I guess we'll have to see them fight to see how they really do it then… we're starting to see some crazy shit with DF's, and they used to look pretty standard... Shanks used to be so weak that his arm got bitten off, for example
General Devil Fruit Discussion
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I guess we'll have to see them fight to see how they really do it then… we're starting to see some crazy shit with DF's, and they used to look pretty standard... Shanks used to be so weak that his arm got bitten off, for example
To be fair, he wasn't really weak. Whitebeard himself said that when Shanks came back with a lost arm, everyone was surprised. It was probably just a split second decision.
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Even though originally Shanks losing his arm has nothing to do with the actual story.
We can argue that it was done to Nerf him, otherwise Shanks would be to hax.
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Oh yeah, I remember the other thing I was going to say now, but it's probably been brought up many times already.
Kaido's flow of SMILE fruits… I suspect that it wasn't for his army (or at least not entirely). I suspect he was actually eating a lot of them himself. You can't have more than one real fruit at a time, but these aren't real fruits. Law's plan to weaken him wasn't just to have a few less animal people around to beat up, but to make Kaido himself not get any stronger -
Shanks used to be so weak that his arm got bitten off, for example
This isn't dragon ball z, getting strong doesn't automatically make them immune to everything below their "power level."
Remember, the killing blow to Whitebeard was mostly normal gunshots. Getting caught offguard can get through "power levels" in one piece.
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They can't all just be pre-fire-fruit Sabos…
That's such a specific power level to pull out lol
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We just have to wait for the Shanks VS Kid alliance fight to see what Shanks is capable of.
Let's think a little about the possibility of Shanks having a DF.
If he has a DF power, he ate the fruit after he lost his arm, so he would have 10 years to master a DF to a "Yonko level" of expertise + refine his haki.it seems plausible.
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We just have to wait for the Shanks VS Kid alliance fight to see what Shanks is capable of.
Let's think a little about the possibility of Shanks having a DF.
If he has a DF power, he ate the fruit after he lost his arm, so he would have 10 years to master a DF to a "Yonko level" of expertise + refine his haki.it seems plausible.
Plausible, however Shanks seemed pretty Adamant at the time that he'd prefer to swim. But now that I think of it, now he couldn't swim properly anyway so he may as well eat a DF.
I would be pretty disappointed to see Shanks with a DF, but then again, it would be cool to see what power he would have, and what he could do with it.
The reason I personally would be disappointed is because I really want to see what a guy like Rayleigh is capable of in their prime.
Just by looking at Rayleigh's basic combat ability way past his prime gives high hopes for elite level characters like Shanks who are on top of the world in terms of power, to not need an ability. -
so he would have 10 years to master a DF to a "Yonko level" of expertise + refine his haki
I'm pretty sure he was already one of the Yonko when he was still in East Blue. People have talked about how surprising it was to see Shanks lose an arm in the the weakest Blue, so he was a pretty big pirate even then.
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I doubt it at that point i think it would be like Jinbei doing that since a lot of people know Jinbei.
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@Game:
I'm pretty sure he was already one of the Yonko when he was still in East Blue. People have talked about how surprising it was to see Shanks lose an arm in the the weakest Blue, so he was a pretty big pirate even then.
He could have just been a strong pirate, not necessarily a Yonko. Ten years is a hell of a long time in One Piece, a lot could have happened in the NW while Luffy was growing up.
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This brings up another interesting question… (though it may have been brought up already)
Haki vs DF's.
The really hax ones-- for example, getting turned into art or a toy, or having your spirit broken from Perona's ghosts.
It sure would be silly for someone to come up with one of these cheap DF's and totally screw a Yonkou, right?
Does anyone else suspect with proper application of Haki, you can break an effect like this? -
This brings up another interesting question… (though it may have been brought up already)
Haki vs DF's.
The really hax ones-- for example, getting turned into art or a toy, or having your spirit broken from Perona's ghosts.
It sure would be silly for someone to come up with one of these cheap DF's and totally screw a Yonkou, right?
Does anyone else suspect with proper application of Haki, you can break an effect like this?I have a feeling that Vegapunk will explain this. He might explain what Devil fruits can and can't do and in what situation. Never know.
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Add on to the fact we learned a new feature to DFs recently in manipulating the environment from Paramecia's, and it becomes quite the interesting mystery.
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This brings up another interesting question… (though it may have been brought up already)
Haki vs DF's.
The really hax ones-- for example, getting turned into art or a toy, or having your spirit broken from Perona's ghosts.
It sure would be silly for someone to come up with one of these cheap DF's and totally screw a Yonkou, right?
Does anyone else suspect with proper application of Haki, you can break an effect like this?Yea, I assume it will work just like how Doflamingo broke free of Kuzan's ice.
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Yea, I assume it will work just like how Doflamingo broke free of Kuzan's ice.
Diamond joz had haki as well but he turned into ice
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This brings up another interesting question… (though it may have been brought up already)
Haki vs DF's.
The really hax ones-- for example, getting turned into art or a toy, or having your spirit broken from Perona's ghosts.
It sure would be silly for someone to come up with one of these cheap DF's and totally screw a Yonkou, right?
Does anyone else suspect with proper application of Haki, you can break an effect like this?it's a bit what happen to the attack of white bear when the 3 admirals combined their Aaki to nullified his attack…
and Luffy broke Dofla strings to was his Haki I belive
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@O:
it's a bit what happen to the attack of white bear when the 3 admirals combined their Aaki to nullified his attack…
and Luffy broke Dofla strings to was his Haki I belive
I think you were translated by Mangapanda :(
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ha ha , I must say you are right :D
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I think you were translated by Mangapanda :(
ha ha , I must say you are right :D
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He doesn't have Conqueror Haki.
Okay, this brings up a question that i have had for awhile. Everyone acts like Conqueror's haki gives you all these abilities but i thought all it did was wipe ppl with weaker wills out easily i didn't think it did anything other than that and maybe making your bosu haki stronger than normal? But i see all these people who think that the nxt gear will utilize King's Haki but all it does is make you wipe ppl out!
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Okay, this brings up a question that i have had for awhile. Everyone acts like Conqueror's haki gives you all these abilities but i thought all it did was wipe ppl with weaker wills out easily i didn't think it did anything other than that and maybe making your bosu haki stronger than normal? But i see all these people who think that the nxt gear will utilize King's Haki but all it does is make you wipe ppl out!
All "types" of Haki has the same fundamentals, which is Ki. In Conqueror and Armament's case, when two people fight in OP, the key is the "potential difference" but it's also a balance of the two people's Ki - all stemming from their 'drives' (I honestly don't wanna explain again as it's already all in my thread). To answer your question swiftly, here you go. Basically if you have Conqueror's Haki, it's Conqueror's Haki no matter if you use Armament or not because it all stems from your drive - like a color. When Doflamingo controlled Luffy, the latter was exhausted and hesitant, when Luffy snapped out of it he said he was sick of Doflamingo's control, literally and figuratively and went Gear Fourth, so no it's not just muscles but also his 'drive' - his Haki.
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So, fun thought…
Something has always kept people from getting to Raftel. We've got this image of it...
Would be amusing if there were always some torrential windstorm around it, and the only way to get in was through the fruit that Corazon had, the "calming winds" fruit or whatever the translation was.
We'll assume that no matter how similar a power may be or how strong someone is, that's the only way to get past it… the most useless fruit of all would be the most useful. -
So, fun thought…
Something has always kept people from getting to Raftel. We've got this image of it...
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130317233628/onepiece/images/thumb/6/65/Raftel_Infobox.png/250px-Raftel_Infobox.png
Would be amusing if there were always some torrential windstorm around it, and the only way to get in was through the fruit that Corazon had, the "calming winds" fruit or whatever the translation was.
We'll assume that no matter how similar a power may be or how strong someone is, that's the only way to get past it… the most useless fruit of all would be the most useful.Or the wind logia that Dragon might have?
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So, fun thought…
Something has always kept people from getting to Raftel. We've got this image of it...
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130317233628/onepiece/images/thumb/6/65/Raftel_Infobox.png/250px-Raftel_Infobox.png
Would be amusing if there were always some torrential windstorm around it, and the only way to get in was through the fruit that Corazon had, the "calming winds" fruit or whatever the translation was.
We'll assume that no matter how similar a power may be or how strong someone is, that's the only way to get past it… the most useless fruit of all would be the most useful.So there is a 500 decibel noise all year around?
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Where does these devil fruits come from, their origin?
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I don't know when or if this has been brought up, but is Chopper's ability to transform into more than three forms now a result solely of his training or in part a side effect of consuming the Rumble Ball drug?
The reason I ask is that we've been seeing Oda start to experiment a little with the limits of Zoans. In addition to the rarer classes of Zoans, we've also seen the increased power of the Awakened Zoans and the introduction of synthesized Smiles. However, we haven't seen anyone else display more than three forms with the small exception of Lucci, who used Life Return to slim down. What are the chances that with the Kaido arc presumably approaching we start to see new and more varied powers for Zoans?
What I'm getting at here is wondering if the common knowledge of three forms is a limiting mental factor in the use of Zoans fruits, and whether the exploration of the New World will yield the discovery of more people who have more than three forms.
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Where does these devil fruits come from, their origin?
We know next to nothing. The most we know is what occurred in Punk Hazard. After Smiley died, the Axolotl fruit appeared in a basket full of apples. If that says anything, when a Devil Fruit user dies, their fruit reappears and manifests itself at the nearest fruit. That said, there is still no clear explanation on it origins.
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I don't know when or if this has been brought up, but is Chopper's ability to transform into more than three forms now a result solely of his training or in part a side effect of consuming the Rumble Ball drug?
Franky transformed to Monster chopper after one rumble ball rather than three as in pre-skip. So it seems the drugs had an effect on his body.
The reason I ask is that we've been seeing Oda start to experiment a little with the limits of Zoans. In addition to the rarer classes of Zoans, we've also seen the increased power of the Awakened Zoans and the introduction of synthesized Smiles. However, we haven't seen anyone else display more than three forms with the small exception of Lucci, who used Life Return to slim down. What are the chances that with the Kaido arc presumably approaching we start to see new and more varied powers for Zoans?
Technically Chopper is simply messing up the transformation pattern so even if it's unlikely it should be possible to other zoans. But it would need some crazy level of control on the transfo.
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What I'm getting at here is wondering if the common knowledge of three forms is a limiting mental factor in the use of Zoans fruits, and whether the exploration of the New World will yield the discovery of more people who have more than three forms.
Chopper is a unique case, since he ate the Hito-Hito no mi and made the rumble ball to "hack" his fruit. And Lucci has the Rokushiki techniques to optimize his fruit.
It depends of the user, if he finds a way to use his power (like enel using his Goro-Goro no mi to boost his haki) in a new and creative way to transcend the limitations of the DF.
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Franky transformed to Monster chopper after one rumble ball rather than three as in pre-skip. So it seems the drugs had an effect on his body.
Technically Chopper is simply messing up the transformation pattern so even if it's unlikely it should be possible to other zoans. But it would need some crazy level of control on the transfo.
Excellent point what with Franky using it too. So it probably is the drugs that enable him to use the extra forms, meaning we might even see more from him if he keeps taking Rumble Balls.
Still, with scientists like Caesar and Vegapunk around the possibility of drug-induced extra-formed Zoans is still a thing.
Chopper is a unique case, since he ate the Hito-Hito no mi and made the rumble ball to "hack" his fruit. And Lucci has the Rokushiki techniques to optimize his fruit.
It depends of the user, if he finds a way to use his power (like enel using his Goro-Goro no mi to boost his haki) in a new and creative way to transcend the limitations of the DF.
Right, those are both unique cases, but shouldn't we see an increase in unique cases as devil fruit mastery increases? I don't see how eating the Human Zoan fruit should be any different than any other Zoan.
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Right, those are both unique cases, but shouldn't we see an increase in unique cases as devil fruit mastery increases? I don't see how eating the Human Zoan fruit should be any different than any other Zoan.
In the New World ? Yes, but not because of the DF, since zoan power is limited to animal transformation, if the user finds a way to transform in to a 4th form its because of the user capability, not because of the fruit power.
About the Human Zoan, compare Chopper´s fruit with any other Zoan. The Hito-Hito no mi gave chopper rationality instead of raw power.So, yes, is a unique case.
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In the New World ? Yes, but not because of the DF, since zoan power is limited to animal transformation, if the user finds a way to transform in to a 4th form its because of the user capability, not because of the fruit power.
About the Human Zoan, compare Chopper´s fruit with any other Zoan. The Hito-Hito no mi gave chopper rationality instead of raw power.So, yes, is a unique case.
Devil Fruit mastery is the thorough and creative exploitation of any and all abilities a devil fruit grants. If that means altering the body with Life Reurn, using it to amplify Haki, or taking advantage of the environment, then that's all part of the devil fruit's potential. It's up to the user to imagine and explore those options, but if it involves the fruit's power even secondarily, then it's part of the fruit's power.
For Chopper, sure he became smarter due to eating the fruit, but it just brought him up to human intelligence. A scientist with a different Zoan fruit could have just as easily invented a Rumble Ball. I don't think the specific fruit had anything to do with the addition of extra forms.
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Devil Fruit mastery is the thorough and creative exploitation of any and all abilities a devil fruit grants. If that means altering the body with Life Reurn, using it to amplify Haki, or taking advantage of the environment, then that's all part of the devil fruit's potential. It's up to the user to imagine and explore those options, but if it involves the fruit's power even secondarily, then it's part of the fruit's power.
For Chopper, sure he became smarter due to eating the fruit, but it just brought him up to human intelligence. A scientist with a different Zoan fruit could have just as easily invented a Rumble Ball. I don't think the specific fruit had anything to do with the addition of extra forms.
I got your point, if someone is capable to transform into a 4th form, is because the user has a unique technique and the fruit gives this option to the user. But I have the feeling that the Zoan fruits are bound to the user body limitations and capabilities, more than Paramacia and Logia.
About Chopper, I will take your exemple, if a scientist with a different Zoan invented the rumble ball it would be because of his intelligence, not because of the fruit intelligence.
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I got your point, if someone is capable to transform into a 4th form, is because the user has a unique technique and the fruit gives this option to the user. But I have the feeling that the Zoan fruits are bound to the user body limitations and capabilities, more than Paramacia and Logia.
About Chopper, I will take your exemple, if a scientist with a different Zoan invented the rumble ball it would be because of his intelligence, not because of the fruit intelligence.
Yeah, Zoans' limitations seem more concrete than Paramecias or Logias. That's why I'm thinking of ways to keep them relevant.
The Rumble Ball might be a consequence of Chopper eating the Human Fruit but he's not the only one who could have created one. The Rumble Ball itself is technically unique to Chopper but that sort of power up doesn't need to be unique to him.
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It depends of the user, if he finds a way to use his power (like enel using his Goro-Goro no mi to boost his haki) in a new and creative way to transcend the limitations of the DF.
The rumble ball was made to disrupt the transformation ability of his zoan. I always believed it would work the same way for other loans. The question would rather be would the the new transformation be useful to them?
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Yeah, Zoans' limitations seem more concrete than Paramecias or Logias. That's why I'm thinking of ways to keep them relevant.
The Rumble Ball might be a consequence of Chopper eating the Human Fruit but he's not the only one who could have created one. The Rumble Ball itself is technically unique to Chopper but that sort of power up doesn't need to be unique to him.
In the new world. we could see a long arm person with the praying mantis fruit or a long leg person with the ostrich fruit, who know ? The new world might introduce us to new power for the zoans, but only if the user has something to add.
About Chopper, you are saying that others Zoan can transform in a 4th form without the rumble ball ? That is possible, again, with the capability of the user (Haki + animal form).
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In the new world. we could see a long arm person with the praying mantis fruit or a long leg person with the ostrich fruit, who know ? The new world might introduce us to new power for the zoans, but only if the user has something to add.
About Chopper, you are saying that others Zoan can transform in a 4th form without the rumble ball ? That is possible, again, with the capability of the user (Haki + animal form).
Oops, no, I was just trying to get technical with the terminology. Maybe some New World Zoan users have more than three forms through training, yes, but I was suggesting that someone else might reproduce the Rumble Ball for their own purposes. It might be a copy or it might be created independently; either way they'd probably call it something else, making the term "Rumble Ball" exclusive to Chopper.
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I thought about this whole awakening-thing.
In my opinion awakening your DF and having haoshoku haki (HH) is somehow connected.We saw Shanks HH was able to bend wood and even split the sky, so altering objects or direct enviroment seems to be connected to HH.
That might be the advanced form of mastering it.
Doffy was the first guy, we saw altering his environment with his DF ability and we know he possesses HH.
That could mean Doffy was able to combine those to technques/abilities to create "awakened paramecia".
So instead of having now each DF sooner or later awakened, i believe only those with HH are able to do that with paramecia DFs (maybe logia).As seen with the prison guards in ID, zoan can be awakened without the user being a haoshoku haki user, but we also saw that they had no control over their will anymore.
Zoan DFs might be easier to awaken, because there is the spirit of the animal, that can overtake the user, but to be able to control it properly, you would also need HH.
That might be wrong as soon as we see Kaidous armee of awakened DF users who still have their will.^^
But my point is, being able to control your environment with your DF ability demands you mastering HH.
So a zoan DF i can´t picture controlling the environment (besides controlling the animals you can turn into) so that this DF class should be seen a bit isolated and that their awakened form is overtaking the animal spirit instead of altering the environment.
Also we don´t know what the deal is with logia abilities, but here i think it´s easier to picture that they can control the environment just like paramecia could do. -
Zoan awakening must be like what happens to those Household Vessels from Magi.
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Franky transformed to Monster chopper after one rumble ball rather than three as in pre-skip. So it seems the drugs had an effect on his body.
That was actually Chopper's body with Franky's heart/mind in it so the theory still works. To me that is the only way that i see Chopper being able to do it. Maybe he infused some of it into his blood or something to make him be able to do it by himself.
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I don't think chopper would take a drug he knew would affect his body as long term effects wouldn't be known. the rumble ball if I remember correctly messes with the devil fruits frequency or what not, which allows him to intertwine different forms. I say he only made the rumble ball more effective.
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Chopper's rumble ball and transformations is special (at least from what we know so far), that's the reason Luffy gave when he invited him, remember? His rumble ball though just disrupts the wavelengths and adds new transformations from his base transformations. Like the way he stands with his hands/hooves, that's how you can tell whether it comes from his Beast, Human or Hybrid points. I talked about this in my own thread before and I'll try not to repeat myself again. Chopper's case is different from the other Zoans as he has the Human Devil Fruit, however it doesn't mean his Animal side is irrelevant as Zoans are all based on transformations - like let's say Humans with Animal Devil Fruits have more than 3 forms, they would probably still only have one human form like Chopper (Heavy Point; Human hands and feet) but the possible difference is they'd look more Human..? (probably)
Anyway, the biggest difference with the Human Devil Fruit is not only the development but the possible awakening, at least in Chopper's case. This would be a lot simpler in my thread but I'll try to sum it up as best I can. In the spiritual (Buddhist) sense, humans have choices, ideals, passions, a developing mind and a pretty balance amount/chances of suffering and pleasure which makes it the ideal "condition". Animals and I mean actual Animals (but yes Humans can have the condition of Animals) are not so lucky as they are simple, can only rely on instinct which often leads to brutality, are used as cattle etc. If awakening is indeed to embrace those conditions/nature (like Impel Down), what makes Chopper's Fruit difficult to determine is whether he needs to embrace his Animal or his Human side to gain awakening.
However, in terms of development, his Humanity is what's been emphasized since he was introduced. After being human, he gained a mind of his own and developed it which he used to become a Doctor, as a Doctor, he created the rumble balls which he used to add new transformations. Before the time skip, his vow is he wouldn't mind becoming a Monster if it aids Luffy, which in the island he was in, we could take as embracing his Animal side (as well as keeping his Humanity in the form of medicine plants/books/advanced technology). So it wouldn't be that ridiculous to say something along the lines of "gaining new forms also involves embracing the Animal (also Human in Chopper's case) within you" though whether or not you actually need the rumble ball to first unlock the forms would be the question.
Oh and if in the case of embracing being Human = awakening for Chopper then I'm not entirely sure if Chopper really would gain awakening without a rumble ball seeing as that's pretty vague unless he becomes enlightened or something.. but being a Human to become a Doctor to create the rumble ball and then use said creation to unlock his awakening is in a way what you could also call embracing being Human, don't you think? Hmm.
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I think Crocodile already awakened his Devil Fruit. With the 'sucking-the-moisture-out-of-everything' part. He also already kneep and recognized Awakened Devil Fruits.
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I think Crocodile already awakened his Devil Fruit. With the 'sucking-the-moisture-out-of-everything' part. He also already kneep and recognized Awakened Devil Fruits.
I don't think Croc was on that type of level at that point in the series. Anyway, sand absorbs moisture, that's what it does. Doflo used his awakened abilities to control the surrounding environment like strings. I assume that every DF awakens in a different way. Logias like Croc's can already control elements in their environment, so their awakening might be related to something else. Luffy will most likely just turn into a smaller version of gear 4 when he awakens. The fact that I can speculate this much means we barely know anything and we simply need to wait until Oda explains this shit lol
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Someone mentioned in the spoiler-thread that the last admiral could be someone who messes everything up, but by luck always gets the job somehow done.
I highly doubt that Green Bull will have such a character at all, but non the less i find the idea of a luck-DF really interesting.With this DF you would be unbeatable and also strenght wouldn´t be an option to overcome someone like this, because by luck he wouldn´t ever get hit or him getting hit would result into something good for him.
I remember JoJoBA SBR had such a guy.
I guess in the OP world Buggy already has this kind of power, seeing his rise without any competence, so maybe we don´t need that DF ;)As for Green Bull i really would love to see a plant or earth/soil based DF, while him having a Mifune typical crazy unpredictable outgoing character^^
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I think that since Croc is able to do that he is awakened. Look at PH maybe Kuzan and Saka both used an ability similar to that and changed the landscape forever.
@Don:
Someone mentioned in the spoiler-thread that the last admiral could be someone who messes everything up, but by luck always gets the job somehow done.
I highly doubt that Green Bull will have such a character at all, but non the less i find the idea of a luck-DF really interesting.With this DF you would be unbeatable and also strenght wouldn´t be an option to overcome someone like this, because by luck he wouldn´t ever get hit or him getting hit would result into something good for him.
I remember JoJoBA SBR had such a guy.
I guess in the OP world Buggy already has this kind of power, seeing his rise without any competence, so maybe we don´t need that DF ;)As for Green Bull i really would love to see a plant or earth/soil based DF, while him having a Mifune typical crazy unpredictable outgoing character^^
Earth Earth fruit? We haven't seen that one yet right?
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I was re-reading One Piece a bit today, and saw something I didn't remember seeing before (maybe because it's been so long.)
That first panel/bubble. Sea-devil incarnations?
A sea devil is a type of fish… so how do you tie fish, fruits, weird/random powers, and the can't-swim thing all together? Of course, Sea Devil could mean something more mythological, like actual demons that live in the ocean or something, but does anyone who's known about this all along have a guess? -
I think Shanks said demons as in a "curse of the sea" (as in, you end up being banned from the sea). I don't believe there is a living being inside the fruit.
I also remember Jabra talking about this "sea demon" with Kaku and Kalifa, maybe it's a folklore/misinterpretation of a fact in the world of OP.
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I can't remember if it was a faulty translation or not, but didn't BB say the Yami Yami no Mi has the power of the actual devil when he fought Ace or something along that line?