he fired it, and the blood in luffys hand was not enought to make all the la spada wet or whatever.. I am just thinking the part when ever the sand gets wet it loses all the power notion is little far-fetched.
in that theory croc right hand should not be able to absorb water, since the instance he touches it he cant use his power.

Big_Bad_Lith

@wolfwood:

In my eyes Croc is here to bring some fanservice by clearing the way through no-names and then be used as a sacrificial lamb to build up one of the future opponents.

this^^^^^^^^

Every character is only as strong as Oda says they are. The only reason Moria is back in action is to be fodder for some other big name, and Crocodile is likely going down like that as well. Like how Oda brought back Oz/Oars (in a way) only to use him to showcase others' power.

brennen.exe

I am just thinking the part when ever the sand gets wet it loses all the power notion is little far-fetched.

Well we know for fact he cannot become sand when wet, so it should go without saying that he cannot control wet sand. If I packed a bunch of sand into blade-like shape and threw it at a wall, would it slice a hole in the wall? No, the sand would disperse, and the wind resistance and wall would stop most of the sand in its tracks. In order for Croc's attacks to remain powerful, sharp, and whole, he would need to be controlling them constantly. Well, so says real world logic. It might not need to make sense in the manga, but if so, just accept that Luffy's punch made it disperse, as neither makes logical sense.

In that theory croc right hand should not be able to absorb water, since the instance he touches it he cant use his power.

It doesn't, simply due to the fact that his right arm was given a "special power" that made it unique. If his body is wet, he cannot control sand. His right hand doesn't control sand though, and instead removes moisture. So, it still works. Really, the main problem is that this is a fictional story that is subject to technicalities and other errors.

HaxeyeMihawk

Also an argument for why Croc couldn't go about using every sand attack he had round 3 isn't because he'd necessarily autopwn Luffy if he did. Imo the reason storywise for Oda avoiding it is because after seeing it in two previous fights it would get old and secondly it has to with where they are at.

Remember that the fight occurred underground and it wasn't just Luffy and Croc, Robin and Cobra were there too. Croc actually did use virtually all of his sand attacks save for those that effect the environment. Now with Robin and Cobra present and immobile, if Croc were to make a quicksand pit it could very well get Robin and Cobra but not necessarily Luffy, if he used ground death it could possibly weaken the passage they were in a cause a cave in and kill Robin and Cobra but wouldn't guarantee a kill when it comes to Luffy. So those are other possible reasons for Oda avoiding it.

junte86

If I packed a bunch of sand into blade-like shape and threw it at a wall, would it slice a hole in the wall? No, the sand would disperse, and the wind resistance and wall would stop most of the sand in its tracks.

About this part, I think the reason Desert spada is so strong is not because of its shape but its speed when it is fired granting it the cutting power croc has shown in his battle.

GaaraofTheDesert

@wolfwood:

In my eyes Croc is here to bring some fanservice by clearing the way through no-names and then be used as a sacrificial lamb to build up one of the future opponents.

Croc is not the idiot who will go after the no-names. This sounds completely not like Crocodile. He will go after the King .

HaxeyeMihawk

This post is deleted!

Jadosra

Also an argument for why Croc couldn't go about using every sand attack he had round 3 isn't because he'd necessarily autopwn Luffy if he did. Imo the reason storywise for Oda avoiding it is because after seeing it in two previous fights it would get old and secondly it has to with where they are at.

Remember that the fight occurred underground and it wasn't just Luffy and Croc, Robin and Cobra were there too. Croc actually did use virtually all of his sand attacks save for those that effect the environment. Now with Robin and Cobra present and immobile, if Croc were to make a quicksand pit it could very well get Robin and Cobra but not necessarily Luffy, if he used ground death it could possibly weaken the passage they were in a cause a cave in and kill Robin and Cobra but wouldn't guarantee a kill when it comes to Luffy. So those are other possible reasons for Oda avoiding it.

Well, we really can't argue with each others in this subject, because its really a question of opinions, and not facts.

I do seriously believe that the Shichibukais are stronger than Luffy.
You guys do not.

No matter how much we argue, we get to the same point in the end of every single discussion.

Its kinda annoying, tbh

Warfare

Oda will not make Luffy to silly release the man that will take the life of WB (The man on the same "side" as Luffy) we know that at the end Buggy and Croc will indirectly help Luffy's cause, BB will be the one that take WB, maybe before sandman even get closer to Newgate (It's not like the marines will ask on wich side is a fugitive that is with Luffy and Jimbei)

And by the 3rd round ¿Didn't Croc said he accept Luffy as a dangerous enemy? IMHO if Croc decide to use the poison hook rather than his sand attacks was because precisely those attacks already fail to kill the man 2 times, a true underestimation will be hoping that the same tricks work on a enemy 3 times before he coud do something about it…

silvers

And my point was that Luffy had shown that he was nearly able to beat Croc in round 2 but people insist on saying "2-1" when the number of victories wasn't the point, the point was that Luffy was getting progressively closer to figuring Croc out till round 3 in which he surpassed him.

I was just pointing out how the muppets were making it sound like Croc wtfpwned Luffy in round 2 when essentially his winning attack wasn't even a direct attack on Luffy but more so the environment.

You're setting double standards here. If Croc using the environment doesn't count, then neither does Luffy using some sort of liquid in the fight. Wow, what do we have here? Luffy didn't actually beat Croc then (HaxeyeMihawk logic).

The point that many have been trying to get across is that without ANY outside sources, Luffy would've lost to ANY of the shichibukai simply because his pure destructiveness level is not yet at their level. It is also because of this that Oda's storywriting so far has been splendid - pitting the underdog against a champion and winning is much more epic than having a champion defeat an underdog.

Luffy won in both fights primarily because his opponents underestimated him. Had they taken him seriously, I don't think any sane person on this forum would bet their money on Luffy winning if the Protagonist-Wins rule were to be taken out.

wolfwood

Croc is not the idiot who will go after the no-names. This sounds completely not like Crocodile. He will go after the King .

Well no-name is a little misleading since everyone here is somebody worth noting. But i digress, what im saying is that i think he'll get to waste some lesser opponents as a last hurrah before he faces some real opposition and gets creamed by whoever Oda wants to build up atm.

That or he just stay in the background wasting no-names all along.

He like Moria is played out, they will get to knock around some relativly weak opponents and show us why theyre guys to be reckoned with and then either fade into the background or get beaten up. That's all i see in their future.

HaxeyeMihawk

Way back in Alabasta I used to think Croc's weakness would be heat, that if you heat him enough he'd turn to glass and could then be shattered. Hmm maybe Akainu could be the test to determine if this is another weakness. Ace would work as well.

brennen.exe

@silvers:

You're setting double standards here. If Croc using the environment doesn't count, then neither does Luffy using some sort of liquid in the fight. Wow, what do we have here? Luffy didn't actually beat Croc then (HaxeyeMihawk logic).

Luffy's blood is not "environment". He bites his finger to use Gear Third, so he is perfectly capable of making, say, his fists bleed at any given time.

junte86

Way back in Alabasta I used to think Croc's weakness would be heat, that if you heat him enough he'd turn to glass and could then be shattered. Hmm maybe Akainu could be the test to determine if this is another weakness. Ace would work as well.

With Ace it might be both of them can touch each other as Sand can also turn off fire, and hell this is one piece logia users can create massive amount of fire sand ice thunder, so its who produces more kind of battle, and I doubt Oda will care to elaborate on weakness since we have haki now

The man with a pigeon

With Ace it might be both of them can touch each other as Sand can also turn off fire, and hell this is one piece logia users can create massive amount of fire sand ice thunder, so its who produces more kind of battle, and I doubt Oda will care to elaborate on weakness since we have haki now

I seriously hope that you get proven wrong.

HaxeyeMihawk

@silvers:

You're setting double standards here. If Croc using the environment doesn't count, then neither does Luffy using some sort of liquid in the fight. Wow, what do we have here? Luffy didn't actually beat Croc then (HaxeyeMihawk logic).

The point that many have been trying to get across is that without ANY outside sources, Luffy would've lost to ANY of the shichibukai simply because his pure destructiveness level is not yet at their level. It is also because of this that Oda's storywriting so far has been splendid - pitting the underdog against a champion and winning is much more epic than having a champion defeat an underdog.

Luffy won in both fights primarily because his opponents underestimated him. Had they taken him seriously, I don't think any sane person on this forum would bet their money on Luffy winning if the Protagonist-Wins rule were to be taken out.

Wow how does using the only weakness that would allow Luffy to strike Croc the same as attacking the environment to get a win? Secondly I'm not discounting Croc's win, I'm merely saying that some people throw the 2-1 thing around as if Luffy got owned in round two when round 2 was 90% Luffy, and round 3 was all Luffy. Croc won round two in a similar way that Frieza tried against Goku by blasting Namek, basically destroy the environment and leave the other guy nothing to fight on. And I can't believe you pulled the easiest argument in the world to make, that stupid "Protagonist-Wins" antimain caster garbage.

junte86

@The:

I seriously hope that you get proven wrong.

In trouth I do not like the idea of haki being the solution for many things, but things are shaping up to be that way.
Logia fights up untill now was always finding their weakness and than beat them useing their weakness, This was the hard part of the battle,

But since we are being fired by Logias I think Oda decided to put a more simple manner to deal with logias rather than giving sea stone weapon some people will have haki.. it would get old Luffy always trying to find a way to hit a logia users.. and well he has king's haki now.

anyway I dont think fire will be crocodiles weakness as his reaction shown in level 4, and i hope his weakness Ivan mantioned was something different.

junte86

Wow how does using the only weakness that would allow Luffy to strike Croc the same as attacking the environment to get a win? Secondly I'm not discounting Croc's win, I'm merely saying that some people throw the 2-1 thing around as if Luffy got owned in round two when round 2 was 90% Luffy, and round 3 was all Luffy. Croc won round two in a similar way that Frieza tried against Goku by blasting Namek, basically destroy the environment and leave the other guy nothing to fight on.

umm NO! its not the same -- you are being way too extreme here.
and round 2 was not 90% Luffy, when did your opinion become canon, many people consider Round 2 was crocs win,
all these Environment advantage thing is pointless, croc used his surrounding to his own advantage, and showed an impressive mastery over his DF. And This battle is not a Tournament. Environment factor will always be there, you cant just disregard that in real fight --

HaxeyeMihawk

umm NO! its not the same -_- you are being way too extreme here.

I said similar and it is similar.

junte86