Are you guys implying that all female characters are weak and "girly" (and that being "girly" is pejorative)?
Amazon Lily, Shakky, Hina, Catarina Devon, Whitey Bay, Rebecca, Robin, Kalifa, Monet, Baby 5, Lola, Bonney… we had all kind of female characters portrayed, I don't get why you guys are making a fuss about some stereotypical jokes that were probably made because he wanted the female versions of the supernovas to be somewhat the opposite of what they are.
@Strеlоk_:
And what's the "issue"?
That Oda generally portrays women as weak, fragile beings and has far less range in how they're portrayed as opposed to men. And that if any women don't conform to a very narrow set of sexist ideals they're pretty much always evil, hideous people
(But I agree that there are some cringeworthy chauvinistics moments… the last ne being that fight between Zoro, Monet and Tashigi.)
@Al!naJames:
I'm glad that more people are stressing over this issue and I'm not the only one.
Also, we're not chewing on Oda for his silly joke in SBS, we're chewing on him for actually not joking about that in SBS and following the same course with the actual story.
Pretty much this. If it wouldn't be becoming a norm, everybody would just move on and say "I guess it's just a little joke in the SBS, no biggie" It's not like he's completely awful at portraying women, either. Some of his tendencies at portraying women are just becoming more and more obnoxiously pronounced as the story goes on. He could do so much better, he has proven it with his story.
Aaron- I think you can see how hard it is to resist engaging. It's absolutely maddening.
Hence the persistence of the topic. ;)
@Al!naJames:
I'm glad that more people are stressing over this issue and I'm not the only one.
Also, we're not chewing on Oda for his silly joke in SBS, we're chewing on him for actually not joking about that in SBS and following the same course with the actual story.
Yeah, you're not alone, and I appreciate how hard it can be to actually mention this when you get people immediately trying to shut you down, like in this very thread.
@Strеlоk_:
Zoro didn't fight at first, because he didn't want to fight someone much weaker than him. And this is not what chauvinistic means, btw.
Wait a minute, didn't you get banned along with Hody Jones on April Fool's?
That was my APRIL FOOL'S PRESENT and you are ruining it right now.
Wait a minute, didn't you get banned along with Hody Jones on April Fool's?
That was my APRIL FOOL'S PRESENT and you are ruining it right now.
The dead are known to return on Halloween.
@Strеlоk_:
This. There are many more actually.
We've barely seen anything of SHakky so she's kind of hard to judge. Amazon Lily also had all the girls there becoming obsessed with Luffy (and his penis, even if that was a joke). Hina's character is pretty sexist (I remember her main quirk being that she used a way of talking that is considered cute in Japan), Rebecca wears a fucking chain mail bikini which really isn't appropriate or necessary in any way. Robin is great, but she's really hasn't done much in a long time despite being a main character and is once again overly sexualized. Kalifa basically forgot she was supposed to be an assassin, Baby 5's whole gimmick is being unable to say no to anything and marrying random guys, Lola is ugly as a joke and has a character centered around getting married. Bonney we haven't seen enough to make a really fair assessment. Caterina Devon is evil, and you'll note her comment when all the BB's were talking was about shopping and getting clothes. Whitey Bay really did nothing ever. Big Mom is a hideous monstrosity and clearly not a role model.
Wait a minute, didn't you get banned along with Hody Jones on April Fool's?
That was my APRIL FOOL'S PRESENT and you are ruining it right now.
He's been banned countless times already. Most recently was like two days ago.
@Strеlоk_:
So if I prove that this isn't true we can all agree that there isn't an issue?
I don't understand why you're so deadset on making issues go away. Sticking your head in the sand along with the angry 14 year olds on reddit doesn't make reality any less awful.
And you can never "prove" anything because most of this is relatively subjective. You have no problem with what we see as clear misogyny.
That's why we argue, hopefully to the productive end of showing the other side something they hadn't thought of, and maybe learning something ourselves. "Make it all go awaaaaaay" and "Just stop reading One Piece, then" aren't valid responses.
Why was only saying that there's diversity with the female cast (and the same can be said for the male cast).
That are evil girls, good girls, weak, strong… I agree that many of them are hyper-sexualized, but I don't think their whole characterization revolves around that.
I don't know what are you guys expecting... "ugly" girls who are on the good side? Good girls who are tomboyish?
@Strеlоk_:
So if I prove that this isn't true we can all agree that there isn't an issue? Because this is cetrainly what you implied when you said that Sanji and maybe Usopp being smart is a valid excuse to make all the others "dumb brutes"?
Except most of the men aren't dumb brutes, and the ones who aren't dumb idiots aren't portrayed in a negative manner because of it. But here are a few more major characters who really aren't dumb brutes at all: Smoker, Jinbe, Iceberg, Whitebeard, Vegapunk (even if we haven't actually seen him ourselves yet, it's pretty clear he won't be), Neptune and the three princes, Ganfall, the toy soldier. ANd a reason that a lot of the men are dumb violent types is because THEY'RE FUCKING PIRATES
I don't know what are you guys expecting… "ugly" girls who are on the good side? Good girls who are tomboyish?
Naaahhh that's crazy talk.
Why was only saying that there's diversity with the female cast (and the same can be said for the male cast).
That are evil girls, good girls, weak, strong… I agree that many of them are hyper-sexualized, but I don't think their whole characterization revolves around that.I don't know what are you guys expecting... "ugly" girls who are on the good side? Good girls who are tomboyish?
See, you're looking at this completely black and white. As I've said, Oda is better than most other mangaka I've seen. That doesn't mean he isn't incredibly flawed. ANd yes, seeing more tomboyish characters would be nice. Or even just women who aren't either super ugly or super attractive. How about more women being portrayed as attractive without all looking super similar or having the hourglass figure and one face?
I think what people really want is a strong badass female with powers not related to hax or sexist powerups, in other words hand to hand strength or agility based combatant and with great will power and mental strength whom girls would like to look up as role models. Something which iI very much believe will be delivered by Oda in the future arcs.
@Strеlоk_:
How about the fact that half the men walk with their chest exposed half the time? Or that they are extremely muscular. Isn't this an oversexualisation.
I wish my english was good enough to explain this, but no, it's really not oversexualisation. It's a symbol of strength and manliness, and it's not specifically designed to appeal to girl. In facts, it's more a wish-fulfilment for boys. In a "Look how strong they are, don't you wish you were like that ?" kind of way. One Piece IS a shonen after all.
It's like saying Bayonetta is as sexualised as Kratos. He's not. Their designs have the exact same targets (mens), but with different goals in mind.
3DS Friend Code : 3222 - 6913 - 3431
The thing is, i get where they come from, actually. There are some misogynistic stuff in One Piece, but I also see a lot of strong female figures on the story. In fact, most of them were pretty badass. Bellemere? Olvia? Dadan? Otohime?
@Strеlоk_:
Most men aren't dumb brutes? Have you considered the main cast for example? And you have yet to answer my question. What kind of girls do you want in One Piece?
The only real dumb brutes on the crew are Luffy, Zoro, and MAYBE Franky. Chopper certainly isn't (oh look there's another one), Sanji is a pervert but not dumb or overly violent, Brook is a pervert and super goofy, but again neither dumb nor violent. Usopp isn't super smart, but he's not dumb, violent, or that perverted. Jinbe will be a strawhat at some point, and he's totally different. Also, another major example: Rayleigh
The thing is people expected Robin to be almost what I said in my previous post and her role is reduced to basically something different.
The thing is, i get where they come from, actually. There are some misogynistic stuff in One Piece, but I also see a lot of strong female figures on the story. In fact, most of them were pretty badass. Bellemere? Olvia? Dadan? Otohime?
Bellemere was great and probably one of Oda's best female characters. Olivia did nothing at all (You're talking about Robin's mom, right?), Dadan was decent, and Otohime was good, although still kind of fell prey to being the motherly, saintly female character far too much. But those are a few examples, and none are really that prominent compared to all the vastly higher number of bad examples
The point is not about the quantity or ratio but of the impact on storyline and screentime.
@Strеlоk_:
It's a symbol of charm and grace, and it's not specifically designed to appeal to boys but more like a wish-fulfilment for girls. "Look how sexy they are".
The thing is, the designs are there to cater for the shonen (young/teenage boy) audience. "oh man, this guy has cool muscles!" "oh sweet…tits!". I don't think Oda draws shirtless muscular men to make the girls swoon, he draws them because they're "manly".
In contrast, take a look at shojo manga: all the boys are bishonen and cutesy in appearance....in the most general sense, appealing to girls.
@Strеlоk_:
And you have YET to say what kind of girls you want in One Piece. And most men in the crew have been shown to be pretty stupid except for their specific field (cooking, reparing, etc.).
Except they haven't. In fact, most of the series smartest characters are men: Vegapunk, Beckman, Crocodile, Law, Rayleigh, Doflamingo, Kuro, Clover, Jinbe, hell even Chopper is pretty book smart. And most characters in One Piece are kind of dumb period. For all you're saying about men being dumb, the only three shining examples of really smart women I can think of are Nami, Kureha, and Robin. And again, PIRATES. It makes sense they'd be violent and not super smart because they are PIRATES. Pirates aren't exactly known for being polite or avoiding fights
Well, there are WAY more male characters then female, so there are less examples. I think they were prominent enough to make an impact on the overall story. I also don't think there are that many bad examples. Except if you're talking about they being always wearing "sexy" clothes, then I agree with you. I'm only arguing about their personalities.
@Strеlоk_:
How about the fact that half the men walk with their chest exposed half the time? Or that they are extremely muscular. Isn't this an oversexualisation.
That's still the male power fantasy. Come on, this is really basic stuff. Don't you even manga-section-gender-thread? I expected better.
@Strеlоk_:
So the fact that the main character is stupid is misandry then? Or another main character can't find his way on a straight line? Or that yet another main character loses his mind when he sees tits? Or that every male character is pretty much retarded in a way? If there are issues, there are issues for both genders.
1. The presence of problematic male characters doesn't invalidate the systematic problems of the entire female gender in the series, which you seem to be saying when you say "Arrrgh just stop talking about this because it annoys me."
2. There's still a huge imbalance. Each male you mentioned has a single, gag-based flaw, besides which, "getting lost" isn't a classic male stereotype, outside of "Why didn't Moses stop to ask for directions?" jokes. The problems with women are much more widespread, endemic, and rooted in thousands of years of history.
3. Want to argue that Shonen leads on the whole are terrible because they're usually gluttons who are battle geniuses but complete morons in all other cases? Sure. That's still a far cry from lolmisandry, and again, it's an easy role model for the target audience of boys 8-18.
4. Outdated gender roles on either side DO hurt everyone. Of course we're with you there. If nearly every OP male were a sex-driven musclehead who couldn't show his emotions, you'd start to have a case. EDIT: But as everyone is telling you now, that's not the case at all.
"ugly" girls who are on the good side? Good girls who are tomboyish?
What a novel idea that would be!
@Strеlоk_:
I wish my english was good enough to explain this, but no, it's really not oversexualisation. It's a symbol of charm and grace, and it's not specifically designed to appeal to boys but more like a wish-fulfilment for girls. "Look how sexy they are".
Sometimes I WISH that I had certain aspects of Nami or Robin's body, but first of all: It makes me feel like shit, and second of all: If you look at their whole bodies, they look like aliens. Their waists are smaller than each one of their breasts.
I'm only being defensive on Oda's part because… well, I read Fairy Tail (why? I don't know) and I see some pretty offensive stuff for women on that manga. I don't see the same in One Piece.
Well, there are WAY more male characters then female, so there are less examples. I think they were prominent enough to make an impact on the overall story. I also don't think there are that many bad examples. Except if you're talking about they being always wearing "sexy" clothes, then I agree with you. I'm only arguing about their personalities.
And the ratio of men to women is also a problem in and of itself. And think of characters like Hancock, whose character is being super infatuated with Luffy and who has the "love" DF power. Or how about Sadi? What about the number of women with DF powers that are either fetishistic, or otherwise stereotypically female
@Monkey:
It's particularly pissing me off though cuz Alina lives in a non-western country (basically) where gender roles are really awful, to the point that gay folk are treated like slime in ways that would make Japan blush.
And this dumbass libertarian comes in and dismisses the talk as plush western suburban liberalism.
Hey fuck you grunk.
I don't know what you're talking about (I hope you're just being sarcastic), and gay people suffering in Russia is a whole other issue related to religion, but gender roles here aren't awful, in fact it's quite opposite from Japan, nobody expects girls to get married and be stuck at kitchen with babies. I was never treated as a "girl" my whole life, I was always treated as a person.
I'm sure that there are issues that were left over from Soviet era, but our culture thinks otherwise: there are a lot of traditional Russian proverbs (legends, histories, fairy tales) that say that a true woman will "stop a horse on the run and walk into a burning house", basically meaning "a true woman is a badass woman". Not to mention we've had a whole set of really awesome Empresses, including Olga of Kiev who, to revenge her husband that got killed, buried alive the messengers of Drevlians and later burned down their whole city. Women are also associated with wisdom.
@Strеlоk_:
Actually you just assumed I meant that the men are dumb. There are also plenty of other smart women. Shakky, Otohime, Alvida, Hancock, Kokoro, among many others. And Chopper may be book smart, but he is pretty easy to fool.
Since when has Alvida been a smart woman?we don't really know about Shakky, and Hancock can be pretty dumb.
@Strеlоk_:
1. So one of them is simple presence and the other is systematic? What is the difference? There have been plenty of strong women, weak women, ugly women and pretty women.
2. What are the problems with women?
4. Pretty much every male in the crew is stupid outside of his given role.
Some men apparently do have trouble with navigation. You, for example, keep on missing the point, no matter how many directions you're given.
@Strеlоk_:
Actually you just assumed I meant that the men are dumb. There are also plenty of other smart women. Shakky, Otohime, Alvida, Hancock, Kokoro, among many others. And Chopper may be book smart, but he is pretty easy to fool.
Hancock wasn't particularly smart. Alvida wasn't either. Shakky I guess, but she also has done pretty much nothing as opposed to the smart men. Otohime was a moral symbol, which has nothing to do with being particularly smart. Kokoro was also never portrayed as particularly intelligent. And then there are examples like Camie and Califa who are super dumb women. And very few of the main men in One Piece are really that dumb. You have Luffy and Zoro. Maybe Franky, but that's kind of arguable. That's pretty much it in terms of incredibly present, important characters who are idiots. Yeah most of the men in One Piece are super goofy, but silly isn't the same as dumb. And the majority of One Piece's dumb male brute characters are PIRATES. Most of the important male characters outside of this role were never shown as unintelligent in the slightest
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no new information huh
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the same old discussion about evil Oda
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Strelok lol
leaves thread again
Happy Halloween, fellas
@Strеlоk_:
So now the problem is that there aren't enough smart women? I thought that it was that they are always pretty?
You're the one who brought up the notion of smart women and now you're complaining that someone responds to your examples! Are you a troll?
@Strеlоk_:
So now the problem is that there aren't enough smart women? I thought that it was that they are always pretty?
This has more to do with your inane claims of their being any form of men being treated badly. My point here was that saying men are portrayed as dumb (which they really aren't for the most part) doesn't work if you don't have clear examples of how women are generally portrayed as smarter… which they really aren't
