@minus.:
Unfortunately, people have always thought of something to create differences where there aren't any.
!
@minus.:
Unfortunately, people have always thought of something to create differences where there aren't any.
!
Here is this book I been reading, http://books.google.com/books/about/The_New_Jim_Crow.html?id=C50WsaGikaYC
It's really interesting.
Is this current info? Do you know what year the data is from?
Or is it averaged over data taken over some set of years?
Those grab-bag countries in near-eastern Europe look like a lot of fun. 1/4 of my heritage is from one of them, which is why I ask about the timeliness of the data.
If it's up to date i'm suprised that Sweden doesn't have a bigger green slice
What's the difference between Saxon and Saxon? Is one meant to be Anglo-Saxon and the other Saxony Saxon?
Is this current info? Do you know what year the data is from?
Or is it averaged over data taken over some set of years?
Those grab-bag countries in near-eastern Europe look like a lot of fun. 1/4 of my heritage is from one of them, which is why I ask about the timeliness of the data.
They're based off Y-DNA haplogroups.
@Monkey:
They're based off Y-DNA haplogroups.
Very cool stuff. I think I remember seeing this before, was it used to trace the origin of the species?
@Print:
What's the difference between Saxon and Saxon? Is one meant to be Anglo-Saxon and the other Saxony Saxon?
I wouldn't overly focus on those descriptors.
What these mostly really show are paths of large migration periods, many of them probably pre-historic.
Like the Red? That's probably the very first people who moved into Europe.
So think less "Saxon" and more "Flinstones".
Blue is likely very very early as well.
Yellow is the most interesting, as that's most likely the lineage of the Indo-Europeans, the ones crazy people made lots of dumb legends about (Hitler).
The people who were probably the first culture to ride around on horses in the big steppes like assholes.
You see lots of the yellow type DNA in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and parts of the mountains in Pakistan.
Oh, so that explains the documented massive genetic difference between Western and Eastern Finnish people of old. I've heard so much of it, but never actually learned what it was exactly. Good stuff.
Also, I can't help but think of this, as inaccurate and awfully generalizing as it is:
!
@Monkey:
Yellow is the most interesting, as that's most likely the lineage of the Indo-Europeans, the ones crazy people made lots of dumb legends about (Hitler).
The people who were probably the first culture to ride around on horses in the big steppes like assholes.
You see lots of the yellow type DNA in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and parts of the mountains in Pakistan.
Ah yes, the old haplogroup R. R for "Rider", I'm assuming.
Thanks so much for posting this stuff! It's very interesting. I didn't know there was a part of the Y chromosome that didn't recombine!
If it's up to date i'm suprised that Sweden doesn't have a bigger green slice
They would be testing native Swedes, as that is the point.
Also the Arabs if that's who you mean wouldn't just be big slabs of green either, they'd have their own jumble of colors just like you vikings do.
And watch it buster, the Cypriots are overwhelmingly green too.
@Monkey:
They would be testing native Swedes, as that is the point.
Also the Arabs if that's who you mean wouldn't just be big slabs of green either, they'd have their own jumble of colors just like you vikings do.
And watch it buster, the Cypriots are overwhelmingly green too.
Oh that's unusual. I think we as a nation decided that there is no such thing as native Swedes back in like 2011 or so.
My slight problem with discerning colors didn't help with this. For the first few seconds i thought the turquoise was green.
Oh that's unusual. I think we as a nation decided that there is no such thing as native Swedes back in like 2011 or so.
lol are you saying that Swedes are trying to copy American multiculturalism? When it doesn't really work lol?
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Oh, so that explains the documented massive genetic difference between Western and Eastern Finnish people of old. I've heard so much of it, but never actually learned what it was exactly. Good stuff.
Also, I can't help but think of this, as inaccurate and awfully generalizing as it is:
! http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tv/image/1384/59/1384596049448.png
Yeah that purple slice is probably folks who eons ago walked around Eurasia counter-clockwise before they hit Norway. Explains a lot of the asianish characteristics you sometimes see in northern europe.
And why your language family has both really white looking people AND asian looking people AND mixes of the two speaking it.
I think it's interesting as well to see how little genetic impact the invader groups that changed local languages had in some cases.
Like the English are very similar to the Celts, the Anglo-Saxon addition seems small.
Same with Hungarians who aren't any different from everyone around them.
And Turks who are just Greeks with a tiny tiny smidgeon of Central Asian in them.
For anyone wondering here's Cyprus.
I think the Swedes just share my opinion of nationalism at large, lol.
I think the Swedes just share my opinion of nationalism at large, lol.
Nationalism can be a different animal entirely than ethnic nationalism though.
We're exhibit A, considering we're one of the most progressive countries on earth in regards to the latter, and for a developed nation are one of the least progressive on the former loll.
ANYONE COME RIGHT UP, NO MATTER YOUR RACE, CULTURE AND CREED AND BECOME A FROTHING JINGOIST!
Like with most things concerning my home nation i've got a loose grasp, at best, of the reasons behind it.
But the official story is that the only true Swedes are the Sami, and that everyone else is an immigrant if you look far enough back. Hence striking guard over traditions that, according to this definition, aren't really Swedish, like everything you grew up with, is silly and should be eshewed for an all out acceptance of everything new, since immigrated traditions are basically what you should consider to be as Swedish as any of the old imports.
To summarize it's basically a way for the left to give the finger to the rightwing parties.
This just goes to prove that nobody moves to Wales.
@Monkey:
Nationalism can be a different animal entirely than ethnic nationalism though.
We're exhibit A, considering we're one of the most progressive countries on earth in regards to the latter, and for a developed nation are one of the least progressive on the former loll.
ANYONE COME RIGHT UP, NO MATTER YOUR RACE, CULTURE AND CREED AND BECOME A FROTHING JINGOIST!
Yeah, the problem is just that people tend to lump the two together, which I kinda bypassed completely because I sometimes think it's self-evident and doesn't need explaining. National pride and what have you are totally cool in my books, but when it becomes all "country x for people x" it kind of stops being empowering and starts causing trouble. And the Swedes are famous for desperately trying to avoid that kind of trouble on all fronts.
Well, basically, what wolfwood just said. Our country belongs to no one because no one was here first, we just inhabit the land now so let's be happy with that but not go down the jingoist route. :P
Like with most things concerning my home nation i've got a loose grasp, at best, of the reasons behind it.
But the official story is that the only true Swedes are the Sami, and that everyone else is an immigrant if you look far enough back.
haha what, where the hell do they think Swedes came from.
The Saami didn't pop out of the ground either.
I looked up what their colors would be, and it would be basically identical to the Swedish one except take out the red and add purple, and make the purple more dominant. They're probably more like you than Finns are.
And yeah, that sounds like somehow or another the hyper leftists that populate your country just somehow lifted the American narrative wholesale for no reason. Somehow making a bunch of people whove been dragging knuckles and clubs around that place since forever….to somehow Native Americans vs Europeans who showed up less than 500 years ago?? lol, they are literally inventing things to make into issues aren't they.
You don't need to be settlers to oppress the Saami!
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Yeah, the problem is just that people tend to lump the two together, which I kinda bypassed completely because I sometimes think it's self-evident and doesn't need explaining. National pride and what have you are totally cool in my books, but when it becomes all "country x for people x" it kind of stops being empowering and starts causing trouble. And the Swedes are famous for desperately trying to avoid that kind of trouble on all fronts.
Well, basically, what wolfwood just said. Our country belongs to no one because no one was here first, we just inhabit the land now so let's be happy with that but not go down the jingoist route. :P
You guys basically are Saami, except you went south right near the end. How does the Saami/Finn friction get characterized in Finland? Is there much friction?
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@Print:
This just goes to prove that nobody moves to Wales.
Yeah lol, even Iceland beats the crap out of the British isles on genetic diversity.
Interestingly I think the larger Red in Iceland might be because the Vikings brought Celtic slaves with them. Though I guess Denmark has lots of red so who knows.
Swedish politics is basically two trenches, where the fanatics sets the rules, and will shoot anyone who tries to scurry out into the grey zone.
Straying from the dogma is in the best case seen as enabling Nazism/Communism, or as deliberate sabotage by some kind of bought and paid for mole.
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@Monkey:
haha what, where the hell do they think Swedes came from.
A fairly common answer is Africa. As in you shouldn't be racist against black people because everyone is sorta African in the beginning.
@Monkey:
You guys basically are Saami, except you went south right near the end. How does the Saami/Finn friction get characterized in Finland? Is there much friction?
Not as much as you might imagine because everyone's been pretty aware of the fact that there is no such thing as a Finnish folk in general. The big narrative that's been going on around here for ages is that, basically, what is now known as Finland was split into a predominantly Germanic-Ugric West (a mixture of Swedes and the original Ugric folk who wandered here a bit after the Saami populated the North) and into a predominantly Ugric and somewhat Slavic East that were genetically farther away from one another than modern day Dutch and Brits are, with some purely Fenno-Ugric (Tavastian) people trapped in the middle.
Then WWII happened, and basically forced about half a million to a million Eastern Finnish people to move wherever in what remained of the country, and the whole thing got mixed up so badly that everyone's pretty much everything these days. And the Saami have been doing that pretty actively too since the 60s when everything became affordable for everyone and they started abandoning their traditions, so even they have become "Finnish".
The few odd thousand Saami people who still live up North and uphold their cultural traditions are regarded as being similar to some of the older folk whose families have lived close to the Russian border for the past five hundred years. Clinging onto old traditions, but still "us".
A fairly common answer is Africa. As in you shouldn't be racist against black people because everyone is sorta African in the beginning.
But…while true in a really convoluted point missing way....SO DID THE SAAMI.
Also here's a wider map of the whole wide world. This is more generalized but it's pretty good too.
Look how crazy simple West Africa is, it's the place people are actually thinking humans began nowadays due to stuff like this.
And yes, Afro-Americans/Latinos/Canadians/Carribeans. Those are most likely your direct ancestors, that huge light blue circle with the tiny little sliver in it.
http://masterkosta.com/Foto/Statystic/Y-Haplogroups-1500AD-World-Map.png
Also holy SHIT Uzbekistan lol.
A quick song by Uzbekistan everyone.
@Monkey:
But…while true in a really convoluted point missing way....SO DID THE SAAMI.
Also here's a wider map of the whole wide world. This is more generalized but it's pretty good too.
Look how crazy simple West Africa is, it's the place people are actually thinking humans began nowadays due to stuff like this.
And yes, Afro-Americans/Latinos/Canadians/Carribeans. Those are most likely your direct ancestors, that huge light blue circle with the tiny little sliver in it.
http://masterkosta.com/Foto/Statystic/Y-Haplogroups-1500AD-World-Map.pngAlso holy SHIT Uzbekistan lol.
Yeah, this is the one I thought I'd seen before.
So I really am a black man, huh.
Update: It's interesting to me. I think I can almost see how the spread of humanity was punctuated by the arrival of new colors/mutations. Wow.
And you can really see how the Americas first got populated across the Bering Strait. Neato!
Is it, ah, true, what they say about the way "you people" are gifted?
What is funny about that map is that it really does not support the new theory of the Bering Sea land bridge not having been the primary route of original Native American settlement. On the contrary.
@Monkey:
But…while true in a really convoluted point missing way….SO DID THE SAAMI.
Welp i think you just went and summed up the entirety of what it means to be a Swede.
More often than not Swedish policy is dictated more by how it fits into the narrative, than how well it would solve whatever issue is at hand.
Like making an actual gain, but undermining the narrative, is not an acceptable way to do things.
Which is kinda fascinating really, since our entire culture in general is built around compromising.
I saw the last group (Hunnic, central Asia) and was immediately reminded of the Mulan movie in which the Xiongnu was called the Huns, an association that is still a controversy today. The Xiongnu is familiar enough with us East Asian. The Huns, not so much.
Celtic tactic for the ages: get yourself invaded, assimilate the invaders, look natural.
However, how did we Slavs come to Iceland? Even better, why did we come to Iceland? Or should that be a different, earlier migration wave of similar people? It's like a whole third of yellow there.
Yeah, this is the one I thought I'd seen before.
So I really am a black man, huh.
Update: It's interesting to me. I think I can almost see how the spread of humanity was punctuated by the arrival of new colors/mutations. Wow.
And you can really see how the Americas first got populated across the Bering Strait. Neato!
Yeah the genes things aren't really so much physical stuff like skin tone and nose shape per say.
Like the Red in the Europe chart? If those really are the first humans that went into Europe I recall reading elsewhere that they were black skinned most likely when they first arrived. And over time things like lighter skin tone and brown, blonde and red hairs showed up due to environment.
I saw the last group (Hunnic, central Asia) and was immediately reminded of the Mulan movie in which the Xiongnu was called the Huns, an association that is still a controversy today. The Xiongnu is familiar enough with us East Asian. The Huns, not so much.
"Let's get down to business to defeat the Xiongnu"
What is funny about that map is that it really does not support the new theory of the Bering Sea land bridge not having been the primary route of original Native American settlement. On the contrary.
What new theory lol.
I haven't heard anyone question that ever. I mean how the heck else did people get there exactly?
@Monkey:
Yeah the genes things aren't really so much physical stuff like skin tone and nose shape per say.
Like the Red in the Europe chart? If those really are the first humans that went into Europe I recall reading elsewhere that they were black skinned most likely when they first arrived. And over time things like lighter skin tone and brown, blonde and red hairs showed up due to environment.
Oh, haha, by "colors" I meant the colors in the pie charts. lol. My b
Central Asia, you're such a mishmash. It's beautiful. But also understandable given being in the middle of everyone.
I'd not realised there was such a link between Japan and Tibet before.
The few odd thousand Saami people who still live up North and uphold their cultural traditions are regarded as being similar to some of the older folk whose families have lived close to the Russian border for the past five hundred years. Clinging onto old traditions, but still "us".
I've gone to school with a whole bunch of Sami kids. And i had no idea until they brought it up during a history segment in school.
Unless they're doing a whole raindeer skin boots and blue leather dress i've got absolutely no way of visually telling 'em from anybody else.
What is funny about that map is that it really does not support the new theory of the Bering Sea land bridge not having been the primary route of original Native American settlement. On the contrary.
Wow, yeah, you're right. I remember hearing that the modern idea was that it was settled across the pacific by the sailing peoples.
@Monkey:
What new theory lol.
I haven't heard anyone question that ever. I mean how the heck else did people get there exactly?
Oh, aren't you familiar with the theory that some linguists and anthropologists have came up with that tries to claim that, while the land sea was one of the main routes, most of the people who originally populated Mesoamerica and the Southern parts of the modern day US came from the pacific when it had way more islands than it has today as its surface level was a lot lower.
I think that's been around for about ten to fifteen years, and it seems to be getting more and more popular. Something about how the languages seem way more like Polynesian languages than anything more Northern than that. Dunno how the genetics play into that, though. Evidently very poorly.
Celtic tactic for the ages: get yourself invaded, assimilate the invaders, look natural.
However, how did we Slavs come to Iceland? Even better, why did we come to Iceland? Or should that be a different, earlier migration wave of similar people? It's like a whole third of yellow there.
You're looking at a little wrong.
The yellow doesn't equal Slavs.
It equals a population spread that happened way before the earliest recorded existence of Slavic culture, the one that we call the Indo-Europeans.
If you check the world map version you see the same haplogroup has strong presence in north India and parts of Central Asia.
Where the Indo-European people spread their languages and genes as well.
That some Slavs have lots of their genes is merely geographical. Your culture popped up around the area those guys originally likely came from. But you weren't the only ones. Probably their direct descendent culture went extinct forever ago. You ever read about the Scythians? Yeah that was probably their closest eventual form before they got absorbed and defeated by other horse asshole people (the Huns as matter of a fact).
Whatever exactly the Huns were is extremely unclear though.
The horse asshole peoples throughout the ages are extremely tough to categorize aside from the leaders.
You know Indo-Europeans, Scythians, Pechenegs, Magyars, Khazars, Mongols, Kazakhs, Bulgars, Dothraki etc.
@Monkey:
Dothraki
Jesus, you almost got me there.
And never forget the Sarmatians. They were there too. Unless you're saying that they're the same as Scythians, which I guess is correct but is still arguable? At least according to what I know have heard?
@Print:
Central Asia, you're such a mishmash. It's beautiful. But also understandable given being in the middle of everyone.
I'd not realised there was such a link between Japan and Tibet before.
I think that might have been one of the earlier populations in East Asia? That HAD more presence in the mainland lowlands but that got marginalized by other migrations oevr the years. Yet the HIGH ASS mountains and REMOTE ASS islands preserved it a bit better.
I'm going to guess in Japan's case that that is from the Jomon people. While the blue is the Yayoi people. And the pink is uh, some dudes who hopped over from Manchuria or something.
I think Zephos liberal use of "horse asshole people" makes this count as infotainment.
My favorite part of this is how many peoples racist nationalism really gets fucked up by it.
English supremacist over those Celts? Well hey I got bad news.
Germanic Arayan theorist who loves the Kurgans? And really wants to kill all Slavs? Well gosh, I hope you enjoy dramatic irony!
Turkish and Greek extremists talking about their unique natural difference from the other? Welllllp.
Also you can just keep endlessly owning Hitler here. He was Austrian, check the first chart and Austrians are hella diverse. This was the dude who thought genetic mixing was horrible.
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Jesus, you almost got me there.
And never forget the Sarmatians. They were there too. Unless you're saying that they're the same as Scythians, which I guess is correct but is still arguable? At least according to what I
knowhave heard?
I think the Sarmatians are just a later more localized form of the Scythians that existed near the Black Sea.
I think the comparison would be like "I think the Pizza Flavor is just a later more specialized flavor of the Pringles that exists in the white can."
Racism in general gets really fucked up by it, honestly. All you have to do is to take the whole thing down to an individual level and start tracing back as far as you can go. Races stop existing at a certain point and it all just becomes "well, this one group that is kind of genetically closer to one another than these other people living a bit further away but that is by no means static".
Which is complete common sense, of course, but fuck all racists.
Oh, aren't you familiar with the theory that some linguists and anthropologists have came up with that tries to claim that, while the land sea was one of the main routes, most of the people who originally populated Mesoamerica and the Southern parts of the modern day US came from the pacific when it had way more islands than it has today as its surface level was a lot lower.
I think that's been around for about ten to fifteen years, and it seems to be getting more and more popular. Something about how the languages seem way more like Polynesian languages than anything more Northern than that. Dunno how the genetics play into that, though. Evidently very poorly.
I like how the Purple people got to that area of Asia and were like "man fuck that shit" and the light purple people came later and were like "oh hell yeah".
Though more likely…maybe the land bridge wasn't around when the purple people came by or something lol.
But I like my version better.
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Racism in general gets really fucked up by it, honestly. All you have to do is to take the whole thing down to an individual level and start tracing back as far as you can go. Races stop existing at a certain point and it all just becomes "well, this one group that is kind of genetically closer to one another than these other people living a bit further away but that is by no means static".
Which is complete common sense, of course, but fuck all racists.
And then of course the Uzbekistan like blizzard that random Latin and White Americans would probably resemble if tested.
@Monkey:
I think the Sarmatians are just a later more localized form of the Scythians that existed near the Black Sea.
I think the comparison would be like "I think the Pizza Flavor is just a later more specialized flavor of the Pringles that exists in the white can."
Yeah, evidently, I went to Wikipedia (the most trustworthy of sources, hooray) to read up on it immediately after I posted that and this is pretty much what it says too. Except that, basically, the whole term Scythian is very vague and just seems to be referring to a big group of very similar nomadic peoples that still had some slight regional distinctions and that apparently still competed with one another.
Yeah, evidently, I went to Wikipedia (the most trustworthy of sources, hooray) to read up on it immediately after I posted that and this is pretty much what it says too. Except that, basically, the whole term Scythian is very vague and just seems to be referring to a big group of very similar nomadic peoples that still had some slight regional distinctions and that apparently still competed with one another.
Yeah, like I said horse assholes are tough to categorize. Like you might have had one group at the start that was homogenous? But they're like Katamari Damacy, by the time they get to the other side of the steppes they've picked up a hundred different soldiers and so forth from here there and everywhere.
@Monkey:
And then of course the Uzbekistan like blizzard that random Latin and White Americans would probably resemble if tested.
Yeah, no kidding. Sometimes I honestly wonder how we haven't gotten rid of racism already. Like, just make people learn some of the easy facts and the whole problem doesn't exist anymore. But, as always, societies change way slower than individual people do. Bleh.
Also, lol at the idea of a Proto-Uralic America. That would have been weird.
@Monkey:
My favorite part of this is how many peoples racist nationalism really gets fucked up by it.
I think most European rightwingers have begun to crabwalk over to rebranding it as a debate about culture.
I mean it feels like, to me, that it's been quite a while since i heard some major party talk about ethnic make up and such.
Now it's more this cultural tradition does this, and that's bad, while our much nicer culture does things like this see.
I mean it feels like, to me, that it's been quite a while since i heard some major party talk about ethnic make up and such.
Cough True Finns cough.
Oh and the Indo-European thing also totally explains why you can find people living in remote pagan villages in the Pamir mountains who look like this lol.
Guess which one is the native local and which is the tourist!
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I think most European rightwingers have begun to crabwalk over to rebranding it as a debate about culture.
I mean it feels like, to me, that it's been quite a while since i heard some major party talk about ethnic make up and such.
Now it's more this cultural tradition does this, and that's bad, while our much nicer culture does things like this see.
OUR version of generic globalized American branded culture handles supermarkets betterer than yourrrrrs!!!
Yeah, no kidding. Sometimes I honestly wonder how we haven't gotten rid of racism already. Like, just make people learn some of the easy facts and the whole problem doesn't exist anymore. But, as always, societies change way slower than individual people do. Bleh.
Also, lol at the idea of a Proto-Uralic America. That would have been weird.
Societies, being composed of people, can only change on a people-time scale (not a person-time scale). It takes like a lifetime for a culture to change.