OK first off this thread is about chapter 319 and how the sea makes devil fruit users drown. Don't you all find it weird how when Smoker used his seastone sword against luffy, which sealed his devil fruit powers and then when Ao kiji sticks his arm into the water he can still use his ability? If you re read chapter 319 you clearly see him touch the water, so my question is, is Ao kiji able to swim or does he have to abide to the same rules as every other devil fruit use we have seen so far? Although when luffy asks him if he was gunna swim the gap while carrying all the luggage he replies "that is impossible". When he says that is he talking about how he ate a devil fruit so it is impossible for him to swim, or did he mean it was physically impossible for anyone to do what luffy asked? I personally believe that he is able to swim because even though he ate a devil fruit he can freeze water, and to freeze anything he has to have contact with it which would mean that unlike luffy he can touch water and not lose his powers.What do you guys think about this topic(s)
Does Ao Kiji's devil fruit abide by the same rules as everyone elses?
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he abides by the same rules other Devil fruit users need to. Reason is that he wasn't completly immersed, i guess.
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Reason is that he wasn't completly immersed, i guess.
That could be it. But if it was Luffy who had put his hand in the water, he would probably go "uuugh", I think…
I think the key to this mystery is that he wasn't completely immersed; but even less immerse than we think. Ao Kiji has an ability to freeze - so maybe he froze the water a little with the hand he put in the water, and thus lowering the Devil fruit weakness against ocean water? :ohmy: -
Aokiji likely has the strongest fruit in the series now; as you mentioned, he is immune to the ocean weakness (much in the same way the artifact Zoans are), though he likely still has his elemental weakness (if he has one) and a weakness to seastone.
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Luffy was waist-deep in water before he started feeling weak in Alabasta. Come ON people.
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hmmm, the strongest DF is without any doubt Ener's Lightning Devil Fruit.
Traditionally, there are 4 elements - Water, Earth, Fire and Air. Lightning is the ultimate combination of fire and air. Lightning is fire hotter than any fire can ever be, thus if Ener were to fight Ace simply DF to DF, he's incinerate him. Kuzan he'd simply turn to a small puddle of water. Water conduces electricity and so does ice. Kuzan's melt like a snowflake against Ener. -
Luffy was waist-deep in water before he started feeling weak in Alabasta. Come ON people.
But at the same time all smoker had to do was touch luffy with his seastone sword to seal his powers, and seastone has the same power over devil fruit users as the ocean does. And the point I tried to get across was that you couldn't use your powers when you come in contact with the sea if you were a devil fruit user, not if you felt sick or not. Sorry if I didn't clearly get that across.
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I don't think there's much need to speculate on the matter. He wasn't even in the water. He just put his hand in it.
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Being touched by seastoen has the effect of being submerged in ocean water. There, I made everything better.
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Aokiji only puts his hand into the water, I wouldn't classify that as submerged. With Smoker, his staff isn't 100% made of seastone, only the tip is made of seastone and with seastone it most likely only works when you come in contact with it, not be in it's presence, just like water.
I believe that covers it…?
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@ysn:
hmmm, the strongest DF is without any doubt Ener's Lightning Devil Fruit.
Traditionally, there are 4 elements - Water, Earth, Fire and Air. Lightning is the ultimate combination of fire and air. Lightning is fire hotter than any fire can ever be, thus if Ener were to fight Ace simply DF to DF, he's incinerate him. Kuzan he'd simply turn to a small puddle of water. Water conduces electricity and so does ice. Kuzan's melt like a snowflake against Ener.That's just your opinion. Ice doesn't conduct electricity as good as water and lighting would destroy fire either.
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You know, it would suck if Ao Kiji was riding his bike then some random guy stuck a stick in the wheel.
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Luffy was waist-deep in water before he started feeling weak in Alabasta.
Waist-deep? :ohmy: I thought it was after their feet were submerged… but you're right.
@Bad-Beat:
I believe that covers it…?
Yeah. I'd like to say that comparing seastone and the ocean water is like comparing the ocean with a melon - which is said contains as much water like the ocean. :biggrin:
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I think the seastone Smoker had had a very high concentration of that seastone-element.. I mean, Robin has seastone cuffs on and she can still walk but not use her powers so obviously there are different variations and gradations.
I've actually wondered about this myself when I first saw the anime ep where this happened and kinda figured after a while that it probably needed to be more than just a little bit to drain your powers..
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Isn't just swimming impossible for those who have the power of the devilfruit?
So that would mean thez could walk in little water and resist to rain :P
and for smoker sword it is just the top that has some seastone.
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Yes, just the top, AND he has gloves. ;)
I would really like to see Luffy fighting someone who uses a seastone weapon all the time. Smoker has his sword, yes, but I think he rather uses his smoke powers.
A bounty hunter with all kinds of seastone weapons… ohh, it makes me dizy, it would totally rock my world. -
Just think back at Arlong Park. Luffy was underwater but his DF powers were still there. He was just too weak to use them.
So seeing it that Aokiji just put his hand in water and not his entire body it makes perfect sense for him not to be harmed by it. Also, Aokiji wasn´t using his power out of a sudden but he concentrated before he could release it. I think it works all quite well.
I think that whatever weakens DF users is much more concentrated in seastone then in water. Therefore IMO a much higher amount of seawater is needed to have the same effect as a little piece of seastone.
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Just think back at Arlong Park. Luffy was underwater but his DF powers were still there. He was just too weak to use them.
This does make it kinda weird that Robin seems physically unaffected by the seastone cuffs, but is unable to use her powers only. Seems almost like the other way around.. has this been explained somewhere?
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@Oni:
Don't you all find it weird how when Smoker used his seastone sword against luffy, which sealed his devil fruit powers and then when Ao kiji sticks his arm into the water he can still use his ability?
Go back and read the Arlong Arc again, even total immersion doesn't shut down Devil Fruit powers. It only prevents the user from using them because they cannot move their bodies.
Although when luffy asks him if he was gunna swim the gap while carrying all the luggage he replies "that is impossible".
stephen just renders it as "of course not" rather than "that is impossible". The former really seems more in line with Aokiji's character anyway.
What do you guys think about this topic(s)
At a guess, he has the same chance as any other Devil Fruit user when it comes to falling into the sea: if he can activate his powers before sinking, he might escape. Wapol, for instance, probably managed to create a raft or something that kept him afloat before he sank. So, if Kuzan can create an ice cocoon around him before his body locks up, then he has a reasonable shot of surviving.
@jackvance:
This does make it kinda weird that Robin seems physically unaffected by the seastone cuffs, but is unable to use her powers only. Seems almost like the other way around.. has this been explained somewhere?
Well, how many times have we seen her use her power without moving her hands in some fashion?
There's definitely a contradiction between the way Nami explained seastone recently and the way it has been depicted in the past.
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I think the reason that Robin can walk in her seastone cuffs comes down to a problem Oda encounters with writing the story without creating too many issues..
He obviously can't have her able to use her powers, otherwise that just kinda ruins the whole arc but he can't have her completly disabled from any movement because parts of the story have her walking around..
Oda is the god of writing stories but i believe the cuffs became a problem.
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@Bad-Beat:
Oda is the god of writing stories but i believe the cuffs became a problem.
It's not really a major one though as it could be chalked up to seastone only affecting a User to a certain point. On the other hand, if he's suggesting that it shuts off powers but doesn't weaken users, then there's a major plothole that will be hard to retcon.
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. On the other hand, if he's suggesting that it shuts off powers but doesn't weaken users, then there's a major plothole that will be hard to retcon.
that's what I was getting at..
he wanted to make Robin not be able to use her devil fruit ability but still be able to walk and speak. At the time of writing he maybe couldn't figure out a way to get this accross so he left it without mentioning what they were made for a while. Now he says they are seastone so maybe he has figured out a way for it to work…:ninja:
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Okay, I'm going to copy + paste from a thread again… it's my own hypothesis, drawn after 400 chapters of OP. Plus minus.
Firstly, zoan and logia are pretty clear cut in the sense of abilities, but here is my take on paramecia.
_Firstly, it is the body alter category. Those that fall under this category include Gomu Gomu, Sube Sube, Supa Supa etc. In each of these, the body becomes rubbery, frictionless and metallic respectively. There is no command over the substance itself, only over the user's body. In my personal opinion, I would say this is the weakest devils fruit, though it can help the user out in a pinch. This is the only kind of fruit that gives the human body new properties aside from Logia, but in this form, the change is permanent.
Secondly, there is the environment alter category. The only one I can think of is the Doa Doa fruit. It allows the altering of an object's properties when in contact with a user. The Doa Doa fruit seems to be the first of it's kind to me… Their bodies also will still be in human form, it seems.
Thirdly, there is the substance emission category. Users create an object from their bodies, but their bodies are not that object. Their bodies remain in human form. These include Doru Doru, Hana Hana, Noro Noro and Ori Ori. They create wax, body parts, the Noro photon and cages (of an unknown substance) respectively. Unlike environment alter, they create new substances and do not alter ones present in the environment.
Finally, the body change category. The users of this category retain their human bodies but are able to rearrange their cells to form a higher density or just a new form for themselves. However, all the while, they still are flesh and blood. Examples are Toge Toge and Kilo Kilo. The first one creates spikes and the second one increases weight. They are still in human form when their powers are in activation. Unlike Supa Supa where the user is steel, these are still flesh and blood although in different shapes and densities._
Now, my take on seastone/sea.
_For Paramecia users, they become unable to do the respective of their class, ie emit substances, alter the environment or alter their bodies at will. Those that have been permanently changed remain changed, but as all others, their muscles also become extremely weak. Logias revert back to human form, but for Zoan, they suffer in the current form their body is in. Touching a seastone temporarily weakens DF users, but in minute quantities, their powers are merely arrested, and they have their normal strength still.
As for the sea, it appears that DF users are unaffected by splashes of water. It also appears that they will be unable to swim in water where seastone subtances are present. They must be almost totally immersed in a body of water for the same effect that seastone gives to take place. They become extremely weak but still have limited movement, but very far from enough for propulsion._
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@jackvance:
This does make it kinda weird that Robin seems physically unaffected by the seastone cuffs, but is unable to use her powers only. Seems almost like the other way around.. has this been explained somewhere?
Interesting. What I think about this, is that it's about the difference of devil fruit types. Nico Robin can move even with the handcuffs, and that must have to do with different degrees of seastone, like Ubiq stated. Enough source from seawater to shut off her powers but not enough to make her physically unstable.
But I think that if Luffy were to wear those handcuffs - he would be unable to move, while most of the other devil fruit users wouldn't. Because Nico Robin's way of using her power is to create bodyparts, and Luffy's way of using his power is just… to move. You all know that Luffy is still rubber even if he's submerged or touching seastone, he can stretch even under water. Which means the only way to disable his powers is making him unable to move.
What do you think… ? :blink:Edit: Phlemingo's message might contain alot of what I'm trying to imply.
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@ysn:
hmmm, the strongest DF is without any doubt Ener's Lightning Devil Fruit.
Traditionally, there are 4 elements - Water, Earth, Fire and Air. Lightning is the ultimate combination of fire and air. Lightning is fire hotter than any fire can ever be, thus if Ener were to fight Ace simply DF to DF, he's incinerate him. Kuzan he'd simply turn to a small puddle of water. Water conduces electricity and so does ice. Kuzan's melt like a snowflake against Ener.Ice is very bad conductor of electricity, about as bad (and I'm pretty sure worse) than rubber, even.
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Water is a very bad conductor of electricity as well. In fact, it doesn't conduct electricity at all. Impure water, however, has conductors of electicity IN it, and that's what conducts the electricity.
You can bet money that logia users are their pure element. And if Aokiji is PURE ice, that means he doesn't contain the metals and such that tap water would; rather, he'd be pure water, which does not conduct electricity.
So Aokiji > Enel, at least if your only point is that Aokiji would conduct electricity.
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Aokiji freezes the area surrounding his hands before dipping it into the water before he ice-timed the freaking sea
make any sense to u? -
my point was that aokiji cannot freeze Ener since due to his nature Ener is unfreezable. On the other hand Ener can melt Aokiji, as due to his nature Aokiji is meltable.
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@Spiriax:
Interesting. What I think about this, is that it's about the difference of devil fruit types. Nico Robin can move even with the handcuffs, and that must have to do with different degrees of seastone, like Ubiq stated. Enough source from seawater to shut off her powers but not enough to make her physically unstable.
But I think that if Luffy were to wear those handcuffs - he would be unable to move, while most of the other devil fruit users wouldn't. Because Nico Robin's way of using her power is to create bodyparts, and Luffy's way of using his power is just… to move. You all know that Luffy is still rubber even if he's submerged or touching seastone, he can stretch even under water. Which means the only way to disable his powers is making him unable to move.
What do you think… ? :blink:Edit: Phlemingo's message might contain alot of what I'm trying to imply.
Yeah I've heard this explanation before too, in some way or the other. That Luffy's power isn't shut off by seastone simply because.. as a paramecia, it is always on.
But the explanation I always clung to was that 'using a DF power' is kinda like making an effort, such as moving your arms or legs. For example when Smoker was trapped in the seastone cage, he couldn't just turn to smoke and fly out, because upon touching the bars, this would drain his physical strength and that would make it impossible for him to keep his logia-form up. So if he tried, he'd probably drop to the ground in human form in front of the bars, which is why he didn't even try to escape.
This explanation always kinda covered everything for me.. until ofcourse the cuffs on Robin. It doesn't seem to drain her physical strength at all, rather just her power.
I'm with Bad-Beat on the explanation of this phenomenon: Oda simply needed this kind of behavior for the plot, as Robin being a rag doll would ruin so many things in the story. So he'll probably make up some explanation afterwards.. or ignore it and laugh it off when asked about it in an SBS (or what are those interviews called again?).
@ysn:
my point was that aokiji cannot freeze Ener since due to his nature Ener is unfreezable. On the other hand Ener can melt Aokiji, as due to his nature Aokiji is meltable.
That really depends on what kind of physics Oda decides to apply to this equation.. as we have seen in the past this often isn't all that realistic, so it's at Oda's sole discretion.
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@ysn:
my point was that aokiji cannot freeze Ener since due to his nature Ener is unfreezable. On the other hand Ener can melt Aokiji, as due to his nature Aokiji is meltable.
Aokiji is as meltable as luffy and he didn't melt did he?
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Less meltable, since he can regenerate his ice. This is literally all Ao Kiji would have to do to beat Eneru.
Surround Eneru completely with ice.
The ice won't conduct electricity, Eneru will be completely trapped as he can't turn into electricity and seep out, since the ice won't conduct him. I imagine Eneru is still effected by extremely cold temperatures, and he could die from that.
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@jackvance:
This does make it kinda weird that Robin seems physically unaffected by the seastone cuffs, but is unable to use her powers only. Seems almost like the other way around.. has this been explained somewhere?
Well the seastone cuffs are not attached at an vital point of her body. As Ubiq said he always uses her hand when she uses her powers, that´s probably enough to keep her from using her DF powers. But she doesn´t have to feel weak because of it. If you compare it to Arabasta when Smoker used his jutte on Luffy he was pressing it directly against his chest. In this case the seastone is much closer to a vital point (the heart) then in Robins case so that could explain the lack of weakness for Robin.
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Yeah sure you can give explanations that make it work, but that's kinda after the fact analysis. Ofcourse that's all we can do, but the point is Oda never really explains this so all we can do is guess. Seastone working better when closer to a vital element? Maybe.. but there's no real proof for this either. I could just as well say it has to do with the concentration of seastone in the cuffs as opposed to in the sea or in Smoker's staff.. or that it affects different powers differently.. or whatever I want.
It 'draining physical strength' which is needed to activate DF powers always seemed a very simple and elegant explanation, until now then.
In Robin's case I always figured they were regular cuffs on her hands.. that she simply didn't use her powers because she was 'mentally broken'. So was quite a surprise to learn they were in fact seastones.
I still think Oda just uses it at his discretion for what is needed in the story and he'll - maybe - give a more thourough explanation later.
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@jackvance:
Yeah sure you can give explanations that make it work, but that's kinda after the fact analysis. Ofcourse that's all we can do, but the point is Oda never really explains this so all we can do is guess. Seastone working better when closer to a vital element? Maybe.. but there's no real proof for this either. I could just as well say it has to do with the concentration of seastone in the cuffs as opposed to in the sea or in Smoker's staff.. or that it affects different powers differently.. or whatever I want.
Isn´t trying to find plausible explenations on that what wasn´t explained by the author yet, something that we always do here? I don´t get why it is a bad thing out of a sudden. :mellow:
In Robin's case I always figured they were regular cuffs on her hands.. that she simply didn't use her powers because she was 'mentally broken'. So was quite a surprise to learn they were in fact seastones.
Huh, it was mentioned long ago already. In chapter 382 to be precise. Spandam´s words are: "Do not undo Nico Robin's Sea Tower Stone shackles under any circumstances."
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Yeah sure you can give explanations that make it work, but that's kinda after the fact analysis. Ofcourse that's all we can do, but the point is Oda never really explains this so all we can do is guess
I think that if we are going to analyse the original idea and how it all should work we should fit some explanations to it :P There's no point picking something apart for the sake of it, rather look at it and see how it could work.
regarding seastone cuffs vs smokers jutte I like Ivotas's point of how close to a vital organ they were.
I'm pretty sure the nature of Aokiji touching the water has been covered already.
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Isn´t trying to find plausible explenations on that what wasn´t explained by the author yet, something that we always do here? I don´t get why it is a bad thing out of a sudden. :mellow:
Well, it's not bad.. it's just that I thought I had a very elegant explanation of how this worked but now it seems it doesn't work.. and now I have read a bunch of different explanations, and can think of some more if need be, and each one is as plausible as the next really..
Ofcourse everyone can think of what they want, but personally I'll need to wait for some more "clues" from the manga itself before I can make a new theory on how it works.
Huh, it was mentioned long ago already. In chapter 382 to be precise. Spandam´s words are: "Do not undo Nico Robin's Sea Tower Stone shackles under any circumstances."
Heh, missed that one. A few days ago I read up on a whole bunch of chapters since I was seriously lagging behind (that's why I resumed posting in the manga forum here after a long break) so didn't pay too close attention I guess.
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I believe the true power of Devil Fruit actually depends on how the user uses it. Kuzan only seems powerful because he uses it well and to an extreme extent. If he did not master it and does nothing more than throwing tiny ice cubes, then he would not seem very powerful.
Same goes for Eneru: If he haven't train it and does nothing but firing tiny electric beams, then he won't seem deadly either.
The real power of DF lies on how experienced you are on using it.
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of course you have to train with your devil fruit powers. I mean Luffy would'nt be able to do anything if he had'nt trained. I'm guessing the only one who didnt have to train at all was Alvida with the slip slip fruit(forgot japanese name)
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@ysn:
hmmm, the strongest DF is without any doubt Ener's Lightning Devil Fruit.
Traditionally, there are 4 elements - Water, Earth, Fire and Air. Lightning is the ultimate combination of fire and air. Lightning is fire hotter than any fire can ever be, thus if Ener were to fight Ace simply DF to DF, he's incinerate him. Kuzan he'd simply turn to a small puddle of water. Water conduces electricity and so does ice. Kuzan's melt like a snowflake against Ener.I don't think any DF is the strongest. It is only a matter of being able to find the weakness to cancel out the power, other than the seastone of course.
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Hmm actually Phlemingo (#23) already said everything I wanted to mention, and he pointed that out even more…
Ruffy's whole body was turned into Rubber and so the seastone weakens all of his body.
Robin's wonderful body didn't change by eating the fruit. So all the seastone does to her is subpressing the ability the fruit gave her.
So to me these handcuffs aren't a problem or mistake at all......and as Pauli (#26) allready pointed out pure water does not conduct any electricity at all and so on…
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In Skypeia Luffy threw his entire arm into the ocean and Robin used her ability to grab Usopp.
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I wonder if water would even be a worry for Ao Kiji if he really is pure ice as most people suggest. If the sea water weakness only affects DV users who have most of their bodies in the sea, then Ao Kiji could simply turn to ice and float on top of the water like an iceberg.
haha that would actually be a great way for him to lose at the end, get thrown into the sea and have him float away knowing that if he tries to defrost himself at all he'll drown
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Very good point about the vital point of body-thing, Ivotas! :biggrin:
@jackvance:
as a paramecia, it is always on.
I think you mean "as a paramecia of the paramecia-type that Luffy has, it is always on". Because Nico Robin's devil fruit isn't always on and she has a paramecia too.
@jackvance:
This explanation always kinda covered everything for me.. until ofcourse the cuffs on Robin. It doesn't seem to drain her physical strength at all, rather just her power.
Yeah, I see what you mean. But once again, I think it just depends on the different degrees of seastone power. In my opinion.
Ruffy's whole body was turned into Rubber and so the seastone weakens all of his body.
Robin's wonderful body didn't change by eating the fruit. So all the seastone does to her is subpressing the ability the fruit gave her.
So to me these handcuffs aren't a problem or mistake at all…Hey, that nice and concised explanation made it all sound so simple!
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@Spiriax:
Because Nico Robin's devil fruit isn't always on and she has a paramecia too.
She always has hands, does she not?
Robin has been defined as a Paramecia by Oda. I'm pretty sure that the "always active" and "permanent change" criterion for a Paramecia type comes from Oda himself via the SBS. Some of the classifications admittedly make less sense than others (for instance, I think the Doru Doru Fruit would have made more sense as a Logia Power that Mr. 3 had not yet mastered).
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oh here we go to mr3 again. There is not one DF discussion that people fail to bring him up.
my cents:
Mr3 differs from the Logia because he cannot sustain the state of "Wax". He can generate it (using that fluid-like wax) but after the wax cools it's no longer Mr3, it is just wax. If he had the ability to keep himself in that liquid-like Wax permanently them he would be a Logia. Unlike luffy who IS rubber, Mr3 isn't wax. He can create wax just like Robin can create arms.I kinda like this theory, the only problem that I get with it is the Candle Champion. But i haven't really gave too much thought into it.
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She always has hands, does she not?
Yeah yeah, but what I meant with "not always on", is that with those handcuffs on, she cannot sprout any bodyparts, but if Luffy for example would put those on someone would be still be able to grab his arm and stretch it. That's why Luffy's power is "always there", while Nico Robin's power is not.
(for instance, I think the Doru Doru Fruit would have made more sense as a Logia Power that Mr. 3 had not yet mastered).
Yes, I agree, that makes great sense.
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Hmm actually Phlemingo (#23) already said everything I wanted to mention, and he pointed that out even more…
Ruffy's whole body was turned into Rubber and so the seastone weakens all of his body.
Robin's wonderful body didn't change by eating the fruit. So all the seastone does to her is subpressing the ability the fruit gave her.
So to me these handcuffs aren't a problem or mistake at all...I don't think this particular explanation can be right.. I thought it was clearly stated many times that "DF users become dead weights in water".. but with this explanation quite a bunch of them wouldn't..
Then again, who knows ofcourse.. a lot of explanations can be viable now.. but this one I kinda doubt it, personally :P
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my theory is, that seastone does not have the properties of the ocean, but the ocean contains a massive amount of seastone, over time it dissolved and mixed with the ocean. since it is diluted tho, it is not as stong as seastone. so for it to take effect, a massive amount much touch the body of the df user to take effect. so just slightly touching it wont make you lose power, but neither will pouring it on a df user. seastone in its solid state however, can make a df user lose power from a slight touch of a small amount(smokers sword).
I also believe seastone may have been unnatural and created as a way to battle df users by the lost civilization(probobly to combat what is now known as the WG) but they were foiled and the WG dispersed it across the worldthis however has no evidence(98% sure my first theory is right tho)