First, let me apologize for tardiness. Real life often gets in the way of my One Piece time, as is why I hardly ever post to begin with, but I'm having fun here so I shall try my best to retort. I want to keep in perspective here that I'm not arguing that the way I prefer my translations is truest to the author's intentions. If the argument was about that, you would have me soundly beaten and I hope I haven't come off that way (if I have feel free to quote it and shove it in my face, I do tend to mistype and rarely proofread). My argument is that there is a valid reasoning to the method of translation used in English that I and many others prefer. Namely, we can be exposed to the original language and be let in on the joke via footnotes, and even without footnotes we can do a little research to learn.
@Monkey:
No that would be "shrubland" lol.
These things are more or less synonyms. Heath (at least in American English) is a very obscure synonym almost never in use, and looking it up it may in fact only really refer to specific sort of shrubland to begin with. Making it even more obscure.
The definition of synonym is two words (or phrases) that mean exactly or almost same thing. But you're right, I'm not being totally forthright with the definition. Heath is the word for 'uncultivated open area of land, usually featuring small coarse plants such as shrubs'. Pardon me for using shrubland, I wasn't intending to undermine my own argument, I wanted to get out what I'm trying to say by using heath's more commonly understood synonym.
You are correct that it refers to a very specific sort of shrubland, and uncultivated shrubland (due to not being able to be cultivated to begin with). Usually people will then apply the definition of "barren land or "wasteland" but there are technically quite a few shrubs, so I tend to stick with shrubland. I understand that it is by no means as common in everyday language as it once was, but that's not really my point. My point is that other languages that have their own words for such things don't translate my name to their language when I talk to them. I don't look up the definition of a person's name and translate it when I meet them, I don't care how simple or complex the definition of their name is. Now of course this point relies on the idea that we use my "insane logic". (come now, let's pump the brakes a little bit I don't believe I live in One Piece world or anything).
No it is not THE word. How you keep insisting this while using the main word "shrubland" yourself is amazing to me.
Oh come on, I know perfectly well you understand that when I say the word, I mean they're practically interchangeable. The minute differences between a heath and other varieties of shrublands wouldn't prevent them from working as synonyms. I already said that I clearly understand it isn't a commonly used word. There's no need to try to paint me as idiotic.
Dear god don't go down this insane path with your argument…
Well half the fun is jumping down the rabbit hole.
Alright I'm going to ignore the insanity of this sort of thinking process and just hone in on the fact that none of this makes any sense at all anyway considering the Japanese audience is reading "bear". There is no ambiguity to that whatsoever. The man's name is literally "Bear". Your insane mindset of trying to create some "immersive" in-universe perspective would be changing what the author did. In effect you're inventing logic and translation ideas that are in open conflict with the author.
They would call him Bear….or if we were speaking and reading Japanese, yes Kuma. Either way what does this have to do with anything???
Are you imagining us as the natives here?? Is this a bizarre metaphor?? What??? 0____0
We know that when a character looks at Kuma and says Kuma to address him they aren't in on the joke. It's when they seem him for the first time or hear about him and say things like 'A Bear?' that they're making the joke. Oda is in on the joke all the time, the character isn't. Everytime they mention his name, I get it we're supposed to chuckle cause oh boy 'Bear' the guy that looks like a bear is back. But the characters aren't in on it.
What the metaphor is supposed to mean, is they wouldn't translate it on the planet, so I can see a translator's reasoning for not translating it in the real world. It's a name, we're not used to names being translated in the real world, so I can see a translator not wanting to go against their real world instincts on the page, and I like it more that way.
None of this matters because Oda named the character Bear. And we the readers are supposed to read the name as the same word for this. Whatever language we speak and read One Piece in.
And I get that, I do, believe me. His authorial intent is totally clear. But I'm arguing we can get the joke and learn a neat little word in Japanese by having the original word and a footnote.
That's what a Japanese dictionary is for. Not a rubber pirate comic book that only rarely has cultural issues and tough to translate words. When Wano rolls around and Oda starts dropping cultural in-jokes and very specifically Japanese words left and right I'll be siding with you. But the giant bible slinging cyborg pirate whose also called "Bartholomew" is not the time or place for an editor's note teaching people about friggin' Japan lol. And again this is a case of addition, you're adding in things that the Japanese audience wouldn't have. I find it really bizarre that someone can exhibit a sense of cultural purism toward the Japanese language, but not in the experience actual Japanese people have when reading the comic.
And I think we've finally found the point where your unstoppable force is going to meet my unmovable mountain. First and foremost, I have no sacred purist view of Japanese, I think it sounds like a neat language when spoken sure, but the only Japanese media I tend to follow is One Piece. (If I had a hard on for any language it's German, don't know why, I can't speak it at all but it sounds so freaking cool to me.) But ultimately, I view any reading/viewing of material that was translated from its original language as an opportunity to learn about that language. I like when they don't translate names and stuff (even if they are basic puns) because I get to learn. Now, your argument holds plenty of water, a rubber pirate comic may very well not be the place for that (like you said, Bartholomew is clearly some Christian reference stacked on top of bear puns). But I think all places are the place for that. Even if I don't get the exact experience of guffawing at the exact moment when the original Japanese reader would, rather guffawing a few moments or minutes later. Reading the name Bartholomew Kuma for this first time for me was super exciting, cause I learned what kuma meant.
Translating honorifics to me has always only made sense if the characters in question are not from a culture of fictional-culture of origin. Don Quixote is a Spanish character in the first place, leaving it as Don makes sense. Especially given the familiarity of English speakers with "Don" as a title. In fact honestly Sir may be an English term…but we ain't in England are we. For Americans "Sir" is about as familiar as "Don". Hell we have had actual people go by "Don" in the US!
But our US understanding of Don is more based on Italian mafia and gangsters due to media portrayal, not at all the context that Don Quixote uses Don. Where as Arthurian legend is fairly commonplace in the US and we tend to get exposed to Sir in a more similar context.
It's the same logic where I think in something like Vagabond, leaving the Japanese honorifics is fine (also fine to not keep them).
Whereas leaving the Japanese honorifics in Berserk? Offputting and stupid.
I can actually agree with honorifics. Actually can super agree if only because I had a slightly racist grandfather (lovable, truly outstanding and amazing guy, but grew up during WWII and never shook the fears society put in him) who would refer to me as boy-san whenever he thought I was being a nuisance, drives me nuts when I hear anything -san. But once again, I do like learning what those honorifics mean, though they appear so much more frequently that they can lead to annoyance.
You don't need to research that to know that in Don Quixote lol. It's practically the plot.
But when we're exposed in society to Don being largely used as a word to refer to fathers of organized crime? I definitely had to look up what Don meant on my first read. I was incredibly confused as to why he was referring to himself as a crime boss.
This is not the purpose of One Piece and is super strange and bizarre to force into it.
Especially considering One Piece is such a wordly globetrotting manga, not a piece of Japanese slice of life/history.
Perhaps it is a bit odd to try and force it on others, but I definitely prefer it this way. But as it looks like I admitted a couple paragraphs up, I enjoy my translated media this way, I can see that your argument holds more water for the public at large.
True, lucikly the word for bear has no such issues.
A stupid pun isn't really "gotten" if you have to look it up and go "Ah! Now I get it.".
It's the kind of thing you stumble over while reading and guffaw and roll your eyes.
Generally what you see some translators try to do is give THAT experience, by substituting something similar.
Steven a little bit ago did this with the bull in the Arena fight. It's name was a pun (not even really a joke pun) that didn't translate, like a combo of Japanese for Cow and Luffy's alias Lucy. Cow I think is Ushi or something like that, so in Japanese you can combine that with Lucy to make "Ucy".
Steven went with "Moocy", which isn't exactly what Oda wrote down but is pretty close and gives across the same idea without a cumbersome disruptive footnote. The point is a stupid silly nickname.
For sure, I get it's a silly nickname. But, I guess my own bias of liking to learn of the language while reading the medium is definitely swaying my argument. I can feel the holes in my ship, I know when I'm sinking.
No he's just making jokes to people.
See by now you're probably wondering what I'm even saying? Well it's pretty simple. You're ascribing some sacred importance to it being in Japanese, I'm pointing out the banality of it being in Japanese.
So yeah like…languages are not really artistic choices in most cases? Especially not in rubber pirate comic books.
They're utilitarian things people use to communicate.
If Oda knew 17 languages the one he would choose would be the one that would be the language of wherever the heck he lived. As an ethnic Japanese citizen of Japan, it's pretty easy to see why Oda writes a comic book in Japanese. This is also aided by the fact that I'm 99% positive he doesn't know any other language anyway.
You're insanely overthinking this.
If you got it into your head to write down a story you really wanted to tell would you remotely think about what language you would write it in? Of course not.
When writing it would you stop every three seconds to consider whether a name or pun or phrase would translate out of English well? Of course you wouldn't.
Why the heck would Oda??
No, no, I don't think he sacredly divined that Japanese was the language. Perhaps I was overly exuberant in my portrayal, but my point is simply because he wrote it in Japanese, for a Japanese audience, that makes it intended to be in Japanese. Perhaps it's not special decision, but he makes the jokes because they're jokes that he's learned in his culture. We can't claim that he didn't intend it for a Japanese audience, because he did, he probably, never in his wildest dreams expected One Piece to become what it is now where people all over the globe read it. All the little things about One Piece we enjoy that are directly attributed to Japanese culture that Oda picked up because he lived there, are intended. Those cool shots of Marines standing in suits with katanas on their waist? We get those because he's Japanese. If he was European they would probably be rapiers or broadswords. Ultimately, we can't get the exact experience of Japanese readers because we didn't grow up in their culture. As you pointed out, we can get translations like what Steven did to give us a closer experience, or we can leave some words in their Japanese with footnotes so we can learn about said culture. I tend to prefer the latter. (I already conceded that this has practically no impact on the Kuma/Bear situation though.)
He is writing for the globe, but in a roundabout way. He is still a Japanese guy writing within Japan in Japanese. Inevitably there will be little speedbumps in it leaving both his language and his culture. So what? That's exactly what happens when anyone writes globally! No matter where you're from or what language you use.
Do I think he thinks mostly of the Japanese audience? Yes of course. But only because that's where and what he is. Not from some stupid holy obligation to the Japanese language.
I don't think it's holy, it just felt like to me you were dismissing the importance of the fact that his writings will reflect his culture. But I don't think you can argue he's writing for the globe, he's definitely aware the globe reads his works now, and he loves pulling references from around the globe, but he's writing for a very specific group of people.
Where on earth is there an author who writes with the specific aim of an entirely different language and culture than their own? It's a ridiculous concept that could only come from someone overthinking things to heck.
Joseph Conrad. Now his was a deliberate effort to distance himself from his culture of origin (polish), but I'm getting tired now, and Mr Conrad is the first person that sprang to mind.
–-EDIT---
I wanted to add, in conclusion, I can definitely see that your argument holds more weight for the usual reader. Getting a closer experience to how the author intended things to work is probably a better way to translate for people at large. I have a strong bias towards not translating everything because I like to pick up different words and do research while reading, it's just who I am.