That point about Aspiration is pretty good, I didn't even think of it meaning breathing too. I'm still going for Presence, though.
Is Haki a Technique? Should it be Translated?
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Just don't translate it >_> jeez… is it too much for the scanlation-getters to just google haki or something? If you're smart enough to find a scanlation, you're smart enough to google something. It takes like what? 2 seconds to google, 2 minutes to find out? I don't get how this can be an issue at all.
The fact of the matter is, haki contains the word "ki", which has historical, cultural, AND manga historical meaning to it. Judging by the way it's used in the manga so far, Oda MEANT for the pun to exist. Does Ambition have that pun in it? No it does not. Is Haki an important phrase in this manga? YES IT IS.
It doesn't matter if haki COULD translate into Ambition (for the record, it is the CLOSEST translation, not the EXACT translation, Rin), the very complexity that Oda put into the phrase "haki" (it's a phrase, not a word) prevents direct translation. From the word by word translation of "Dominant Air/Aura" to the reference to Ki to the meaning as a whole to "Ambition/Leadership/Willpower/etc", it hints at many many things and the whole package itself is a piece of art.
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When you place ambition in a translator or look it up in word reference or any form of English-Japanese converter, the word that comes up is yabou.
You went the wrong way. Did you do the same for your "aspiration" suggestion? Anyway, it's not that simple. Aspiration is synonymous of ambition, so it certainly fits the definition, but which is more appropriate? Almost all of the common translations (and thus, translators) out there have chosen to use 'ambition', and the fact that ambition seems to be the most direct single word translation that any dictionary I have access to pulls up, I don't see why another word is necessary…?
I like the last because it still means ambition but gives it an additional meaning which is that it is tied to a strong inspiration of air, thus being somewhat connected to the vital energy as well as involving the "ki" part of haki.
What are you saying here? "Aspiration" means, basically, "to breath". Are you suggesting that breathing gives you energy, and therefore "energy" is connected to "breathing" is connected to "aspiration"…? Were you aware that a synonym and partial definition of 'ambition' is energy? No stringing of meanings required. Confusion seems to be, so far, intended on Oda's part. Confusion between real word (and usage) and fictional term (and ability). 'Aspiration' adds confusion, but in the wrong way. Aspiration is directed more at the end result: a goal, a desire. Ambition isn't limited to that, and includes the willingness and energy to do what needs to be done to acquire said goals or desires. So I think the whole "additional meaning" thing is, again, the wrong way around.
@Kairouseki:
The King's Presence? The Presence of a King? Something like that maybe?
Without breaking down the kanji attached, this is the most literal translation, and also seems to fit the best:
Supreme King's Color
Just don't translate it >_> jeez… is it too much for the scanlation-getters to just google haki or something? If you're smart enough to find a scanlation, you're smart enough to google something. It takes like what? 2 seconds to google, 2 minutes to find out? I don't get how this can be an issue at all.
I just want you to know that this is the worst argument you could ever present on this matter. Ever. It's absolutely horrible. The rest of your post has errors, but this…
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I want tyrant's presence.
I'm looking forward to seeing why Oda used a word with warlike connotations.
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Reading through this thread makes me glad all, well the majority of you have no say in any kind of translation process.
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"Kingbition" has already been decided on for all scanlations. This thread is just for fun, now.
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Honestly after much thought there admittedly isn't really any good reason to not translate haki into ambition, it just sounds lame and makes it seem that if you're in the OP world and want something bad enough that you'll gain "ambition" (the power). I just want to know what determines who can use ambition, or can anyone develop it?
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Groovy, if you quote someone's post at the same time it gets deleted you end up with nothing.
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People going around blasting their "ambition" at people reminds me of that one D-grayman doujin where the akuma said lenalee "has lost her Innocence"… >_>
Edit: Darkstorm, you meant my post?
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"Kingbition" has already been decided on for all scanlations. This thread is just for fun, now.
I always preferred "Tyrannical presence", or "Lord Zedd Mojo".
People going around throwing their "ambition" at people reminds me of that one D-grayman doujin where the akuma said lenalee "has lost her Innocence"… >_>
Ambition does some rather odd, but then Japanese readers wonder what oda means by ambition. Why should english readers wonder what he means by some random untranslated word?
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People going around throwing their "ambition" at people reminds me of that one D-grayman doujin where the akuma said lenalee "has lost her Innocence"… >_>
It sounds lame but it is what it is. Just better not be something where if you want to hit a logia bad enough your "ambition" will form and let you do it.
@Darkstorm
It's not the meaning of the word=ambition that's the issue, it's that when you translate it to ambition it instantly becomes 10x lamer. The japanese hear and read haki, we'll read and and hear "ambition". -
Ambition does some rather odd, but then Japanese readers wonder what oda means by ambition. Why should english readers wonder what he means by some random untranslated word?
Because translating it makes it equally as confusing (lot of the puns are gone, etc etc, makes Oda's word choosing seem bad)
It's like translating jokes :/ Doesn't always work. In this case, it does not work. It's like what happened with Hokuto no Ken during the translation process.
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And what precisely do you think is being lost here?
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The debatable reference to Ki is the biggest bit. Although a lot of people here don't want to believe that Oda's refering to Ki because of what happened with Dragonball, in Jap it's there. In English, "ambition" would leave that "possibility" out completely.
There's also the badass feeling about the phrase Haki, as the first word can mean tyrant/dominant/etc. Ambition gives off no such feeling.
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lot of the puns are gone, etc etc, makes Oda's word choosing seem bad
Wait, what?? Translating it would retain the play on words. Not translating it would only benefit a (potential) fictional ability, by giving it a unique name would wouldn't confuse with other things. It creates way more problems than it solves. I'm ashamed to admit I was such an advocate for keeping it untranslated in the past; if only someone had presented a good argument back then. -___-;
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Wait, what?? Translating it would retain the play on words. Not translating it would only benefit a (potential) fictional ability, by giving it a unique name would wouldn't confuse with other things. It creates way more problems than it solves. I'm ashamed to admit I was such an advocate for keeping it untranslated in the past; if only someone had presented a good argument back then. -___-;
How does that logic work? "Translating it would retain the play on words". What part of "ambition" retains that?
The fact is that Oda named it "Haki", which "hints" at certain other things besides "ambition". Translating it so directly takes out all the "hinting" that I'm sure Oda did it for a reason.
Kingbition .
That got a laugh out of me.
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It sounds lame but it is what it is. Just better not be something where if you want to hit a logia bad enough your "ambition" will form and let you do it.
@Darkstorm
It's not the meaning of the word=ambition that's the issue, it's that when you translate it to ambition it instantly becomes 10x lamer. The japanese hear and read haki, we'll read and and hear "ambition".translating is LAAAAMME we should all just stop entirely
everyone, chopchop, learn some Japanese in two hours so's you can finally read them raws
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Wait, what?? Translating it would retain the play on words. Not translating it would only benefit a (potential) fictional ability, by giving it a unique name would wouldn't confuse with other things. It creates way more problems than it solves. I'm ashamed to admit I was such an advocate for keeping it untranslated in the past; if only someone had presented a good argument back then. -___-;
You're here now brenda, and that's all that counts.
But yeah, if it ever comes up that it talks about some form of ki, you just talk about the "Strength of his/her ambition" or whatnot". And Silver, untranslated words are hardly "badass" when the reader doesn't even know what it means.
@Darkstorm
It's not the meaning of the word=ambition that's the issue, it's that when you translate it to ambition it instantly becomes 10x lamer. The japanese hear and read haki, we'll read and and hear "ambition".What the hell….What the hell....
You sound like thousand luffy batter chan.
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Wait, what?? Translating it would retain the play on words. Not translating it would only benefit a (potential) fictional ability, by giving it a unique name would wouldn't confuse with other things. It creates way more problems than it solves. I'm ashamed to admit I was such an advocate for keeping it untranslated in the past; if only someone had presented a good argument back then. -___-;
His entire issue like everyone else who wants it as just haki is that ambition sounds lame /endof. Seriously, this thread is a facade for reasons to back that thought up. I'm not gonna lie, it just sounds lame. Just like kamehameha is lame translated.
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And Silver, untranslated words are hardly "badass" when the reader doesn't even know what it means.
I guess English readers are destined to read the gimp version of One Piece then. Nevermind, forget my arguments earlier, I forgot how lame direct translations are by nature.
Yeah Ambition's good. Tekkai should be Metal Chunk and Shigan should be Finger Gun.
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DARTSTRWOOOMM YOU hAVE TO CHANGE YER NAME
yamiarashi~! <333
And when this manga closes out, and Luffy's arm stretches back to deliver that last punch, I wanna feel the crunch of the dream coming true.
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@dirt:
DARTSTRWOOOMM YOU hAVE TO CHANGE YER NAME
yamiarashi~! <333
SO COOOOLZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was wrong all these years.
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It's not the meaning of the word=ambition that's the issue, it's that when you translate it to ambition it instantly becomes 10x lamer. The japanese hear and read haki, we'll read and and hear "ambition".
I just translate ambition to haki in my head whenever I hear/read it. I'm feeling pretty hakitious today.
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I guess English readers are destined to read the gimp version of One Piece then. Nevermind, forget my arguments earlier, I forgot how lame direct translations are by nature.
Yeah Ambition's good. Tekkai should be Metal Chunk and Shigan should be Finger Gun.
Yes it's better to just admit it, because really any argument to say why it shouldn't be translated is just doomed. Really the only argument is that it sounds terrible as ambition. My ears will bleed when I hear this dubbed.
@Darkstorm
I didn't mean to sound like batter (2nd gear vs gear 2nd rofl) I'm just saying that ambition means the same as haki but our english word for that meaning sounds lame utilised this way. -
I just translate ambition to haki in my head whenever I hear/read it. I'm feeling pretty hakitious today.
Wouldn't it be hakus? Since Ambition -> ambitio - us.
Yes it's better to just admit it, because really any argument to say why it shouldn't be translated is just doomed. Really the only argument is that it sounds terrible as ambition. My ears will bleed when I hear this dubbed.
Some random pirate: Holy cow he has King's Ambition. I only have normal Ambition.
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I always preferred "Tyrannical presence", or "Lord Zedd Mojo".
Ambition does some rather odd, but then Japanese readers wonder what oda means by ambition. Why should english readers wonder what he means by some random untranslated word?
I've gotten used to ignorant people abusing the English language. They're using "Ambition" as a drop in replacement, when the fact is, if they're hellbent on translating a Japanese word that translates into 3 or 4 different English words depending on the context, the least they could do is take a second and figure out how it's supposed to be used. I don't care if people want to make idiots of themselves, we all "get it" and we can take the time to laugh at you, but dropping "Ambition" everywhere is kind of like the RenFair reject who gets laughed out because he refuses to use any term for magic other than "Sorcery". And he has to make sure that it's capitalized or said with a great deal of accent because he believes it's super-special.
Sometimes, just plain "magic" works fine. Just like plain "will" or "willpower" works too. But then they get into the whole "will of D" thing, and they're completely scared of that whole thing, so they look for a word that will let them slightly dance around it, even if it makes them sound as stupid as that aforementioned RenFair reject.
Anyway, I honestly don't care if they translate it or leave it untranslated. You can provide the translation with the old "top of the screen translation comment" deal if you just want a simple drop in replacement that won't make me laugh at you. That's been good enough for a lot of fansubbers for decades…they still don't all translate "kidou" in Bleach, which is even more vague than "haki", or "jitsu" inconsistently in Naruto. Or, you can take one English word, drop it in everywhere (including in sentences where it just doesn't flow) and make me laugh at you. I don't care either way. If you don't want people laughing at you and thinking you're actually Gollum from The Hobbit, you could write down three or four words and try each one to see which flows best. Or you could just give in and use the term "will/willpower" to describe it, since it's already canon and it's flexible enough to work anywhere, and ignore the theorists who get all goobery over "will of D" stuff.
When something doesn't sound right, it usually isn't right in English. If it flows strangely, 99% of the time it's because you're doing something wrong. Of all the advice I've been given in all my writing courses back in college, that is easily the best.
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Who cares what's "right"? People wouldn't get the joke if I said hakus. This must be what it looks like when a joke gets kicked in the testicles.
Me: 1, Urouge's joke's testicles: 0
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I find it kinda funny that all the pro "ambition" people didn't call out the haki people for just not wanting it translated because it sounds wimpy/lame. In fact if you read a lot of the suggested translations they sound like buzzwords made to just equate ambition but sound cool at the same time, like willforce, is that even a word? Another from earlier is ir of dominance, it just sounds better than ambition although it strays from the pun that Oda is using. Well atleast the english equivalent of haki isn't something like toejam.
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Be quiet Haxeye, or they might knock you out with their ambition.
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Be quiet Haxeye, or they might knock you out with their ambition.
That's ok, I'll counter with my turtle destruction wave :ninja:.
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I find it kinda funny that all the pro "ambition" people didn't call out the haki people for just not wanting it translated because it sounds wimpy/lame.
What's to argue? To most English readers, "Haki" sounds like "Hockey". How can it get any dumber in context? In three cases out of five*, its usage (in the series) would fit perfectly without confusion. As a fictional ability, it might be confusing or sound strange to some, but I don't think "haki" is used exactly in that way in Japanese either, so it might sound strange to some of them. As in, using "haki" to refer to a mystical ability or power instead of an atmosphere, vibe, or will. Up until Saboady Archipelago, or arguably Shanks' meeting with Whitey, nobody even realized or discussed the possibility of some mystical power existing, despite the word having been used in Jaya and then on Whitey's ship. I don't doubt that when Japanese readers see "haki" anywhere they think, "dominating presence or atmosphere; intimidating willpower". That is 'ambition' though, just with the added spiritual significance the eastern culture adds into it.
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What's to argue? To most English readers, "Haki" sounds like "Hockey". How can it get any dumber in context? In three cases of its use in the series, "ambition" would fit perfectly without confusion. As a fictional ability, it might be confusing or sound strange to some, but I don't think "haki" is used exactly in that way in Japanese either, so it might sound strange to some of them. As in, using "haki" to refer to a mystical ability or power instead of an atmosphere, vibe, or will. Up until Saboady Archipelago, or arguably Shanks' meeting with Whitey, nobody even realized or discussed the possibility of some mystical power existing, despite the word having been used in Jaya and then on Whitey's ship. I don't doubt that when Japanese readers see "haki" anywhere they think, "dominating prescence or atmosphere; intimidating willpower". That is 'ambition' though, just with the added spiritual significance the eastern culture adds into it.
Actually I never thought to even think of haki with hockey just as in DB I never thought actively of ki and a key to open doors with. It's just that here ambition doesn't carry that inherent intimidation factor in it's meaning, here ambition just implies that you want something in the future, usually a position or station higher than your current level. Haki carries this implication of badassery and strength of spirit that can overpower others, while ambition doesn't carry that inherent meaning, like if I say someone has ambitious eyes most would probably assume that said person is up to something cloak and dagger style like Cassius towards Caesar not that the person is a beast with immense spirit/presence. The lack of this added inherent meaning is what makes haki when translated to ambition seem so lame, like if I just want to be PK really bad I'll gain power, it just takes all the special rareness from haki.
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Actually I never thought to even think of haki with hockey just as in DB I never thought ki and key to open doors with.
So if you walk up to someone at school and say, "that guy has enourmous ki", they won't think you just say "key"? Excluding anime nerds who have seen Dragon Ball.
It's just that here ambition doesn't carry that inherent intimidation factor in it's meaning, here ambition just implies that you want something in the future, usually a position or station higher than your current level.
Ambition has deeper meaning than simply "wanting something in the future". As I mentioned earlier, it is also the willingness and energy to achieve whatever it is you want. Anyway, the problem isn't the terms, but the culture. There is a large cultural difference between the east and the west; the east being largely spiritual, and the west being largely material. This is primarily where the words vary the most, and it isn't something you can just up and transfer over. English grammar doesn't work like Japanese grammar does, so there are hundreds of words that can run into these types of problems. You can note it, and should, but that's about as far as it goes I think. If "haki" didn't mean "ambition", it wouldn't be used in just about every Japanese-English dictionary as the definition, as well as the majority of translations for One Piece out there. So yeah, everything else should go into translation notes.
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So if you walk up to someone at school and say, "that guy has enourmous ki", they won't think you just say "key"? Excluding anime nerds who have seen Dragon Ball.
I probably wouldn't ever overtly reference anything I had heard only from anime/manga not like saying "that guy has huge ambition", sounds any better, sounds like a euphemism.
@brennen.exe:Ambition has deeper meaning than simply "wanting something in the future". As I mentioned earlier, it is also the willingness and energy to achieve whatever it is you want. Anyway, the problem isn't the terms, but the culture. There is a large cultural difference between the east and the west; the east being largely spiritual, and the west being largely material. This is primarily where the words vary the most, and it isn't something you can just up and transfer over. English grammar doesn't work like Japanese grammar does, so there are hundreds of words that can run into these types of problems. You can note it, and should, but that's about as far as it goes I think. If "haki" didn't mean "ambition", it wouldn't be used in just about every Japanese-English dictionary as the definition, as well as the majority of translations for One Piece out there. So yeah, everything else should go into translation notes.
Ambition only implies wanting something bad and actually trying to achieve it, however you can be a weakling who fails everytime but still be ambitious, whereas haki seems to imply someone having that x factor of spirit to actually be powerful and achieve what they want, this presence/air of dominance isn't a prerequisite to being ambitious in english. And remember dictionaries are mostly for denotation not connotation.
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Although a lot of people here don't want to believe that Oda's refering to Ki because of what happened with Dragonball, in Jap it's there. In English, "ambition" would leave that "possibility" out completely.
Knowing Japanese, and how to use the kanji 気, I took a stroll through Volume 33 of DBZ, and I found this kanji used a total of 20 times.
Now before you pat yourself on the back, half of those instances were in no way referring to the ki as you think it is. Two of those 10 were in words - much like 覇気 is a word. The other 8 are the ones that are phrases that can mean anything from a form of "to try" to "to be pleased with".
@silvers:There's also the badass feeling about the phrase Haki, as the first word can mean tyrant/dominant/etc. Ambition gives off no such feeling.
It is not a phrase. It is a word. And it means ambition.
@HaxeyeMihawk:Ambition only implies wanting something bad and actually trying to achieve it, however you can be a weakling who fails everytime but still be ambitious, whereas haki seems imply someone having that x factor of spirit to actually be powerful and achieve what they want, this presence/air of dominance isn't a prerequisite to being ambitious in english. And remember dictionaries are mostly for denotation not connotation.
am⋅bi⋅tion
–noun
- an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment: T_oo much ambition caused him to be disliked by his colleagues._
- the object, state, or result desired or sought after: The crown was his ambition.
- desire for work or activity; energy: I awoke feeling tired and utterly lacking in ambition.
Oh, hey.
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wait wait wait
@silvers:There's also the badass feeling about the phrase Haki, as the first word can mean tyrant/dominant/etc.
you think haki is a phrase?
get out right now
And when this manga closes out, and Luffy's arm stretches back to deliver that last punch, I wanna feel the crunch of the dream coming true.
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@Monkey:
Knowing Japanese, and how to use the kanji ?, I took a stroll through Volume 33 of DBZ, and I found this kanji used a total of 20 times.
Now before you pat yourself on the back, half of those instances were in no way referring to the ki as you think it is. Two of those 10 were in words - much like ?? is a word. The other 8 are the ones that are phrases that can mean anything from a form of "to try" to "to be pleased with".
It is not a phrase. It is a word. And it means ambition.
am?bi?tion
–noun
- an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth, and the willingness to strive for its attainment: T_oo much ambition caused him to be disliked by his colleagues._
- the object, state, or result desired or sought after: The crown was his ambition.
- desire for work or activity; energy: I awoke feeling tired and utterly lacking in ambition.
Oh, hey.
Energy as in feeling like doing something or TRYING to achieve it as I said, nice try. Now counter the rest of what I said, do you have a 4th or 5th numbered definition for that? lol.
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that x factor of spirit to actually be powerful and achieve what they want
What does this even mean? I need to you explain this more, because it really sounds like you are forcing your interpretation of a loose concept from an eastern culture into the definition of a word.
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Some people in here (I think it was silver first) keep referencing that since the Rokushiki powers don't get translated neither should Haki. Now, the Rokushiki powers would work perfectly fine translated.
Soru - Shave or Slice
Tekkai - Could be Iron Mass, though I would prefer Iron Wall or something like that.
Geppou - Moon Step or Moon Jump
Shigan - Finger Gun
Kami-e - Probably the hardest but Fluttering Paper (might be too long) could work. Just paper could work too.
Rokuougan - Gun of Six KingsAs for Rokushiki itself just use Six Powers.
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Energy as in feeling like doing something or TRYING to achieve it as I said, nice try. Now counter the rest of what I said, do you have a 4th or 5th numbered definition for that? lol.
There is no 4th or 5th. But all right.
@HaxeyeMihawk:whereas haki seems to imply someone having that x factor of spirit to actually be powerful and achieve what they want, this presence/air of dominance isn't a prerequisite to being ambitious in english. And remember dictionaries are mostly for denotation not connotation.
This is just you throwing meanings (connotations) all over haki that were never there in the beginning, and it makes it sorely obvious that you have little to no knowledge in Japanese. There is no connotation to this word. 覇気 is simply a word with the kanji, 気, in it.
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What does this even mean? I need to you explain this more, because it really sounds like you are forcing your interpretation of a loose concept from an eastern culture into the definition of a word.
Like how if you were to see a 6 ft 5 300 lbs guy you could be intimidated by them without them even looking at you or acknowledging you, that dominating presence from what others have said is related to haki but in english ambition doesn't carry this aspect, like I said you can be a weakling who fails everytime for your dream but as long as you keep trying and still want it by definition you're ambitious.
@Monkey D. Nami others disagree with you like that guy who made that post that Urouge quoted.
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Haxeye is basically quoting something that silvers posted. Monkey D Nami, you're basically saying the complete opposite of that source. He said that Haki has an incredibly deep meaning to people from Asia and you're basically refuting this. It's getting a little confusing.
