It's more of a matter of attention, than comprehension.
Berserk
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After seeing Robby's post, I feel kind of dumb not realizing it even after reading it for a second time.
I wonder what other things did I miss.
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I thought Judo loving Casca was pretty obvious on a first read
Indeed, it's hardly downplayed.
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I watched Berserk before I read it. It seemed like Judeau expressed a vague but very understated bitterness in some scenes when confronted with the whole Caska and Guts thing, but I wasn't sure how much of that was good nature, a reaction to Gut's departure, or an above-and-beyond concern for Caska. Obviously his last words were the nail in the coffin, but I'm with Robby. I thought it was subtle… enough.
On subsequent reads and watches it wasn't so much plain as day so much as there was no room for doubt. I liked that - in general - Berserk had that kind of subtlety in most of its characters and the concepts it explored.
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It seemed like Judeau expressed a vague but very understated bitterness in some scenes when confronted with the whole Caska and Guts thing, but I wasn't sure how much of that was good nature, a reaction to Gut's departure, or an above-and-beyond concern for Caska.
This sums up my thoughts perfectly, except specifically for the manga, not the anime. He always had a glance here or a look there that I couldn't quite figure out the meaning to. I knew he had express concern for Caska, and he respected Guts, so I figured it was some sort of brotherly love. It wasn't until the eclipse that I saw it as unrequited love. The relationship was always obvious, it's just the type of relationship that was unclear (to me). The recent re-read made it appear more obvious though, I agree on that.
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Judeau protecting Casca
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/berserk-volume-01.html?ch=Volume+13&page=31
http://view.thespectrum.net/series/berserk-volume-01.html?ch=Volume+13&page=32finaly he top her hehehe…
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Unless you get hit with a sledgehammer you don't see it eh?
Fair enough I guess.
I always thought it was blatantly obvious since there was at least like 3 scenes where Judaeu was just acting weird with her (and the obvious Eclipse scene).
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Personally Golden Age felt like the most complicated arc of Berserk because it wasn't emotionally straightforward. Things like revenge and anger and grief are pretty relate-able but trying to understand the intricate relationship between Guts, Griffith and the Hawks was a greater challenge.
It's like, Baldur's Gate had a superior plot and villain to Baldur's Gate II, but BGII's villain is more celebrated in part because he's a lot easier to understand.
Not to say Irenicus sucks, but he was wasn't nearly as vitriolic as Sarevok. The only villain I hated more than BG1 Sarevok is Demon Xavier.
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Baldur's Gate and Berserk in the same discussion? I'm in heaven.
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Maybe I used poor words in my post. There's a lot elements in Berserk that could have many meanings, and that there's parts in the story that makes you go "Huh?". When those parts happen I tend to try and think I'm just not getting it and there's special meaning behind it.
And fuck you, Aldrich. wasting his time
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Something I dont understand until now is
when Griffith use Caska and Guts's offspring to become the "messiah"so the "messiah" here is reincarnation of the godhand? the demon?
wtf is that?would it be two personality inside the new griffith? griffith and the unnamed baby? or they are the same person?
(although I believe they are different person)it's complicated …
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Maybe I used poor words in my post. There's a lot elements in Berserk that could have many meanings, and that there's parts in the story that makes you go "Huh?". When those parts happen I tend to try and think I'm just not getting it and there's special meaning behind it.
And fuck you, Aldrich. wasting his time
huff huff
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Something I dont understand until now is
when Griffith use Caska and Guts's offspring to become the "messiah"so the "messiah" here is reincarnation of the godhand? the demon?
wtf is that?would it be two personality inside the new griffith? griffith and the unnamed baby? or they are the same person?
(although I believe they are different person)it's complicated …
I don't think the baby was part of the overall plan the God Hand had when the mock eclipse started, this seemed like a choice made by the Egg Apostle. So I'm pretty sure Griffith and the Child are still two different people in one body, based on that and the battle at the Hill of swords when Griffith said he had nothing holding back from the past events, (or something like that), and when he (the Child) saved Casca.
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yea ..
looks like I can't called Griffith as a mot*fuer yet..
then, why the egg hatched as Griffith? not another godhand. is it because he was originaly human?
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The whole reason for the mock eclipse was for Femto to have a body that's able to appear in the real world. I'm pretty sure he became Griffith because that's who he formally was and it falls in with the whole 'Hawk of Light' prophecy that everyone dreams about. Also I don't think their can be another God Hand if their are already 5.
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it will be God Toe then ..
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There's absolutely no way for me to read this entire thread but coming from a person that isn't really interested in manga (just not into anime either) past One Piece, Berserk is the exception. The depth of the story is what makes the Manga the exception to what could have turned out to be an otherwise rather boilerplate action flick.
It's been a while since I've read the Manga, but the feeling I came away with was that Fate, in the form of an evil vastness we were shown briefly (and later redacted), twists and deforms all it touches.
Again, my personal uneducated take on all this so whatever!
What Griffith was at the start of the story's time line is merely a shadow of the being he was by the event of his rebirth. The, uh… Behelit, seems to be the conduit by which that mysterious Idea of Evil acts strongest, using it to reforge the man into the monster that he became. Zodd recognized the egg as power beyond his control, and promptly left the scene of his first meeting with Guts and Griffiths, knowing that the men were the Idea of Evil's personal property.
Another example could be the King's infatuation with his daughter, Princess Charlotte, leading to The Hawk's heinous year long dissection and torture. For crazy "perona is gonna join" level conspiracies, it could be theorized that the Behelit, which was surely hiding close by, acted again as the instrument Evil could twist Griffith even more, this time by corrupting the King.
Again, Griffith's entire hangup with Caska and Guts could be seen as the egg's influence on the man's fate, taking what might have been easily forgiven and turning into a feeling of betrayal and torment. Without that perversion, would Griffith actually have agreed to the ultimate sacrifice of his friends?
So by the time the Behelit showed up again to open the portal, the Idea of Evil's transformation of Griffith was complete, and the broken man's ascension began. That would go a long way as to why he molested Caska; as a corrupt shadow of the early man's will.
To sum it all up and "give too much away", we got to see the mysterious page where we meet the power behind the Godhand the Idea of Evil. It tells the newly reborn Femto to do as he wills; a hollow statement considering Femto is twisted in mind and action just as Fate wants.
There's obviously no right answer as to what the heck is really going on past what's literally drawn, but that's part of what makes Berserk so great imo.:wub:
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@Hyperkinetic:
Without that perversion, would Griffith actually have agreed to the ultimate sacrifice of his friends?
I bet he would.
it's because of his ambition.
in his dreams, there were only him."I never betray my dream" << he wants the castle. but inside the castle, there were no happy people or his band. it means he always see other as instruments, road he should build to create his path to the castle.
his definition about "friend" is not peoples who close to him or done everything for him as Guts does. but someone as equal as him. and his vission lead him to the torture for the whole year, and finaly sacrificing his band to subtitue them with the better one, consist of apostles and weird creatures which is much stronger than the original band of hawk before. -
Yeah, the whole baby and rebirth of Griffith has to be one of the most confusing parts, I think anyways. But I have a feeling that part of the story isn't done yet, what with the appearence of that one little boy which had more than a "wink wink nudge nudge" suggesting it's in some way Guts and Casca's child.
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yea ..
looks like I can't called Griffith as a mot*fuer yet..
then, why the egg hatched as Griffith? not another godhand. is it because he was originaly human?
All the Godhands were originally human.
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The most confusing part for me in the series (or at least the one I'm thinking of right now), was when Griffith created Falconia and Fantasia happened. Specifically, the 4 pages that showed the God hand (or parts of them). Did this mean they too came to the world like Griffith did? This page especially confuses me; I feel like it's a surreal art painting from a museum that the artist wanted interpretation on…
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The most confusing part for me in the series (or at least the one I'm thinking of right now), was when Griffith created Falconia and Fantasia happened. Specifically, the 4 pages that showed the God hand (or parts of them). Did this mean they too came to the world like Griffith did? This page especially confuses me; I feel like it's a surreal art painting from a museum that the artist wanted interpretation on…
Yes, they did come into the real world like Griffith. As I understand it, he merged the real world with the astral(?) realm. As to the page you linked, it is a tribute to this painting by Hieronymus Bosch (the right panel).
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The most confusing part for me in the series (or at least the one I'm thinking of right now), was when Griffith created Falconia and Fantasia happened. Specifically, the 4 pages that showed the God hand (or parts of them). Did this mean they too came to the world like Griffith did? This page especially confuses me; I feel like it's a surreal art painting from a museum that the artist wanted interpretation on…
That page is definitely based on an existing painting ( although I don't know it's name,artist,..^^).
I kinda thought of the emperor in it's treeform as beeing powerful and not really concious,.. which allowed Griffith to defeat him (easier?) and use his power to shape his ..dream.
As everyone from hell wants to get to the real world, it is kinda in their interest to bring the world closer to realm of imagination?/hell?. I think it is pretty much translated as Odd filling the world, or as the myths and legends coming alive but I am not decided if it was only the "hellish" myths or the nicer ones (the page with the elf).
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The most confusing part for me in the series (or at least the one I'm thinking of right now), was when Griffith created Falconia and Fantasia happened. Specifically, the 4 pages that showed the God hand (or parts of them). Did this mean they too came to the world like Griffith did? This page especially confuses me; I feel like it's a surreal art painting from a museum that the artist wanted interpretation on…
holy black on a popo I did not notice that XD
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BTW, one question: the Apostles need to feast on sacrifices every "x" time? Does this mean that they "eat humans", or only sacrifices? If there are no sacrifices made in a while, they feel the urge to eat humans or they don't need it at all?
Because humans working together with Apostles looked cool and all but, won't the humans end up being eaten by the Apostles?
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I really want to see the fight against Roshine animated. Especially the part after she skewers Guts .
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Maybe I used poor words in my post. There's a lot elements in Berserk that could have many meanings, and that there's parts in the story that makes you go "Huh?". When those parts happen I tend to try and think I'm just not getting it and there's special meaning behind it.
And fuck you, Aldrich. wasting his time
Causa… Casuality? What's this are they talking about dress code it makes no sense
Oh I love the way Miura drew this tentacle wrapping around Casca's leg just lovely umffghlblughlghb wipes sweat off greasy forehead, takes notes
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BTW, one question: the Apostles need to feast on sacrifices every "x" time? Does this mean that they "eat humans", or only sacrifices? If there are no sacrifices made in a while, they feel the urge to eat humans or they don't need it at all?
Because humans working together with Apostles looked cool and all but, won't the humans end up being eaten by the Apostles?
I see apostles no different than odinary monster. they follow someone beyond their power. that's why Zodd following Griffith, even become his mount
but I believe apostles wont die on starving. -
Yes, they did come into the real world like Griffith. As I understand it, he merged the real world with the astral(?) realm. As to the page you linked, it is a tribute to this painting by Hieronymus Bosch (the right panel).
I don't think the full Astral World was merged. I think just the Interstice was. Which is the world where mythical monsters and animals live. The Godhands exist (fully) on a much deeper plane.
They are more tangible then before, but the plane they fully exist on is not yet merged. At least I'm pretty fucking sure it isn't.
@kouch:
BTW, one question: the Apostles need to feast on sacrifices every "x" time? Does this mean that they "eat humans", or only sacrifices? If there are no sacrifices made in a while, they feel the urge to eat humans or they don't need it at all?
Because humans working together with Apostles looked cool and all but, won't the humans end up being eaten by the Apostles?
Apostles don't need to do shit (well aside from follow Griffith around now). They can probably survive without eating even.
I think you're confused because of The Count attempting a second sacrifice, but he did that because he was dying due to well….Gutts cutting his ass up.
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Apostles eat humans during and between Eclipses because they can
Zodd for ex clearly had no interest in the Eclipse because he just wants to fight worthy opponents, while your run of the mill apostle is just a hedonistic monster that rapes and eats humans for pleasure
I doubt the likes of Locus or Grunbeld run around eating children either
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why they would rape human female?
I imagine that just like when I saw a desperate horny guy rape a goat or dog for pleasure … it's gross...
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why they would rape human female?
I imagine that just like when I saw a desperate horny guy rape a goat or dog for pleasure … it's gross...
they were originally human so they still keep their human desires.
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ic ..
what about trolls?
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ic ..
what about trolls?
That's more debatable, it depends on their origin. Such hasn't been explained yet, but I think it was mentioned some of the monsters in Interstice came from nightmares/dreams. So, the trolls would be what humans of the era would fear - monsters that exploit humans in gruesome and horrific ways.
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Apostle means messenger in Greek, doesn't it? I wonder, what kind of message does Miura's ones bring.
monsters that exploit humans in gruesome and horrific ways.
Basically, their feodal lords?
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Causa… Casuality? What's this are they talking about dress code it makes no sense
Oh I love the way Miura drew this tentacle wrapping around Casca's leg just lovely umffghlblughlghb wipes sweat off greasy forehead, takes notes
Just to clarify, I wasn't insulted by your comments about my crappy erotica (which is admitably crappy), but by the fact you think I only read Berserk cause it has "certain scenes" in it (I wasn't even drawing that shit when I started Berserk). If that was the case, I'd only read porn doujins or some shit.
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while reading your post, suddenly a question pop-up in my head..
ever see female trolls?
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No, and don't wish that on us.
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haha .. of course.
But I mean is maybe trolls rape human female because there were no female trolls
but not sure if female troll ever exist. so I'm asking it -
ic ..
what about trolls?
To reproduce, they used human females merely for reproduction. They captured fertile females to their cave, raped and impregnated them and then women were forcibly giving birth of new trolls rapidly.
There are alot of this kind of details in arcs and panels, Miura's artwork is most highly detailed of any mangas I have ever seen.
Its easy to skim through Berserker just without focusing much about background and artwork and miss ton of stuff. Berserk is so insanely well drawn and having such a rich detail so it should not be treated like a normal weekly shonen chapters that can be skimmed but instead it should be read with time and detail.
Also because long intervals of chapters its quite easy to forgot small details of previous chapters so I recommend letting it bunch up and reading it in larger bulks.
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@JERK:
I don't think the full Astral World was merged. I think just the Interstice was. Which is the world where mythical monsters and animals live. The Godhands exist (fully) on a much deeper plane.
They are more tangible then before, but the plane they fully exist on is not yet merged. At least I'm pretty fucking sure it isn't.
Perhaps you are right. After a bit of searching, I found this. Not sure how correct it is though.
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Perhaps you are right. After a bit of searching, I found this. Not sure how correct it is though.
And then you say it's not complicated. Not at all.
Now I'm 100% sure I NEED to re-read everything again.
And I know Apostles won't die of starvation if they cannot feast on sacrifices, it's just weird that they looked anxious during the Eclipse for what they had in front of them (more than a hundred humans to eat), like if they were REALLY hungry. But I guess it was part of the ritual, and they got all pumped up.
Funny how they now have become a force of righteousness in the eyes of humans, while Gutts is darkness itself.
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i've been meaning to re-read berserk again.
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Apostle means messenger in Greek, doesn't it? I wonder, what kind of message does Miura's ones bring.
I think they're named after Jesus's apostles.
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I finally started reading Berserk, since I found out that I never read Berserk. My life was worth much less before.
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How the hell did a metalhead anime fan get to Berserk so late???
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I've lived a sheltered life, man.
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Preview for next episode, from volume 35:
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! Serpico standing in front of the group again…. I seriously hope if there's any killings involved it would only involve those three nameless men that Roderick brought. Even that would be enough to make Guts feel guilty as hell.
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better late than never.
my only regret is reading the entire series in the span of a couple days. i should have spread it out and saved myself some chapters.